Spell Pierce always helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by mans0011
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Spell Pierce always helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by mans0011
Having been running Spell Pierce main for a few weeks now(with no Zoo to worry about) I have to say it has been pretty useful in a lot of matchups other than just combo.
Must be nice... Do you just have an underdeveloped meta or something, or what exactly is keeping all the Zoo decks down?Quote:
Originally Posted by gravemind123
The only person who has Zoo finished is me, at least at the moment, I think the people who it fits the playstyle of don't have the money and the people who have the money for it don't like the style of Zoo. As far as development, the budget players play either Merfolk or Dredge(although they are starting to get better cards and make more decks) and the other people run a huge array of things, but none of them built Zoo.Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght
The current list I play is very tuned to beat combo and control as I see more of that than aggro, but here it is if anyone is interested
13 Island
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Wake Thrasher
2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
I have a very good matchup against combo with this list, and also do pretty well against control after swapping Jitte/Echoing Truth slots for Kira maindeck. I usually have some graveyard hate in the sideboard to use against dredge and some Echoing Truth to deal with things like Humility, Ghostly Prison, Chalice, etc...
I have tried cutting Standstill, but in my metagame it is just the wrong choice, it is very good against TES and control strategies and I can board it out against decks it isn't quite as good at, like the mirror match.
Also, has anyone else tested out Ravenous Trap against Dredge? I think it is my favorite piece of hate against them, it has won me more games than Relic or Crypt have.
standstill has always worked perfectly for me. I think 3 is the perfect number, because i dont want to see it more than once, since if i see it once and i'm boarded nicely, i'll drop it, otherwise pitches to FoW. I always side em out against mirror, vial goblins, and UW Tempo / D&T builds, siding in the second jitte and maybe 1-2 bouncers.Quote:
Originally Posted by mans0011
Kira + Jitte has been discussed a lot, i think that althought not very synergystic its not a good reason to cut Jitte. Jitte wins every games i menage to resolve one. I mean, if we can't race our opponent by turn 4-5, and something is going wrong, we always got jitte to deal with mid/late game situations, and in mid/late game ( i mean by turn 6+) you'll always (90% of the time) hit the 4th mana to drop and equip. Now that we have coralhelm, wich is the best to carry jitte over enemy lines, i think it's just stupid not to run 2 between MD/SB Imho.
Maybe we should only go for a very aggro clock, counter their vial through Fow, Pierce is a nice addition, Daze is almost useless as everybody on the draw would cast t1 vial against us...and then bounce their SoFaI to clear a blocker. Win by turn 4/5. I mean, it IS possible, but very, very difficult to accomplish. You dont always get godhand...i'm looking for something more focused against these kind of decks, something that would be a pain in the ass just like Firespout. And keep in mind that if we dont counter their first vial, drawing all those Pierce mid game is useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru3z3rox
As I am planning to play in some upcoming tournaments in my area I was tooling around with a fish build with folks I commonly test with and was coming here to get some more advice.
One big question I have is how generally people sideboard for differing match ups, mainly things like Zoo, NO bant, and faeries.
From testing I am less inspired by Mutavault a lot of the time. Goblins is very rare in our meta as well.
The list I was looking at is as follows:
Lands - 20
8 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Plains
Spells and artifacts - 16
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
Creatures - 24
4 Curse Catcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm commander
4 Merrow Reejery
2 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
2 Merfolk Sovereign
Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Propaganda
3 Back to Basics
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Other cards, possibly counter magic?
I think you have three options for the 3 open sideboard slots: BEB/Hydroblast, Dispel, and Pithing Needle. Each are useful in different places:Quote:
Originally Posted by Boots
BEB/Hydroblast stop burn spells and can get rid of problem cards like Grim Lavamancer, but they are extremely narrow outside of that role. You're not really afraid of Firespout because of how many lords you run, and Kira gives you partial protection from burn. Unless there's tons of burn in your meta, these are probably not that great.
Dispel stops most burn, targeted removal like Swords, and other random cards (Entomb, Ad Nauseam, Enlightened Tutor, other counters), but is also kind of narrow. It may be better than Daze in matchups where you don't want to set yourself back on lands (New Horizons, for example).
Needle is just a random utility card that's good to have.
I kind of disagree with how you minimize the effectiveness of Hydroblast. Granted it's a little narrow, because red just takes up its proportionate chunk of the metagame (maybe a little less than 1/5 actually), but all the cards you mentioned are a huge problem for us. To get around Firespout, we need no less than three lords on the table (putting each of them at 4 toughness). Grim Lavamancer almost singlehandedly beats this deck. Lightning Bolt on a lord is usually a huge pain in the ass. Etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Granted, it's a somewhat narrow piece of hate, but in an unknown meta, IMO, these are the things we need to be hating. Mind Harness is also a reasonable alternative, since there's a fair amount of overlap in the problems it takes care of, although you're basically addressing the creatures rather than the damage-based removal. Still though, it hates two colors rather than one. And on the cheap.
EDIT: Also, since Boots mentioned he might want to run countermagic in these slots, Spell Pierce should probably be mentioned.
BEB and Hydroblast are fine choices for the reasons you mentioned, DDK. The Blasts do also offer up a solution to the format's most popular sweeper for U.
Why wouldn't you want to run Threads instead of Harness? They are both narrow in their own ways, but Threads only eats your mana one time, where Harness gets more and more taxing.
Spell Pierce is pretty awesome, and I usually run 2-3 in my 75 of a lot of blue based decks. It answers a lot more relevant cards than Dispel does that could be a pain for this deck (Moat, Choke, Planeswalkers, etc). While Pierce isn't a hard counter, it can still push an opponent's plans off by two turns. Dispel is better against removal mid to late game though. Divert is kind of an in between of those two and randomly you can 2 for 1 opponents. But sadly, it is even more narrow because it's almost always going to be removal only, where Dispel can still hit Brainstorm and other instants.
Basically, I recommended Harness instead of Threads, because he specifically mentioned wanting to improve the Zoo matchup. I haven't tested much recently, but the theory is that stealing their creature earlier is good because they tend to come out of the gates so much quicker than us. If you can manage the heat they apply during the first few turns, your outlook for the match is gonna be better. Usually you're gonna treat the creature you steal as an expendable resource anyways, since you're just trying to sneak in damage/ set up a 2-for-1, so if you can just force them to dead their own creature asap, I would think the cumulative upkeep wouldn't end up eating too much tempo. I certainly have been known to misread data before though, so who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
Another point however, is that by the time you have the :1::u::u: for Threads, your hand is going to be somewhat emptied out anyways, and you can probably afford to sit there and soak up some mana paying the upkeep if you need to. Anyhow, this is basically just theorycraft.
Goyf is likely the best creature you can steal from them early on. Otherwise, you're stuck with a 1/1 (Ape, Nacatl, Lavamancer) or at best a 2/2 exalted. And keeping the Harness on is exhausting your mana that you could be using to develop your own board. That is unless you just steal them for a turn and let Harness fall off, in which case, why wouldn't you just run bounce and make them replay their threats? I imagine Echoing Truth could randomly 2 for 1 bounce. I don't know, maybe I'm not seeing the logic behind Harness clearly.
I'm not sure overloading on soft counters is what this deck wants to do. You're not fast enough, and you don't have enough mana denial, to make tons of soft counters relevant - they're good in the first few turns, yes, but most of the scary spells for this deck are pretty cheap, and anything not running islands is going to be able to interact with you much more in combat. Most decks with planeswalkers are blue, so you should be able to deal with them much better than something like Zoo or combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
If Negate cost one and had a drawback (like bounce an Island or something), it would be the perfect card. As it is, I think there are slightly more must-counter instants than must-counter sorceries, and I like to have hard counters in those situations. You can deal with artifacts and planeswalkers with Pithing Needles, which you should have anyway (IMO).
I mean, I don't think Merfolk is that great overall, but I think you'd benefit more from having specialized hard counters than just tons of soft ones.
Not true. In my testing I've always been stuck with a threads in my hand while a KOTR, Terravore, or CC is beating me to death. I really prefer Mind Harness because you can beat them down with their huge creature for a turn or two and then finish the job with your lords if you have to.Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
To boil it down a bit more, for the areas larger tournaments we sit around 2-4 Merfolk decks, 1-3 Zoo, 0-1 Goblins, 1-3 Storm combo, 0-3 Lands, 0-2 Faeries, and tons of Bant colored decks, split between Horizons and NO Bant. And I suppose some counter top decks, but less than there was. Oh, and new tech for us are Hypergenesis builds.
Spell Pierce seems more universally useful, though I can see the argument made for REB. The storm decks in the area are usually defaulting to TES builds.
I agree. MH is just perfect in this role, as it turns your extra wastelands and Mutavaults in extra turns beating with a 5/6.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru3z3rox
It's also very useful if you dropped an early Vial, as you can drop EOT Lords,beat with em AND with something else in your turn,keeping down the lifepoint of your opponent, say, for 3-4 turns, til they got back their goyf when its too late.
Plus, you can start borrowing creatures by turn 2-3, wich is great if you dont have enough critters to cast.
Last: PtE on your/their goyf/KOTR/Terravore/random beater. The next MH i draw will beat hard.
IMHO splashing black > splashing withe. for ALL the reasons you posted above, though i'm not feeling Agony Warp....i see its potential to do a 2x1...but i just dont like it.Maybe i'd rather go with diabolics to deal with marit lage/progenitus.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicplaya10
Did people stop running gofys in their merfolk decks? having green for grip in the board seems really good too. Or is the new level up lord better?
I disagree. Splashing withe is very hard to do since they have yet to print the blue/withe dual land, or even a withe fetch. In fact, withe isn't even a color and has 0 cards in magic the gathering. So I think splashing black is better IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
People have never ran gofys in merfolk, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino
You lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
No, the man is just on a spelling Nazi trip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sims
Diminish>>>>> Agony Warp
Doom Blade > Agony Warp
yeah, i'm sorry. late night+ some 66 heinekens + a bit sleepy. Oh, they should really print some tarmogoofys, at least in their next UN-something set.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
God, but it's great to see the conversation in this thread stay so consistently on-track. :wink:
I'm putting together a Merfolk build for Columbus as we speak. Basically, I'm going to be the guy (one of many, I'm sure) that shows up without having tested and gets completely rolled over. But it's gonna be fun anyways. To the point...
I'll probably be bringing the mono-U 16 lords build, just like Alex Bertoncini's, since it's proven and I don't have time to test. But I have no idea what to put in the sideboard. For those of you who have played with Mind Harness, is the upkeep too taxing or are you winning before it becomes an issue? It seems like a good way to deal with goyfs + red stuff. Sowers might be a bad option since they can bolt it for a 2 for 1 of sorts, but I do have them, so would those be workable? Threads might be better, but like others have said it misses larger non-goyf dudes, and can still be offed with a Pridemage or Grip. How do these answers compare to Submerge, which is more of a tempo move, but can always respond to a fetchland to kill a goyf? Sorry for all the questions, I just haven't played much with any of these cards, and I thought the topic could return to SB discussion.
Finally, I'd like to know peoples' thoughts about how many Zoo/Goyf answers are needed in the SB (in a 16 lords deck that plays Kira MB), versus more general answers like Back to Basics, Propaganda and and Spell Pierce (not in the MB) or other hosers like BEB or Llawan. Thanks!
I really like Kira. I've not had a chance to play her, really. But man... I remember her from the days of Kamigawa Standard and she was awesome. Also, I like Thada Adel in the sideboard.
If it isn't already, (and if the deck is going to survive, which I'm not even sure about yet ) I believe Kira is likely to become a staple for the deck.
Where do you want to bring in Thada Adel? Possible targets that I'm actually interested in by the time I can connect with Thada (turn 4 earliest):
- Engineered Explosives
- Vedalken Shackles
- Umezawa's Jitte
- Sword of the Meek (almost always a singleton)
These are mostly defensive picks, so they can't use it against me. These cards are primarily used in decks which are often already decent matchups though (Jitte being the occasional exception); Cold-Eyed Selkie is generally just flat out better in these cases; I'm most worried about Zoo; let's hope blue-based dedicated control decks increase in viability and pwn Zoo's face.
peace,
4eak
Hmm, you make a good point. Selkie is the hawtness.
I agree, Thada is mostly just cute. Selkie, on the other hand, when combined with Kira and all of our Lords/unblockable/island walking, etc can be REALLY dangerous to our opponent.
Are you looking at putting Selkie main or putting her in the side to swap out with Daze/Force/Pierce in Zoo?
Neither at the moment. I said Selkie was better than Thada, but I didn't say Selkie was worth playing either. The point is that, for now, neither card improves the matchups I am most worried about. At this point, I'm willing to lose ground against opposing blue decks (to some extent) to gain ground against Red and Green based aggro decks. If we are to assume that the deck should evolve to beat many non-blue decks (particularly Zoo), Selkie (and thus Thada) are completely out of the question.Quote:
Are you looking at putting Selkie main or putting her in the side to swap out with Daze/Force/Pierce in Zoo?
If, however, blue-based dedicated control actually becomes a top contender (I'm not holding my breath), or if bad matchups like Zoo truly destabilize the the presence of blue-based decks in the general metagame (thus making Merfolk a purely specific metagame deck in undeveloped or skewed metagames--like much of the Established Forum), then Selkie may become a reasonable choice. We basically need to see a lot more or a lot less Islands in the overall metagame for Selkie to become a viable card.
peace,
4eak
What? How the hell did this become the topic? Agony Warp. Someone was going to splash fucking black for Agony Warp? The mind reels. Do keep in mind the Threads of Disloyalty, Control Magic, and Submerge all exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azdraël
I do love this thread though. It's the only one on the source pushing 200 pages without accomplishing anything.
If we're splashing black, wouldn't Perish help a lot? It gets rid of Zoo's biggest threats. There's still the burn component of their decks to worry about, but it's still a many-for-one trade. Also useful against the odd Elf deck and Progenitus. What cards besides blue blasts do people currently use against Zoo? If Zoo's the biggest reason for Blue blasts and you're splashing black anyway, Perish might be a better choice. That's not to say that you should splash black just for Perish but it's an idea for those already thinking about it.
the point was that maybe splashing black>splashing white. BUT monoU>UB>UW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Thada adel will be nice after Scars of Mirrodin, when (maybe) we will have new Stax, 5/3 aggro builds, and so on.Now is almost useless and not worth 1-2 slots in sb.However, i suggest buying a set.
Selkie is useless. Improves MU we dont need to be improved.
I recently cut Standstills, following the example of a couple people/decklists that placed well at large SCG tournaments. I was a doubter of the 16 lords plan, but playing with them feels extremely strong--definitely the way to go.
Anyway, cutting Standstills has caused me to look at the rest of the cards in the deck, so my question is this:
In order to increase our game against Zoo et. al. and the mirror, do you think cutting Cursecatchers from the main and replacing them with more relevant cards could be the answer?
Some example cards:
Equipment
Kira
Control Magic
Spell Snare
Spell Pierce
Stifle
Redirect
Cosi's Trickster
Sejiri Merfolk
Either Sygg
...Tarmogoyf?
Cursecatchers are our best turn 1 plays aside from dropping a vial. Nothing can really replace it and anyway I already run 2 Kira in the main. The only other thing I can think of that would come close is Cosi's Trickster, but even that is underwhelming most of the time. Just because combo is on a downturn doesn't mean we should punt the matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Cursecatchers are our best turn 1 plays aside from dropping a vial. Nothing can really replace it and anyway I already run 2 Kira in the main. The only other thing I can think of that would come close is Cosi's Trickster, but even that is underwhelming most of the time. Just because combo is on a downturn doesn't mean we should punt the matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
I guess the thing to do is first consider how to best attack the Zoo MU. Do we go for broad sweepers and big moves (e.g. the Perish idea I had suggested above for the Black splash) or do we go for cheap point removal, e.g. Mind Harness, Submerge, StP for the White splash, etc. It was said in the past that the StP+PtE plan was our best bet at beating Zoo, but everyone plays mono-blue now in spite of Zoo being the most popular deck in competitive Legacy. What has changed to make people drop white even when one of our worst MUs is also one of the most likely?
I think Kira is an awesome choice for the MU, given that she just about guarantees a 2-for-1 exchange. At the same time, she's enough of a lightning rod that playing 3-4 copies of her isn't a problem even though she's a Legend: Zoo will want to get rid of her anyway unless you're so far behind that they can just aim everything at your head and attack through your guys. The biggest problems are the 3-mana cost and the fact that she can't save you if you're really far behind, as described above.
Hi,
I was currently reviewing my decklist and I would like to ask if Back to Basics will be a good SB plan? This would definitely slowdown Zoo due to dual land dependency. Is there someone who already did this?
Splashing black will give me access to both Smother, Perish and Engineered Plague (GOBLINS). but I need to put fetchlands and prone to Wasteland effect. Is there someone who have tested this build??
Thanks
Pretty much every Zoo list runs one of each basic land, so you may slow them down a little but it's hardly a rout. I just wish Blue had something better than Hibernation or Acid Rain for hosing Green.
At least it is not as bad as 80 pages of trolling (you know which Established Deck I'm talking about).Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Back the Merfolks:
I noticed that a lot of Merfolk lists have resorted to 16+ lords (and ultimately cutting Standstills). This pretty much ends the Standstill-lists for merfolks.
Now the question is: what happens when all these board control decks start popping out to beat Zoo/Goblins and the rest of the aggro world? Keep in mind, board control decks also gained a lot with the shafting of Combo decks. Even then, there are still viable combo decks out there that were not affected with the post-tutor bannings. Are we hastily switching our maindecks to accomodate our needs to beat these forementioned aggro-decks?
Would the old Standstill-lists be reincarnated to beat these board control decks? Granted, these old lists aren't as effective against Lands.dec but there are other board control decks out there that might just start busting out (such as Enchantress, Aggro-loam, Rock, Staxx and Quinn).
I am not saying that these 16+ lord lists are going the wrong way but have you guys ever tested your decks against format's Board Control decks?
Have we really not accomplished anything?
I know it goes against the gameplan of Vial, but against Zoo what about something like
-4 Vial
+4 EE
EE gives you a huge sweeper for all their 1 drops considering Merfolk only runs 4 Cursecatchers I can't see it being that much of a problem.
Perish is too narrow IMO it doesn't even answer Lynx, Mancer, Ape, etc. Also could use Spell Pierces/Divert along side the EEs