[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Consistency is:
-countering their first turn play and resolving a Standstill
-getting virtual card advantage with Standstill by slowing their game plan down
-drawing 3 cards and having access to free countermagic
-having a strong mana-denial package alongside card draw, cheap threats, and Brainstorm

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Actually if your opponent has notting to say you are right.
But you usually don't goldfish against an opponent

The fact is that back 9 years ago this deck was awesome (especially piloted by M.Hausmann)

http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?t...ide=&strict=on

Since then all other decks are evolved. As you are playing it, you are nearly only leaving the counterbalance soft lock for Delver, so that you have more chance to drop a standstill, comparing the list with the 2009s. But it is not enoght. You should at least consider some new mechanics to increase the power level of the deck.
Some player few years ago were playing Punishing Fire for example.

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Originally Posted by frustanani

The difference between Aether Vial and Whir of Invention is a lot
- with Vial you need the creature in hand (so 2 cards), with Whir in your deck
- if you topdeck Vial you do notting with it. Whir is an awesome topdeck
- Vial can put into play only creature. Whir in my list can take 23 cards.
- Whir makes you virtually play with more winning condition and allow you to win throught a Chalice of the Void@1

Ad for the protection issue. You may better read the list and compare it to other lists. Protection are more, and Spellskite can be played even before you play an important creature. Not to mention he is playable via Whir of Invention and protect one of your pieces from Abrupt Decay or Jace, The Mind Sculptor etc.
How many counters do you think you can play vs 4 Snapcaster Mage decks ? Don't you better play relic of progenitus (which can be a cantrip, while slowing nearly any decks around). Not only there are more protections, but also more threats.

For sure a list like the one I proposed is slower than usual lists.

Generally I think Phyrexian Dreadnought to be a week strategy. While Painter is stronger (don't pass throught combat phase, takes 1 turn to kill, don't need to play 2 cards in the same moment, can kill in response to remouvals etc.) and works perfectly with Whir of Invention. So why not abusing of that blue card to make Dreadnought strategy more solid and stable ?

Consistency also means:
- not dying from a Ensnaring Bridge
- not dying from a Chalice of the Void
- not dying from a Abrupt Decay
- not needing 4 cards in hand to play and protect something: Phyrexian Dreadnought + Stifle + Force of Will + a blue pitch
etc.

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Whir costs UUU, at some point you do have to make direct mana comparisons to mana positive Vial which also taps to improvise. Aether Vial actually does the Dreadnought trick (cast Dreadnought, it resolves b/c opponent isn't going to counter it, trigger on stack Vial in Dreadnought #2, sac Dreadnought #1) - so note that here we have combined Reverse Engineer's CA/mana shortcutting idea with a piece of Dreadnought tech that also taps for improvise. There is now also this option to stack Standstill on top of all of this because turn 1 Vial plays really nicely with Standstill. The main thing holding this idea back is the amount of slots (for simplicity assume 4x Factory, 4x Dreadnought, 4x Vial, 4x Reverse Engineer, 4x Standstill, 12x FoW/Bstorm/Stifle), there is no longer creative space to have adequate threat density, disruption, and more 0-1 cmc artifacts for improvise + all the lands you still need to add.

Based on identifying the most efficient Whir of Invention analogue (and yes I know Vial is different-ish, but it's still just the better card/better direction for the deck you've described), you just count the slots left to know not only that there isn't really space to complete the idea, and even less to pack in a completely separate strategy. Your list doesn't have Standstill/Factory (and the land total needed for Standstill), but that holy triangle of Vial/Standstill/Reverse Engineer is the level of favorable interactions you need to have if you want to compete with Dreadnought.

So we know why that deck can't exist (slots) and that is an issue you tackle by immediate rotation of the deck idea to: Reverse Engineer/Ancient Tomb/Walking Ballista [this is now a Chalice deck]. Theory by itself is probably good enough to reach the conclusion that:
-Painter and Dreadnought aren't really Sol Land/Chalice decks
-They are two non-overlapping strategies, such that mashing them up is just losing to variance.

This conclusion is something we should arrive at before having a serious discussion about Whir vs Vial. Dreadnought has an incredibly high demand for parallel synergy, and that generally means it can be the only columnar (A + B or A then B) element in a deck. Dreadnought + Standstill works in UR b/c each columnar element is actually just about using creatures to Duress removal spells as we count to 20. Dreadnought + Reanimator works because both columnar strategies really intersect around Vision Charm, JVP, and Lotus Petal; unlike UR variance here is higher because we've chosen to do two distinctly powerful things with tools that have text for both strategies. Dreadnought and Painter/Stone just don't share tech, and as far as Dreadnought is concerned it's always going to choose Cursed Scroll over Grindstone as a random 1 mana artifact element (because that is easier to turn on if you're tossing down Dreadnoughts; do note that Cursed Scroll does hurt Delver plan). I think the same can be said of Painter (Cursed Scroll would be better than Dreadnought), but you're still probably better off with Thopter/Sword + Transmute Artifact and/or Welder.

As far as your most recent post, [non-UR] Dreadnought is constantly evolving and able to incorporate new cards to incredibly high degrees. Most decks in legacy are actually dead, simply waiting for something strictly better to fill a set role [sorry but dropping Disfigure for Fatal Push isn't innovative] - these decks will never adapt to hijack mechanics because the tools they use are mechanically simple/linear independently-functioning 1-offs. Dreadnought evolves on coherent and comprehensive ideas, not the printing of individually better cards.

Search for Azcanta has been fantastic. I highly recommend anyone that has a flex slot to try SfA. It's essentially another copy of Standstill, but much better in the late game. I might even play 2 copies once I get my set of Forces.

Having tested the Shadow matchup a ton and beating it 3 times in tournament and a bunch online I can safely say the matchup is pretty good for us. Dreadnought is actually fairly decent against them since they have to burn removal on Delvers. Dismember should be at a 3 of I think SB for this matchup as it's absolutely insane at killing every single threat they play. Very good results so far in this MU. Board plan went something like

-3 Snare
-1 Trickbind
-2 Daze (draw)
-1 Dreadnought

+3 Pierce
+2-3 Dismember
+2 Misdrection (Alot of builds randomly board Hymn)

I'm still working on getting forces, but I played last Friday and went 1-3. I've been getting the good matchups or bad players and now I'm learning how to grind through bad matchups and good players. Lost to Miracles, Grixis Control, and BW Taxes. Won against Death's Shadow.

I'm trying to figure out how to optimize a mono-blue list. I figured getting Standstills in the grindy matchups would be slam-dunks for giving me an edge, and instead my opponents ended up playing more lands than me and pulling ahead anyways. Really, really need a threat before landing Standstill in some matches. I felt, generally, that I didn't have enough high-impact threats. Factory is great in multiples, Dreadnought (If I can keep it around for a turn) is super fast, but Delver isn't enough. Back to 2x Nimble Obstructionist. Vapor Snag has also been fairly underwhelming. The games where I can play tempo are fewer than I'd like, much more reliant on the die roll. I need to be able to play both tempo and a slower control game. Vapor Snag out, 3rd Dismember and 2x Ratchet Bomb main.

Here is my updated list, tested a few games and it feels better. Depending on how the metagame shapes up locally I'll keep the Vapor Snags in reserve.

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Nimble Obstructionist
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
2x Counterspell
1x Force of Will
4x Standstill
1x Torpor Orb
1x Trickbind
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x Dismember

4x Flooded Strand
3x Scalding Tarn
6x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory

Sideboard
2x Dispel
4x Misdirection
2x Sower of Temptation
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Echoing Truth
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Surgical Extraction


Jace and Dispel are for grindier blue-based control matchups. Against Miracles, I think landing a Jace would have been excellent. Search for Azcanta was pretty good, but not impactful enough. I thought it would be a Standstill that would be good from behind, and it didn't do enough. When I get behind I think it's better to prioritize getting a Dreadnought down to stabilize or race. Sower does a good job of stabilizing as well, if I can stall long enough. Testing Spell Pierce in the maindeck, I think it might need to be switched with Spell Snare.

Some other cards I'm considering:

Gigadrowse
Aetherize
Whir of Invention
Piracy Charm
Vendilion Clique
Spellstutter Sprite + Mutavault
2nd Torpor Orb, maybe even 3

Id cut Obstructionist from this deck at this point. Even if you arent splashing True Name, Snapcaster Mage, and Trinket Mage are all better options right now. Personally True Name is where our edge surges vs control. I like Dispel alot 4 Misdirections may be too many...3 might be good. Why no Back to Basics?? In the matchups we use them the fact they tapdown our factories is very irrelevent.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I'm still working on getting forces, but I played last Friday and went 1-3. I've been getting the good matchups or bad players and now I'm learning how to grind through bad matchups and good players. Lost to Miracles, Grixis Control, and BW Taxes. Won against Death's Shadow.

I'm trying to figure out how to optimize a mono-blue list. I figured getting Standstills in the grindy matchups would be slam-dunks for giving me an edge, and instead my opponents ended up playing more lands than me and pulling ahead anyways. Really, really need a threat before landing Standstill in some matches. I felt, generally, that I didn't have enough high-impact threats. Factory is great in multiples, Dreadnought (If I can keep it around for a turn) is super fast, but Delver isn't enough. Back to 2x Nimble Obstructionist. Vapor Snag has also been fairly underwhelming. The games where I can play tempo are fewer than I'd like, much more reliant on the die roll. I need to be able to play both tempo and a slower control game. Vapor Snag out, 3rd Dismember and 2x Ratchet Bomb main.

Here is my updated list, tested a few games and it feels better. Depending on how the metagame shapes up locally I'll keep the Vapor Snags in reserve.

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Nimble Obstructionist
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
2x Counterspell
1x Force of Will
4x Standstill
1x Torpor Orb
1x Trickbind
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x Dismember

4x Flooded Strand
3x Scalding Tarn
6x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory

Sideboard
2x Dispel
4x Misdirection
2x Sower of Temptation
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Echoing Truth
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Surgical Extraction


Jace and Dispel are for grindier blue-based control matchups. Against Miracles, I think landing a Jace would have been excellent. Search for Azcanta was pretty good, but not impactful enough. I thought it would be a Standstill that would be good from behind, and it didn't do enough. When I get behind I think it's better to prioritize getting a Dreadnought down to stabilize or race. Sower does a good job of stabilizing as well, if I can stall long enough. Testing Spell Pierce in the maindeck, I think it might need to be switched with Spell Snare.

Some other cards I'm considering:

Gigadrowse
Aetherize
Whir of Invention
Piracy Charm
Vendilion Clique
Spellstutter Sprite + Mutavault
2nd Torpor Orb, maybe even 3

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I'm trying this list from a couple of weeks

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Dismember
2 Set Adrift
2 Psionic Blast

2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
6 Island

///side///
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Marrow Shards
1 Counterspell
1 Mana Leak
1 Miscalculation
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Walking Ballista


I works very good vs Jace decks but suffers delver decks.
I'm not happy with the 4 "remouvals" Dismember (good only on turn 1/2) and Set Adrift (too slow) which should be lightning bolts or fatal pushes.
Vendilion Clique is very good and better than Nimble Obstructionist.
To play Standstill you need 4 Force of Will to my view. Without 4 Force of Will I would not play Standstills' lists.

Yes, I am painfully aware that I need 4x Force of Will.

I've been thinking long and hard about a splash color for this deck, and I have the ability to likely splash white (I could afford a tundra, not a volcanic or usea.) White offers some incredible upgrades in the event of a control-heavy metagame with Myth Realized. The removal of Swords to Plowshares seems very good, and white has some very good sideboard cards (Disenchant, Supreme Verdict, Council's Judgment, Rest in Peace, Containment Priest.) I could easily go between Dreadstill or Uw Landstill variants depending on metagame shifts, or just have a transformative sideboard that boards out Dreadnoughts for sweepers. This also opens up UW Stoneblade for me, because I have the SFM/BSkull/Jitte package already.

However, this is not the main reason for posting. I have been thinking a lot about the Miracles and Grixis Control matchup. Grixis control I can attack with Wasteland, but Miracles has probably the most resilient 2 color mana-base in legacy. How do I approach this matchup? Standstill is great if I can get pressure in underneath it (Factory, early uncountered Delver) but Dreadnought is likely correct to board out. Currently I'm boarding a Jace to deal with Control matchups. Factory is also key in that matchup, so maybe boarding 1-2 Mutavaults is correct? It's pretty important to maintain land drops when Standstill is on the table so increasing land count seems good, along with additional cheap threats for pressure. Alternatives are Retrofitter's Foundry and Chimeric Mass, both of which can dodge removal and are easier to protect than Dreadnought. Foundry is very resilient, making 1/1's under standstill and sometimes doing more if I get the opportunity to upgrade.

TL;DR - how do I approach the Miracles and Grixis Control matchups? I feel like there is enough of a presence at my LGS that I need to plan accordingly in my sideboard.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I've been thinking long and hard about a splash color for this deck, and I have the ability to likely splash white (I could afford a tundra, not a volcanic or usea.) White offers some incredible upgrades in the event of a control-heavy metagame with Myth Realized. The removal of Swords to Plowshares seems very good, and white has some very good sideboard cards (Disenchant, Supreme Verdict, Council's Judgment, Rest in Peace, Containment Priest.) I could easily go between Dreadstill or Uw Landstill variants depending on metagame shifts, or just have a transformative sideboard that boards out Dreadnoughts for sweepers. This also opens up UW Stoneblade for me, because I have the SFM/BSkull/Jitte package already.

However, this is not the main reason for posting. I have been thinking a lot about the Miracles and Grixis Control matchup. Grixis control I can attack with Wasteland, but Miracles has probably the most resilient 2 color mana-base in legacy. How do I approach this matchup? Standstill is great if I can get pressure in underneath it (Factory, early uncountered Delver) but Dreadnought is likely correct to board out. Currently I'm boarding a Jace to deal with Control matchups. Factory is also key in that matchup, so maybe boarding 1-2 Mutavaults is correct? It's pretty important to maintain land drops when Standstill is on the table so increasing land count seems good, along with additional cheap threats for pressure. Alternatives are Retrofitter's Foundry and Chimeric Mass, both of which can dodge removal and are easier to protect than Dreadnought. Foundry is very resilient, making 1/1's under standstill and sometimes doing more if I get the opportunity to upgrade.

TL;DR - how do I approach the Miracles and Grixis Control matchups? I feel like there is enough of a presence at my LGS that I need to plan accordingly in my sideboard.

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UW/x Stoneblade is competitive, but at the end of the day it's just a less-winning version of either miracles or Grixis Jammy Jams. UW Landstill is quite good against the field, but auto-loses to Counterbalance; so again bad miracles. I'd avoid playing UW Dreadnought if your plan is to play normal magic, because it's just a worse idea than Terminus w/ ~3x SCM and ~2x Mentor.

It's not really worth trying to beat Counterbalance, so don't ruin your deck trying (you'll stop winning games against the field). If miracles runs REB you need to bring in RiP or prevent any red source from ever casting >1 red blast effect. If CB isn't there, you Surgical StP and get 2x Factory on board (no SCM block and trade) - at this point it doesn't really matter if they have Jace on board, they're drawing to nothing if you have white cards to deal with their Mentor.

If you want to beat Grixis Jammy Jams, play Leyline of the Void or RiP (add on Misdirection effects if you want).

Against both, Desert is actually quite good (not that anyone has SB slots for a few of these). Trying to run REB'able PWs against them is fairly worthless; the best bet is Chandra, ToD. After that...maybe Karn and Desert to protect? These aren't really winnable matchups either way; the best chance is the UR approach of burning them out unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Fox

UW/x Stoneblade is competitive, but at the end of the day it's just a less-winning version of either miracles or Grixis Jammy Jams. UW Landstill is quite good against the field, but auto-loses to Counterbalance; so again bad miracles. I'd avoid playing UW Dreadnought if your plan is to play normal magic, because it's just a worse idea than Terminus w/ ~3x SCM and ~2x Mentor.

It's not really worth trying to beat Counterbalance, so don't ruin your deck trying (you'll stop winning games against the field). If miracles runs REB you need to bring in RiP or prevent any red source from ever casting >1 red blast effect. If CB isn't there, you Surgical StP and get 2x Factory on board (no SCM block and trade) - at this point it doesn't really matter if they have Jace on board, they're drawing to nothing if you have white cards to deal with their Mentor.

If you want to beat Grixis Jammy Jams, play Leyline of the Void or RiP (add on Misdirection effects if you want).

Against both, Desert is actually quite good (not that anyone has SB slots for a few of these). Trying to run REB'able PWs against them is fairly worthless; the best bet is Chandra, ToD. After that...maybe Karn and Desert to protect? These aren't really winnable matchups either way; the best chance is the UR approach of burning them out unfortunately.

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My thought was that man-lands are excellent against them. I found myself beating them down with Factory under Standstill to be a winning line, which is why I was thinking Mutavault or Foundry is good against them (Foundry is a colorless Bitterblossom, even if it isn't anywhere near it in power level, and Bitterblossom is incredible against Miracles.)

I wouldn't play Desert before Maze of Ith. Honestly, I was seriously looking at Silent Arbiter + Maze of Ith. Pairing it with Dreadnought, Delver, or Factory seems very good, especially when my removal is Dismember.

Is it blasphemy to consider cutting Standstill, or putting it to the sideboard? I find that it can be a liability in many games where I need to have interaction but I don't. It's also terrible when I am already behind on board and Standstill is dead in hand, or my opponent is getting ahead on land drops while I sit and do nothing with a Standstill in play(no factories.) I was wondering if it would be better to just use Search for Azcanta? I've wanted Ponder a bunch of times as well, which could have dug me into a combo when I needed it.

The other alternative is to simply not play 4 copies of Standstill, cutting down to 2-3. I also think that the Ancestral Knowledge package that Miracles is using is pretty good, too. Thoughts to chew on.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Is it blasphemy to consider cutting Standstill, or putting it to the sideboard? I find that it can be a liability in many games where I need to have interaction but I don't. It's also terrible when I am already behind on board and Standstill is dead in hand, or my opponent is getting ahead on land drops while I sit and do nothing with a Standstill in play(no factories.) I was wondering if it would be better to just use Search for Azcanta? I've wanted Ponder a bunch of times as well, which could have dug me into a combo when I needed it.

The other alternative is to simply not play 4 copies of Standstill, cutting down to 2-3. I also think that the Ancestral Knowledge package that Miracles is using is pretty good, too. Thoughts to chew on.

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I don't like Accumulated Knowledge. I prefere impulse for card selection or predict for card advantage speeking of cc2 spells.

Maybe you could try

4 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
3 wasteland
3 mishra's factory
6 island

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 portent
3 predict

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Originally Posted by frustanani

I don't like Accumulated Knowledge. I prefere impulse for card selection or predict for card advantage speeking of cc2 spells.

Maybe you could try

4 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
3 wasteland
3 mishra's factory
6 island

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 portent
3 predict

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Predict takes considerable setup, as you prove, with tons of cantrips. I don't have space. The real question is whether the raw 3 cards drawn from Standstill (which is conditional) is better than just filtering 3 cards with Ponder. Ponder has no qualifying aspects to make it good. Same with Search for Azcanta, although it's slow. Once I get 4x Force of Will I'm sure I'll go back to 4x Standstill, because it's great fodder for free Forces when it's dead in hand.

For now, I'm going to just trim down to 3x Standstill and play a Ponder. This should reduce the frequency that multiples are dead in hand while giving me another way to set up Delver flips and feed me relevant cards.

Guilds of Ravnica stuff:
Expansion actually playable and $1; would buy a playset at least. Would expect standard to ramp up the price; it's effectively counterspell for :u::u:.
Risk Factor not great, but playable I guess.
Assassin's Trophy not that we play BG with Dreadnought, but punishes fetching around Wasteland to some degree. Doubt I'd pay above $10 for this card though.

Bad anti-CB stuff:
Unmoored Ego
Drowned Secrets

Misses:
Quasiduplicate doesn't really work, but it's kinda close.
Lazav, the Multifarious bad Torpor Orb, Ill. Mask, Sundial, or even Eldrazi Mimic. Also unable to compete for a slot vs Delver, Confidant, JVP, Tasigur/Gurmag...or a PW.

Not a huge amount in this set; and certainly nothing that healthy when you read Trophy + Ego together in terms of overall game design, particularly with Snapcaster. Expansion is interesting as it can bounce back Kcomm and Duress, but still it's kinda worse than Psychic Rebuttal; the backside value+burn is unique though. There is some world where you run into Blood Moon + Chalice and need to use Expansion to resolve a 1cmc spell (as a copy); but probably hold out for an enemy Fiery Confluence. At worst, you're probably copying an enemy cantrip. Chandra, ToD is still the better card if you're UR, but non-red builds could run this if they wanted to.

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If you're going to play UW Dreadnought right now, you probably need to find a 2-mana, non-blue, value positive enchantment. As unconventional as my UW build was, Grixis Jammy Jams style decks are woefully under-equipped to deal with Mastery of the Unseen, and I haven't seen a better card that fits the bill in UW and redefines value to a zone discard can't touch. Standstill would check all the boxes, but dedicated UW Standstill without Dreadnoughts would be the better build, and that's bad miracles. Non-blue (white in this case) PWs that work with Dreadnought don't exist, but that is the other card type that has a chance vs Snap/Kcomm/Hymn; as it stands, Gideon of the 2/2s would be a worse fit than the unplayable Urza's Factory (or if no Standstill, Kjeldoran Outpost analogs).

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Originally Posted by Fox

If you're going to play UW Dreadnought right now, you probably need to find a 2-mana, non-blue, value positive enchantment. As unconventional as my UW build was, Grixis Jammy Jams style decks are woefully under-equipped to deal with Mastery of the Unseen, and I haven't seen a better card that fits the bill in UW and redefines value to a zone discard can't touch. Standstill would check all the boxes, but dedicated UW Standstill without Dreadnoughts would be the better build, and that's bad miracles. Non-blue (white in this case) PWs that work with Dreadnought don't exist, but that is the other card type that has a chance vs Snap/Kcomm/Hymn; as it stands, Gideon of the 2/2s would be a worse fit than the unplayable Urza's Factory (or if no Standstill, Kjeldoran Outpost analogs).

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I am testing UW. Zero standstill, 5 card stoneforge package, 2x search for azcanta, 4x ponder, 0 delvers. I play the cantrip game, swords for removal, land a dreadnought/sfm/jace to win. Still trying to jam some factories, but so far so good.

In testing, ponder has been better than standstill in almost every instance. It doesn't provide card advantage, but it gets you land drops and filters into the right cards (like a stifle + dreadnought) without any drawbacks (like not playing spells.)

I've been experimenting a lot with different dreadnought decks. Took a red/white list to a 1k and went 3 - 4 on the day. I won't lie the deck wasn't good, but I learned a lot. Torpor Orb is surprisingly great. It turns off snap casters's, stoneforge mystic's tutor, strix draws, flickerwisp bounces. I also really liked running 4x ethersworn canonist in the main + mentor and tocatli.

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Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire

I've been experimenting a lot with different dreadnought decks. Took a red/white list to a 1k and went 3 - 4 on the day. I won't lie the deck wasn't good, but I learned a lot. Torpor Orb is surprisingly great. It turns off snap casters's, stoneforge mystic's tutor, strix draws, flickerwisp bounces. I also really liked running 4x ethersworn canonist in the main + mentor and tocatli.

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Mentor is the best white wincon in the game, but it gets worse with each creature you run beside it. It's definitely more restrictive than Delver (which doesn't really allow for >15-16 total creatures), and Mentor doesn't get really get better in multiples. The Mentor numbers aren't generically solved, but I would roughly guess that every Mentor beyond the second decreases win percentage (generally competing with a cantrip). In terms of *other* creatures you can profitably run beside those 2x Mentors, I think you definitely need to be 10x or below. This is probably the highest yield area of improvement in your strategy (in terms of playing not-blue, and continuing to stay not-blue).

I've been playing a deck with "Lazav, the Multifarious" and it's been super powerful.

Has anyone tried this card out in this style deck yet?

Do you have a list? I'm interested

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Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

Do you have a list? I'm interested

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It's super early and loose but here is the list.


Main 61
19 Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Dark Confidant
4 Lazav, the Multifarious
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Planeswalkers
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope

21 Spells
2 Brainstorm
3 Careful Study
1 Darkblast
1 Fatal Push
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
4 Daze

18 Lands
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Creatures
1 Scavenging Ooze

12 Spells
2 Duress
1 Fatal Push
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Golgari Charm

2 Artifacts
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus

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Originally Posted by CovenantElite30

2 Brainstorm

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...:really:...

Otherwise the list is sweet. Shave a Lazav and a careful study.

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Originally Posted by kinda

...:really:...

Otherwise the list is sweet. Shave a Lazav and a careful study.

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The list started with 4 brainstorms. I needed a way to get creatures into the graveyard but not impact the strategy.

I built a Grixis version of this deck and really liked have 4 faithless looting.

I'll try going down to 2 Careful Study and 3 Lazav.

What do you think of the sideboard?

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Originally Posted by CovenantElite30

The list started with 4 brainstorms. I needed a way to get creatures into the graveyard but not impact the strategy.

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I think it's better to just play out your threats and then have some incidental interactions with Lazav. Dreadnought can be played and then just sacrificed to it's own trigger, then you copy it for 1. Confidants will die from opponent's removal, so no real problem there (lol.) Careful Study just supercharges the interaction. I would try hard to get 4x Brainstorm/4x Careful Study in there, somehow. The weakest spot in your deck is actually Nimble Mongoose. He's outclassed by so many other threats. At least Bob draws you cards and Goyf gets huge.

I suggest:

-4 Nimble Mongoose
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope

+2 Brainstorm
+1 Careful Study
+2 Lands

I think your PW's are good (Veil gets your creatures in the graveyard as well) but with such a low land count you really need to be wary of too many 3 drops. With 2 more lands and the extra cantrips you should be able to hit 3 mana just fine, and also draw into your powerful cards more often. Speaking of powerful cards...no Force of Will? If you don't own forces I strongly suggest getting at least a 3rd Spell Pierce in the sideboard. Spell Snare is also very, very good in decks like this, especially on the draw.

Just some thoughts. I think Lazav is a 'cool card' trap, but hey, who am I to judge, I play some pretty janky shit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I think it's better to just play out your threats and then have some incidental interactions with Lazav. Dreadnought can be played and then just sacrificed to it's own trigger, then you copy it for 1. Confidants will die from opponent's removal, so no real problem there (lol.) Careful Study just supercharges the interaction. I would try hard to get 4x Brainstorm/4x Careful Study in there, somehow. The weakest spot in your deck is actually Nimble Mongoose. He's outclassed by so many other threats. At least Bob draws you cards and Goyf gets huge.

I suggest:

-4 Nimble Mongoose
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope

+2 Brainstorm
+1 Careful Study
+2 Lands

I think your PW's are good (Veil gets your creatures in the graveyard as well) but with such a low land count you really need to be wary of too many 3 drops. With 2 more lands and the extra cantrips you should be able to hit 3 mana just fine, and also draw into your powerful cards more often. Speaking of powerful cards...no Force of Will? If you don't own forces I strongly suggest getting at least a 3rd Spell Pierce in the sideboard. Spell Snare is also very, very good in decks like this, especially on the draw.

Just some thoughts. I think Lazav is a 'cool card' trap, but hey, who am I to judge, I play some pretty janky shit.

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Thank you for your comments, I appreciate the feedback.

I put a lot of thought into having nimble in the deck.

Because of how Lazav works I can copy a nimble for 1 mana in response of it targeted. The worst feel bad moment is when you final get a Dreadnought out to just have someone Plow it.

More times then not have I just copied nimble to protect the Lazav itself without having anything else in the yard.

I'll try a build with Nimble, but have the 1 mana shroud ability attached to a creature is super powerful.

Sorry didn't fully respond to all your comments.

I didn't include Force of Will as it's just bad to play that will Bob in the deck.

Have access to 4 Thoughtseize helps in that role of taking cards that I can't deal with.

I quite like the goose interaction :cool:...but I can see sideing some out a lot of games. It's fantastic vs miracles and catching people by surprise with Lazav but meh much of the other time. No fow is OK in the md imo but I would definitely put them in the board then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CovenantElite30

Thank you for your comments, I appreciate the feedback.

I put a lot of thought into having nimble in the deck.

Because of how Lazav works I can copy a nimble for 1 mana in response of it targeted. The worst feel bad moment is when you final get a Dreadnought out to just have someone Plow it.

More times then not have I just copied nimble to protect the Lazav itself without having anything else in the yard.

I'll try a build with Nimble, but have the 1 mana shroud ability attached to a creature is super powerful.

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That's reasonable, but I don't think it's a recipe for success when you have one conditional creature in order to accommodate another conditional creature (Goose for Lazav.) On top of that, you have yet another conditional creature with Dreadnought. It's very cool, but very conditional. I'm no expert on RUG Delver, but some lists have gravitated away from Mongoose and instead play Hooting Mandrills and even Bomat Courier. I don't advocate for high cost creatures, but there are at least a few players moving away from Goose because it's too anemic in the metagame.

What about Entomb? I could easily see that as a better way to set up Lazav than Careful Study. You could even pull off a Death's Shadow trick and play Reanimate (all your dudes are super cheap) to get them back. Entomb sets you up with any creature that you need (Goose, Dreadnought, toolbox) that could even be exploited out of the board (Reclamation Sage, Scavenging Ooze, etc.) Honestly, I think something like Shardless Agent would be very cool in here, especially without any real countermagic to speak of (besides Daze, really) so cascading should be really decent. You can set it up with Brainstorm or just get pure value.

list looks cool, though I'd definitely be playing 4 Brainstorm

Probably Delver over Goyf? that way you can curve out better, and are less reliant on green. I like that Green gives you Mongoose, no other color gives a creature that will protect Lazav, but at the same time, green doesn't really give you much else. Red gives Izzet Charm for an instant speed and flexible discard outlet.

If we're sticking to green, I'd probably go

4 Goose
3 Lazav
4 Dreadnought
4 Delver

4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Careful Study
1 Spell Pierce
1 Fatal Push

2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

A bit more aggressive than your list, with less draw, but StifleNought seems like a tempo-aggro deck, we don't want long drawn out games. can bring in library from the board and that kind of thing if you want though. I say this having never played a Dreadnought, though, so take it as you will.

what kind of results have you been having? It seems interesting to work on. I'm probably gonna start getting into the archetype broadly speaking, the dreadnoughts are in the mail :cool: Though tbh I kinda wanna play some grim lavamancers. so maybe just UR for starters on my end. on that note, if anyone has a UR list they've been enjoying, would love to see it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

list looks cool, though I'd definitely be playing 4 Brainstorm

Probably Delver over Goyf? that way you can curve out better, and are less reliant on green. I like that Green gives you Mongoose, no other color gives a creature that will protect Lazav, but at the same time, green doesn't really give you much else. Red gives Izzet Charm for an instant speed and flexible discard outlet.

If we're sticking to green, I'd probably go

4 Goose
3 Lazav
4 Dreadnought
4 Delver

4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Careful Study
1 Spell Pierce
1 Fatal Push

2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

A bit more aggressive than your list, with less draw, but StifleNought seems like a tempo-aggro deck, we don't want long drawn out games. can bring in library from the board and that kind of thing if you want though. I say this having never played a Dreadnought, though, so take it as you will.

what kind of results have you been having? It seems interesting to work on. I'm probably gonna start getting into the archetype broadly speaking, the dreadnoughts are in the mail :cool: Though tbh I kinda wanna play some grim lavamancers. so maybe just UR for starters on my end. on that note, if anyone has a UR list they've been enjoying, would love to see it

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UR is the most common setup; just go back 2-3 pages and read some of the lists, they are still relevant. For me, the biggest roadblock to UR was the Volcanics. UW lets me play shocklands but have Swords to Plowshares (for a 2-card combo of 'gain 12 life') and Stoneforge Mystic (jitte and bskull both recover life totals fast.)

Regarding Lazav and the BUG setup...it's all-in on the graveyard, but not nearly as powerful as Reanimator variants or dredge. Goose, Goyf, and Lazav are all hosed together. Delver is a decent idea to diversify, but are you just a bad Team America without Force of Will at that point? In my experience, Dreadnought is challenging to make work already. Force of Will is really important to get a fast Nought and protect it (along with Daze/Spell Pierce for cheap counterspells.) That's why the backup plan is usually Standstill and Mishra's Factory; they approach from a completely different angle (Nought is for the short game, Factory/Standstill is for the long game.) This is what gives StifleNought decks their unique appeal: a control deck that can grind out games OR win turn 3-4 with a fat 12/12 trampler.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

list looks cool, though I'd definitely be playing 4 Brainstorm

Probably Delver over Goyf? that way you can curve out better, and are less reliant on green. I like that Green gives you Mongoose, no other color gives a creature that will protect Lazav, but at the same time, green doesn't really give you much else. Red gives Izzet Charm for an instant speed and flexible discard outlet.

If we're sticking to green, I'd probably go

4 Goose
3 Lazav
4 Dreadnought
4 Delver

4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Careful Study
1 Spell Pierce
1 Fatal Push

2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

A bit more aggressive than your list, with less draw, but StifleNought seems like a tempo-aggro deck, we don't want long drawn out games. can bring in library from the board and that kind of thing if you want though. I say this having never played a Dreadnought, though, so take it as you will.

what kind of results have you been having? It seems interesting to work on. I'm probably gonna start getting into the archetype broadly speaking, the dreadnoughts are in the mail :cool: Though tbh I kinda wanna play some grim lavamancers. so maybe just UR for starters on my end. on that note, if anyone has a UR list they've been enjoying, would love to see it

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Thank you for your feedback.

I'll give your list a try. The idea behind this deck was to do build around Lazav and take full advantage of the ability. Unfortunately delver isn't a great target to copy as it will just be a 1/1 every time I copy it. For the most part Lazav ends up being Goys 5,6 and 7 in most games. The main goal is not to combo off but that deck has many ways to do it. Based on some feedback yesterday here is my updated list I ran last night.

BUG Lazav:

Maindeck (61)
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Dark Confidant
3 Lazav, the Multifarious
4 Tarmogoyf

1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope

4 Brainstorm
2 Careful Study
1 Darkblast
1 Fatal Push
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
4 Daze

2 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Duress
1 Fatal Push
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Collective Brutality
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Golgari Charm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus

Illusionary Mask is bugged on Mtgo FYI. If a creature comes into play face down as a morph and gets bolted as a 2/2 it should flip, however on mtgo it goes to the graveyard. :(

Played to a 5-2 record in the Finnish legacy nationals. 109 players. Sadly my engine started a bit too late and I starded the tournament with a 0-2 record.

7 fetch lands
3 Volcanic
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

4 Delver
3 Dreadnought
3 Lavamancer

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Bolt
2 Vapor Snag
4 Stifle

SB:
3 Surgical
3 REB
3 Abrade
2 TNN
2 Pierce
2 Fluster

R1, Turbo Depths, 0-2
Never saw any snags and he comboes through double wastelands two times.

R2, Turbo Depths, 1-2
Never saw any snags and he comboes through double wastelands two times. (deja vu, huh!) I manage to steal one with delver beats.

R3, Grixis Control, 2-1 (3-0)
Standstill is just too much ca. I lost game 2, because I didn't chump an Angler and played around edict: he killed me with double bolt. He was dead to TNN next turn, but well.

R4, UR Delver, 2-0
Steal the first game with delver and lavaman. Next one is easy with dreadnought, that he didn't see coming.

R5, Lands, 2-1
Scoop the first one early, TNN takes home the second. Third one is tight but I manage to overwhelm his mazes with 6-7 creatures.

R6, Infect, 2-0
Easy two games with this much removal and counters.

R7, The Rock, 2-0
Snares hit very well both games. Game two is very grindy and I had to fight through 2 resolved Lilianas without seeing any factories. But standstill was a house.

I wouldn't change anything and the list felt very solid. I tested everything for a very long time so I wasn't surprised. I honestly didn't think that the depths match up was that bad and maybe I just got unlucky. Sorry if someone wanted to read longer match descriptions, maybe I can open them up a bit more if someone wants.

Nice job Yan, 5-2 is pretty dang good, shame your car didn't start or you could have made it pretty far!

I played the deck for the first time tonight, managed to 4-0 our weekly here, so the beginner's luck was with me I suppose. Here is a list I kind of scrapped together, comments welcome:

2 Volc (that's all I have)
4 Island
1 Mountain
2 Tarn (don't have all 4)
1 Misty
1 Mesa
2 Delta
4 Factory
4 Wasteland

4 Dreadnought
4 Delver
2 Lavamancer
1 TNN

4 Bolt
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Trickbind
1 Vision Charm

4 Standstill

SB
3 Surgical
2 Pyroblast
2 Abrade
2 Chandra, ToD
2 Misdirection
1 Fluster
1 Spell Snare
1 Teferi's Protection

I built the deck mostly choosing cards based on the fact that I wanted to play them :cool: I love Grimzz and wanted to be able to try and get someone with teferi's protection. Too cute, I know, but still. Was on 4 12/12s cuz I definitely wanted to play him. The manabase is suboptimal as I don't own all 4 tarns and the third volc would have been nice, but it felt more or less fine all night.

Rd 1 - Burn
Game 1 I get a turn 2 dreadnought and he can't race it. Game 2 he decides not to kill my delver and I drop a standstill, delver eventually gets there. This person was somewhat new to the format, so made some suboptimal plays.

Rd 2 - Sneak and Show
Game 1 he just takes me down. Game 2 we both mull to 5, and I just drop a standstill on turn 2 with nothing under it. But I draw a factory soon, he breaks it to cantrip. I draw into another standstill, drop a second factory; he's just buried and factories get there. Game 3 I delver him out.

Rd 3 - UR Delver
Game 1 he wins cuz delver is flying and grim lavamancer doesn't care about blockers. My dreadnought comes a turn too late and he clocks me out before it matters. Game 2 I land the Dreadnought on turn 3 with the uncounterable Trickbind and that's all she wrote. Game 3 is more grindy but again ends with stiflenought for the win.

Rd 4 - Dredge
Game 1 he mulls to 5 but it's God's Perfect 5 with LED, Faithless, 2 dredgers, and a land (or something silly like that). I'm dead. Game 2 I manage to slow him down a bit, stifle a colosseum, and make my lavaman kill himself to exile his bridges. Then I assemble the 12/12 and my boy takes over the game. Game 3 is similar, turn 2 he therapies me, and I have stifle + nought in hand. I brainstorm, see a second dreadnought. I hide the whole combo and he names dreadnought, takes the redundant one. Luckily the rest is safe, I put it out there. But he gets a 16/16 grave troll. So we stare each other down but I have lavaman who slowly burns him out and that's all she wrote.

8-3 in games, 4-0 in matches.

Some observations
- the deck is super fun, and everyone compliments it for just being a sweet deck. Plus you get to play vision charm.
- spell snare felt really weak, maybe that's just the matchups.
- I love how we can delver people but also can take the line of just dropping a 12/12 and making them deal with it
- izzet charm is a card I want to try out, seems very useful
- might move TNN to the board, I like Yan's idea on that, and 3 grim lavamancer sounds good in the MD as the card is amazing in a lot of fair matchups
- 8 colorless lands put colored mana at a real premium, wish there was some way to fix that but probably there isn't

Any tips appreciated! Thank you introducing me to a great deck and I look forward to seeing the Dread in people's faces as I bring them to Nought in the future!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

Nice job Yan, 5-2 is pretty dang good, shame your car didn't start or you could have made it pretty far!

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Heh, car worked just fine :D it was my "personal gaming engine" that didn't start the way I wanted (=0-2 start) I'm old I guess.
Anyway, congrats on your finish! Your matchups seemed to have been on the easy side of things, but that's just good. Also SnT and dredge are one of those decks that Snare is completely dead against, so that's why they probably felt weak.
My version is obviously not leaning as much on Dreadnought as everyone elses, but I can see both sides of the argument. 3 is enough for me as I board them out a lot against most of the fair decks.

Snare is very good against some decks, dead in others. It's decent against Miracles, Grixis Control, Storm, Burn, Stoneblade. It's terrible against super linear decks that have alternative engines (D&T, Goblins, Dredge, Lands, Depths.) I've tried it a ton (considering I only have 1 Force) but it still just doesn't do a ton. I've always found Spell Pierce to be a better 1 mana counterspell.

I've done really well at weeklies with Dreadnoughts as well, even with my sub-optimal lists, mostly because of 2 reasons: people don't expect Dreadnought or Standstill, and the format is ill-equipped to deal with big tramplers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Snare is very good against some decks, dead in others. It's decent against Miracles, Grixis Control, Storm, Burn, Stoneblade. It's terrible against super linear decks that have alternative engines (D&T, Goblins, Dredge, Lands, Depths.).

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I disagree with some of the decks you listed. Against DnT and Goblins, snare is still okay if you deal with their caverns. Atleast I have 15 other cards in my 75 that are worse than them, nothing spectacular though. Against Lands and Depthst, you can counter their tutors, loams, hexmages. Just delaying that loam for one turn can really make the difference in a tempo deck like this.

However, I do think they are quite bad (=other cards are better) against all the delver decks (not UR, but that's actually burn), SnT, dredge and elves, and some other not-so-played-decks. Against everything else, I think it's far above decent. I can see where your feeling comes though, as I think FoW is actually very crucial to this deck and when you try to replace them with something else, it just won't feel right. If I would have the same problem, I would probably just max out on misdirections and go all in on resolving dreadnought and protecting it at all cost.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yan

I disagree with some of the decks you listed. Against DnT and Goblins, snare is still okay if you deal with their caverns. Atleast I have 15 other cards in my 75 that are worse than them, nothing spectacular though. Against Lands and Depthst, you can counter their tutors, loams, hexmages. Just delaying that loam for one turn can really make the difference in a tempo deck like this.

However, I do think they are quite bad (=other cards are better) against all the delver decks (not UR, but that's actually burn), SnT, dredge and elves, and some other not-so-played-decks. Against everything else, I think it's far above decent. I can see where your feeling comes though, as I think FoW is actually very crucial to this deck and when you try to replace them with something else, it just won't feel right. If I would have the same problem, I would probably just max out on misdirections and go all in on resolving dreadnought and protecting it at all cost.

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There's a big difference between 'not dead/still ok' and 'good'. I agree that it can sometimes be ok (IF you deal with Cavern, IF they don't have an Aether Vial.) My first cut against Vial decks is usually Daze, followed by Spell Pierce, but Spell Snare isn't far behind. Force of Will at least counters a t1 Vial. This is one of the bigger reasons why splash colors are so important. Red gives you bolts, Abrade, Pyroclasm, and other options. White gives you Swords to Plowshares, Disenchant, and Supreme Verdict.

Against the delver decks Spell Snare counters: Hymn to Tourach, Diabolic Edict, Bitterblossom, Snapcaster Mage, Young Pyromancer, and Tarmogoyf. I would feel a lot better keeping Spell Snare in against Delver than against anything playing Aether Vial.

Obviously there is FoW and wasteland to answer those things, that is the crucial thing that your version is missing half of, which is why I can understand that you don’t like Snare. I would never cut those two against vial/cavern before I’d cut snare, but I have 15 worse cards in the 75, so for me it’s a fine card to have.

For me, delver decks are UB Shadow, Grixis delver, RUG delver. Shadow might run some number of edicts (0-2). Grixis might have pyromancer (some don’t) and RUG has goyfs (some don’t).That is all. I stand by my claim that it is not worth it to run Snare against max 4 spells in opponents deck that they might not even have.

Don’t get me wrong, I like Pierce as a substitute for that Snare slot, if I want to hedge more against SnT and delver decks but as of now, I think those matchups are fine even with this setup and I’m better of having Snare main and Pierce in the sideboard. This is one of those things that can change though.

Totally agree. All I mean to say is that Spell Snare's performance is hit/miss based on matchup, and it's usefulness is really determined by the metagame. If Storm, Maverick, and Jund were a DTB's I'd be maindecking 2 copies, easy (regardless of Force of Will count) because of how good it is in those particular matchups. For now, in my local metagame, I can justify 1 Spell Snare main but that's about it. I don't have a lot of RUG Delver, people have jumped onto the Shadow bandwagon, which is as you say (Snare is bad against them.)

My correlation with Spell Pierce is in regards to the control matchups; Grixis and Miracles are both pretty soft to a Spell Snare (generally) because they have a bunch of juicy targets (Hymn, Snapcaster, Counterspell, Strix.) Spell Pierce also helps win counter wars, so you basically want both in those control matchups. I wasn't suggesting one over the other; Spell Pierce goes back and forth between main/side for me (again, that is because I only have 1 Force ATM.)