[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Hey guys, I have been a longtime lurker on these boards but never posted. This deck is by far my favourite and a couple weeks ago here in Ontario we had 2 legacy tourneys in one weekend. The first had 35 people and my landstill deck won the Mox!! Woot woot and the 2nd had 48 people with my deck making the Top 8 then losing to Merfolk. The field was relatively well represented seeing all the major decks and then some fun randoms as well. The point was that I wanted to share my decklist and then receive some thoughts/feedback regarding it. A few notes on the deck...I built this using all the ideas I saw/read and have used in the past (I haven't used Landstill in Legacy in a long time) and I just procured the Moat so I definitely wanted to play it! :) Also, there were times when Moat resolved and the opponent literally had no Game 1 answer to it. BOOYAH! Ideas on improving the merfolk matchup would be great because that is one of the most difficult.

With no further ado...

2 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
4 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cunning Wish
1 Moat
1 Humility
2 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Force of Will
2 Decree of Justice
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tolaria West
2 Island
2 Plains

SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Extirpate
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Path to Exile
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Spell Snare
1 Crucible of Worlds

Hopefully I will be on here regularly from now on. And thanks in advance for the advice.

First of all gz to your finish.

There are some smaller parts in your list I don't like at all, wich are mainly the single E.Tutor and the lonly Top. Even if "random" might be the wrong word it looks like you could better play a 3rd Explosiv instead of the Tutor (even if he provides a faster way to get Moat / Humility online) and Top might be Eternal Dragon, Path or even FoF.
I'd play a 2nd Humility over Moat every time, but as it is your personal preference you should definitely keep it.
With a Crucible in your mainboard a 2nd or even a 3rd Wasteland (instead of Dustbowl/Mishra) looks worthwhile.

I suppose that the Spell Snares in your Sideboard are actually Spell Pierces?

cheers

Felidae_

This is the list where I went 94th place in Madrid with.

Match ups were

3* merfolk
2* painter servant
1* dreadstill
1* rock loam
2* zoo
2* ant
1* ichorid
1* faeries
1*combo elves


The list:

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Eternal Dragon
3 Vindicate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
1 Humility
3 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland


3 engineered plague
4 extirpate
4 Ethersworn canonist
3 Kitchen finks
1 Ajani gold-mane

Special thanks to Morbid- for some very sound last minute advice, to Steven from benelegacy (we almost never agree, but he has some very interesting views on the deck), and team MCG for testing.

I will write a little report when I have time & motivation. The experience was very exhausting :). I also don't have notes so it'll be a very sketchy report.

Congrats on the finish!

I know a little while back both Rogue and myself expressed an interest in playtesting Jace M. again, and I've done a little work with him. All in all, I'm impressed. I don't know if he's earned 2 slots in my build, but I think at this point a 1/1 split with FoF is in order. What I've noticed it that his bounce is pretty solid with standstill, and very relevant since not many decks but goblins can keep more than one threat on the table against us and he forces overextending. I've had some success trying to "lock" opponents out of the games by scrying them every turn, which has been marginallay successful. It's better against decks like reanimator or merfolk where they need certain cards instead of decks like zoo where they have a decent chance of drawing gas even with the top gas card gone. I'm not sure it's a better strategy than shooting yourself with it or the brainstorm looking for an elspeth, but his ultimate grows quickly and I've gotten a few wins with it, which FEELS good. My one issue right now is that I'm not sure if he's better than an Ajani Vengent or even Els#3.

Thoughts? Experiences?

@ Reagens,

Very impressive! You were a Day 2'er, I had hopes when I saw 4 LS lists in the 237 :smile:. I am glad to see some success from LS in this new year. Will there be a tournament report for us?

rsaunder, about Jace 2.0, I recommended the UWr List I played for a friend and he swapped -2 FoF for +2 Jace 2.0, and I am told it worked very well for him. You're correct in saying that the scry ability is diminished with threat density/library manipulation, but he was able to use the Ultimate more than a few times with protection from board sweepers and removal. I know you and I are part of the discussion on MTGS about Reanimator hate, and Jace seems to be a pretty good answer (better than my janky Tolaria West / Karakas tech, anyways) instead of my idea of using Curfew out of the board.

Unfortunately, I'm trying to build TES on a student's budget so it will be a while until I own my own pair of Jaces. I originally planned to play at SCG Indy, but it happens to be the Sunday right before Finals Week at Ohio State, so I probably won't be attending (sadly, Spring Quarter finals and graduation take place the first week of June, which is the SCG Philly Open... fml). Reanimator is popular right now and I was hoping to run the gauntlet with it, but oh well.

I'll see what I can remember from Madrid.

Round 1-3: bye

Round 4: Ichorid

Game 1: Great. My first nightmare match-up of the day :(. Game 1 I can stall just long enough to resolve humility. I have to play every dirty trick in the book (wasting my own animated factory among others) but eventually manage to win the game after I countered 3 hardcast golgari-grave-troll.
Game 2: The game swings back and forth after I slow him down with extirpate on his first and only dredge outlet. My 2 engineered plague get the axe (second one was deliberate since I was holding humility as well). I resolve a canonist as well and I can start some damage. Eventually the ground gets clogged and I wil be facing lethal next turn. He has a nacromoeba as well, so I can't fly in for the necessary damage with canonist (I had Elspeth). Eventually I play humility, setting everybody on the ground, I give canonist +3/+3 and flying for lethal damage.

Round 5: Merfolk
(I think against 1 of the Rossini's)

Game 1: merfolk does what it does best I think.
Game 2: I am force to break standstill twice and at a certain point he discards a lord of atlantis which cost him the game (I killed the other one in his hand).
Game 3: He has to mull to 4 or 5 and has no lands.When he does get the lands he's to far behind.

Round 6: Saito ANT.

Game 1&2: this wasn't even close. I got the snot beaten out of me. Very bad match-up.

Round 7: Merfolk

Again? I can’t believe my luck . I don’t remember much, but I was VERY happy with kitchen finks.

Round 8:
Painter/servant. After a protracted game 1 I lose.
Game 2 sees me staring at painter and grindstone extirpated, but since he can red blast every relevant spell I see, he kills me anyway.

Round 9: Faeries
2-1
Engineered plague saves the day twice after I lost game 1 to a turn 2 bitterblossom. Beats from kitchen finks helped as well.

Day 2:

Round 1:
Merfolk. AGAIN!!! I curse my luck yet again and get going. Game 1 Merfolk does what is is supposed to to and game 2 I just can’t keep up with his tempo.

Round 2:
Painter/servant
I win game 1 on humility (I know painter still ‘paints’ everything, but my opponent scoops anyway)
Game 2: at a certain point he has painter in play. I play eot FoF with him having 1 red open. Predictably he has red blast (FoF was bait anyway). I extirpate his FoW to make sure vindicate resolves in my turn and I extirpate painter as well.

Round 3:
Rock loam something with loam, FoW, intuition, crop rotation and many other strange choices.
Game 1: it is too difficult to get grips with the deck and I lose when he sets up a loam engine
Game 2: I win 5 minutes before time is called with some lucky draws and barely hanging in. He stalled for the entire game 2 (enough to matter, not enough to call a judge)
Game 3: I decide a draw is the maximum for me and as such I decide to employ his own tactic. He is probably 1 attack phase short of killing me. I feel very little sympathy for him since he did it to himself.

Round 4:
Zoo:
Game 1&2: I just see too much removal and have enough CA to matter. Game 2 I play around his (very obvious) PoP

Round 5:
Combo elves:
Game 1: I win barely but it’s a win nonetheless.
Game 2: I have plagues and I was sandbagging my humility for his krosan grips he never boarded in)

Round 6: Dreadstill
Game 1: I have the perfect hand with 2 explosives and other shenanigans and still get beaten after killing his first 3(!!) dreadnoughts because I drew lands for 7 turns and not 1 was an answer to his relentless factory. What a frustrating thing.
Game 2: Once again I am screwed over when I am under blood moon and getting bludgeoned by a trinket mage and I topdecked 5 lands in a row (yes I pile shuffle after EVERY game). One of the most frustrating moments in my magic career ever 

Round 7: ANT
Very strange.
Game 1 my opponent is completely exhausted and ad nauseams himself to death when he could have stopped and killed me anyway.
Game 2 he loses yet again because of his own decisions, instead of my great magic skills…

Round 8: Zoo
Game 1&2: He has al lot of tempo and I have nothing and I see even less (I had to mull).

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

Congrats on the finish!

I know a little while back both Rogue and myself expressed an interest in playtesting Jace M. again, and I've done a little work with him. All in all, I'm impressed. I don't know if he's earned 2 slots in my build, but I think at this point a 1/1 split with FoF is in order. What I've noticed it that his bounce is pretty solid with standstill, and very relevant since not many decks but goblins can keep more than one threat on the table against us and he forces overextending. I've had some success trying to "lock" opponents out of the games by scrying them every turn, which has been marginallay successful. It's better against decks like reanimator or merfolk where they need certain cards instead of decks like zoo where they have a decent chance of drawing gas even with the top gas card gone. I'm not sure it's a better strategy than shooting yourself with it or the brainstorm looking for an elspeth, but his ultimate grows quickly and I've gotten a few wins with it, which FEELS good. My one issue right now is that I'm not sure if he's better than an Ajani Vengent or even Els#3.

Thoughts? Experiences?

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I've played with Jace 2.0 a little bit, deffinitely performed his anti-Iona role well. I have swapped him with 2x FoF for now. Was hoping to get a lot of playing in last weekend, but my planned trip to Star City was unfortunately foiled by rediculous amounts of snow and Eli getting the flu. I'll try and offer some more insight once I've had a little more time with it.

Congratz to Philly and Reagens on their respective finishes.

@Reagens: Way to take it to Ichorid!

I love the simplicity of your sideboard, I think I've been over thinking things a lot.

I recently played this deck at the SCG 5K after not being able to borrow anything else. I had never played it before but it was alot of fun. I would like to make a newer updated list though I am unsure where to start. This is the list I played.

Artifacts
2 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

Enchantments
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
4 Swords To Plowshares

Planeswalkers
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
1 Crime / Punishment
1 Decree Of Justice

Basic Lands
1 Island

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip

Nantuko Monastery was awful almost every time I played it, either I didn't have w/g or I didn't have threshold. I will be cutting it for some other manland. Jace was amazing all day. I only ulted him 4 times, but whenever I cast him I was able to almost immediately take control of the game. I recommend trying him out if you haven't. Four deed, Two EE and One Crime/Punishment was way too many. I would want to cut those down. The DoJ was a stifle, but I wanted one extra win condition. I only cycled it once though it was helpful.

These were my matchups at the 5K
Rnd 1 Merfolk 2-1
I lost game two due to getting greedy and playing two EP.

Rnd 2 Zoo 2-0

Rnd 3 Merfolk 1-2

Rnd 4 Zoo 2-0

Rnd 5 Belcher 2-1

Rnd 6 Probant 2-1

Rnd 7 Zoo with Treetop Village 1-2

Rnd 8 Enchantress 1-0

Rnd 9 Reanimator 2-1


I was also wondering the reason behind dropping the colors down. I only had problems activating Monastery

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Originally Posted by NicefaceLOL

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I was also wondering the reason behind dropping the colors down. I only had problems activating Monastery

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There is another thread for 4c Landstill, you might be better off posting this there.

All the same, your list looks ultra greedy. I have trouble believing you were able to reliably cast anything with nine lands that don't produce colored mana in a four color deck.

Playing UW with a splash allows us to have a resilient, reliable manabase with a good number of basics so that we can avoid getting blown out by Wasteland and Blood Moon type effects.

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Originally Posted by RogueMTG

Playing UW with a splash allows us to have a resilient, reliable manabase with a good number of basics so that we can avoid getting blown out by Wasteland and Blood Moon type effects.

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Even the 3 colors manabase is borderline I think.
3-color landstill can withstand wasteland, stifle or vindicate but not a combination of. Recurring wasteland is a problem in itself when left unchecked.

Losses to merfolk can be largely attributed to the fact that you are not able to go to 4 mana in a timely fashion. As such their dazes, cursecatchers and other annoying things are practically impossible to get over. Post-board they probably play spell pierce for even further annoyance. This is why I chose Kitchen finks on the side (the fact that it is also good against Zoo is another bonus) and is also why I managed to go 2-1 against merfolk in matches.

@ Reanimator matchup: I think Faerie Macabere is the right answer to an increase in popularity. Uncounterable, undisenchantable, unduressable, instant speed pinpoint graveyard hate sounds pretty good right now.

here's a list i've been brainstorming on. Technically, it's a countertop deck, but I figured I would post it here because it is, in many ways, an evolution of Landstill. It features all of the same bombs and synergies, just not the iconic card-draw spell:

3 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
5 Island
5 Plains

2 Elspeth
2 Humility
2 Jace Beleren

3 Top

4 Swords
3 Journey to Nowhere

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Force
4 Spell Snare
3 Propaganda
2 Repeal

--Board
4 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Wrath of God
3 Krosan Grip

I have Journey to Nowhere instead of Path to Exile because it's 2cc better fills out the curve to make counterbalance more effective. I'm not sure if I'm going to keep repeals--I only like them because they can trip. Propaganda isn't final either--it could be switched out for Crucibles. And if I run crucible, then I'd probably dump a tundra or a basic for some dust bowls. The needles in the SB are primarily for Vial and Wasteland.

The list isn't that bad, though in some ways I don't think counterbalance belongs to the maindeck of landstill. However:
-i don't get the point in playing humility anymore. It's dead in many Mu's, dead in g2 after grip, too slow vs merfolk etc. I'd rather have doj or even wrath... I think that propaganda isn't that useful either, you don't run a mana denial plan to significatively take the advantage out of it, I'd rather use firespout which is nuts (I believe it's almost mandatory) in the fast aggro meta, helps vs ichorid as well (though ofc propaganda here is better), and comboes with humility.
-repeal: counterspell are just that better. If you wish to have bounce MD, you'd better run cunning wish, or simply try jace2.0 in the slots of old jace.
-journey to nowhere: path gets hit by cb. This gets hit by cb, stifle, grip, EE, spell snare...
-no standstill = no draw power (besides jace) + less 2cc's for CB.

i'd run:
3 Elspeth
3 Jace Beleren/cunning wish

4 Top
3 Brainstorm

4 Swords
2 Path to Exile
3 Firespout

4 Counterbalance
4 Force
4 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell

cc1: 17 (a little high)
cc2: 7 (a little low, but JtN is crap...)
cc3: 6 (good)
eventually you can substitute pat to exhile with helix, to raise the 2cc's. Still, you miss some big threath like dreadnought or goyf or whatever, but firespout should be able to shut off tribal and zoo. sb needle is not needed: EE is just that better against vial (and firespout is ofc THAT better vs tribal), and you just don't have to fear wasteland with 10 BASICS Plus needle is useless in many other cases.
3 reb
3 aura of silence (nuts vs ant too)
3 relic
2 faerie macabre
3 Kitchen Finks
1 jace the mind sculptor

(or obviously another if you choose to run wish again)

I disagree on Humility. IMO, the 4cc bombs like Humility, Elspeth, Moat (sometimes), DoJ and Fact are the only reasons left to play landstill, and of those cards, Humility and Elspeth are clearly the most powerful. There is no card that even comes close to humility's power when it comes to stomping on a certain strategy (in this case, creasture-based aggro) couple that with the fact that it combos with two other pivotal cards in your deck (elspeth, Manlands) and I think it is essential. The only matchup where it should be relevant, but could sometimes backfire is Aggro Loam, and that's because Crusher gets +1/+1 counters put on it. Part of the reason I thought of running Propaganda main is because its power compounds greatly with Humility.

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IMO, the 4cc bombs like Humility, Elspeth, Moat (sometimes), DoJ and Fact are the only reasons left to play landstill

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Of all these, I think the only reason left is Elspeth... Firespout in the fastened meta is superior to humility, and wrath is superior to humility in any case, being able to actually solve problems and not just to stall until you (hopefully) find a solution. The fact is, we need cards that do well on its own, not just in synergy with other cards, because sometimes we don't get the time to draw out all of our synergyes. And that's precisely the case of humility. All in all, nowadys I see it as the worst card in landstill, being good only vs zoo preside and ofc goblins, MU's that already are playable to favorable for us. Humility is irrelevant vs aggroloam, irrelevant vs reanimator (they just discard it before you can actually cast it, or just counter/bounce it), irrelevant vs dreadstill (we should have an edge on this MU already), totally useless vs aggrocontrol (we should beat them as well, exception made for countertop progenitus maube), clunky vs merfolk, too slow vs ichorid...Ofc good vs zoo and gobbos, but here firespout >>> humility, as it is in many other cases. Propaganda as well is good only IF humility is out, but I'm starting to see too many IF's in your reasoning... (Also note firespout >>> propaganda: it works on its own, doesn't need other cards to work).

I wouldn't say that Humility is irrelevant vs AggroLoam... it nullifies 8 of their beaters (goyf, vore) and, most importantly, Nullifies Confidant. This leaves them to rely on a Crusher, which must have grown before Humility came into play to be relevant. If you can get Humility in before they start growing a Crusher (not that hard), then the only path to victory they have left is Seismic Assault, and you can shut that down by using CB to lock Loam--or by just countering Assault. How is Humility irrelevant vs Dreadstill? Or any other Aggro-Control deck? Last time I checked, they all relied upon creatures to win.

Also, all these matchups where Humility is supposedly irrelevant are matchups where Firespout is irrelevant! Firespout will very, very rarely kill a Goyf a Vore or a Crusher. It will never kill a Dreadnought or a War Monk, or a Tombstalker or a Progenitus. Hell, you probably cant even kill a Trygon or a Clique unless you're splashing green.

As for Merfolk/Zoo/Goblins-- all of these decks have ways of recovering, in some cases very, very quickly (ringleader, Sylvan Library, Standstill will almost always be in Merfolk's favor) from sweeper effects. Alternatively, they can play around them by trying to slow roll you and exhaust your spot removal. There is no recovering from Humility. Either your remove it or you lose.
Goblins have no answer, except maybe Anarchy, Zoo could get grip after boarding and Merfolk have Echoing truth--but you have answers to those answers in the from of 3cc Counterbalance (grip, most everything) and/or Force (everything else)

As for Firespout vs Propagada--Firespout is better. I just started off with Propaganda in my list because I was afraid I might not have enough blue cards for Force. But I'll dump JTN for Mana Leak. As for repeal--I think maindeck bounce is really good against decks like Zoo, sometimes merfolk, because it helps you stall against 1cc threats like Nacatl or Vial. Repeal's built in cantrip makes it especially good at this role. Its flexible casting cost also makes it really good at removing an opposing counterbalance.

my new list:

3 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
5 Island
4 Plains
1 Mountain

2 Elspeth
2 Humility
2 Jace Beleren

3 Top

4 Swords
3 Firespout

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Force
4 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
2 Repeal

It's not true. Humility does not nullify a thing. Firespout does. Wrath does. Decree does, in some ways. Vindicate does. Swords/path do. EE do. And so on. All of aggroloam's beaters are in the range of EE... I think you have to worry much about LD than beaters, provided you can counter/get rid of chalice. Incidentally, 2/3 AL creatures fall under spell snare (confi & goyf). Humility is nearly irrelevant, post-sb is worse vs. grip; beaters post-sb are kept at bay by relic, no need for humility. And aggroloam have so many other ways to be annoying. Humility is irrelevant vs dreadstill and I always board it out. The reason is simple: if they want to beat us they must play the control deck i.e. first resolve counterbalance. If they can't, then we face a more or less crappy deck with 8 creatures that fall under EE/path/stp = more or less 11-12 removals for 8 creatures, some of which recurrable with ruins. Goyf is kept at bay by elspeth, no need to waste counters/removals on him, we can concentrate on nought (only 4, and more stifle on our fetches the less for nought). No need for humility. Irrelevenat because redundant vs any aggrocontrol deck: we should win vs bant and the like, period. Mirror: dead. Enchantress: almost dead.

The claim that firespout is irrelevant in all these Mu's you mentioned is silly. Post-sb vs loam use relics and then firespout and you have pretty much the same effect of perish. Vs dreadstill you have more removals than his creatures, side spout out for rebs which own counterbalance which is your only concern against dreadstill. Vs bant bring in rebs too, I hear they help vs clique and trygon and RWM as well, without need of humility. And still they kill exalted guys. Standstill owns this deck, but you don't run the best card of thearchetype, so what? The basic principle here is the same: you have more answers than their threats, keep the counters for order and that's all. And hell, if you're stupid enough not to save a stp for an upcoming Tombstalker, then you should revisit your playstile. I really don't get the point in wasting removals on non-flying creatures when elspeth keeps the ground stalled on its own. So arguments vs spout here really aren't strong, reb pretty much covers its supposed irrelevance in some MU (and it's a wrath effect, so ofc it should be more or less dead in controllish mu's, but the same is true for humility, and more true if I may say).

Marfolk/zoo/goblins have ways to recover very quicly. Yes and not. They have ways to recover quick after a 4cc wrath, or 5cc in the case of merfolk, but by that turn you could already be dead. They can't recover very fast from a 3cc wrath, plus spout dodges grip and gaddock which is HUGE! If they play slow they simply lose, becose they lose tempo. You resolve elspeth and trade 1/1, 2-3/1 with spout and EE, and they're out of the game (unless they finish you with burn spells). Mind that vs merfolk you are boarding in 3+ additional swords as well (namely: reb). Goblins have no answer to firespout as well, and firespout comes down a turn before: also, requires less specific mana and so it's far more relevant having firespout vs humility under port/waste attack. Firespout vs humility in zoo: simply >>>; you realy prefer having a weak solution on the board or actually trhow to hell all opposing creatures? Well, no doubt I prefer the 2nd, I don't give targets to grip (so +2-3 dead cards in my opponent's deck, and there's always CB) and I don't have to waste a removal or a counter on gaddock, for his little to no problem since it block only fow, which incidentally I sometimes side out (tx Citrus for the hint). Resutl: firespout >>> humility in tribal/zoo MU.

JtN for mana leak. Don't. Use paths. Counterspell are not suited for an aggro meta, removals are.

Side note: just try not to use humility. Test, and you'll see you can do well without that card, it's not necessary not even cool anymore.

Wow. If you don't get that Humility is awesome in Landstill, I don't get why you play the deck. Elspeth sucks. She's only good when something like Humility is in play. Decree sucks. It's so mana-intensive that it's more unrealistic to depend on that then Humility. Decree only becomes good when Humility is out. Manlands suck because Wasteland is everywhere and so is Swords. Humility makes your manlands better than every creature your opponent casts. Landstill is such an awkward deck, it needs to play something as overwhelming to the board state as Humility. I have literally never lost a game once Humility resolved against a creature-based deck. I'm not even exaggerating. The only problem with Humility is that it costs four. Firespout obviously gains value when Humility is out, as well.

While we're on the topic, Wrath is not better than Humility. Humility singlehandedly takes a deck with the worst win conditions in the format and makes them the best. Wrath just temporarily clears the board. If you have any idea how to play Magic, Humility pretty much does the same thing as Wrath of God while continuing to make your win conditions better. Firespout isn't even better than Wrath of God, it's just cheaper. The reason I run Firespout is because it's largely for the same decks Wrath of God is for and has excellent synergy with Humility which is better than both. Who cares about Krosan Grip or whatever removal they may bring in for it? You stopped playing sideboard cards that improved matchups, too? It's only a one-for-one trade. Who cares?

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

@ Reanimator matchup: I think Faerie Macabere is the right answer to an increase in popularity. Uncounterable, undisenchantable, unduressable, instant speed pinpoint graveyard hate sounds pretty good right now.

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Yes, this. Faerie Macabre is a great graveyard hate answer in this meta. I'm playing 2x Faerie Macabre, 1x Tormod's Crypt and 1x Relic of Progenitus as my GY hate suite at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Hitman82

Wow. If you don't get that Humility is awesome in Landstill, I don't get why you play the deck.

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Elspeth? Standstil? TOOOOOOONS OF REMOVALS which s why the deck is so good vs aggressive and aggrocontrol decks?!? Non just for humility, otherwise play MWC it's better.

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Elspeth sucks. She's only good when something like Humility is in play. Decree sucks. It's so mana-intensive that it's more unrealistic to depend on that then Humility. Decree only becomes good when Humility is out. Manlands suck because Wasteland is everywhere and so is Swords. Humility makes your manlands better than every creature your opponent casts. Landstill is such an awkward deck, it needs to play something as overwhelming to the board state as Humility. I have literally never lost a game once Humility resolved against a creature-based deck. I'm not even exaggerating. The only problem with Humility is that it costs four. Firespout obviously gains value when Humility is out, as well.

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If you state that Elspeth sucks and decree is only good with humility out, then it's probably you that need to ask yourself if you got any idea of how to play landstill. The latter is capabe to make you abuse of early standstills which is your main draw engine, the former keeps the board forcing opponents to overextend and that's when your x:1 removals have a chance and a sense to work. Humility is no token-producer, no wincondition, no better board keeper than elspeth. If you're able to lose a game with Elspeth in play either you were too far behind and in any case you would've lost, or maybe you have built the deck uncorrectly, or maybe you have done some play mistakes.. You state that you never lost a game with humility out vs a creature based deck. Well man, we need to win matches, non just games.

However, I'm not stating that humility is crap. It's still a bomb, if taken in itself. I do love that card and it's not without complain I left it aside. But a card can be good on its own, and then completely unusable in the format. That's because she MUST stick on the board for it to actually do something;against faster aggros, either it comes down to late, or post sb gets gripped away (1:1 trade? say it to a progenitus on the other side of the field!); against aggocontrol decks, you should be able to win with or without humility, elspeth wins alone (if you're not able, then change deck). and so on. It's not that humility is crap, it's that the meta is too fast for it to become relevant, and that you should simply win creature-based decks without humility, because elspeth has so much synergyes with the rest of the deck that you totally neglect, and furthermore the deck is designed to have a positive aggro MU, whether you play humility or not. Also:
- delaying a problem is not resolving a problem.
- a card that does not improve the merfolk MU is sensless.

I say: try to focus on elspeth and play without humility. The sensation of "easy win" with humility may be just a sign of its redundancy. However, I find silly that anyone is actually trying to discredit Elspeth nowadays...

Quote:

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While we're on the topic, Wrath is not better than Humility. Humility singlehandedly takes a deck with the worst win conditions in the format and makes them the best. Wrath just temporarily clears the board. If you have any idea how to play Magic, Humility pretty much does the same thing as Wrath of God while continuing to make your win conditions better. Firespout isn't even better than Wrath of God, it's just cheaper. The reason I run Firespout is because it's largely for the same decks Wrath of God is for and has excellent synergy with Humility which is better than both. Who cares about Krosan Grip or whatever removal they may bring in for it? You stopped playing sideboard cards that improved matchups, too? It's only a one-for-one trade. Who cares?

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If you are just able to read, Humility and Wrath of God DON'T pretty much do the same thing. The only sensed comparison is between Humility and Elspeth, and no doubt my choice will go to Elspeth in the everfastening meta. But I don't bother if you play humility again. If you'd just take the pain to play without humility, you'll see that you lose little to no synergyes and save 2 slots. We don't need hyper-redundancy, redundancy is just fine. But please don't say bullshits like Elspeth is crap and decree is crap...

EDIT#1: Also, I don't mean to be the best landstill player of the world. This cannot be. But at least, if people better than me and you at playing landstill more or less don't play humility anymore, than you should ask yourself: "can it be the case that I am absolutely and without any doubt right ont this matter"? Not to say you're wrong, just to be less "sure".

EDIT#2: I think my side of the querelle can be expressed as such: you certainly can play humility, but if you test without, you'll discover that you don't need to play humility.

Alright, as someone who has been playing landstill for a while now with moderate success in the current meta, (Top 8'd Jupiter Games 170+ Lotus tournament, multiple top 16s/9th places in 70-80 mans) I have to say that Humility is far and away the best card in the deck, I have not lost a game that Humility resolved. It wins games nothing else can and synergizes with every win condition in the deck. "Zomg they can Krosan Grip it!" just isn't enough reason to not play it.

Can you win games without it? Of course... Landstill is not a one trick pony. You can also win games without Standstill, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the deck.

Firespout blows against Natural Order decks that have become really popular around here, and as you said the deck is already designed to beat creature decks so what do you need it for? Firespout is basically pre-boarding against weenie tribal decks, and god awful against everything else.

Humillity just wins against all of the decks to beat except Merfolk (although I have beaten merfolk with Humility before) but you're probably losing to them anyway.

@gustha

Sorry when I have to say this, but you are completly wrong on the humility topic. Generally I agree with Hitman, but I still think Decree is a great card on its own and the perfect finisher for this deck (and I think Hitman would agree on this). There are some cases when you can cycle the Decree only for somthing like 3 and not for >8. In these cases, the Decree would still be game breaking while a Humility is in play.

Hitman wrote:
"Manlands suck because Wasteland is everywhere and so is Swords. Humility makes your manlands better than every creature your opponent casts."
For me this is a very strong argument.
Overall Humility synergizes perfectly with the deck (manlands, decree, elspeth).

"I have literally never lost a game once Humility resolved against a creature-based deck."
As I memory: I lost ONE game in 5 years playing landstill with Humility in play (vs creature based decks). This seems strong for me. And it wasnt just a win-more-card.


First gustha, you compare Humility with elspeth and wrath/firespout but we mention to play them ALL. So what cards would you play in the Humility slot, so we can compare them? I have posted my last list a few pages ago.

You wrote: "and wrath is superior to humility in any case, being able to actually solve problems and not just to stall until you (hopefully) find a solution."

This obviously wrong and I dont want to explicate this in detail but Humility says: Your opponent cant win with creatures, where Wrath says what it written on the card.

"All in all, nowadys I see it as the worst card in landstill"
Well, for me its one of the best.

You try to analyse some matchups in detail.

"Irrelevenat because redundant vs any aggrocontrol deck: we should win vs bant and the like, period."
Well aggrocontrol just scoops when humility enters play. It is relevant. All you have to do is, just resolve it.
There are aggro-control matches were you cant just trade 1 for 1 with your instant removal because
a) they play to many creatures (and firespout does nothing vs goyf, stalker, clique, war monk etc.)
b) they play balance ->shuts down your removal
c) survival
d) u could not resolve a standstill. Which is not very uncommon because you give them nearly no other targets for their spell snares.
c) they have the nice threshold-nuts-draw

So why do we have such a great aggro control matchup? Because they have only 4 Forces for our bombs like Elspeth AND Humility.
In the dreadstill matchup are you right, Explosives handle them.

Overall Humility is great in these matchups:
Aggro control (especially vs bant survival. I mean without Humility how do you want to handle survival? Sure you can counter it, but it can happen that a Survival resolves when you play against Survival and you scoop.)
Aggro loam
reanimator
gobbos
all creature based decks.....

Humility is weak against:
Merfolk
Mirror (oh yeah^^)
Combo
Burn
Enchantress (Well you are right, but they can still shut down their Arg. Enchantress)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gustha

Humility is no token-producer, no wincondition, no better board keeper than elspeth. If you're able to lose a game with Elspeth in play either you were too far behind and in any case you would've lost, or maybe you have built the deck uncorrectly, or maybe you have done some play mistakes..

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I mean comparing elspeth with Humility makes no sense since we play them both and they fulfill different roles (elspeth is a win condition, Humility something rather like a Wrath) but lets ingore this for a moment:

First scenario: Opponent has a random (big) creature in game and lets say 2 creature removal in hand (which is not very uncommon as we dont play creatures)

Now you can play either Elspeth or Humility:
Elspeth: Is dead after 2 rounds but saves you several lifes.
Humility: You loose 2 life through attacker. Opponent has a major problem.

Second scenario: Opponent has 2 or more creatures in play or one flying creature.
Elspeth: dies. Saves you life.
Humility: You can stall the game like forever. Opponent has a major problem.

Third scenario: Clear board.
Elspeth: Beatdown plan.
Humility: Stalling.

Quote:

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However, I'm not stating that humility is crap. It's still a bomb, if taken in itself. I do love that card and it's not without complain I left it aside. But a card can be good on its own, and then completely unusable in the format.

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Humility is still a bomb in the actual meta, because creature based strategies havent changed (a exception would be merfolk ). It shines also vs bant survival which is getting more popular.

Quote:

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That's because she MUST stick on the board for it to actually do something

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Yes, right.^^

Quote:

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;against faster aggros, either it comes down to late,

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What is faster aggro, zoo or goyf sligh or gobbos? Vs zoo and goyf sligh the burn is the problem. Vs. gobbos Humility is the best card in your deck.

Quote:

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or post sb gets gripped away

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Oh, then you play it wrong.

Quote:

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It's not that humility is crap, it's that the meta is too fast for it to become relevant, and that you should simply win creature-based decks without humility, because elspeth has so much synergyes with the rest of the deck that you totally neglect, and furthermore the deck is designed to have a positive aggro MU, whether you play humility or not.

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Yes the meta is getting faster, therefor you have to increase the number of instant removal in my opinion.
I dont aggree that you simply win creature based decks. Well you are well equipped but its often not that easy.
With Humility and elspeth you have a 80% or higher matchup vs for example ugw balance thresh. I guess its lower without humility, but dont know as I play Humility.

Quote:

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Also:
- delaying a problem is not resolving a problem.
- a card that does not improve the merfolk MU is sensless.

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Sorry but delaying solves here the problem. As I mentioned I nearly always win with Humility in play, because it reduces their clock from lets say 2 turns to something like 10 turns...
Yes, Humility doesnt shine against merfolk but elspeth is also not very nice. So elspeth is sensless? This would be your conclusion? Doesnt seem very solid that the merfolk matchup is all that matters. Merfolk is just a meta game deck, that is on its own a crap deck.

Quote:

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I say: try to focus on elspeth and play without humility. The sensation of "easy win" with humility may be just a sign of its redundancy. However, I find silly that anyone is actually trying to discredit Elspeth nowadays...

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Humility is not redundant, its game breaking.
And come on, nobody discredit elspeth. We all play her.


EDIT: Another point:
When you dont play Humility, I think there is no reason to dont play goyf.

I think all of your arguments simply prove my points, instead of the contrary as you think. Then klaus, citrus, geoff and the like play landstill wrongly or just don't know how to play landstill because they don't play humility? I think this is not the case, maybe they are more good at playing the deck because they can win without. ("And come on, nobody discredit elspeth. We all play her." Incidentally, dear i_need_extra_turns, Hitman stated in his post that elspeth and decree both suck without humility, statement that is completely false and denotates either a comment made just for the sake of saying something or an absent testing of the deck without humility - and I hope tertium non datur.)

However, please stop talking theory without grounds.
1. try to play without humility and then speak, at least: you would maybe reconsider humility as a merely nice-to-have. And just try to read every single line I write, not just the ones that seem useful for your points: I still consider humility as gamebreaking! The fact that it is redundant in landstil, nowadays (I played it before and I loved it and still love it, I even wrote it, so your counter-arguments here are just hot air...), this fact does not mean that the card is crap, and if you don't see the difference it's not a problem of playing magic.
2. All in all, you forgot where the discussion started: antonius proposed list! his list wants to abuse cb lock to generate virtual CA, doesn't use standstill to generate real CA, and doesn't have EE or another form of mass removal. By the time he can set up cb lock and cast humility playing around dazes, he's just too far behind. That's when the discussion started. So please would you all mind to stop making abstract theory (I really don't care what you think of humility in abstract) and contextualize the role of humility in antonius' suggested list? Thanks.

EDIT: this is to say that you have mistaken: I was not talking on theoretical grounds, in fact I have some list with humility still in, though I'm not playing it atm in the lists I bring to tournaments! I was questioning humility in antoniu's list, with MD CB, and that's not the same ground!

Gustha, let me explain a little better. When I say Elspeth sucks, it's because she costs four in a format dominated by two drops. She only makes a 1/1 token every turn and, if you're not under pressure, pumps a token. I say Decree sucks for the same reason. It's too mana intensive in relation to the rest of the field's threats. You can't compare Elspeth and Tarmagoyf threat-wise. There's no comparison. These are simply endgame finishers. All I was saying is Legacy is a creature dominated format. Why wouldn't you play a card that challenges most all the preconceived notions of the format? Not only does it weaken your opponent's plan but very much strengthens your own plan at the same time. The reason I can feel confident playing Firespout in my new list is because I play Humility. If I didn't, I wouldn't play Firespout either. If you don't play Humility, you should be playing three Wrath of Gods.

And really, we're not that weak to Merfolk unless you walk into their Dazes. Game two gets worse when they bring in Spell Pierce but you're bringing in cards too. I think a lot of Landstill players fail to beat yet another creature based deck that's slower than Zoo because they make too many mistakes.

Lastly, Gustha, I use to not play Humility. These aren't bunk theoretical grounds I'm talking about. The fact of the matter is, Humility singlehandedly makes your deck strategically superior. There's no reason not to play a card that beats the ever-living crap out of the most popular archetypes in the format. I use to play Cunning Wish too but I thought it sucked and was unnecessary, much like you think Humility is. I'm not one of those players who thinks I can make my deck have game to everything in every matchup, though. I don't think playing Cunning Wish does that anyway. I've tried a lot of things and Humility is by far the best. I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you so don't take offense at what I said. I'm not a subtle person so take that for what it's worth.

Just won a small local tournament (26) with this:
„UWR LS 2010“
draw/filter:
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace Beleren -------------------------------------------------will be Mindsculptor, soonish, I guess.
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

stall/win cons:
2 Kitchen Finks--------------------------------------------------------------meta choice, wouldn't have gotten there without them
2 Elspeth, Knight’s Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant-------------------------------------------------MVP
1 Vedalken Shackles

creature hate:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Firespout
3 Engineered Explosives
[1 Vedalken Shackles]
[2 Kitchen Finks - oftentimes acts as pseudo-removal]

counter suite:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

mana base
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Island
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 AcademyRuins

SB:
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Counterbalance
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Dismantling Blow (I like it better than Aura of S. due to the presence of Pridemage)
2 Firespout
1 Jace Beleren (will be Mindsculptor)
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Round 1: RBG Goblins - Firespout>Wrath
Round 2: Pro Bant - Firespout wasn't too bad here. (Hierarch, Pridemage, Arbor) - anyway, I play more than enough removal
Round 3: Glimpse Elves: - Firespout>Wrath
Round 4: Dredge - G2 Finks beatdown ftw :cool:, G3: Relics (Also: Firespout>Wrath)
Round 5: Supreme Blue - triple Planeswalkers get there. (yeah, Wrath>Firespout)

Some explanations:
Yeah, I don't play Humility/Wrath and there are several reasons for that - here are a few:
- the creature hate suite has been working just fine for me.
- I cut Wraths a while ago because most of the time it simply traded 1-1
- which is why the mana investment->profit ratio just seemed skewed.
- I run Firespout because it handles swarm aggro, zoo and the likes formidably, while decks packing goyfy guys get handled with 6 stps, 3 EEs, Elspeth and Ajani. (I'm aware of the fact that CB poses a more severe threat to this list than to the more conventional lists)
- Note: the cheap removal approach will only work with jace (and vice versa) because it requires a rather steady stream of extra-cards - while Jace needs constant protection, with Wrath being a sub-optimal solution here
- wrath/humility also simply feel a bit too slow atm
---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hitman82

Gustha, let me explain a little better. When I say Elspeth sucks, it's because she costs four in a format dominated by two drops. She only makes a 1/1 token every turn and, if you're not under pressure, pumps a token. I say Decree sucks for the same reason. It's too mana intensive in relation to the rest of the field's threats. You can't compare Elspeth and Tarmagoyf threat-wise. There's no comparison. These are simply endgame finishers.

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That's not true. Elspeth and decree are primarly board keepers... the format is dominated by creatures as ever has been since magic is born (that's why control and combo deck exist, to beat the living hell out of creature-based decks), but the math in playing landstill remains the same: opponent does not overextend or he gets punished by our mass removals. elspeth keeps the board and forces opponents to overextend till they get punished by our mass removals against swarm aggro and against aggrocontrol it's basically a time walk every turn and this is even more true thanks to exalted mechanic, which punishes opponent's creatures which attack alone. So the math remains: either the opponent attacks with a bunch of creature and I can handle it with spot removals and infinite chumblockers (which, at some point, become indestructible: whooooa nice thing!) or he overextends and fall under the range of my mass removals, being advantageous because they can x:1 the opponent. When the opponent is out of gas, finishes creatures and so on, that's the time to race: elspeth turns to wincondition! This is a thing humility can't do. And I say you can keep the board without humility too. Though, ofc, humility + elspeth = game over!

Quote:

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Lastly, Gustha, I use to not play Humility. These aren't bunk theoretical grounds I'm talking about. The fact of the matter is, Humility singlehandedly makes your deck strategically superior. There's no reason not to play a card that beats the ever-living crap out of the most popular archetypes in the format.

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Again, I don't doubt that this is true! I can subscribe this sentence all my life. But the fact is, THERE ARE reasons not to play a card that beats etc. etc. Being slow in the current meta is one of them. Being absolutely no more relevant than Elspeth (if you look at her the right way and play her correctly: she does not need to depend on humility to be BROKEN!) in the 98% of the cases it's another one, and so on. From my point of view, in a time when landstill can't cover the whole field as once, I must be more selective on cards I really need in order to win, and Humility is not one of those. Though absolutely gamebreaking, she's not able to win the game by itself (you still need wincondition!), and this lack of versatility is enough to keep her out of my current lists. You see, there really are reasons, which I consider relevant, not to play humility.

Quote:

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I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you so don't take offense at what I said.

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I wasn't either, so forgive me if it sounded so. However, the starting point of the discussion was: is humility good in the list Antonius proposed? I suggested that wrath would have done better, because by the time he can set up the cb lock he might be too far behind or humility to be effective...

@klaus: nice! I was considering KF in the main too, I tested jace 2.0 and found it quite good, but needed a cc3 card for counterbalance maindeck (especially for the rock MU). KF seems like the perfect choice. Not sure on the shackles, but with KF in the 3rd firespout is not strictly needed. How does it work jace 2.0 for you? Which ability do you use more often?

@ gustha
To summarize your points:
1. Although Humility beats, we dont need it. Elspeth does the job on its own.
2. Humility is no win-condition.

And to respond to your starting point: "Is humility good in the list Antonius proposed?"
I think you can be right that wrath would be the better choice but I also think - and let me say this as gently as i can - Antonius list (the older one) is not a optimal list. I see many landstill list on the internet (especially on other forums) which I think are not a good choice or outdated. And I dont want to discuss this on detail because the arguments have already been said several times. So it comes for me to the following question:
Should we play Humility? Referring to one of the following lists:

Hitman:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Firespout
2 Humilty
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

My list
UWr
23 Lands

4x FoW
3x Counterspell
3x Spell snare

4x Standstill
4x Brainstorm
2x SDT

4x Swords
2x Path to exile
3x explosives
2x Firespout

2x Elspeth
2x Humility
2x Decree


I think yes, we should play this.

Second Part follows.


EDIT: Second Part

Referring to your arguments, gustha.

Ad 2: -
-We play the same finisher, which are normally 2 Elspeth 2 Decree and Manlands. (Someone play 3 decree or ajani etc, but these are the major finisher)
- Humility doesnt need to be a win condition because we already play the same win conditions and when we resolve humility we win. So this isnt an argument for me.

Ad 1:
Well, I really like Elspeth and I think she perfectly fits in the deck, but there are matchups where we need Humility. For example DTB Bant survival. Elspeth sucks against a resolved survival.
And gustha your plan looks nice to force an overextend from the opponent and then wipe the board. But Firespout doesnt kill goyf or flyers. Lets say your Opponent has a board of 2 Tarmos or a board of 1 Tarmo and a rhox war monk. Here you will miss wrath.

The questions should be: Are there better cards for the Humility slot in Landstill?
I havnt found them. The card that comes this very close would be Fact or Fiction for me.


@Klaus and gustha

You say Humility is too clunky or too slow in the current meta. Klaus list looks like ultimate walker with standstill instead of ancestral vision (which is crap compared to standstill as we all know) and is even more clunky that the lists I have posted. He plays three cc4 cards in addition to elspeth. This would be too slow for me. Jace 1.0 was always very bad in Landstill and when I compare Jace 2.0 with Humility, no question what would I pick.

Wtih increment of combo fame...isn't this list too anti - cretures?? Swords + Path + EE + Firespout + Humility = wowowoowow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by i_need_the_extra_turns

For example DTB Bant survival. Elspeth sucks against a resolved survival.
.

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Why exactly??

Landstill is traditionally bad against combo game one. Unless you played cheaper countermagic or Counterbalance, your matchup isn't going to noticabely improve. Because the majority of decks in Legacy are creature-centric, we opt to prepare for them in the mainboard and address dredge and combo out of the board. If you expect a lot of combo, don't play Landstill because you'll be sacrificing the majority of your matchups to address a fair number of combo decks.

Elspeth sucks against Bant Survival, specifically, because they name white when they get an Iona into play and you can't race their 7/7 with your (at best) 4/4.

So, with how this quarter at school is working out, I've decided to play at the SCG 5K in Indianapolis tomorrow. Unfortunately, I haven't tested or played a whole lot since the last Meandeck Open (a good 3 weeks), so I will not only be rusty, but my list will (have to) be the same. I couldn't borrow Jace 2.0 in time, so I will be running with FoF and hoping for the best. I'm not worried about Zoo, I'm not worried about ANT (matchup is like 33/67 anyways, find a Counterbalance and pray). I am worried about Reanimator/Merfolk.

My performance at the Meandeck versus Merfolk was absolutely horrid, and while I can throw a little bit of the blame at g2 with not drawing any hate, that doesn't excuse my poor boarding plan. List for reference:


// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [MR] Plains (1)
2 [7E] Island (2)
1 [P2] Mountain (3)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [LG] Karakas

// Spells
3 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [SHM] Firespout
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [TE] Humility
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [REW] Lightning Helix

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast


How would you guys board against Merfolk? Reanimator? I have both plans drawn up, but I may not be using the correct method of thinking in either matchup. And for the record, changes I was going to implement if I could in time:

MD:
-2 FoF
-1 Dust Bowl
-1 Tolaria West
-1 Karakas

+2 Jace 2.0
+3 Wasteland


SB:
-1 Firespout
-2 Aura of Silence

+1 Wrath of God (I might still do this anyways)
+2 Dismantling Blow



Any feedback would be appreciated. I still think that Humility is useful at the moment, especially versus NO-Pro, Reanimator if you can stick it (one list at the last 5K ran zero bounce spells in the main), Zoo (although demonstrated by many including myself it is not needed g2 & g3). I will take my chances and have 2 in the main against for this one. It also helps freak pairings against random-dudes.dec, etc. Regarding the discussion, I'm sure that once my exams are over I could join in on it, Luca makes an excellent point in stating that Humility is dead in the versatility department. There are certain matchups that I regret having it, but it's difficult to cover every one of your matchups well.

One of my goals when I have the free time is to find a Humility-less list that I'm comfortable with. Still 4cc, still slow, and still not a win condition. I'll never, ever, play this list without Elspeth, btw.

I guess I'd board the 3 REB's and the 3rd Firespout against Merfolk, cutting 1-3 Standstills and 1-3 Forces (not sure about the correct number).
Against Reanimator I'd board the Relics/Faeries 4 CB's and 2 REB's, cutting the Explosives,Lightning Helix,Firespout,1 Path, 1 Ajani,1 StP.

Just my oppinion of course, good luck at the SCG 5K.

Edit.:

I'm not sure if this idea is great, stupid or just not worked out yet, but what do you guys think about this decklist?

Mana (23)
3x Tundra
3x Volcanic Island
2x Island
1x Plains
4x Flooded Strand
2x Saclding Tarn
4x Mishras Factory
3x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins

Removal (8)
4x StP
2x Explosiv
2x Firespout

Draw (10)
4x Standstill
3x Brainstorm
3x Top

Wincondition (6)
2x Elspeth
2x Decree
2x Dreadnought

Disruption (14)
4x FoW
3x Spell Snare
3x Spell Pierce
4x Stifle

SB:
4x Counterbalance
3x REB
2x Relic
2x Crypt
2x Firespout
2x Path

The basic idea should be self explained. I'm not quite sure about certain things:
-8 removal spells might be to low to handle aggro
-Spell Pierce, Counterspell or even Counterbalance ? or maybe +1 Spell Snare and +2 Maindeck removal?
-is Dreadnought a possible way to add another wincondition to the early/mid/late game?

I'm looking forward to you guys :D.

Well, epic fail from me today...

I installed the changes that I mentioned in my previous post. Started an abysmal 1-3 and knowing I was out of contention for T16 I sucked it up and finished 5-3 on the day before leaving for home after Round 8. A breakdown for anyone who is interested (obviously not tournament report worthy):

R1: NO-Pro. This round played out wonderfully for me, with a correct initial read of what I thought was Bant with Natural Order. He never had enough mana to stick a guy for NO, and I locked things up with Elspeth/Jace, prompting two concessions when Jace was @ 12 & 11 loyalty, respectively. A solid win to start the day. (2-0 games, 1-0 matches)

R2: BitterStandstill. This is against my buddy Will from home, which was sort of a freak pairing (what are the odds?). Unfortunately for me, shit hit the fan here. He chains all four of his Standstills game 1, and I couldn't keep up. Game 2 he boards in 3 Extirpate, hitting Force & Factory, and the mana issues didn't end there, and I wasn't able to get WW for Elspeth until much too late, Tombstalker hits the board and as I spin Top frantically for an StP, I hit Land, Land, SDT, Spell Snare, Land. Fml. (2-2 games, 1-1 matches)

R3: Bant Aggro with Elspeth. Still mana screwed. Not sure what was wrong with this list today, but pile shuffling and regular shuffling did nothing. I open the game with fetchland, Island, Top. Go Tundra --> Top, and fail to find a red source despite holding Firespout, Helix, Helix. Awkward loss. Game 2 is much of the same, until I get Elspeth out, and it looks like I can finally stabilize... until he plays his own, wiping out mine, and then finding another one. Flying Qasali Pridemage get there. (2-4 games, 1-2 matches)

R4: ANT. I'm fairly disgusted at this point, as I know that I can only make T16 with a shot in hell if I win out. So, I sit down across from my opponent and he goes Misty --> Underground Sea. I didn't even need to wait for the play. Duress, take Force, g2. Board in Counterbalance, take a risky hand with Tundra, Plains, but 2 FoW, 2 Spell Snare, but Elspeth, and didn't hit the third land until much too late. He decided to slow roll me. Worst. Feeling. Ever. (2-6 games, 1-3 matches)


So really, I almost decided to drop here, but one of my friends is 3-1 at this point, and I said fuck it and stayed in (not getting a ride home any time soon). I check my deck really quickly to make sure I even had Volcanic Islands. :rolleyes:

R5: TES. What are the odds? I didn't think I'd see one at this point, I mull to 6 and open with Plains, Mountain, StP, Helix, Firespout, Top. He plays Duress on his turn and takes Firespout. I spin SDT at the upkeep, see something like Explosives, X, X, he EtW's for 12 on his turn. I blow EE, and he doesn't recover. G2 I StP his first turn Xantid Swarm, and he doesn't draw another Land. By the time it's relevant, Factory has him beat pretty low and I have CB/Top in play. (4-6 games, 2-3 matches)

R6: Dredge. Dredge does what Dredge does g1. g2 I bring Macabres, Relics, and REB. Basically played "defend the Relic" for g2, as he decided to slow roll, but Relic into another Relic is pretty good against Dredge I hear, and we are off to g3. He decides to slow roll again and chooses to draw. I open with 2 Faerie Macabre. Jace actually joins the party for this one, and I get a rare moment where I pull off the ultimate against him. (6-7 games, 3-3 matches)

R7: Zoo. Finally. Matchup that I have been praying for... seems to be like clockwork. Firespout takes care of his early Wild Nacatl and Loam Lion, StP for bigger dudes. He eventually burns me down pretty low, but I find a Top, and Helix, Helix, Ajani (he eats it), but find Elspeth and start attacking for 4 each turn. I find Jace with Top, and start to Fateseal. He draws about 3-4 lands as Soldier Token gets there. g2 is similar, I land an early CB/Top and he seems to have not drawn any of his Krosan Grips. He has a hand full of 1-2 drops when he starts throwing things into Counterbalance. I hit almost everything except for Qasali... which eats an StP (no mana open to kill CB!). Elspeth and the lone Jace (boarded out copy #2) hold hands and skip to victory as he hits another long string of lands and 1cc cards for the rest of the game. (8-7 games, 4-3 matches)

R8: Zoo. Whee. This one was the dark variant, and ran Thoctar instead of KotR. Obviously, Thoctar is a little more resilient to Firespout, which made for an awkward g1 when I had in mind my usual plan of StP Goyf/bigger dude & Firespout little ones. I only get 1 StP effect in this matchup, and unfortunately it doesn't do anything, as he plays 2 more Thoctars. Really wish I had a Decree to stall, tbh. Anyhow, g2 and g3 I actually have access to a single WoG while I do an alternate boarding plan of -4 FoW, -2 Humility, -1 Jace 2.0 for +4 CB, +2 Dismantling Blow, +1 WoG (Relic doesn't seem to do anything here, and having an answer to Choke that can't be Needle'd is pretty good. I don't know the Dark Zoo list very well). WoG does its job here, helping wipe out the big guys like Thoctars/Goyfs while I am able to StP --> next turn Standstill both games, and each one ends with Elspeth on the table with ~10 loyalty and a 4/4 flying Soldier Token swinging every turn. g3 I do not draw CB/Top at all in this game, just Brainstorm & fetches, but I manage to get the trifecta of Planeswalkers into play, and to end the night, I do Jace's ultimate one last time... he put 4 cards in his library, Land, Krosan Grip, Krosan Grip, Krosan Grip. Rough.


So I end the night 10-8 games, 5-3 matches. It is obviously not my brightest moment. (EDIT: 56th out of 264 participants. Shudder.)


Comments: Humility did nothing, but it was probably because I didn't run into a matchup where it was relevant (Reanimator, Survival, etc). I'm really thinking about taking these out for a support spell like +2 Spell Pierce (would have been nice to have today). I also loved Jace 2.0, he is indeed insane, but since this is my first tournament with him, I can't tell if he is win-more/makes me careless and apply less pressure/whatever. Still need to test more. Because I'm poor as hell and can't afford my own Jace 2.0's (borrowed for the tournament), in the future I might still have to go with Fact or Fiction. All right, that's about it. Final tomorrow, so obviously things can be discussed a little later :tongue:

Actually Humility does nothing against Reanimator. It can't be reasonably cast before they get Iona out and what are the odds of SnTelling it? They board in their bounce anyway. It also is unnecessary against Survival, where you are so upperhand, that its like overkill.

Where it really shines is Goblins match up, but I guess goblins are rarely played now. Good against Bant, but I'd just prefer WoG here. Also your only reasonable chance of winning Dredge game1, if you manage to slow them down (doesn't work, usually). Overall, I'd just run more WoGs.

After some time of WWk launch...has anybody been interested or even tested celestial colonnade??

And considering iona and reanimator...propaganda??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Morbid-

Because I'm poor as hell and can't afford my own Jace 2.0's (borrowed for the tournament), in the future I might still have to go with Fact or Fiction.

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Cost considerations aside, it seems like Jace 2.0 > Fact or Fiction. You trade in the raw power of FoF in order to have more utility and a win condition rolled into one card. Thoughts on Jace 2.0 vs. Fact or Fiction in Landstill shells?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tinefol

Actually Humility does nothing against Reanimator. It can't be reasonably cast before they get Iona out and what are the odds of SnTelling it? They board in their bounce anyway. It also is unnecessary against Survival, where you are so upperhand, that its like overkill.

Where it really shines is Goblins match up, but I guess goblins are rarely played now. Good against Bant, but I'd just prefer WoG here. Also your only reasonable chance of winning Dredge game1, if you manage to slow them down (doesn't work, usually). Overall, I'd just run more WoGs.

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I would agree with you about Goblins, but playing in Ohio, you're bound to run into the Jonathan Benson Mono-R build somewhere (including the Meandeck Opens I generally play in). That list just T2'ed the Indy 5K. I do like WoG better for everything else, though. Against Reanimator the match is ugly enough anyways, but not a whole lot (besides Faerie Macabre, but of course you mentioned SnT) works against them. Until I find something else that can keep me alive against them, I don't know what to do. I do agree with you that it may be an answer that comes to late. After this tournament, without Karakas in the mana base I didn't feel too wonderful. Would have liked to have had an additional out than only Jace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

After some time of WWk launch...has anybody been interested or even tested celestial colonnade??

And considering iona and reanimator...propaganda??

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I didn't like Colonnade when it was first spoiled and I still can't get behind it. CiPT, takes 3UW to activate (but vigilance), seems like it's a huge investment for every turn you use it. To me it's the same deal as Tolaria West. Seems great in the mid-late game as a topdeck, pretty terrible if it's in your opening hand in a light-land situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Cost considerations aside, it seems like Jace 2.0 > Fact or Fiction. You trade in the raw power of FoF in order to have more utility and a win condition rolled into one card. Thoughts on Jace 2.0 vs. Fact or Fiction in Landstill shells?

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He was damn powerful. I need to test him more, since like I said I can't decide if he is win-more or not. He did seal up (literally) some games quickly, and allows you to sandbag cards in your hand as you apply Elspeth beats, for example.


I suppose I'll post some of my general comments/thoughts, as between my exam prep (2 and a final report in the past two days), I've had time to brainstorm (pun intended) a little bit more.


- Previous to the whole Reanimator debacle I stated on here that I believed that UWr Landstill was the best splash for Landstill. That's because I cited the decks to beat, and most frequently occurring, as Zoo, Merfolk, CounterTop, and ANT. Right now, we're looking at Reanimator becoming more popular and making noise, as well as Lands.dec pushing the same popularity. Aggro Loam, by the way, has always been a difficult matchup for me. So, per this information, the value in-game of Extirpate, in my opinion, has increased somewhat. Black gives access to Edict, Innocent Blood, whatever we need to get around Iona. I looked up the answers in RU... it's ugly.

- Even with 24 non-CiPT Lands and 3 SDT/3 BS, I found myself with mana issues at the 5K. It could be just horrible luck, but I also had a moment to reflect on the curve overall. There are 7 4cc cards in the MD. Granted that ~2-3+ are sided out depending on the matchup in general, I'm not completely worried about it, but I feel like the MD needs to have a better curve. That said, when I had 1-2 bombs on the table, things got pretty bad for the opponent, and thus I believe this deck can still keep its punishing late-game characteristic.

- Before the 5K, when I thought I couldn't get Jace, I considered some of the following changes, which may or may not agree with everyone here. First off: -2 Humility, +2 Spell Pierce. I agonized over finding something to replace Humility in this list, cutting the total 4cc bomb list down to five. A 1cc piece of countermagic seemed like the perfect fit here, basically serving as another piece of a counter-war, and stopping an early play that Spell Snare (or something you don't want to waste FoW on) couldn't. Another SB tech that I thought about was Envelope (U, counter target Sorcery), which seems to have a lot of applications in the metagame right now.

- I also considered, due to the nature of speeding the deck up a little, at the time -2 FoF +2 Impulse. My teammate Media314r8 on here and I had a chat regarding the usefulness of FoF versus someone with experience creating the piles, and I agreed with him that often times you're getting 1-2 cards max from it if they do it correctly. Knowing that my personal goal is to play amongst the best crowd that I possibly can, this seems to be a likely scenario I would run into. Impulse allows you to dig 4 deep, but doesn't help when you want 2 of the cards you see. However, it does allow you to dig for a specific answer a lot better, and in junction with SDT, etc, you have an ability to clear the top 3, get a fresh 3, giving you 7-deep access to your library. It's somewhat of a weird idea.


Anyhow, open to thoughts on all of this, of course. Let me know how you guys feel about it.

Personally, before I start running useless lategame stuff like Spell Pierce, I'd run maindeck gravehate: Relics. They always at least cantrip, hose a ton of decks and can be cast off any land. And probably fits into metagame.

I've stopped playing the deck a month ago though. Last tournament in my area featured 4 Reanimator decks and 4 Ichorid decks. Not a good field for Landstill. The last tournament I played with the deck, I've run the Black splash, because of extirpate and plague (and guess what, plague did nothing against merfolk I lost to).

As for tools to fight Iona maindeck in UWr, I think its possible without switching the splash. You have to run Tolaria West+Karakas, you have to run 2 Jace 2.0, and you have to run ~3 Cunning Wishes for Bounce. I also think, that Wish is a way to go for UWr versions. I've tried testing UWb with black removal maindeck - and it sucked. Deck becomes so unstable against Wasteland, I'd advise against it.

As for lands problems, its there. I've cut my colorless sources to 4 (Mishra's), also I'd probably run PTE and EE4 instead of Helixes due to mana problems. Makes deck a little more stable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tinefol

and you have to run ~3 Cunning Wishes for Bounce. I also think, that Wish is a way to go for UWr versions. I've tried testing UWb with black removal maindeck - and it sucked.

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Wish is a good option for iona. Go for doom blade and that's it or wipe away if don't run black.

Here's my list:

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Tundra
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
2 [TE] Wasteland
2 [RAV] Island (1)
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Swamp (4)
1 [R] Underground Sea

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [6E] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [TE] Humility
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [6E] Wrath of God
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [SOK] Sensei's divining top
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [JU] Cunning wish

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [FNM] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Doom blade / Slaughter pact
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 Echoing thruth
SB: 1 Return to dust
SB: 1 Path to exile (Really necesary??)
SB: 1 Pulse of the fields


EDIT: My bad! I just realize taht i posted the wrong list without wish!!
DB / SP will f*** Iona if they name white. Echoing thruth likes me against dredge (Ravenous trap does too) and belcher and TES. I'm not really sure if meddling mage is really necesary in 3x in this configuration together with extirpate. I was thinking on pithing needle to stop dangerous artifacts (vial, jitte, belcher and so on) on run 2 Counterbalance to replace its places against combo. Off course if i run balance i must add 1 additional top to my list...should i??

Quote:

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- I also considered, due to the nature of speeding the deck up a little, at the time -2 FoF +2 Impulse. My teammate Media314r8 on here and I had a chat regarding the usefulness of FoF versus someone with experience creating the piles, and I agreed with him that often times you're getting 1-2 cards max from it if they do it correctly. Knowing that my personal goal is to play amongst the best crowd that I possibly can, this seems to be a likely scenario I would run into. Impulse allows you to dig 4 deep, but doesn't help when you want 2 of the cards you see. However, it does allow you to dig for a specific answer a lot better, and in junction with SDT, etc, you have an ability to clear the top 3, get a fresh 3, giving you 7-deep access to your library. It's somewhat of a weird idea.

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Fact or Fiction is your endgame card. It doesn't matter if you only get two cards from it because it's the two cards you want/need. It digs five deep and punishes ignorance. It almost always gets what you need and if it doesn't, it cleared the way for your Brainstorm to find what you need.

Rergarding the number of four-drops, it doesn't necessarily matter if you have six-seven if you have enough ways to interact in the early turns where you're not in control. To me, the reason to play Landstill is the four-drops Fact or Fiction and Humility.

Quote:

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I've stopped playing the deck a month ago though. Last tournament in my area featured 4 Reanimator decks and 4 Ichorid decks. Not a good field for Landstill. The last tournament I played with the deck, I've run the Black splash, because of extirpate and plague (and guess what, plague did nothing against merfolk I lost to).

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Too true. Landstill seems particularly bad right now with combo and reanimator in larger numbers. The problem with Landstill is that it's a fair deck in an unfair format. The more fair the format becomes, the better Landstill becomes. When people are sending hordes of zombies at you on the third or fourth turn or you're getting stormed out on the second turn or you can't play white spells anymore somewhere in between the second and fourth turn, Landstill is just outclassed. When people attack with creatures, Landstill's more than strong enough.

Just split 1/2 in a small tournament with a redic. competitive meta. Pretty much fully powered decks and I thought I'd give my $.02 on the matchups I faced.

Round one: Cynthia with Merfolk

She starts slow without a vial, and I make a manabase. I counter a standstill, rip 2 factories and drop one of my own. 7 STP effects wins this matchup preboard. Factory beats go the distance with some help from Ajani.

Game two goes slow. She keeps shooting down my factories and I dont get an elspeth for forever. REB keeps things in check and I was holing a firespout as insurance the whole time. They cant hit your duals for fear of factories, which is nifty. I hit Ajani's ultimate twice and won with Jace M.'s ultimate.

Round 2: Kyle with Bant Survival

I don't remember what exactly got me game one, I think it was like 3 goyfs after he resolved a survival and I'd kept Iona out of play. UGLY.

Game two I counter lots of survivals but he eventually sticks one. I EE it before much harm can be done and an elspeth goes the distance with Ajani killing all his threats and doing the last 3 damage.

Game three took forever. He opened three survivals and I countered two, then on turn 4 he gets an iona naming white. I mised my one Jace to bounce it and stalled out with ajani and Jace M. stalling the board. I made the play error of tapping out to hard force (no other way to cast it) a force of will on my EE@2, when he had pridemage in play. I had been beating him with factories and soldiers the whole time, and he'd kept me off of ultimates. I end up doing the last 6 damage through an army of creatures with a mutavault given wings by elspeth and +1/+1 from a factory. Mutavault being a factory worker absolutely won me this game and thus this match.

Round 3: GBR slivers with another Kyle

Game one and two were similar, this was one of the weaker decks there and he had admittedly lucksacked into my bracket. 7 STP effects and planeswalkers go the distance both games, with Ajani and Els being MVP's.

Round 4 (Finals round 1) : Ben with 43land.dec

Ugh.

Game one he does his thing, keeping me tapped down with 3 ports.

Game two I build up a manabase despite 3 more ports (!) and get 2 loams with a macabre. I resolve a meddling mage on loam soon after and he goes to great lengths (intuition=>tolaria west=>barbarian ring) to kill it. I get an elspeth and a Jace. M on the board and start building jace counters and keeping him off business while countering his tutors and eventually hit another MM. I stupidly let him get academy ruins and he almost gets me in a slaverlock, but I beat him out with indestructable elspeth tokens and factories getting through his factories and 3 maze of iths.

Game 3 I counter some loams and drop an early mage on loam, all the while countering tutors. I hardcast DoJ for one, which he soon found a maze for, but it did some damage. I again manage to get a mutavault pumped by factories to go the distance against his factories.

Split (small) prizes with Eric who probably would have rolled me with MBaggro control.

-Meddling mage wins your tough matchups, save ichorid
-Faerie Macabre was lovely
-You don't really need sweepers main (I probably didn't need 5 in the board)
-Ajani IS that good
-Jace is totally relevant and very good.
-I never resolved a relevant humility

4 STP
3 EE
3 P2E
1 Ajani
2 Humility

4 Bstorm
2 SDT
4 Standstill
1 Jace M.

4 FOW
3 Sp. S
3 SC

2 Els
1 DoJ (<=good call)

4 Factory
1 Mutavault
4 Strand
1 Mesa
1 S. tarn
4 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Volc
3 Island
3 Plains

SB:
3 Firespout (<= meh)
2 WoG (<= great, oddly)
2 REB (<= mad good)
2 MM (<= MVP)
4 Macabre
2 Negate (<= mad good)

I wouldn't change the MB. The SB, if I could do it again now I'd go -1 firespout, +1 MM. I'd like to find room for one more even, but I'm not sure what to cut or if 4 is needed.

Cheers!