[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

I have to agree that maindeck Dread Return targets aren't necessary, since g1 we steamroll almost the entire field. Yesterday I went to a local shop to play some magic, and I had the chance to playtest against Survival with Iona/Retainers, NOBant, Excalibur, UWR Landstill and UW Merfolk. Most times I found myself with my entire graveyard deployed face up on the table, without the need to DR anything: Ichorids + Bridge from Below outrace nearly everything. The few times I had to DR something were g2 against Survival (DRing Angel of Despair to kill Windborn Muse, sacrificing it to Therapy to generate 3 tokens, and then reanimating it again to nuke Silent Arbiter) and against NOBant because I needed to race a Progenitus, but even then, if I DRed Iona I would have lost. Instead, that 13/13 GGT I reanimated seemed to be able to win in a blink. Enough talk, my latest list:


// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TSP] Dread Return

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

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I think the list looks pretty solid, but just posting it isn't enough. Now, I have to justify my choices. I decided to run both 4x Breakthrough and 4x Careful Study. I want to maximize the chance to draw both. They are both discard outlets and draw spells, which is vital to keep the engine going. If the engine starts, Iona, FKZ, Inkwell Leviathan, are all unneeded, hence my will to not play maindeck DR targets besides Golgari Grave-Troll. A few words about the sideboard:

1. I still like Nature's Claim over Chain of Vapor because Wheel of Sun and Moon is so annoying, and the 4 life gain is irrelevant when your deck is capable to deploy 2nd turn 9/9s or to attack with 13x 2/2 tokens.

2. Faerie Macabre is the new entry: I do have Leylines, but I dislike 'em because I don't want to mull into a card just to lose by myself because I have too few resources to play. Faeries have the advantage to be instant and free, they're black, they help you reach Threshold for the activation of Coliseum and don't clash with the DDD plan. GGT also likes Faerie Macabre.

3. 4x Ancient Grudge - because I want to see them as soon as possible. Multiple copies mean additional protection/chance to blow my opponent's Relic, which is better, don't you agree?

4. Ancestor's Chosen is there against ANT/Zoo/Burn or in case I need to race something huge (Dreadnought/Progenitus, the latter more often than the former - Phyrexian Lobster still falls under Grudge), while Angel of Despair is there for Reanimator/Stax/Survival/Enchantress. Max McCall plays FKZ in his sideboard, "Just in case I need to race combo, or to win the mirror", but I find Iona to be the best DR target ever released, and I can't conceive this deck without the legendary angel in its 75. Not only it completely crushes mono-colored strategies, it doesn't depend on Bridges, too (unlike Zealot). I don't feel like I need her in the maindeck anymore, but there are certain situations in which only Iona can save my day.

I played this today at monthly Iserlohn, posting a 3-3 finish. The deck felt not too bad, but I dredged more shit than in the last 3 tournaments together.

I lost a game to Faeries where I had to dredge a Troll 3 times before finding the first piece of action.
Against white Stax I lost because Angel decided that it would be a good idea to be the card second from bottom, I was short 1 round to kill him.


The last game I lost was against sime Slight build I'm not entirely sure but I might have given this one away with some mistakes.

So overall I felt a little unfortunate, but the deck was fun to play and it is nice to not always be the last one to finish the round =).

List was:
// Lands
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
3 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [TO] Ichorid
1 [GP] Angel of Despair

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TSP] Dread Return

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot


The changes I consider:
Angel -> Ichorid
Nature's Claim -> Wispmare

The Angel was against Reanimator, but it made only a few showings at the bottom tables, so the hype might be over. Second, I realized that a lot of the decks that board leyline also have Chalice, since 90% of the time Claim is used it takes out a Leyline, so Wispmare might be the better option.

After a little hiatus from actually playing this deck I decided to dust off my dredgers and travel to NY for the GPT. I went X-0-2 into the top 8 (IDing last two rounds) and lost in the top 4 after a close 3 game match to AnT. Here was my SB for the event:

4 Root Maze
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Eternal Witness

Generally I don't run CoV in the board, here it was a concession to the fact that I have essentially no other outs a Blazing Archon and I typically run into a bit of Reanimator from the New York crowd (though as far as I could see there was only one or two players in the room yesterday running it).

Root Maze is just amazing against combo. If you feel like combo is at all a presence in your meta but still want to run dredge the card deserves some consideration.

Just to throw my thoughts about the Faerie Macabre inside...

It may be good against reanimator, but it isn't any better then Leyline IMO ... you need Faerie in your starting hand as much as you need Leyline, because you wont draw that many cards >.>

what about Coffin Purge instead??? -> You can play it from your opening hand, and you can also Dredge into it, like Ancient Grudge =P


YawG

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sunshine

After a little hiatus from actually playing this deck I decided to dust off my dredgers and travel to NY for the GPT. I went X-0-2 into the top 8 (IDing last two rounds) and lost in the top 4 after a close 3 game match to AnT. Here was my SB for the event:

4 Root Maze
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Eternal Witness

Generally I don't run CoV in the board, here it was a concession to the fact that I have essentially no other outs a Blazing Archon and I typically run into a bit of Reanimator from the New York crowd (though as far as I could see there was only one or two players in the room yesterday running it).

Root Maze is just amazing against combo. If you feel like combo is at all a presence in your meta but still want to run dredge the card deserves some consideration.

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Root Maze seems weaker than CotV against ANT. It doesn't stop LED and there is a huge difference between costing 0 and 1 mana in that matchup. What other decks do you use it against?

There is only a marginal difference between zero and one mana for a card filling this role. Both can only be played on your first turn - and realistically hands without a land should probably be shipped back here.

Root Maze essentially says the AnT player cannot rely on initial mana sources drawn via Ad Nauseam - including lands. A first turn Maze will typically slow them down by three or more turns which should be enough time for your Therapies to make their life difficult. Under both Chalice and Maze all zero cc artifacts are effectively turned into +1 storm spells until the permanent is answered - except Maze also makes their lands enter the battlefield tapped and turns their fetches into glaciers. Maze doesn't stop LED but I feel that the fact that Maze makes generating mana post Ad Nauseam so much more difficult more than makes up for it. Remember that bouncing a Maze post Ad Nauseam requires a blue source to already be on the table and untapped.

As far as other MUs go it's worth pointing out Crypt's activation requires tapping, giving you a window to Grudge away the card before the nukes your yard. Also, dropping Maze on turn one means relic can't be activated until turn three at the earliest generally speaking. I haven't extensively tested it in MUs other than combo so I can't say it should definitely be sided in elsewhere. However, the tempo advantage it creates especially against decks packing a large number of fetches is backbreaking - the card is far from symmetrical when we only really need the land we played turn one in order to function.

So I finally have the deck together and I'm having troubles with which hands to keep. For example:

Bridge from Below
Putrid Imp
Golgari Thug
Stinkweed Imp
Tarnished Citadel
Gemstone Mine
Cephalid Coliseum

That's a definite keep.

But hands can get weird. For example:

2 Golgari Grave-Troll
Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
Breakthrough
Cephalid Coliseum

DDD-able? I tried to play it through and got the breakthrough to go off turn 3 (on the draw).

I understand the ideal hand is Discard, Dredger, Land. But what is considered unkeepable besides a hand with no Dredger?

THe last hand is awesome.
You obviously go the DDD route.
When you are playing against U you should go DDD anyways so that's no biggie.
When you are playing against anything non-U you can go Coliseum into Breakthrough and proceed to win.

@ Sunshine
Nice to meet you at the gpt I was the bearded fellow very interested in your board.

I just want to say against combo root maze was amazing drawing 10 cards and none of the cards helping do to the fact that it all comes into play tapped.

He happened to have CoV and echoing truth so CotV wouldn't of helped anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimirynk

@ Sunshine
Nice to meet you at the gpt I was the bearded fellow very interested in your board.

I just want to say against combo root maze was amazing drawing 10 cards and none of the cards helping do to the fact that it all comes into play tapped.

He happened to have CoV and echoing truth so CotV wouldn't of helped anymore.

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Nice, didn't know that was you. I've seen you around at tourneys before but never knew your source handle. Always cool to put a face to a familiar Sourcer.

Yeah, Maze single handedly stalled him for a good four or five turns. Unfortunately, Undiscovered Paradise was the only land I could find in my opener + 4 draws (I started on the draw + 2 from Careful Study). As you can imagine Paradise + Maze != synergy. He was finally able to bounce Maze and go off the turn before I would untap and play Breakthrough, sad times.

@ sunshine
What does your lands look like?

I personally run
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

But with root maze I could image -1 undiscovered paradise +x tarnish citadel

I was running:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel

Right now I'm testing swapping 1-2 of the Paradises for Citadels. Generally speaking I really dislike having to run Citadel in this deck. Especially in games two and three where your life total is the buffer you lean on while (re)filling your graveyard. Losing to a couple quick Goyfs + FoW because your own land bolted you is just horrible. I really love drawing Paradise in my opener - how many Paradises end up becoming Citadels is going to depend on whether or not boarding in Maze for other MUs turns out to be a solid plan and how much combo is expected in the field - NY typically has more combo show up than everywhere else I play (about 20% of the field last Saturday was storm combo).

Also, 60 foils in the main deck is a lot nicer than 58...

Good call on Root maze. This inclusion clearly demonstrate that ANT is our worst match up??

AnT/TES are pretty rough MUs but they're far from unwinnable. I've seen many Ichorid pilots lose to combo and chalk it up as a bad MU when really the problem was they didn't understand their role in the match. There are very few decks that force us to assume the control role but fast storm combo is certainly one of them.

The other thing that makes combo a tricky MU is it puts such a strong emphasis on use of Cabal Therapy which is far and away the most skill/knowledge intensive card in the deck. Knowing what to name when is largely what separates a good dredge pilot from someone who sits behind the deck well.

Mystical tutor is gone! Is root maze still justified here??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Mystical tutor is gone! Is root maze still justified here??

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Doubt it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Mystical tutor is gone! Is root maze still justified here??

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Most likely not. But then, who knows what any SBs should look like now? Many thanks to WotC for sending the Legacy community spinning right before what promises to be one of the largest tourneys of the year... again...

Given the recent developments, I'm definitely eyeing Realm Razer for one slot in my board at the GP, and Ancient Grudge isn't going anywhere - other than that though we'll have to see how things shake out between now and then. As sad as I am personally to see Mystical Tutor go it seems like Dredge can only profit from Combo and Reanimator taking such a hit. Good time to be a dredge player I guess - assuming the format doesn't get overrun by Enchantress...

I expect a huge showing of lands in Columbus.
It is one of our decks worst MU's..
I don't know if I have the ball's to sleeve up dredge for Ohio..
Lands 2 worst MU's just disappeared.

So, with Reanimator being nerfed by the recent B&R announcement, is it worth to still play Leyline of the Void in the sideboard? What could possibly take its place?

EDIT: What about Nature's Claim vs. Chain of Vapor, now? Do you still fear Blazing Archon?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimirynk

I expect a huge showing of lands in Columbus.
It is one of our decks worst MU's..
I don't know if I have the ball's to sleeve up dredge for Ohio..
Lands 2 worst MU's just disappeared.

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Is the MU that bad?
I can imagine Chasm being a beating against us, but doesn't Terastodon/Angel/Woodfall Primus solve that problem?
Also, this might be a good time to sleeve up Iona again, as the hate against her will significantly decrease and Iona on Green shuts down their recursion, allowing Terastodon to nuke the Mazes without a problem.