[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by PH-

Hi everybody, I am new on the forum, but I read the Dredge's Topic since sometimes. :tongue:
I play the deck in France and I have few questions for you about some specificities.

First of all, this is my deckbuild.



As you seen it, this is classical list of LED-Dredge, quite similar to Vandalize's one, but as he said really strong and stable.

The presence of 2 Darkblasts Maindeck is mainly for Merfolk, and I prefer it than Firestorm because it is recursive and really strong at the 1st game, and open to more Sideboard options at the 2nd &/or 3rd game. :cool:

But I have many questions to Dredge players (and you ReAnimator).

1- Inside my build I dithering to do 11 dredgers and 3 Deep Analysis to gain rapidity against some decks like HiveMind for example.

2- ReAnimator, I use Sun Titan like a new River Kelpie to be faster, but are you fizzling with more than 1 slot and with your Bloodghasts ? :eyebrow:

3- In a Combo metagame, I have 4 Winds of Change in my SB, I tried to use it unsuccessfully against HiveMind, what is your SB solution against this deck ?

To answer your question igri_is_a_bk, against Merfolk, I exit the DreadReturn plan and insert my 4th Ichorid, 3rd Darkblast and +2 Ancient Grudge, and for me it is always quite well.

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Sup pal. First of all, I'd like to say that LED lists are awsome, and you're in the right path.

And there are just a few comments I'd make to your list, because it's pretty solid, indeed:

Those 3 Darkblasts in the 75 seems wrong for me when playing LED lists. The whole point of LED is turning Dredge into a straight-foward combo and making the whole engine a turn faster. That said, I'd strongly recommend cutting them from the 75, as the only thing you should really care about is graveyard hate.

I'd also add a singleton Flame-kin Zealot in the main deck. That Woodfall Primus is really nice, but he belongs in sideboard. The explanation is already written above: with LED, you only care resolving your combo, and not disrupting anything on game 1.

Your sideboard is pretty nice, I liked it. Leyline of Sanctity is arguable the best card in your sideboard. It's a free way to deal with grave-hate/discard without drawbacks. BUT, you should never mulligan to it, unless your hand is really unkeepable.

Another thing I'd like to say is that 4 Wispmare is way too much, since you only have 8 white-mana Lands, which is a little low to devote 4 slots to a single hate.

And tell me more about your Merfolk matchup, please. I've been playing LED lists for a while, and it was pretty hard to lose to a Merfolk, since they can't really remove my Bridges aside from Cursecatcher, can't landwalk us, and play weak grave-hate (a.k.a Relic/Surgical Extraction). Of course, they can draw godlike into multiple Lords + some permission, but that's not really the case, since they don't have library manipulation.

This is my latest LED list:

Lands [12]

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Dredgers [12]

4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

Business [14]

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return

Draw [9]

4 Breakthrough
3 Street Wraith
2 Deep Analysis

Free Dudes [7]

4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid

Others [6]

4 Putrid Imp
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths

Sideboard [15]

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Ichorid
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge

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ReAnimator
I think i could definitely cut a titan or more likely the FKZ. I wouldn't cut the bloodghasts at all, they were amazing for me and way better than ichorids. However my list is significantly different from yours, i don't have as many black creatures that you do to fuel ichorids, and i have more lands and ways to get land back with the dredge land and undiscovereds, so ghasts are going to work a lot better for me.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Those 3 Darkblasts in the 75 seems wrong for me when playing LED lists. The whole point of LED is turning Dredge into a straight-foward combo and making the whole engine a turn faster. That said, I'd strongly recommend cutting them from the 75, as the only thing you should really care about is graveyard hate.

I'd also add a singleton Flame-kin Zealot in the main deck. That Woodfall Primus is really nice, but he belongs in sideboard. The explanation is already written above: with LED, you only care resolving your combo, and not disrupting anything on game 1.

Another thing I'd like to say is that 4 Wispmare is way too much, since you only have 8 white-mana Lands, which is a little low to devote 4 slots to a single hate.

And tell me more about your Merfolk matchup, please. I've been playing LED lists for a while, and it was pretty hard to lose to a Merfolk, since they can't really remove my Bridges aside from Cursecatcher, can't landwalk us, and play weak grave-hate (a.k.a Relic/Surgical Extraction). Of course, they can draw godlike into multiple Lords + some permission, but that's not really the case, since they don't have library manipulation.

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First of all ReAnimator thank you for your answer, I didn't thank about the number of black creatures in your building and you are perfectly right. In France, the bloodghast building is more like 2/3 Bloodghast/3 Ichorid but it was before Sun Titan. Did you tested Yosei, the Morning Star instead Flame-Kin-Zealot ? it is really strong and do Time Walk against aggro.decks.

Vandalize, thanks for your comments but I have few arguments for my defence :tongue:.
I think you are right about the number of Darkblast in the 75, but in France, Merfolk, Maverick and Zoo are really present in the metagame and DB is really strong against all of them. I Should do 1 Maindeck, 1 in Side.

About the Flame-Kin Zealot I always thank that "if you play it, you have already won the game". And Woodfall Primus is my back-up in emergency. But I'll test more FKZ.

In my sideboard, the 4 Wispmare are supplying your Chain of Vapor. Mental Misstep is really played in France, and I notice that Team America, Reanimator and some Hivemind decks (wich playing a playset of it) have Leyline of the Void in sideboard so I adapt the side as I can.:rolleyes:

My matchup against merfolk is really good since the beginning I rarely lose it, my Darkblasts are just one more thing to beat them but they are mainly against Zoo, Maverick, Bant for example.

If you have an advice to me (my building or my SB) I am totally open to it.

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Originally Posted by PH-

First of all ReAnimator thank you for your answer, I didn't thank about the number of black creatures in your building and you are perfectly right. In France, the bloodghast building is more like 2/3 Bloodghast/3 Ichorid but it was before Sun Titan. Did you tested Yosei, the Morning Star instead Flame-Kin-Zealot ? it is really strong and do Time Walk against aggro.decks.

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I've never heard or thought about Yosei being used but it is really interesting, i'll give it a try, my only worry is what if you have already used up all your sacrifice outlets, also is buying a turn any better than just playing FKZ and ending it right there? I'm not a huge fan of FKZ but against things like fast combo that can kill you in one turn, it can be pretty important. It's definitely a metagame thing.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

This is my latest LED list:

Lands [12]

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Dredgers [12]

4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

Business [14]

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return

Draw [9]

4 Breakthrough
3 Street Wraith
2 Deep Analysis

Free Dudes [7]

4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid

Others [6]

4 Putrid Imp
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths

Sideboard [15]

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Ichorid
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge

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After reading your comments and your decklist tears came to my eyes in happyness! XD
It was a long time ago that i heard such a good explantion on led list.
I haven't played dredge since my daughter was born (and far) and i found some key differences between your decklist and the mine.
First of all you run street wraith which is nice but i'm running 1 Tireless tribe, a DR target and 1 ichorid in that place. Could you tell what advantages did it give to you??
The more importante theme: The side.
How do you use both leyline + chain or leyline + grudge?? I always felt that leyline is a high (very high) risk / good reward card. Why not run chain + grudge if you expect artifact hate on the other side of the table. Againmst leyline of the void L of sancticity does nothing. Could you explain me?
And Elesh nor is indeed necesary??

Thx in advance.

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

After reading your comments and your decklist tears came to my eyes in happyness! XD
It was a long time ago that i heard such a good explantion on led list.
I haven't played dredge since my daughter was born (and far) and i found some key differences between your decklist and the mine.
First of all you run street wraith which is nice but i'm running 1 Tireless tribe, a DR target and 1 ichorid in that place. Could you tell what advantages did it give to you??
The more importante theme: The side.
How do you use both leyline + chain or leyline + grudge?? I always felt that leyline is a high (very high) risk / good reward card. Why not run chain + grudge if you expect artifact hate on the other side of the table. Againmst leyline of the void L of sancticity does nothing. Could you explain me?
And Elesh nor is indeed necesary??

Thx in advance.

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Hey there,

Well, I've been trying Leyline of Sanctity since it was printed, with positive results, so far. It's just a big way to deal with a lot of threats at once: Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog, Relic's tapping (when going for DDD), Nihil Spellbomb and Discard (which can really be scary when playing with LED). Moreover, it can delay Combo a little bit: by making they do some work to bounce it before going off.

About the Street Wraith, I simply love it, seriously. Lemme put it on short: a free, uncounterable draw effect, that is a black creature and can feed Ichorid. It helps fighting a turn 1 Relic of Progenitus when going for DDD plan, and helps fighting Surgical Extraction.

Lemme explain: Some dude tries to extract your GGT. You respond by cycling Street Wraith and dredging. You keep your GGT (usually), and his SE fizzles.

As for sideboarding, it really depends on the matchup... If I'm facing GWx Maverick, for example, I expect the following cards: Surgical Extraction, Tormod's Crypt, Wheel of Sun and Moon (with E.Tutor) and Bojuka Bog (knight fetch) and Scavenging Ooze. They usually go for Crypt and Bog, so it's a good option to try Leyline of Sanctity, because it allows you to deal with both hates, without losing any tempo.

If I'm expecting Merfolk, I usually board Ancient Grudge. It can take their Vials and Relics/Crypts. I remember a match where I cracked LED for Green, and flashbacked 2 dredged Grudges on both Vial and Relic (he was tapped out).

The whole point of sideboarding is personal and metagame dependant. Choose the anti-hate that suits you better.

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Originally Posted by ReAnimator

I've never heard or thought about Yosei being used but it is really interesting, i'll give it a try, my only worry is what if you have already used up all your sacrifice outlets, also is buying a turn any better than just playing FKZ and ending it right there? I'm not a huge fan of FKZ but against things like fast combo that can kill you in one turn, it can be pretty important. It's definitely a metagame thing.

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This is an example of build that could inspire you.
The Bloodghast version of Dredge in France looks like 4 Ichorid, 3 Bloodghast and a River Kelpie instead the Sun Titan, but with your list I worked to do this one.

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1 [FUT] Dakmor Salvage
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [TSP] Gemstone Mine
4 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise

2 [SHM] Sun Titan
1 [CHK] Yosei, the Morning Star

2 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp

4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
2 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba

4 [TO] Putrid Imp
3 [OD] Tireless Tribe

4 [FUT] Bridge from Below

3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study

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I'll test it next week in tournament and I'll do a report about the forces and weakness of the list. Tell me is you have any suggestion on it ;)

I think this list is less resistant against aggro than the others in the mid/late game.
The sideboard could look like

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1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Woodfall Primus
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Firestorm

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It's just an example for sure. :laugh:

@Vandalize: yeah SW is good but the example that you give is far ocational and specific. Im not sure on running it just because of that.
On leyline...ok i'll try and then i'll tell you. I dislike a lot must have it in the opening...

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Originally Posted by PH-

I'll test it next week in tournament and I'll do a report about the forces and weakness of the list. Tell me is you have any suggestion on it ;)

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The only suggestion i have is I'd play firestorms over tireless tribes. I really like firestorm vs any deck packing mental misstep, and tribe is sort of meh in my oppinion. But lots of people like him so i can't fault it.

I'll see, but personally I prefer Tireless Tribe in Aggro/Aggro-Control metagame cause it block Tarmo or Knight of Reliquary ^^
Maybe a mix 3 Tribe 1 Firestorm MD+ the 2 Firestorm in SB.

Tireless Tribe is indeed very nice in a meta full of aggro decks. I played a lot with Zoo and every game I played against a Tribe I lost without ever getting a chance. Tribes do combine badly with Ichorid though. If you expect many combo decks it might be better to just play a LED Dredge list because it's quicker.

My LED list right now looks like this:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
2 Sun Titan
1 Flamekin Zealot /26

4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy /21

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Colisseum /13

It's pretty nice. Sun Titan is a very decent way to get Colisseums back and from a LED you get UUU, so you spend UU on Deep Analysis and U on the new Colisseum. The flow is decent, but as every LED Dredge list it does very little if you cannot draw decent hands. In the LED version I prefer Ichorid as a recurring guy, because laqnddrops may be hard to repeatedly make during a game. I am testing a list with 3 Bloodghasts and LED but right now it doesn't work very well.

My LEDless list right now looks like this:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Bloodghast
2 Sun Titan
1 Flamekin Zealot /26

4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Firestorm
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy /19

4 Gemstone Mine
1 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Colisseum
2 Darkmor Salvage /15

This is much more consistent in making repeated landdrops, so Bloodghasts become much more interesting. Main deck Firestorms are good against aggro and Mental Misstep (because the discard is uncounterable). Tribes are no problem here because I play Bloodghasts instead of Inchorids, so I don't need black creatures.

My sideboard is still under construction. Right now I test 4 Thoughtseizes because they are more versatile than Leyline of Sanctity. Furthermore I try Nature's Claims, Chains of Vapor, Ancient Grudges and additional Dread Return Targets just like everybody else does. ;-)

So wierd, how can people bitch so much about other people running Nature's Claim and Ancient Grudge at their sideboards, as if it wasn't the standard board that was winning, few months ago...

...and noone find it wierd to run THREE maindeck DR targets.

Really, don't do that.

This deck needs 0 dr targets maindeck, but I could see running 1 if you want to make some specific meta call, but that's all. Three is way too much. Also, 2 DR is enough.

Running DR targets is a matter of strategy.
If I cast a Dread Return, I want to always win that same turn.
That's why I need something to Dread Return which allows me to immidiately win.
DR on Troll gives me some Zombies and a big dude with no evasion. That will probably be good the next turn, but what if my opponent then goes Hive Mind into whatever? I am used to playing a strategy in which I want to Dread Return and then Dread Return again into Zealot for the win, so my lists are built to accomplish that.

I have also seen Dredge lists with no LEDs and no DR targets. In that case one plays additional discard outlets and probably 2-3 Darkblasts, and get rid of the third DR because we don't have big targets anyway. It's all fine, as long as it suites your plan.

Nature's Claim is just a fine card that gets rid of nasty permanents like Prisons and can force your opponent to crack a Crypt or Relic at an irrelevant moment. It's a bit edgy, but at least it's an instant and it does the job we want it to. One doesn't have to like the card, but just try it and you will see it's a pretty nice card to have in your opening hand against a lot of possible hate pieces.

[@Asthereal] Play Putrid Imp. Seriously. The benefit of LED-less is the 8 permanent discard outlets. And you cut the one that fuels Ichorid. That is unquestionably the wrong decision. [/@Asthereal]

I don't think anybody argued against running Nature's Claim in the sideboard, only Ancient Grudge. NC still fights Leyline (and Wheel if you see it - I never do), which is public enemy number one. While AG fights several pieces of hate, the argument is that an active Tribe or PImp will allow you to slow down your dredging and force the opponent to use the Relic/Crypt/etc. before it is devastating to you. What I don't understand is how adding Grudge is incorrect if you are not removing any Tribes or PImps to begin with.

In case you haven't read the article by Feldman, he concluded that neither he nor Max McCall had ever used Grudge to any decisive measure. Okay. In my very first match piloting Dredge, I did. I used Grudge to nuke a Relic and it saved at least 10 cards from being exiled as I wasn't forced to bait my graveyard until it looked too threatening for my opponent. So the question is whether or not it's worthwhile to side in Grudge to save those cards or to slow dredge and force our opponent to realize when he should activate his artifact hate.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Running DR targets is a matter of strategy.
If I cast a Dread Return, I want to always win that same turn.
That's why I need something to Dread Return which allows me to immidiately win.
DR on Troll gives me some Zombies and a big dude with no evasion. That will probably be good the next turn, but what if my opponent then goes Hive Mind into whatever? I am used to playing a strategy in which I want to Dread Return and then Dread Return again into Zealot for the win, so my lists are built to accomplish that.

I have also seen Dredge lists with no LEDs and no DR targets. In that case one plays additional discard outlets and probably 2-3 Darkblasts, and get rid of the third DR because we don't have big targets anyway. It's all fine, as long as it suites your plan.

Nature's Claim is just a fine card that gets rid of nasty permanents like Prisons and can force your opponent to crack a Crypt or Relic at an irrelevant moment. It's a bit edgy, but at least it's an instant and it does the job we want it to. One doesn't have to like the card, but just try it and you will see it's a pretty nice card to have in your opening hand against a lot of possible hate pieces.

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This is innacurate. Nature's Claim should be kept in side Primarily to fight Leyline of the Void. Against other kinds of hate, all it does is clog your hand with cards that makes the deck malfunction.

DR targets that win game whenever DR resolves in maindeck is a winmore. You can win without them by playing tigther, and too many pieces that are not one of these:
- land
- discard spell
- dredger
- draw spell
will make your deck worse. Sure, it wins the game right after DR resolves (detail: It has to resolve through counters), but it has a harder time REACHing this point.

Besides, DRing a Golgari Grave Troll will win the game right away in most situations, granted we should always be playing 4 Cabal Therapy and name the pieces that could win the game for them.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

[@Asthereal] Play Putrid Imp. Seriously. The benefit of LED-less is the 8 permanent discard outlets. And you cut the one that fuels Ichorid. That is unquestionably the wrong decision. [/@Asthereal]

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In the LEDless right now I play Firestorm over Putrid Imp. I play Bloodghasts in that list and no Ichorids, so the black creature count is irrelevant.
It's true that eight permanent discard outlets is nice, but if they get Misstepped I still need a way to discard, where Firestorm doesn't care about being Misstepped because I have discarded my stuff anyway.

I personally don't like Grudges much as a way to force my opponents to blow up Relics or Crypts. I need to have already Dredged it away then, because I cannot count on having two lands into play when I play only 13 and have no cantrips to dig for them. Claims on the other hand need to be drawn before they do stuff, but then again you won't be Dredging much anyway if your opponent has stuff around that you would like to blow up with Grudge or Claim.

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I don't think anybody argued against running Nature's Claim in the sideboard, only Ancient Grudge. NC still fights Leyline (and Wheel if you see it - I never do), which is public enemy number one. While AG fights several pieces of hate, the argument is that an active Tribe or PImp will allow you to slow down your dredging and force the opponent to use the Relic/Crypt/etc. before it is devastating to you. What I don't understand is how adding Grudge is incorrect if you are not removing any Tribes or PImps to begin with.

In case you haven't read the article by Feldman, he concluded that neither he nor Max McCall had ever used Grudge to any decisive measure. Okay. In my very first match piloting Dredge, I did. I used Grudge to nuke a Relic and it saved at least 10 cards from being exiled as I wasn't forced to bait my graveyard until it looked too threatening for my opponent. So the question is whether or not it's worthwhile to side in Grudge to save those cards or to slow dredge and force our opponent to realize when he should activate his artifact hate.

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People complain about Nature's Claim as well, because the same Feldman's article says you shouldn't be running reactive defenses.

The usage of Ancient Grudge is debatable, and this is a fair point I give it to the ideas of the article. Sometimes it's simpler not to side and try to force them to break your graveyard before. I've been going unsided @ G2 for a while, just to figure what my opponent is up to with his hate, and the deck still works.

What I give Grudge credit for is: when we keep grudge, ichorid and moeba in deck, we have more baits for their hate. So I still think it's worth keeping at least 2 or 3 grudges in side.

My sideboard is basically designed to:
a) Fight Leyline of the Void, so that it is not auto-loss;
b) Fight opposing hate that can slow me down too much;
c) Win races.

(a) is important because I really think a good deck should have game against ANY deck, and we shouldn't EVER rely on opponents making a wrong sideboard call. (b) comes at hand in the same way as (c), but in different games. (c) is usually DR targets that wins against combo, while (b) helps fighting aggresive decks with hate.

So I've been running my side like this:
// (a), sometimes (b)
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ray of Revelation
// (b)
3 Ancient Grudge
// (c)
3 Brainstorm - I know people like Winds of Change more, but I like being able to cast BS with any land
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
2 -free for DR targets-

Your sideboard looks fine to me.
Very versatile answers, so you always have stuff that matters.
Against which decks do you really like your Brainstorms?

About the DR targets:
I have played with none, one, two and three DR targets and I noticed that playing none doesn't significantly change my results from when I played two or three. PLaying one was rubbish though, since I never really got it when I needed it, and when it didn't matter, it didn't matter, really. :-P
That's why I argued that either playing targets or not is a matter of strategy, or taste, if you prefer.

It is true that the three I play make my opening hand worse if they are there, but effectively mulliganing is one of the most important things for Dredge players in the first place. And shuffling skills too, by the way, since this deck is very good at piling up the playsets during games. If I shuffle well and mulligan well, the targets don't really bother me, while I do like their potential in play a lot.

What I hate the most in Legacy is that every single noob is a copycat piece of s**t.

People don't try to suit their lists to their metagame or style, they just read all the crap Feldman writes and takes it as unchangable facts. They just play his list, and sometimes win, sometimes lose.

He harassed Ancient Grudge. Sure, it didn't work for him. But I play with Ancient Grudges in my sideboard since forever, and it has shined bright for me, not only killing hate, but Batterskulls, AEther Vials and other goodies.

Don't be a sheep guys, just give the cards a try before saying something. I couldn't care less for what some "successful" player says, and you shouldn't, as well.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Against which decks do you really like your Brainstorms?

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I use them against combo. It's really gamebreaker to hit a draw spell against combo and fill your graveyard ASAP. This is why Winds of Change is used, but Brainstorm draws a similar amount of cards most of the time, but it can be cast with Cephalid, which is more important in my view.

Changing the opponent hand may be worth in WoC, so I don't blame anyone for playing it over Brainstorm, but I also like keeping my hand, to play spells/lands, or to put things like moeba in top of library to be dredged, so this is a plus.

The final usage is the same, tho, and works very well.

I dont like grudge niether. Im playing pithing needle and it seems to be better for me. It stops the artifact hat batterskull from getting rid of brides and more.