[OLD] UGw Threshold

Sunday, there was a tournament, 5 rounds + top 8

I managed to win against Affinity, Dragon Stompy and Landstill and get a 3-1-1 score. I lost against merfolk in the top8.

Some problems :
How to beat relic of progenitus, I faced relic MD in 2 games? To counter or not counter? I usually just let it through and try to play around it or just draw my krosan grip and blow them.

The eternal question : How to beat Landstill? Yea, everyone say it is a bad MU. But that doesn't solve the problem. I know one of the way is with card advantage (Either by gaining CA or by nullifying their CA). I managed to win my two games against landstill because my counterbalance blindly countered all his 1/2/3 cc. I would have lost otherwise. In both game, he managed to draw cards off 2-3 standstill. But my CB generated a sort of huge card advantage.

4th Sensei's divining top or not? As funny as it may sound, i drew like 0 Sensei in all my tournament (when it mattered). When i did draw into them, the game was over for me or for them.

I tried Ancestral vision : Cheap and can generate card advantage. But is terribly slow. When it resolved, the game was mine. But it rarely resolves, either to countermagic, or just because it was too slow. So AV is not a good choice.
There will be a Timewalk beta tournament this saturday 21st. I am sure the place will be crowded with landstill deck.
Is gaddock teeg enough? Especially against the variant the UWB version (playing 4 stp, 3 smother 3 edict, 4 vindicate, 0 humility, 0 wrath of god). All list in Montreal are running the DOJ and Elspeth as kill conditions (some list dont run DOJ, which is a big mistake). I was thinking about pithing needle. But i am not convinced.
Is UGW the best idea? Black can give card advantage with Dark confidant. This deck really need CA to keep up against most deck in my meta :O

How about armageddon? Alot of people seems to think it is a bad idea. But assuming a list with Werebear, geddon looks decent. In a meta that will be mainly aggro-control and control, i think it can be a decent idea. Some people are talking about Back to Basic, but i feel it is not enough. Someone played it against me when i had 1 basic island. I still won the game because i could cantrip answers and lands. Blood moon kills because it shuts down instantly the mana base. Even with 5 basic lands, a turn one Blood moon is a must counter, unless you already have the basic in hand

Oh right, MD Krosan grip was MVP all day. Its just amazing. Trygon was great too.

Would you expect Merfolk at a 25$ entry tournament with a timewalk as first prize? Im asking this because i hate losing to Merfolk and elves...

Congratz to the imaginary friend for his finish. The mongoose were useless in all games except against Landstill where they shone because of their shroud. Goyf basically do the job in every game.

Robert

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omega

How about armageddon? Alot of people seems to think it is a bad idea. But assuming a list with Werebear, geddon looks decent. In a meta that will be mainly aggro-control and control, i think it can be a decent idea. Some people are talking about Back to Basic, but i feel it is not enough. Someone played it against me when i had 1 basic island. I still won the game because i could cantrip answers and lands. Blood moon kills because it shuts down instantly the mana base. Even with 5 basic lands, a turn one Blood moon is a must counter, unless you already have the basic in hand

---

Whether Geddon, BtB or even Blood Moon (in a red build) is better depends an the boardstate. With Geddon you better have 2 creatures or Mongoose out. When I boarded Geddon I always boarded 3 Grunts in, too. With a resolved Geddon your Top/Balance and Daze are sadly pretty much dead unless you find another land or you have a spare one when casting Geddon which adds to the prerequisites to casting it.
Back to Basics is hard to set up because if you screw yourself with it too you will probably loose and you can't always afford to fetch basics in the earlygame. If you have Basics in play and it hits the table though, it has a huge impact and makes all your free counters much stronger (instead of weaker).
Some time ago Stifle worked for me, too. They hit some stuff you don't like: Wasteland/Factory activation and most important EE. So they are making your Mongoose much stronger. Stifled fetchlands also slow them down. Although they might be not the best SB cards against LS they are very flexible and good against nearly any control deck, Goblins and some other decks. There are even UGW lists that play 3 main without Wastelands. I found them rather bad main though.

What do you thing guys is the right number of beaters for the deck ? i've been seeing several numbers for 9-10, 12, 14 & 16

On the topic of Mongoose vs Werebear
Yes werebear has more utility and a bigger beater later on, while the mongoose gives shroud which is a very bigger factor if your running a low number of beaters in your deck so you'll have finisher later on.

On the topic of Blood Moon, Geddon & B2B
Im just guessing its almost same as playing 3 wasteland with 3-4 stifles which has a bigger impact early games due to its low casting cost and quantity 6-7 cards compared to 2-3 if you use B2B, etc., im sure nobody would run 4 geddon or 4 B2B in there decks cause most of the time its a dead card unless you have established a good board position, its like a win more card for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omega

Would you expect Merfolk at a 25$ entry tournament with a timewalk as first prize? Im asking this because i hate losing to Merfolk and elves...

---

Yes. They're a deck to beat now and very competitive.

edit: as a side note, at the grand prix trial yesterday, aggro had 0 presence. No goblins, no merfolk, no aggroloam, nothing. Our team was baffled but then again, none of us were playing aggro either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by _erbs_

What do you thing guys is the right number of beaters for the deck ? i've been seeing several numbers for 9-10, 12, 14 & 16

---

10 to 11

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by godryk

Congrats on the finish!

Just a quick question on your newest list: if you had faced Merfolk in any round, what would you have sided?

---

I would have sided out the B2B if anything (That's assuming they aren't splashing) Maybe something like 2 Grips to keep the casting cost curve the same for CB. Those would target things like Jitte or Nought if they're running it. Maybe Mages naming some of the more problematic cards since they usually don't have removal or bounce, or to target their side board cards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by _erbs_

On the topic of Blood Moon, Geddon & B2B
Im just guessing its almost same as playing 3 wasteland with 3-4 stifles

---

It is not the same. Blood Moon, Geddon and B2B have the potential to shut down in one turn your opponents board. I periodically insert 2 Geddons in my board since 2004 (Bardo - I think - came up with the plan) when my meta becomes too controlish... and it works (I even side it in for the mirror sometimes).

Running Wastelands in UGW-Threshold doesn't make sense (to me). Why ? You can't play tempo (StoP and no-burn make Johnny a slow boy). Since you have to play a more controlish build, CB-Top is almost an auto-include. Wanting to resolve CB early game, Wasteland is a potential screw-factor for your manabase (4/17 = 23.5% of your lands).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aTn

Running Wastelands in UGW-Threshold doesn't make sense (to me). Why ? You can't play tempo (StoP and no-burn make Johnny a slow boy). Since you have to play a more controlish build, CB-Top is almost an auto-include. Wanting to resolve CB early game, Wasteland is a potential screw-factor for your manabase (4/17 = 23.5% of your lands).

---

If you run wasteland, you typically should only run 3, and then up the land count to 19ish. But I still agree with you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smog

If you run wasteland, you typically should only run 3, and then up the land count to 19ish. But I still agree with you.

---

Yeah, you're right... brain fart on my part I guess...

That being said, what are your SB plans vs. Merfolk ?

That Progenitus Threshold by Hatfield looks really good. With people maindecking Relic now, turning that 0/1 Goyf to a 10/10 god is so cool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kicks_422

That Progenitus Threshold by Hatfield looks really good. With people maindecking Relic now, turning that 0/1 Goyf to a 10/10 god is so cool.

---

Wait, where's the list? I have been waiting to see it.

In the Top 8 decklists thread.

Alex Hatfield - Progenitus Threshold

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wearbear
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Krosan Grip
3 Submerge
3 Back to Basics
1 Empyrial Archangel

Further testing proved that playing 3 wasteland in a 19 land count mana base and 4 stifles has less benefit than playing colored mana for faster mana stability and having access to spells plus 4 additional cantrips/creature control/counter magic in the stifle slot will give you more answers than getting abit of tempo boost.

The idea of playing more like canadian thresh with access swords to plowshares was nice but it lack another tempo card which has a low casting cost to work nicely.

I see a couple of uses for the Dryad Arbor...mainly sac-ing to the Primal Order, but does it serve any other relevant purpose tha tI'm just missing?

fetch it with fetch lands. then sac it to NatOrder

With the Natural Order combo, is it an instance of winning more or is there a justification for running it? It would seem that UGw is doing alright as it is and doesn't need to be running combo tricks like that in order to win. I mean its a great "wow" factor and defiantly has a "win now" feel to it which can be positive, however I wonder if its necessary; if those four slots could be allocated elsewhere.

It's 4 slots well devoted in my opinion. When your entire gy is game one relic'd / jotun'd away, and progen pops out of your 0/1 goyf.... yeah...

Just a small question before deciding my view on this tech: if they fow your order, do you sac as a cost in addition aka no matter what or do you sac when you play the spell? Because it looks pretty juicy in terms of being a must-counter. Also being a sorcery makes it harder to like as you wanna be able to play it with good timing. Hard to decide tho'.

Yes, saccing the creature is part of the cost, not of the effect. See the Oracle text of the card:
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/Card...s.aspx?id=4307
I like the combo finish, it reminds me of Swans Thresh. Only there, it takes 7 cards of maindeck space (of which 6 cards are marginally useful on their own), here it takes only 4 cards. And it is a one-card combo.

The combo looks quite interesting although i am not sure if natural order can be easily acquired -.-

Robert

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Glorfindel

I like the combo finish, it reminds me of Swans Thresh. Only there, it takes 7 cards of maindeck space (of which 6 cards are marginally useful on their own), here it takes only 4 cards. And it is a one-card combo.

---

First of all Swans and Chain of Plasma are useful on its own. Swan is still a 4 power evasion beater pitchable to FOW and all the times I played the deck Chain was thrown back at me only once. Its practically an Incinerate in all situations but the Goyfstall.

Natural Order needs a green creature. Although thats not too hard to achieve it is still a 2 card combo and Progenitus is better not on your hand (or you need a Brainstorm). With a stalled board do you sac your creature for Natural Order risking a 2:1 if your opponent has a counter?

After that your fatty can still be Wrathed, Edicted, become a 1/1 with a pretty picture under Humility etc. or you can still be raced in three turns.

Swanthresh was nice but it happens to be that a straight list is better. I don't see why Natural Order should be better. I would rather play castable creatures in these slots.