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I like it. Opt was never really good enough anyway. This card, although really mediocre pre-combo, gives us another option.
I'm not sure how the deck has to be changed structurally for this card to be worth it. I guess having a Brain Freeze in hand becomes much better now.
He's sort of an old school player and probably just didn't own them. And what's the problem? He won the thing even when the field wasn't so friendly for solidarity. I don't see what Misstep adds to this deck. Unlike Time Spiral, Solidarity can combo without a High Tide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphus
The thing is that people just don't know how to play against this deck. They really don't. They counter the wrong spells and when they accidentally hit the right ones, they are hit with a Remand or something else and get blown out anyway. If you are a good pilot, you will win tournaments. It's not about some optimal list, it's about playing the game really good. The above guy is just really good with the deck, Missteps or not.
I don't now if it's not a bad thing to keep the opts having a 3 x opt and 3 of this visions of beyond, meaning that we'll play with more 1 cmc cantrips: more chances to find land more chances to combo on the third turn (not that this meaning something good, but sometimes combo on turn 3 is necessary for example look at the zoo deck with goblin guide...) the good thing is later combo or on late game we don't lost nothing with Visions of beyond...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
I don't know it's just an idea...
@Hopo: I don't assume all the time that my opponents are worst than me, this kind of hubris is very bad for me (i already learn that lesson) - note that i m not criticizing you it's just my point of view nor i wanted to say that you mean you think that... Although you are slightly right, but i know alot of players that know how to play vs a deck but that should be excuse to any deck, every average player know how to play vs goblins since goblins start to play back in the days, everyone knew how to play vs merfolks, dredge, ANT and etc...
So i would like to if possible know the why your friend's list don't use MM and other things...
To me the question is: why should you play Mental Misstep in this deck? What is the 1cc spell you want to counter that the deck can't handle as it is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphus
At some point I remember him siding out High Tides to make opponents Missteps dead. It's a valid strategy if you know what you are doing.
A better question might be "What cards do you care about that doesn't MM deal with?"
Solidarity is a slow deck by combo standards. Turn 4 is the first reliable combo turn, but for every addtional turn it gets, the more difficult it is to disrupt.
Our most precious resource, therefore, is time. Mental Misstep buys time far more cheaply than Force of Will, which costs us a card (and therefore a draw phase, or one turn).
By countering:
Aether Vial
Goblin Lackey
Cursecatcher
Wild Nactl
Dark Ritual
Entomb
Putrid Imp
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Glimpse of Nature
etc
Mental Misstep buys us a turn or more. The fact that it also counters MM, Spell Snare, Pyroblast and Spell Pierce is almost just a bonus - I usually spend my MM long before I start comboing off.
Force of Will is too expensive to be used against many of those spells; it's a dead card in far too many matchups. The only cards that require FoW are 2+ mana permanents that shut down our combo (Trinisphere, Aethersworn Cannonist) or other FoW when comboing. The first set of cards are fairly niche, and can be bounced, and the second can be played around.
MM v FoW is a meta choice. It strengthens some matchup and weakens others. At the moment, with Countertop MIA, MM is generally the better choice for the maindeck, with FoW and Flusterstorm competing for the sideboard.
-Silent Requiem
Would you side-out high tide vs merfolks or vs bant decks? Decks that give solidarity a 4-5 turns with heavy counter arsenal?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
Spell pierce, Red elemental blast, Pyroblast, Dispel, Spell snare, aether vial, duress, thoughtseize, Nacatl and zoo creatures (they give us a 3 turn clock) etc... oh yes and Mental Misstep.
This small list is the reason why MM need to be on solidarity...
No point in listing all 1cc legacy staples. You don't want to counter all of those. Goblin Lackey and maybe Entomb (or more like Reanimate) are the ones that require immediate answers or you will lose.
You most likely don't have room for 8 counters, so you probably need to decide between Fow and Misstep - or a mixture - and while Fow costs a card, it also deals with zounds of problem cards Misstep doesn't. Which one's better? Hard to say.
Believe me when i say this: You do want to counter all of those spells i mentioned...
And yes the equilibrium between combo pieces and counters is very delicate, but misstep is very good card in my opinion, but, as i said, this is why i would like to know your friend opinion.
This new source of cardadvantage could be seen as an argument for FoW. It may be possible to run some kind of mixture between the two. If Visions in fact makes our combo more reliable, we can get away with running more counters.
Beautifully put.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphus
This. A thousand times this.Quote:
This new source of cardadvantage could be seen as an argument for FoW. It may be possible to run some kind of mixture between the two. If Visions in fact makes our combo more reliable, we can get away with running more counters.
I have struggled to fit more than 8-9 counters into Solidarity, and half of those are counters that cantrip, like Remand or Cryptic. Being able to play another four cheap card advantage spells would (potentially) allow us to push the boundaries even further, especially every time we use a counter we push both graveyards towards the critical 20 cards.
However, I struggle to think what it is that I would take out to make room for the additional counters.
Impulse? That would make putting the combo together much more difficult, although having a wishboard alleviates that somewhat.
Turnabout? That means leaning awfully hard on our Resets, but it might work if those extra counters buy is more time to play lands.
-Silent Requiem
VoB looks sick in this deck!
Bad Opt early game i.e. don't play it at all unless youre desperate to sculpt and win on your opponent's next turn.
VoB will greatly reduce combo fizzles when you are actually comboing off. A build with fetches/Brainstorms/Impulses and slightly higher land count would make the initial land drops stable without wasting Opts to secure land drops (fetches now get an even additional bonus on having good synergy with VoB).
I'm very looking forward to play this deck when Flutterstorms are no longer $20 (Only picking them up at $5 or less). I intend to play a FoWless build with 4 Flutterstorms and 4 MM. I feel that the true enemies for Solidarity are discard and decks that win faster than our fundamental turn. I can see VoB being critical in the deck. Solidarity sometimes still fizzles during the combo phase, if you don't draw enough Meditates/Impulses etc. VoB is a recall when you hit 20 cards (not too difficult considering the only things that cannot be put into the GY in this deck is basic lands).
3 Delta
2 Strand
14 Island
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Impulse
3 Remand
4 MM
3 FoW
Leaving one slot. I guess a third Brain Freeze may actually be good enough here because of Visions. It could sort of allow us to do a mini combo with a Freeze for 5-ish, and refill up with Visions. Of course, Meditate really isn’t the card you want with this plan.
I’m quite sure Flusterstorm should at least be a Wishable one-off. I can’t think of a card I’d want over it in control matchups.
I really like the list, although I tend to prefer a full 20 lands - the best use of any time our counters buy us is making land drops, so I don't want to miss any for the first 6 turns or so if I can help it. Call it personal preference.
You might also consider a 4th Remand in that empty slot, though, or a Cryptic for maindeck bounce that doubles as a counter in the late game/mid combo.
I would definitely play Flusterstorm in the sideboard; it's better than Remand against discard, true control, and storm. I also like a one-of Pact of Negation to Wish for against decks like Merfolk, where they have loads of soft counters and you only have one chance to go off.
All together, it works out to a pretty sick counter package, assuming the deck can handle it.
-Silent Requiem
Edit: Of course, FoI is a brokenly powerful card to give up. I agree that it does very little pre combo, and that Brainfreezing ourself/our opponent to trigger upgraded VoB is a similar trick (generating card advantage) to Freezing for FoI, all while costing less mana.
But, oh, how I will miss that card.
I have never ran 20 land before. The old lists always had 18. I moved that to 19 at a certain point and liked it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
I think Remand is better as a 3-off. You generally only want to counter once with it, and draw one of them while comboing. That seems just right as a 3-off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
I really hate Cryptic Command. I don't like plaing 4 mana spells that don't instantly win me the game pre combo.
Yes, I used to love FoI so much as well. I've had so many epic wins as a result of the card. The reasoning behind it, is that I now want to Brain Freeze my opponent for smaller amouts, because it allows me to mini combo twice, or to fire a Brain Freeze and VoB searching for a Remand to win the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
I was thinking about tolarian winds, since it help us achieve the 20 cards threshold for Vob maybe it could hit our sideboards again.
I'll be playing Solidarity at my local tournament next Saturday. Will report after.
Flusterstorm is in my list a wishboard slot, nothing more.
Though I'm not sure yet, I'm reducing Cryptic Command to a singleton mainboard alongside good old Twincast.
@Cutting FoI
I can't imagine cutting the card that digs deepest into your library over Visions of Beyond. Just a minor comparison in the comboturn; Brainstorm nets you the same top three cards as VoB could, thus keeping your combo from going. Though VoB COULD draw you the extra counter to back up your combo.
Whereas FoI digs through your (i.e. top 15) library for the cost of 2 mana to find that card you're after (by the time VoB turns into a A.Recall).
@Tolarian Winds
Yes it does help you get though 20 cards, however Tolarian Winds causes you;
- Card disadvantage.
- to ditch a (semi-)sculpted hand (only to turn your VoB into a A.Recall to see it MM-ed).
To make VoB active, obvious choice would be early game BF.
I prefer to cut my hand off first than cut FOI from the deck... Visions of beyond works with any grave so why should i not have it? turning BF into a cantrip! Damn never taking it out!
Don't let yourself be influenced by VoB it's a good card but test with it first...
VoB into Recall is a little hard to pull off. However if you get to Brainfreeze yourself just once, it's easy to setup. The only drawback I see is whether its worth the maindeck slots to up brainfreeze counts to support VoB. Note that with just 3 spells on the stack and Brainfreeze with VoB, you can easily turn it on:
2 Spells, play VoB (on the stack) play Brainfreeze on yourself.
This dumps 3x4+3=15 cards in the yard 3x(2 spells + VoB + Brainfreeze) + 3 (cards spells resolving and going to yard).
If you played 3 spells then VoB, you can hit 19 cards, and if you used fetches/cantrips earlier it's easy to turn it on. Without Brainfreeze, VoB is probably not spectacular at all if you are trying to hit 20-Threshold naturally.
@ Metalwalker: I'm confused - why would you target yourself w/ Brainfreeze when the Solidarity goal is to deck the opponent? Just target the opp w/ the Brainfreeze copies and use his/her graveyard count for the VoB.
DERP, yes VoB checks any GY so yupp you should be targeting their GY. And yes, Seraphus is right, card needs to be tested. Also since Solidarity is basically playing anything on the stack, you can still keep the real BF on the stack, resolve the copies, Remand the Brainfreeze after drawing with VoB etc etc, then Brainfreeze for lethal later.