[Deck] Dredge

Artifact hate,batterskull from getting rid of bridges and more

@Gui: Brainstorm sure sounds like a decent plan. They don't counter your discard outlets, so playing millions of those is unnecessary, and when needed you can even use the Brainstorm to protect your hand from opposing Duresses/Thoughtseizes.
What type of LED list would you suggest by the way?

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

What type of LED list would you suggest by the way?

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Hmmm... I don't have a LED list, my current list is LEDless with maindeck Firestorm... can be found some pages back

I usually board Nature's Claim against Enchantress or decks playing Leyline of the Void. There was a moment in my life in which I thought I needed a 23-cards sideboard. Now I can think about a 9-cards sideboard - I keep in enchantment hate only to avoid scooping to random Leyline/Moat. And seriously, I'd play 6 Ancient Grudge if I could.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

@Gui: Brainstorm sure sounds like a decent plan. They don't counter your discard outlets, so playing millions of those is unnecessary, and when needed you can even use the Brainstorm to protect your hand from opposing Duresses/Thoughtseizes.
What type of LED list would you suggest by the way?

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Lol, I would love to share your optimism. Every legacy player who isn't a complete douchebag WILL counter your dicsard outlets, knowing that at that point, your draw spells will be pretty useless.

Also, protecting your cards with BS doesn't get you anywhere. Just think about it. What do they want to Duress away? Your draw spells. So getting rid of a draw spell in order to protect a draw spell doesn't seem too smart.

So TES and ANT run a countersuit now? Seriously, Gui was talking about siding in BS as Breakthrough 5-8 against Combo, nothing more and nothing less.

Yet your 2nd point is true, however I would bring in another point: I can't really think of any situations where you want to use BS as a protection spell and not as a draw engine. Come to think, if you have 1 mana up to play BS you should usually have something in your graveyard allready (otherwise you would have used the mana for a discard outlet or simply go for DDD).

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Originally Posted by Izor

Lol, I would love to share your optimism. Every legacy player who isn't a complete douchebag WILL counter your dicsard outlets, knowing that at that point, your draw spells will be pretty useless.

Also, protecting your cards with BS doesn't get you anywhere. Just think about it. What do they want to Duress away? Your draw spells. So getting rid of a draw spell in order to protect a draw spell doesn't seem too smart.

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We are talking about a combo matchup playing discard, like TES or ANT.
And the protecting your cards part is an extra, not a basic plan. But I figured that needed no explanation.

And how on earth are you going to counter the discard from Firestorm? :-P
So also against Hive Mind combo the Brainstorms could help.

Ok, I am with Vandalize here. Feldman is an idiot and you people that have stumbled across dredge like it is the Muslim religion and Feldman's article is the Koran are just as stupid as him.

Firstly if you want to play fearless dredge then the all in strategy of LED dredge is better than LEDless.

Secondly Leyline of the Void is awful in the SB unless your metagame is filled with Dredge/reanimator decks. Metagame call slot, it shouldn't be in there for a generic dredge list.

Thirdly, ancient grudge is a great SB card, for all the reasons people have mentioned and more. Against merfolk it shines. Kills aether vial and relic of prog messing up their clock. Tough to counterspell. Doesn't have to be in your opening hand to f stuff up.

Reading the posts on these forums for last thirty or so pages will help you out more than any "pro" ever could. Look up the guy who top 4'd the bazaar of moxen, some insightful posts there alone.

Urg

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Originally Posted by joemauer

Ok, I am with Vandalize here. Feldman is an idiot and you people that have stumbled across dredge like it is the Muslim religion and Feldman's article is the Koran are just as stupid as him.

Firstly if you want to play fearless dredge then the all in strategy of LED dredge is better than LEDless.

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Lol'd hard, haha.

And agreed. If you guys want to play fearless, just play LED.

This "no anti-hate" crap Feldman says isn't as simple as it looks. If you have no bomb (aka Breakthrough and Coliseum), even if you have a PImp/Tribe out, they can simply roll you. They won't blow the Crypt on the first GGT you drop on graveyard. They'll wait for a good moment to blow it WHILE making their tempo. They won't just stop playing and wait for your graveyard to get big. They'll still cast their Natural Orders, Knights of the Reliquarys, Goblins, Merfolks and Show and Tells.

I lol'd that you don't know the difference between Islam and a Muslim, contributing to American ignorance. You don't follow the Muslim religion because it isn't one. A Muslim follows Islam.

And what good does destroying a Vial do for our deck? It doesn't get us any closer to winning the game. In fact, using a Grudge on a Vial is a waste of resources.

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

I lol'd that you don't know the difference between Islam and a Muslim, contributing to American ignorance. You don't follow the Muslim religion because it isn't one. A Muslim follows Islam.

And what good does destroying a Vial do for our deck? It doesn't get us any closer to winning the game. In fact, using a Grudge on a Vial is a waste of resources.

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Dredge versus merfolk is a race. Anything you do to slow them down, the better position you have. If they don't have relic of prog. or something to eat your graveyard, then using grudge out of your graveyard to kill a jitte/aether vial is a great move. Not a waste of resources.

I mix up all those Islam religions. Same way I mix up greek/roman mythology.

Stoneforge Mystic? Check.
Ancient Grudge? You bet your ass.

I tried replacing the main board Careful Study with Brainstorm in the past and I didn't like it but since I haven't tested it against combo I'll give it a shot as draw spell #13-16. I didn't like Winds of Change when I tested it against combo.

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Originally Posted by Gui

This is innacurate. Nature's Claim should be kept in side Primarily to fight Leyline of the Void. Against other kinds of hate, all it does is clog your hand with cards that makes the deck malfunction.

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If all you are using Nature's Claim for is to fight against LotV, wouldn't Wispmare serve a better purpose?

I can't ever see myself dropping Ancient Grudge as that card helps against so many matches. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

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Originally Posted by Claymore-One

If all you are using Nature's Claim for is to fight against LotV, wouldn't Wispmare serve a better purpose?

I can't ever see myself dropping Ancient Grudge as that card helps against so many matches. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

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Touché. Given the amount of Mental Misstep, and how rare it has been to attack targets other than Leyline, maybe going sorcery speed @ 3cmc to evade MM is worthy.

I don't drop Grudge as well, I always carry at least 3.

Iv played grudge and iv played pithing needle,i like needle agenst stoneblade better because u can name stoneforge or batterskull. Also hitting a late grudge gives them the chance to return batterskull to the hand. They can do the same in response to needle but after that one time thats it and u can continue drdgeing not worrying about lossing more brides. If needle is played on crypt or relic it eliminates them top decking and activating either one. Were as if u have grudge and they top deck crypt or relic they can still activate it in response. U can also play needle turn one on the draw and or play witch stops first turn crypt or relics......for the rest of the game lol,making the rest of there hate dead draws. Needle also stops the green creatcher that east graveyards,were as grudge just doesnt get there lol. Theres so many more strategic plays that can be made,needle is better. I also like wispmare for that purpas. Its great when u play it on lotv and they only have mm. I have played winds in the last couple tornaments iv been to. It didnt relly do it for me dawg,i cut them and put in 1 dr 1 flam kin 1 sphinx. I did it because u can just kill them first were as winds doesnt just win. Forgive me i dont know the green guy that eats graveyards name.

I don't like Pithing Needle simply because you need it in your hand to fight hate. With Ancient Grudge, you can simply dredge into it and not look for it on your opening or try to dig for it by drawing (not to mention wasting an opportunity to dredge) from your library.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Sup pal. First of all, I'd like to say that LED lists are awsome, and you're in the right path.

And there are just a few comments I'd make to your list, because it's pretty solid, indeed:

Those 3 Darkblasts in the 75 seems wrong for me when playing LED lists. The whole point of LED is turning Dredge into a straight-foward combo and making the whole engine a turn faster. That said, I'd strongly recommend cutting them from the 75, as the only thing you should really care about is graveyard hate.

I'd also add a singleton Flame-kin Zealot in the main deck. That Woodfall Primus is really nice, but he belongs in sideboard. The explanation is already written above: with LED, you only care resolving your combo, and not disrupting anything on game 1.

Your sideboard is pretty nice, I liked it. Leyline of Sanctity is arguable the best card in your sideboard. It's a free way to deal with grave-hate/discard without drawbacks. BUT, you should never mulligan to it, unless your hand is really unkeepable.

Another thing I'd like to say is that 4 Wispmare is way too much, since you only have 8 white-mana Lands, which is a little low to devote 4 slots to a single hate.

And tell me more about your Merfolk matchup, please. I've been playing LED lists for a while, and it was pretty hard to lose to a Merfolk, since they can't really remove my Bridges aside from Cursecatcher, can't landwalk us, and play weak grave-hate (a.k.a Relic/Surgical Extraction). Of course, they can draw godlike into multiple Lords + some permission, but that's not really the case, since they don't have library manipulation.

This is my latest LED list:

Lands [12]

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Dredgers [12]

4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

Business [14]

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return

Draw [9]

4 Breakthrough
3 Street Wraith
2 Deep Analysis

Free Dudes [7]

4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid

Others [6]

4 Putrid Imp
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths

Sideboard [15]

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Ichorid
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge

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Hi, regarding your SB what do you side in /side out when playing against merfolk, rock and sui black?
I also plan to use Leyline of Sancity in my SB but not sure when to use it except for burn/rdw deck. This is what my SB looks like:

Sideboard:
3Chain of vapor
3ancient grudge
2nature’s claim
4leyline of sancity
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 iona
1 terestadon

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Originally Posted by iam09

Hi, regarding your SB what do you side in /side out when playing against merfolk, rock and sui black?
I also plan to use Leyline of Sancity in my SB but not sure when to use it except for burn/rdw deck. This is what my SB looks like:

Sideboard:
3Chain of vapor
3ancient grudge
2nature’s claim
4leyline of sancity
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 iona
1 terestadon

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Against Merfolk:
+3 Ancient Grudge +1 Elesh Norn
-3 Breakthrough -1 FKZ

Against Rock:
+4 Leyline of Sanctity +1 Terastodon
-1 FKZ -1 Cabal Therapy -1 Golgari Thug -2 Street Wraith

Against Suicide Black:
If expeting Leyline of the Void:
+4 Chain of Vapor +1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
-1 FKZ -1 Sphinx of Lost Truths -1 Deep Analysis -1 Street Wraith
If expecting other hate:
+3 Ancientr Grudge +1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
-1 FKZ -1 Sphinx of Lost Truths -2 Street Wraith