The build that I am running would have a hard time casting dreams...red is really just a splash for Punishing Fires. I like charm because it's a catch-all: TNN, D&T, the ocassional RIP or Counterbalance...Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
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The build that I am running would have a hard time casting dreams...red is really just a splash for Punishing Fires. I like charm because it's a catch-all: TNN, D&T, the ocassional RIP or Counterbalance...Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I'm in the same boat as Mith here. The mana is strained as it is, the red is just for the Punishing. Although one gets RR, or even RRR sometimes, because of the Moxen and Knight fetching, it's not something that can be counted on.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
For TNN the solutions are to clear out the opponents other creatures with Punishing or Abrupt and then Liliana edict, Abrupt the TNNs equipment, have a large Knight so the TNN is on block duty or lastly (or rather firstly) just fly over it with a Marit Lage.
The Charm is just a all purpose tool that's good vs. a great many matchups, as is evident by the large number of other decks running it in their sideboards.
Hurts to cast it with -1/-1 when you have a Confidant and Arbor in play though :(
My experiences are the same, Depths account for the most kills, second would be people conceding to a combination lock of Punishing Fire, Wasteloam and Liliana. Third, and by some margin, would be an incidental aggro approach of Confidants, Teeg, Arbor, etc., this usually occurs in unconventional matchups such as against Combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by mith
I think the confusion arises from that some of us (myself being guilty) is discussing 4 Color Loam, which isn't really the same thing as Aggro Loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by markkugel
But seeing as 4 Color Loam doesn't, to my knowledge, have a dedicated thread, and the two decks are cousins of sorts, we fester and derail in here.
In 4 Color Loam I feel that the Knight is the centerpiece of the whole deck. If you are allowed to untap with it once your usually in great shape, if you untap with it twice you'll win more often than not.
In a conventional Aggro Loam list it wouldn't make much sense to run the Knight over a Crusher, Goyf or even Terravore.
I do like your list though.
Hey guys. I am former Junk Depths player but after getting crushed by Death and Taxes few times in row, I decided to try another build of KotR/Loam/GSZ/Mox/Chalice core deck. Right now I play Dosferras 4c loam build (+1 Tarmogoyf, so 61cards in general) with a few tweaks in SB. This deck is absolute blast to play, especially G1 (until they bring the gy hate in) and quite challenging. I love it!
The part I struggle the most is sideboarding. Or just "what to take out" part. How do you guys SB against grindy matchups (tons of discard, shamans, removals) like BUG or Jund? I usually take it couple of moxen, Teeg and CotV. And what about UW miracles? The matchup seems even / slightly unfavorable for us. What is your experience?
Another question, mostly aimed to 4C Loam players - are you satisfied with 4 Leyline of the Void? I know this card crushes Dredge and Reanimator, but it takes 4 slots and is too narrow (read almost unusable in any other matchup). I would like to play more versatile card.
My sideboard, for reference:
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Golgari Charm
1x Choke (not sure here, too straightforward)
1x Slaughter Games
1x Toxic Deluge (similar effect to Engineered Plague, but more versatile; handles opposing Goyfs while keeping my KotRs)
1x Maelstrom Pulse (catch-all answer - miracles, midrange decks; not sure if Decay is better as Decay handles t1 Deathrite Shaman)
1x Bojuka Bog (I used to play Bojuka in Junk Depths with high success)
1x Rakdos Charm (replaces Ancient Grudge, sort of GY hate)
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Tarmogoyf (idea, needs testing)
The idea behind Tarmogoyf plan is simple. Comes in against Goyf decks, Merfolk, Goblin and few others (so decks without Rest in Peace). My Goyf stalls their Goyfs, because we play Punishing Fire to deal last point of damage. Also every Decay on Goyf means less Decays or Edict Effects for my KotR. We also play many removal spells and one or two unchecked Goyfs can change the game in our favor quickly. As you can see I give up on graveyard hate. Firstly it is metagame choice. Secondly, I can't figure out what good gravehate card put into the deck.
PS: I apologize for not using card tags, but don't knwo how :confused:
Leyline can also come in against Other Loam decks if you want since the effect is not symmetrical. I'm always a fan of running Rest in Peace, but obviously you can't run it in this deck. I'm not a huge fan of Leyline, but sorcery speed GY hate is pretty terrible, and it's probably better than something like Tormod's Crypt's.
Juste with :Quote:
Originally Posted by Lio
[.CARDS]2x Dryad Arbor
4 Toxic Deluge[./CARDS]
remove the dot to make it works :
2x Dryad Arbor
4 Toxic Deluge ;)
PS : it's all on the firsts pages of the forum : http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...rd-tags-(2-0!)
Lio,
Against most fair decks, the matchup is good enough that you should not want to sideboard a whole lot. What are you having trouble against?
I'd probably cut a teeg and (or other completely dead card) for something marginally better, or not sideboard at all.
Against miracles I feel like I'm a bit favored. This matchup is pretty list dependent but my plan is to play the hatebears role as much as I can and usually end up winning the game with punishing fire.
I think that becoming even more graveyard dependent postboard is a bad idea as people like to put in some grave hate against us no matter what kind of deck they are. if you are looking for an anti-goyf, Scooze does a pretty good job. Against Goyf/Merfolk/Goblins it can be a good idea to have board wipes in your sideboard; your knight, goyf, and scooze can survive deluge/pyroclasm and such so they can be pretty one-sided.
The worst thing that can happen vs miracles is that they get Entreat. Which is why you should play Slaughter Games. Without Entreat, it becomes borderline impossible for them to win. Especially if they lack or run very few RIP.
I run 3 Slaughter Games in my sideboard. It's great for anything hard for us to overcome. Plus it can't be countered.
If you can manarace Sneak Show for example, via Mox and play it, you deal with half of the problems (like naming Griselbrand since you can solve emrakul with Liliana), or naming Burning Wish vs Storm, and etc.
While I did miss some overall destruction card such as Deed, I feel the maindeck is already good enough vs grindy matches, so it tries the best vs combos, which is the unfavorable match for us, specially since Loam doesn't run discard cards.. so 4 leylines are good, Canonist is good, Slaughter Games is good. BTW I think someone mentioned Lands a while back, well, Slaughter Games into Loam is also a way out.
I have troubles against deck playing BGx core. If they have Deathrite Shaman, I need to answer it immediately. Even with Abrupt Decay. DS is a pain, ruining our strategy. And then I just lose to huge Tarmogoyf beatdown if I lack a removal for any reason. It is difficult to keep the KotR on the table as they also play Abrupt Decay and Liliana and we don't have THAT much threats. And the worst thing that can happen is to draw into Chalice/Mox when I search for the answer or in midgame. That's why I usually side out one or two moxen and one or two Chalice of the Void (especially if my opponent plays Hymn to Tourach or the game will take longer). If I would have extra beater or two (Goyf), it could stick and stall the game long enough to take over. The same goes with extra removals.Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
By the way how many Punishing Fires/Life from the Loams do you board out against Rest in Peace decks (UW miracle, UWR Delver, Esper Stoneblade) if any?
I am new to the deck so it's possible tha my loses come from the incorrect strategy and misunderstanding of the deck.
Against RIP I usually board out nothing because if it ever matters I can easily remove it. Meanwhile I'm playing a bunch of threats while my opponent boarded in cards that are sorta dead.
This is the ideal scenario but I don't often feel hurt by RIP. Some of the locals have even stopped boarding them in against me.
Grave hate is a controversial topic but in my year+ of playing loam decks I have never found it to hurt me in a game that I wasn't already losing.
Against GBx, take notes about where your removal is going and how much you are drawing. All the loam decks I've played have had burning wish so I usually have a healthy concentration of removal. DRS is always bad news and i would mulll all "slow" hands against it. if you are having that much trouble maybe try out some amount of dismember.
Sorry for typos and formating. I'm on mobile
In general you can play around RIP by simply cycling or using grove in response to the RIP to save Fire or Loam, then decay the RIP and start all over. PFire is one of the best gameplans vs the decks you mentioned since they can't generally deal with your Groves, and PFire kills everything you want it to along with becoming your slow win-condition. I actually usually side a Loam out vs miracles simply because they have RIP, plus the game will be slow and you will eventually find one along with the fact that Loaming back wastelands is generally mediocre vs them due to their high basic land count.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lio
That is interesting that you don't side almost anything out in non-combo matchups. I don't see how can I be allright if my opponent plays T2 Rest in Peace and I have to use Abrupt Decay to get rid of i.e. Stoneforge Mystic and my engine is shutted down for several turns because of it. But I will try it your way :).
Could anyone write down how does he sideboard against certain matchups? I think I do the biggest mistake during sideboarding.
I think a 61th card is ok in this deck, as long as it is a tutor target (green creature or land that is).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lio
As you yourself said, Tarmogoyf serves both as defence and offense, Niklas Kronberger used it in his BoM9 winning list after all.
If you feel that you hardly use them, then 4x Leyline of the Void is probably not needed in your meta.
1x Scavenging Ooze and 1x Bojuka Bog should be ok, as they are both tutorable.
The Leylines can come in against a lot more than just Dredge and Reanimator though. For example Storm decks with Past in Flames, Lands or other Loam decks, some Pox versions, some Nic Fit (Volrath's Stronghold, Recurring Nightmare etc), decks that go hardcore Goblin Welder, Oops, all spells!, Cephalid Breakfast and so on.
I agree with pretty everything apocolyps6 said, minimal sideboarding vs. fair decks, pretty even but slightly favored against Miracles and YOLO against Rest in Peace.
Against fair decks Gaddock Teeg out and Qasali Pridemage in, Ancient Grudge if it's a Stoneblade. -1/-1 effects against x/1 decks (DnT, Young Pyromancer et al.).
Don't forget that you can sideboard out lands, Karakas comes to mind.
I might bring out one or two Loams against Miracles, UW Stoneblade and proper Esperblade that runs basics. These also happen to be the decks where Choke really shines. And by shines I mean that it can single-handedly win the game if it shows up at the right time.
Punishing isn't exactly dead if a RiP is in play, it can shoot a Stoneforge, Clique or a Jace that unsummoned for instance, which is a good enough trade.
What can I say, that's what BGx decks do and that is why they are popular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lio
With that said, all BGx decks (the common ones anyway) are favorable for us. Of course we can get out tempoed if we have slow hands and they put pressure on us from the start, but that goes for every deck.
Given that we have Abrupt, Punishing, Lili edict, Maze of Ith, Ooze and Knights, we should more often than not be able to stabilize. Unless we die in a land flood, they won't be able to compete in a long game.
Shardless and Jund can put up a decent fight though, a fairly common scenario against them is that we throw our removal at each others threats and when we have depleted those I go for the combo.
Punishing Fire is king here.
Again concerning RiP and what hasn't been brought up. While Loam and Punishing certainly is the heart and engine of the deck, Chalice of the Void is the third part of the trinity. Against a lot of decks, especially among the tier1 ones, a Chalice for 1 is so powerful that you are usually favored without Loam, Punishing or even the whole graveyard.
My point being, the deck is more than just Loam and Punishing Fire, it's full of powerful cards that are played in a lot of other decks.
I've experienced extremely seasoned magic players, both when they try the deck themselves and when they've played against me, do non-optimal plays, which they hardly ever do otherwise. I'm not sure why, but I presume it might be that they are unable to assess to what extent it is Lands, Aggro Loam and/or midrange (Jund/Maverick).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lio
And in actuality it's both none and all of these decks. Games can take wildly different paths, from what cards you’re dealt and how you wish to use them. Often you have a choice of going either Wasteland and Punishing lock, go a normal game with Confidants, Lili and Abrupts, go for a fast combo if you have a Knight or combo pieces, and then having to change at a moment's notice. I feel this why I find the deck so powerful and so enjoyable.
This does put some pressure on the pilot to know what the correct play is, but then think about how hard it is for an opponent that isn't particularly knowledgeable about the deck.
Definitely in agreement on the misplay thing. One of the best things about this archetype is it allows you to seamlessly move to different points on the metagame clock Control with Pfire, wasteland etc. "Combo" with knight + Lage, Aggro with chalice and big dudes. Midrange where the deck is by default. Even tempo if you can establish a quick threat and rain down wastelands and answers. Players less experienced with the matchup tend to adapt poorly to this.
Thanks guys for the explanation of the sideboarding. It is not clear on the first sight and it feels counterintuitive. One would say we need to board in as many Enchantment Hate as possible when facing RiP decks or board out Moxen/CotV for more removals and creatures in grindy matchups. But now I see it is not necessary as we may have tools for everything. I need to playtest A lot though. The most difficult part to me is to find out when is the right time to make Loam engine going, when to stop Loaming and draw a card regularly, etc.
About my meta - my meta is full of Miracles, ANT, lot of DnT and Delver decks (BUG, RUG), some amount of decks abusing Life from the Loam and pretty much everything (in small numbers) with marginal amount of Reanimator or Dredge. Would you suggest running 4 Leylines or Scooze + Bojuka should be fine?
Edit: updated sideboard based on what you people wrote, hating on the prevalent decks (Miracles, combos), giving up the GY based strategies:
3x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
2x Slaughter Games
1x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Scavenging ooze
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Flex Slot
As you said, we have slightly favorable / even game against fair decks and the most problematic decks are combo decks in general. These matchups are covered by Scavenging Ooze and Toxic Deluge. Against combo, I think we pack good amount of hate bears + CotV, but we can die turn before dropping the crucial creature. Mox Diamond is the card we want to see in every hand. So I thought what about adding Mox Diamond number 5 and 6. One shot extra mana should be enough to slow them down significantly to deploy CotV or another bears. Not sure if would be better Lotus Petal. Advantage of Lotus Petal is the rainbow mana, disadvantage is 0 manacost (CotV@0 and can be "duressed away"). One Flex Slot is for Choke/Slaughter Games/Golgari Charm or GY Hate. Thoughts?
Loam can be a tough deck to play because like you said, you need to figure out when you are going to dredge back loam, or when you need to actually draw a card and such. Once you add in toolbox cards like KOTR and Burning Wish, it becomes very difficult to figure out the "correct" line. It really just takes practice.
Howdy,
About the list I posted before (post #1941, page 98), I made some play-tests with my friends and it is not as good as expected :
1) Devastating Dream is awesome only if not countered. To make it a good play, you need to have cards in hands (let say active loam) and some moxes/big beater into play to effectively take the lead. Imo, it's just too much, plus against blue-decks, very risky
2) Seismic Assault is usually game when it get activated, but is hard to cast (RRR).
3) Chalice is an awesome early play, and can win games. But there is one Chalice on play, there are 3 others "Dead Chalice" remaining in the deck...
So I tried to give the deck more weapons and utilities while trying to stay close to the original deck.
No more Devastating Dreams, PFire (or a resolved Seismic Assault, but hard to cast) are more effective to get ride of opponents creatures.
No more Chalice : As said, one Chalice @1 is good, the 3 remaining are usually dead. (Ok to lose against Storm and other fast combo deck).
-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Devastating Dreams
To help casting BB, RR (and RRR) spells, I added one of the most efficient creature we have : Deathrite Shaman.
It help fixing mana, act as a soft GY and let us gain some HP when needed.
Plus, it is good in multiple, is a 2nd turn GSZ target and can win games by its own.
+4 Deathrite Shaman
I also think Liliana is just too strong to ignore it.
+3 Liliana
And now that Shaman is there to help mana problems and act as a soft GY :
+1 Seismic Assault
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Tarmogoyf to stay at 60 cards
//Artifact (4)
4 Mox Diamond
//Creature (14)
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Knight of the Reliquary
//Enchantment (3)
3 Seismic Assault
//Instant (6)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
//Planeswalker (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
//Sorcery (5)
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Life from the Loam
//Land (25)
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
2 Forgotten Cave
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
I hope this list will works a bit better, I have a small tournament at the end of month, Miracle, Jund, BUG, BURG and RUG Delver decks are expected, plus some Reanimator, Death&Taxes and least one Elves / Goblins.
If you think it sucks to have 3 dead chalices in your deck, think about your poor opponent who is staring at a hand full of one-drops.
Devastating Dreams, while not an all-star is much more flexible than you are giving it credit for.
It works as a scalable pyroclasm when against elves or merfolk or such.
It only really needs you to have a hand and a big guy because casting other spells is often not needed.
It can ruin the gameplan of an opponent who has diligently fetched up basics to play around your wasteland.
You can fire it off with a medium sized X if you have gotten ahead on mana with zenith-arbor, mox diamond, etc. to trade your excess resources for ones vital to your opponent's gameplan
You can get rid of all those dead cards like redundant chalices, libraries, and Lilies or cards that don't mind changing zones like pfire, lands, loam.
It can be a good panic button for when the game has gotten very out of hand and a restart would be good.
I play one in the board (for burning wish) because it is situational but powerful.
Well, I will stay with one in the deck, just to see it here and there. Thx ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
howdy,
I just made some games with frieda today, and I have to say, Countryside Crusher is sexy, but dosent worth its slot anymore in Aggro Loam.
Knight of the Reliquary is just more efficient, more castable and give you utilities.
Plus, Chalice really give free game ;)