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Speed comes with practice. I dunno about Shawn, but I've played counterbalance variants for several years, and I tend to not have time issues against opponents that play at a reasonable pace. If you go into a Brainstorm / Top / Ponder with a plan, it's pretty likely that you can quickly sequence the cards to execute that plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirdie
legacy is a very complex format where every mana tapped, every spell played, every mulligan decision is crucial.
brainstorm is one of the most powerful and most difficult cards to play optimally. when you combine it with top activations, counterbalance triggers, setting up for next turns, knowing how you're going to win, etc... it becomes a very difficult deck to pilot w/o experience.
sure, as with most good decks in legacy, you can walk into free wins because turn1 top, turn2 cb will win a lot of games on their own, as so will turn2 bob and turn2 hymn...
one thing i can tell you is that it took me at least 2-3 years of playing blue decks to stop getting unintentional draws.
I can second that. Miracle is no deck for beginners. You have alot of decisions that have to been made fast. You need quite a shitload of experience. I only drew 1 sanctioned match in my whole life unintentionally - and this was at this GP cause my opponent thought it'd be funny to hardcast Emrakul, which took quite awhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
So, despite me having great success (56th at GP) with a RIP-build I have always been testing and liking every single version of Miracle. But there is one version I never came to test... and it's the 4-Ponder-version. Here is the link to Levy's recent list / success: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=77697
What do you guys think of it?
Greetings
I like going back towards more cantrips, but I still think RIP is powerful enough to not cut it. The Ponders help with the consistency, and make hands without top / brianstorm more keepable. It reminds me of some of the very early lists which always had at least two Ponders. I'm currently testing a more-Ponder RIP list, if it works out at all I'll be sure to post back here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Just went 4-0 at my LGS. I'm still fairly new to this deck, having just switched from UW stoneblade.
Here's my list:
Lands (22)
5 Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
2 Polluted Delta
1cc: (15)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Spell Pierce
1 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2cc: (7)
1 Counterspell
2 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
1 Energy Field
3cc: (4)
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Blood Moon
1 Vendilion Clique
4cc: (5)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
5cc: (4)
4 Force of Will
6cc: (3)
3 Terminus
SB:
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Celestial Purge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Meddling Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Counterbalance
Round 1: Mono Green Infect 2-0
G1: I lose the die roll, and he mulls to 5 while I mull to 6. He goes turn 1 infect elf, I go island top. He pumps his dude bringing me to 5 counters. I find a swords and use it since he's tapped out. He plays inkmoth and another 1/1 infect. I find energy field and lay it down. He reads it. We play draw, land, go for a while and when I find the RIP he scoops.
I SB: Meddling mage x2, Humility, Ethersworn Canonist, EE, Counterbalance for Entreat 2x, RIP 2x, Blood Moon, and 1 Jace.
G2: We both keep 7, my hand being (island, fetch, fetch, top, FoW, Brainstorm, STP). He plays a 2 mana 1/1 infect guy with a lotus petal. I go island top. He plays inkmoth and another infect guy and hits me with a phyrexian mana pump so I'm at 3 counters. I top at upkeep to see nothing useful and play a fetch. He swings, I'm at 6 counters. I fetch, find nothing, play another fetch land, pass. He swings and pumps, I sword, he vines in response and I force of will it, bringing me to 8 counters. I fetch, and then find the energy field. I then find MM naming nature's claim, find a CB, and then wait forever to find a RIP or a win condition.
Round 2: RUG delver 2-0
G1: Lose the roll again. We both keep 7 (fetch, fetch, RIP, RIP, top, StP, Island). He leads trop mongoose. I go fetch-> plains top and get dazed. He ponders and then plays another goose, and I go fetch->island, RIP, he forces. He gets thresh and swings for 6, I play RIP number 2 and it resolves. He starts beating me down with his 1/1's for a couple turns, and I lay a naked counterbalance. I find a tutor and get top even though I had 5 lands in play, he's surprised it's not helm. I'm not sure if it is correct to just go for helm but I don't want to lose to counters as I had none in my hand. I play top, find an entreat, and I just entreat for 1, leaving 2 mana up for spell pierce (which is dumb now that I think about it, considering my top is on top) in his attack step to eat a mongoose. He can't attack anymore and when I land a jace, he scoops.
I SB: REB x2, EE, CB, MM x2 for 4 FoW, Counterspell, and 1 Entreat.
G2: We keep 7, mine being (top, island, tundra, fetch, REB, RIP, brainstorm) He goes volcanic brainstorm, I go fetch and pass as I'm afraid of daze on my top again. He doesn't play a land and just plays delver, I get trigger happy and fetch volcanic and REB, which he dazes. He replays his land and passes. I play my island and play top. Delver flips revealing daze and he starts beating me down. I play the RIP with 1 mana open but he forces. He continues to hit me and adds a mongoose to the board. I find a swords for his delver. He plays a tarmo and hits me with a threshed goose bringing me down to 4. I play a naked energy field since he tapped out. I play land, go for a while I look for the RIP, keeping a terminus floating on top. He eventually finds a wasteland and wastes me. EF dies and I terminus his guys. I soon find a CB, and blood moon which makes his only out sulfuric vortex. I play MM naming FoW because I didn't realize that. I beat him to death while he tries to find vortex.
Round 3: BUG Shardless Gerry T style. 2-1
Game 1: Lose the die roll again, He mulls to 5 while I mull to (land, land, land, clique, rip, venser) He goes sea -> suspend ancestral. I go land pass, and his turn 2 is deathrite and another suspend. uh oh. I play RIP. he adds a shardless -> strix. I play land and pass. He swings with the boys and I play clique and see his hand of Jace and tarmogoyf. I make him cycle jace, and I trade with the agent. My turn I draw jace, but have to leave mana open to venser his visions back. He resuspends and beats me with his 1 strix. I still can't play jace as I need to use counterspell on his visions, so I just play energy field. He adds a shardless which finds a 0/1 tarmo. I finally play jace and brainstorm. He swings everything at jace and I trade venser for agent. Eventually his first resuspended visions hits and I couldn't find an answer as I kept having to fateseal him (hit 2 abrupt decays which was sweet) to keep jace alive. He then legend rules jace. But he can't find a pulse or decay for the field and I find helm and kill him.
I SB Needle, Leyline of Sanc x3, REB x2, Elspeth, EE, Celestial Purge x1 (probably a bad idea, but my thinking was for liliana and deathrite), for FOW x4, 1 ETA, , 2 STP, Counterbalance x1.
We both keep 7, I forgot what my hand was but I know it had a top, ponder and a turn 0 leyline. He goes turn 1 deathrite, I go turn 1 top. He plays a strix and then suspends visions. I do ponder and see volcanic, REB and fetch. I order REB, volcanic, fetch which was wrong as I can draw the REB with top. I play an island and pass. He goes turn 3 jace, and I realize my mistake, he gets to brainstorm. I draw the volcanic and red blast jace. Stuff happens and visions is unanswered. I play a jace but it gets forced (that card is still in there?). Eventually I get a RIP and Energy Field when I'm at 7. He pulses my field and swings with strix x2, agent x2 and deathrite. I have been floating an entreat on top as I'm scared of force and was trying to find a counter. I have to pull the trigger now as its lethal. I tap all my non fetches which is like 5 angels, and he taps 5 to hardcast force of will. I'm so disappointed that one of this two cards was a FoW, and not thinking I let it resolve. I have two fetches open, so now my out is terminus. I fetch and see a spell pierce staring at me, and then I die.
He reaches for his SB since he saw leyline so I reach for mine too. I just move some cards around but keep the leylines in. I take out field for a Force. Not sure if this is correct.
There's only 7 minutes left in the round so it's most likely going to be a draw.
G3: He keeps 7 and I mull to (spell pierce, ponder, land, land, brainstorm, Helm) and I play an island. He goes turn 1 thoughtseize and I pierce it. I ponder, shuffle and draw a land. He plays deathrite and suspend visions. I play land go. Turn 3 Jace again and I brainstorm in response, I don't find an answer but I do find a RIP, a purge and another brainstorm. He brainstorms. I put the helm and brainstorm back. Draw brainstorm and play land, RIP. I have 4 lands in play so I just need 1 more to helm him, unfortunately I don't have another one and my next 2 cards have to be a land if I want to kill him on the same turn. He taps 3 for liliana and plus 1's. I brainstorm in response and see helm, purge and an island. I put back purge and helm on top and discard a stp I didn't use on deathrite because he was just a 1/2. I untap draw helm, play island and play helm asking if he has force. He breaks his fetch, brainstorms and scoops.
Round 4: Deadguy Ale w/ Vials, moms, thalias, etc. 2-1
G1: I finally win a die roll. Keep 7 while he mulls to 6. I play ponder, shuffle, he plays vial. I go land go, and he plays thalia which I respond with brainstorm to find a top, but no answer. I play top for 2, and he swings, and I check top to see terminus. I mistakenly use terminus on my turn even tho he has vial. He vials in mom, and on his turn ticks vial to 2, and plays bob. I have to swords, and in response to mom swords his bob. He vials in SFM to find batterskull. He does nothing on his turn, and I play a jace and brainstorm. I see an entreat. He kills jace, and I eventually find more lands while getting beat down by batterskull so I can entreat for 4 on his attack step and eat his mystic. I win the race.
I SB Leyline x3, Needle, EE, Elspeth for 3x Force, Pierce, and Counterspell and Blood Moon.
G2: He goes turn 1 vial. I play top he goes revoker top and I can't find any answers and die quickly to his army of thalia, bob and revokers.
I swap the in the force for Counterspell.
G3: Both keep 7 and he eventually gets a revoker on top. I get a Jace in play and brainstorm to see terminus and clique. I take the clique and he plays a revoker on jace. Then he thoughtseizes. I clique myself putting a leyline of sanc I had in my hand to terminus. I find an elspeth and just keep fatesealing and bouncing his dudes he equips while my elspeth soldier takes the game.
Basically, I'm trying to figure out how to beat BUG midrange/control decks. I got pretty fortunate in game 3, and I feel like I'm behind all the time against them. I'm not really sure how to sideboard against them either. Also, I'm pretty lucky to dodge most of the storm decks as I don't know how to play against it. For Meddling mage, what do I name? Tutors or win conditions?
I agree with everyone saying that you just have to practice to be able to see the right lines of play quickly. I made quite a few mistakes but you remember those as you play. RIP/Helm is really great for getting those instant wins. I used to use geist as well but he doesn't seem very useful as he just can't swing through anything.
how did you like the leylines when you saw them? i don't know if you want cpurge vs bug, but 1 does not seem too wrong.
ironically I lost every game when I had turn 0 leyline but I really liked them against the discard decks, but that was probably do to more misplays on my part than the card being bad. I usually face a lot of BGx and it turns off so many cards they have to gain an advantage over you. I like how it especially makes Liliana very bad as she can't force you to sack or ult you. I generally had a lot of problems against liliana decks but with leyline and purge, I feel a lot more confident against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Yeah, cpurge was pretty useless against BUG, I would probably keep a swords instead.
how's celestial purge useless against BUG? does BUG run Dark Confidant? Liliana? Deathrite Shaman? The problem with Leyline against BUG is often they SB out Hymn for more threats, in the form of green monsters. I've once seen BUG's SB plan running Garruk Relentless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aetherick
I am not sure why but enchantress seems to be popular in the modo tournament practice room.
Here is a match I just recorded vs GWu enchantress (splashing for energy field from what I saw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcJjiwfrpaU
feel bad for Cedric's fortune. Game 1 Joe has double Entreat the Angels to crush Cedirc's goblins. Game 2 Cedric flips 4 lands off Goblin Ringleaders. Weird thing from Joe, he left in Counterbalance And FoW in the SB games. My speculation is that CB is certainly ineffective if Goblin has either Vial or Cavern in play. FoW is most likely for turn 1 Vial. Joe can certainly explain on this forum later as to his SB decisions. Game 3 Joe drops Humility, which is interesting cause he foreshadows this card on the forum prior to the tournament.
Joe's playing to his outs with shuffling his sensei back to find the 3rd entreat. Beautiful.
EDIT: and he makes top 8!
It is an interesting one but i do not like it very much. We need more lands and I never keep one-lander, no matter how many storms, tops I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Grats on another top 8 Joe, I actually made it back home in time to see the quarterfinals, will see you at the next west coast for sure. Unless you decide to do Minneapolis in August or St Louis in June, as I am considering those already, but it's "not in stone" just yet, I just don't know if I want to wait 6 months until the next one over here.
The amount of success you have with this deck compels a part of me to actually build it and play it just based on the # of attempts & # of top 8's alone, my brain screams at me with how consistent that is, it's almost too stupid for me to ignore.
I agree, I don't think we can skimp on lands the way Ponder-heavy, low curve decks like RUG and combo can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koplinchen
Also, just when I was starting to get the hang of the Jund MU, Shardless comes along and kicks Miracle ass all over again. I'm finding the latest Shardless BUG build to be pretty terrible for us. It has less pressure than Jund, but almost the same discard package. It has more ways to find Abrupt Decay and plays it's own Jaces.
abrupt decay is not even good vs us. you just have to play w/o counterbalance, try it :-)
I find the shardless BUG matchup hard as well, but yea, taking out counterbalance post board is probably a good idea as they find abrupt decay easily, you won't get a lot of card adv with it. RIP makes deathrite and tarmogoyf useless so the largest creature they have is 2/2.
Surprise angels is pretty strong as their only outs are FoW (if they kept them in) and maelstrom pulse which you can counter.
Leyline also turns off liliana, hymns, thoughtsieze, etc. It's always nice when they cascade into a discard spell they can't cast.
Visions is annoying, but at least if they suspend it, you have time to find a counter or venser.
Kinda surprised you guys board out CB in the BUG matchup. Do you take out force of wills as well? How many cards do you really have to bring in in this match up?
Also, I've seen a couple lists running around that run only 1 CB in the mainboard. What's up with that exactly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradstone
Yeah, CB comes out - it is unlikely to accomplish much or to stick around. Some # of forces come out for REBs & V Cliques. If it's BUG Delver, Meddling Mage comes in to stop the Sinkhole plan. If they have Liliana, I bring in Celestial Purge and O Ring.
you also get the backdoor plan of shutting out their jace fateseal/ultimate w/ leyline and overloading the m-pulses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aetherick
http://blog.mtgdeals.com/oarsman/scg...-legacy-top-8/
Medium length recaps of each round.