Printable View
Speaking of Welder. Vs Chalice, should these two be seperated threads? The way I see it, it's the same difference like AnT and TES.
Also, I haven't done much playtesting due to my busy work schedule. I will be testing my page68 list against Canadian Threshold. I might also test my occasional Welder list against it.
here is the list that i have been working on:
// Lands 24
4 [RLM] Ancient Tomb
3 [JGC] Polluted Delta
2 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [UNH] Island
1 [HOP] Seat of the Synod
1 [MR] Great Furnace
3 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
// Creatures 8
3 [PRE] Wurmcoil Engine
4 [JGC] Goblin Welder
1 [NPH] Batterskull
// Spells 28
4 [MMA] Chalice of the Void
2 [FNM] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
2 [FNM] Lightning Greaves
1 [US] Phyrexian Processor
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 [CNS] Dack Fayden
2 [JGC] Intuition
1 [FBP] Ratchet Bomb
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FBP] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 1 [ISD] Witchbane Orb
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [REL] Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 4 [MPR] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [MR] Mindslaver
i am using chalice of the void and trinisphere as 4 ofs, as they seem to be quite strong in the meta that i play against. chalice on turn 1 for 1 counter is ideal, so i have the full suite of cavern of souls to be able to cast my namesake goblin welder. if i was going a more combo-oriented route i could see using 0 chalice of the void main, and move them to side or something, but chalice blocking 1 mana cost spells seems very good versus a wide assortment of decks so im trying it out this way.
trying not to be too heavy into the graveyard 'combo' plan, i am using 2 thirst for knowledge for card advantage instead of the full 4 intuition (which combos amazingly well with welder).
my sideboard could probably use some work, as i am sure 'who is the beatdown' theory could be better applied to the decks that i am trying to sideboard against. lodestone golem has come to mind as a card that can shut down strategies and offer a more aggressive approach to matchups, with a mere 4 manacost.
phyrexian processor is a 'cute' inclusion that i am testing. until i can actually DRAW it or NEED it even once.. i will test with it. i have to kill someone at least once with it, its on my bucket list haha. theoretically it is for matchups where they have path to exile or swords to plowshares (or similar) to exile wurms. perhaps batterskull is strictly better here, but this card is versatile in a few unorthodox ways (like being able to generate any p/t creature to work under ensnaring bridge etc). theoretically you can also 1 shot someone who has taken a bit of damage if you can haste the token with greaves. that said, its probably better suited as something else.
im not sure witchbane orb will matter against the decks where you want the shroud. they will probably just tutor up a bounce spell and make it pointless to even have it (unless i somehow manage to assemble 2 welders to keep it in play, before they kill me with the aforementioned line of play).
any suggestions, questions, critiques would be greatly appreciated :D thank you!
I've been playing this list http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=71384 since I came back to the game after 18 months away in March (GP RVA, I know it was modern) and have had a lot of success with it, finals of 1 SCG open trial, top4 of another and an IQ top 8. The only decks I really have problems with are Elves(which I think I've figured out, torpor orb) Imperial Painter (epic matches that help me remember why I love this game) and Shardless BUG.
Any suggestions on making the Shardless BUG match better? Abrupt decay wrecks the trinisphere/chalice plan.
Any other suggestions on Elves? I feel like siding out the sundering titans and putting in the torpor orbs should help the match, usually I get them locked out of 1-2 cc stuff and they blow up the Chalice on 1 with Reclamation Sage:mad: and then just wreck me from there.. at the same time, I always draw the slow them down stuff and never anything aggressive to beat them down to go with it..:rolleyes:
I've found Karn to be completely useless and removed him from the deck entirely. I've tried Eldrazi and they don't fuel the Metalworker so gave up on them. I've tried Thousand Year Elixir and didn't really like it either.. it actually slowed me down since its 3 mana.. first turn Lightning Greaves into a metalworker is so much better.. With that being said, if I see a plains or mountain I will try to land a chalice for 1(favorite play in the format, period.) or a trinisphere first to help keep him on board. The card that has been great for me is Staff of NIN.. It has helped me draw that 1 extra card to refuel or fix a bad draw and also shoot down little annoying dudes like Dark Confidant, elves, etc..
I've messed with the Welder version to get around the annoying blue decks but I've found chalice of the void to be so much better against them and combo and burn.. Cavern of souls has been pretty good also, it usually sticks as they try to cut off the cloudposts and 2 mana lands with their wastelands.
I plan on taking this deck to 2 more SCG IQ's in the next few weeks and also to GP NJ so any insight on this truly awesome deck would be great!
Hello everyone, I've been gone for 5 weeks without internet so I'm kind of out of the loop as far as a lot of things are concerned. If anyone could briefly explain if there are any recent developments, finishes, or meta game shifts or generally anything related to this archetype. Any response is appreciated, as I don't have the time to research much that has happened as far as MTG is concerned.
Welder mud at 7-0 on scg, where's the hype?
He's in top 8 :DQuote:
Originally Posted by whatwas
And its a welder build! Sad that he didn't get out of the first round of t8. Heres his list http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=72081Quote:
Originally Posted by whatwas
Thoughts on his mana base?
I quite like it. A bit low on lands for my liking (I like to run 21-22).
I like his list also.
I think running the crucible with diamond fixes the land count issue a bit. The mana base seems fine, its what metalworker lists were running years ago before the post lists turned up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
My question is what does running the welder list give you over the post list. My current thinking is that it improves your control matchup and mana consistency at the cost of your inevitability at the late game and significantly reduces your combo matchup pre board.
What does everyone else think?
Welder is a nasty way to cheat creatures on board. Allied to Metalworker that's two threats to worry about if you're the control deck.
Some neat plays:
-Supposing you discard an artifact land, you can exchange it with a tapped Grim Monolith back into game. And then again next turn.
-Exchange Wurmcoil with another (and get two tokens)
-Cheat countered/discarded creatures back into the game.
-Bonus Mindslaver infinite turn combo.
Not used in this scg list but also doable:
-Sundering Titan shenanigans
-Cheating into play from a turn two Gamble/Faithless Looting.
I do wonder how did it go with both Welder, Voltaic and Chalice in the mainboard.
He actually stated in his t8 profile he'd drop the spine for a sundering titan mb. Chalice is perhaps MUDs best weapon and i feel its to powerful to not mainboard even if your running welders. Sure it a bugger to lock your welder out but honestly if you plan your plays it shouldn't be an issue, especially now that cavern is a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
I think if Welder was to be used, it better be in its full combo potential. Trying to use it in the late game against control is pointless because it will be removed or it will never resolve (unless you Cavern it out)
I could be wrong though but from the looks of it, it couldn't outlast Shardless BUG which is a mid to late game deck.
Here are my notes from play testing against Canadian Thresh Stifle standard list. I was playing my page68 list as my main with no set sideboard (my binder is my sideboard)
G1 (no sideboard):
Win the dice roll and kept a Factory, Wasteland, Cloudpost, Chalice, Sphere and 2 Moxen.
I started with Moxen discarding post, wasteland into a Chalice for 1 which drew a FoW. His turn 1 was Delver. I go for turn 2 Sphere which resolved. His Delver didn't flip and I waste his land. I didn't drew much lands but kept attacking with factory. His delver was raced faster and he has permission to keep him going.
0-1
G2 (sideboard: -3 Forgemaster, -3 Revoker, +2 Wurmcoil, +1 Hellkite, +3 Ratchet Bombs):
Kept a land heavy hand with 2x Factory, Cloudpost, Vesuva, Wasteland, Wurmcoil and Chalice
I went for a turn 2 Chalice at 1 which got Spell Pierced. His was a Goyf. I go for a turn 3 Sphere of Resistance which resolves. My turn 4 was Wurmcoil under Sphere thanks to Cloudpost which resolved and my turn 5 was Metamorph copying Wurmcoil. I won that game
1-1
G3:
Mull a 6 land seven and a no land 6. My five was Vesuva, Factory, monolith, Bomb and a Titan.
He goes for a turn one mongoose while mine was a Vesuva copying his land. He then went for a turn two Goyf while mine was Monolith to Tangle Wire but the wire got Dazed. I tried resolving the Bomb but it got Pierced.
1-2
G4:
Kept my seven that had Vesuva, Glimmerpost, City, Moxen, Sphere and 2x Wires.
My turn 1 Sphere resolves. My turn 2 topdecked Chalice at one also resolved. My turn 3 Wire also resolved which slowed the game long enough for me to establish my land base.
2-2
G5: (-2 Wurmcoil, +2 Batterskull)
Mull to five with Vesuva, City, Monolith, Bomb and Wire
He Ponders on turn one while I resolve my topdecked Chalice at one. He goes for a turn two Goyf while I resolve a Bomb. I end up resolving Wire which slowed him enough. Bomb gets rid of Goyf and I develop my land base. I resolve a Lodestone and waste his lands.
3-2
G6:
I kept City, Glimmerpost, Wasteland, Moxen, Wire, Golem, Wurmcoil.
My opponent goes for a turn 1 delver while I did nothing. He followed it up with a Goyf while mine was a Lodestone with the help of Moxen and Monolith. His next turn was waste my land and bolt my Lodestone. He got there before I developed my board.
3-3
G7:
I kept Factory, Glimmerpost, City, Wasteland, Bomb and 2x Lodestone.
Turn one land for me while he goes for a mongoose. My turn two was Bomb while his was waste my land. I pop the Bomb and his mongoose and go for Golem with the help of Monolith. He Bolts my Golem. I resolve the second Golem and waste his land. He's stuck with one land and does nothing. I resolve a Chalice @ 1 Tangle Wire after and he can't recover.
4-3
G8:
I kept Cloudpost, 2x Glimmerpost, 2x Factory, Wire and Hellkite.
He goes for a turn one Delver while I risk and go for a Cloudpost. Delver didn't flip but he went for a Ponder and Mongoose for turn two. Mine was Sphere with Daze insurance. He goes for a turn three Goyf and goes Aggro on me. I slowed him down with Tangle Wire and resolve a Hellkite under Wire and Sphere thanks to Cloudpost. Hellkite ate his creatures.
5-3
G9:
I kept City, Tomb, Wasteland, Cloudpost, Moxen, Sphere and Hellkite.
He goes for a turn one Ponder while I go for the early sphere with Daze insurance thanks to Moxen. He goes for a turn two delver while mine was just a second Moxen. He tries to go Aggro by resolving Goyf but I resolve a Wire which slowed him enough to help me develop my land base. I ended up going to two but I eventually locked him out with Chalice at 1, multiple spheres and Hellkite.
6-3
I find that the matches all come down to Delver + permission back up. If he has that, I can't beat it. If he doesn't, I can certainly lock the deck out. I sided out Forgemasters because I'm scared of Stifles. I tried to side in more threats to compensate with this. Revokers won't probably be relevant on this so they got sided out for Bombs. Bombs can blow up Aberrations right away and can also deal with Mongeese and Goyfs (though too slow).
My opponent sided in two ancient grudges but I am surprised that I didn't see them. My opponent said that usually when he drew it, it was too late since the spheres are on full effect.
I switched wurmcoils to Batterskull because they can come in a turn faster and it's cheaper to cast (relevant with Sphere). It also comes as two permanent which is relevant with Wires.
Out of my tests, Factories have been the worst land. Becoming a 2/2 is irrelevant when you can't completely lock the game. Theoretically you can but I haven't really achieved it. I'll probably try Cavern or Ports. Though the 2/2 artifact can also be used as Forgemaster fodder.
Are there any questions, comments or suggestions? I'll go for Patriot Delver next for playtesting.
-Is there any situation in which you'd wish Sphere were Trinisphere? I always thought Trini was better at the early game, as it paves the way from counters at, say, turn 2 plays, when starting explosive.
-I agree switching Wurmcoils to Batterskull if you don't have Welder. It's way more resilient that way.
-As for the substitution of Mishra's, a card I really like is Hall of the Bandit Lord for the haste ability. The only draw back is the pay 3 life, but surely has won many games!
3sphere is way better in the early game but my list is geared to take advantage of mid-late game decks. While Sphere can only do so much, it does some of the work. I also like how it comes a turn early. It's drawback on your side isn't so bad that you can take advantage of the Post mana base.Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
I think I'll also switch the maindeck Wurmcoil with Batterskull. Metamorph copying Stoneforge can also grab it and cheat it.
I'll see with Hall as haste can be relevant. While my list doesn't run as many threats and no Metalworker, a hasted Forgemaster or Hellkite can be a game changer. I'll probably change the 4 Factories with the 4th Wasteland, 2 Caverns and a Hall.
I've independently developed something quite similar. I still have Karns but no Spine of Ish Sah main board. How often do you find yourself tutoring for it? With no welders I like it less main.Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguekeeper
Hi guys, I'm just new to this thread, But I've been using MUD for a very long time now and this is my take on the Legacy version of it.
I also used the previous list posted and tweaked it a little bit and in a more prison version. I'm quite happy with the results and made it to the top 8 afterwards. This is the list: www.mtgtop8.com
My biggest concern for this deck is getting paired up to Elves, Goblins, Burn/Sligh and any super aggro decks which does fast damage early. I boarded Cursed Totems and Revokers for the Elves and Trinispheres for Burn and the aggro decks and hope that I'll be on the draw, Otherwise, I'll go for an early Tangle Wire or Lodestone Golem.
I always disciplined myself to always have a CoTV for 1 on the draw or if not possible, a CoTV for 0 if I don't have any idea on what I'm dealing with.
As you can see, there are some random threats in the deck. One of which is the Emrakul, which I call the "Special Guest" of the deck since there are times that the mana build-up is frequent and if ever Emrakul comes up then it's almost a win on your side.
I haven't had a chance to play against Post-land mirror, but I've played with Forgemaster versions and it's always a win for me since I have more control and much more post-board.
Comments are very much appreciated, hope to learn more from you guys. :)
One thing I noticed, why no spheres? Trinisphere or Sphere of Resistance to slow the opponent.
Also, how was maindeck Smokestack treating you? I find that it's dead against decks that are faster than you like combo and tempo.
Has Bottled Cloister been helpful? Would you consider the hand hiding helpful or has it ever set you back? (opponent destroying it on their turn). Would you consider Coersive Portal on that slot?
1. I'd rather have a CoTV for 1 since it kills most of the spells available for tempo, aggro and combo decks and I can easily setup a bigger threat on the next few turns after I play a Grim Monolith for just 2 mana. Either way, if the opposing player is on the draw, a resolved Delver of Secrets is already a clock and my gameplay would shift into a more aggressive mode, putting up a much early Tangle Wire and/or Smokestack or better yet, an uncounterable Wurmcoil Engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
2. Yeah, Smokestack doesn't do a thing against combo decks, but they're a big hassle to tempo and MUDForgemaster decks when it resolves then followed up by a Tangle Wire. Postboard, I remove the Smokestack in exchange for the Trinispheres for the combo matchups.
3. As far as I know, most of the decks played here doesn't have a built-in artifact removal preboard. Bottled Cloister has been very helpful against decks with Thoughtseize, Hymn or Liliana. The 1 Cloister is removed postboard in exchange for other control elements.
Also, I don't play it to SneakShow decks for obvious reasons. :tongue:
I played today in a small tournament with 3 rounds and went 1-2. Won Shardless BUG and lost for 2 Miracles control. Damn miracles are bad match for me. I played this kind of list http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13347&iddeck=98035. Has anyone ever tried Uba Mask in sb? In one game guy won even after I destroyed 5 of his lands with Sundering Titan and waste. And when they get Jace online we are doomed. Well maybe I try welder style next time.