[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

@morphberling
I would say against D&t toxic is your best card. The MU comes up to mirran crussader, if they manage to play its your only chance to win, and if you resolve it, chances are you will win. It is true is hard to reach 4-5 mana in these games but in my experience if you get to them you have a favorable mu. This is one of the reasons why i like the meddling mage SB, people tend to underestimate the possibility of siding in the scrubland against mana denial decks when it can be game changing. I didn't do it against d&t at the start but came to the conclusion(after a lot of testing) that is the best idea.

Recently I have been playing the following list but was considering taking one hymn to the side and bringing sykvan ibrary to the main deck. I think sylvan is a card that wins games on its own while being good against almost any deck, hymn despite improving our best MU can be hard to cast against delver decks. What do you think? also has anyone tried jitte as well?

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent

3 Ancestral Vision
4 hymn to tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 misty rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 creeping tar pit
1 hissing quagmire

SB:
1 Scrubland
2 Meddling Mage
1 vendilion clique
1 thoughtseize
1 toxic deludge
1 golgari charm
1 umezawas jitte
1 desfigure
1 sylvn library
1 surgical extraction
1 gravediggers cage
1 baleful strix
1 primordial seal
1 Null Rod

So I registered this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor <---hedge against miracles
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit <---hedge against miracles

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief
1 Sylvan Library

Shardless: 1-2 (he had Volrath's Stronghold which is the most insane card in the mirror ever, even better than Notion Thief. My wasteland-light approach couldn't handle it. He also found it every game)
UR Delver: 2-0
Angry Loam: 2-1
Infect: 2-1
Sneak and Show (Chris VanMeter): 1-2
Angry Loam: 2-0

I ended up 9th on breakers :(, 2 12 pointers made it in but not me. I had fun though, and I got to meet some really cool people (like lordofthepit). I also got to crush Aggro Loam and lucksack against infect on camera :)

I was really expecting a lot of Miracles, but next time I think I will play 3 wastelands 1 tar pit because it was not as present as I thought it would be. Only 2 in the whole room. Also 2 Jace was too many, I think either a 3rd baleful strix or maybe some maindeck thoughtseizes may have been better.

Guys Volrath's Stronghold is awesome!

I have been testing it since I lost to it yesterday and it makes pyroblast so bad for Miracles. You just keep putting Shardless on top, and they can't REB it profitably. Only STP or Terminus "deal" with it. Also it makes Counterspell bad vs Goyf and DRS

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ironclad8690

Guys Volrath's Stronghold is awesome!

I have been testing it since I lost to it yesterday and it makes pyroblast so bad for Miracles. You just keep putting Shardless on top, and they can't REB it profitably. Only STP or Terminus "deal" with it. Also it makes Counterspell bad vs Goyf and DRS

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It's been great in slow matchups when I tried it, but I've reliably hated it against Delver and Death and Taxes. It's like Jitte in that I think it's both very slow and very polarized.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ironclad8690

So I registered this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor <---hedge against miracles
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit <---hedge against miracles

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief
1 Sylvan Library

Shardless: 1-2 (he had Volrath's Stronghold which is the most insane card in the mirror ever, even better than Notion Thief. My wasteland-light approach couldn't handle it. He also found it every game)
UR Delver: 2-0
Angry Loam: 2-1
Infect: 2-1
Sneak and Show (Chris VanMeter): 1-2
Angry Loam: 2-0

I ended up 9th on breakers :(, 2 12 pointers made it in but not me. I had fun though, and I got to meet some really cool people (like lordofthepit). I also got to crush Aggro Loam and lucksack against infect on camera :)

I was really expecting a lot of Miracles, but next time I think I will play 3 wastelands 1 tar pit because it was not as present as I thought it would be. Only 2 in the whole room. Also 2 Jace was too many, I think either a 3rd baleful strix or maybe some maindeck thoughtseizes may have been better.

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How many players? Only 2 miracles, but how many Eldrazi?

37 People I think, only 2 Eldrazi

Hi,

I was the round 1 opponent ironclad8690 played at CK, and I've advocated for Volrath's Stronghold on here before.

I will be the first to admit, it's not always great. While I did get lucky to draw it pretty early on in my games against ironclad, where it's pretty good, I also drew it early on in other matches where it was no better than a basic Wastes.

That being said, I still like it over a third Wasteland (or 2nd Tar Pit). I just don't like playing the mana denial game in most cases with Wasteland, so having three or more seems unnecessary to me. As already stated, Stronghold is good in grindy matchups, including the mirror. It's occasionally good against Miracles, but not particularly- sometimes you get to recycle a Baleful Strix that they countered or destroyed but your guys aren't typically hitting the yard very much; on the other hand your Wastelands generally aren't going to be doing much against them either. I've only played it against RUG once, and in that case it was just fantastic because my opponent couldn't find a Wasteland for it; it also helped that he was a little slow on the uptake and kept swinging into my Shardless Agent to let me recycle it more. Currently I have a Life from the Loam in the sideboard, so a Wasteland isn't necessarily the end of the the Stronghold fun.

On Saturday I played Eldrazi in the semis, only maybe the 2nd time I've played Eldrazi with Shardless (the first being online), and Stronghold was magical there. They really have few ways to deal with it. Obviously, they can kill you before it's a factor, but if you can stay alive long enough, it can really pay dividends.

The MVP of the day for me was Sylvan Library, though. I think it's gonna be a mainstay in my main deck for a long time.

Anyway, here was my 75:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

4 Ancestral Vision
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Sylvan Library

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Life from the Loam


I don't have a full tournament report but here's how my day went:

Round 1: vs Shardless (see ironclad8690's post above) - Win
Round 2: vs Bant Post Ramp (you can see this deck at work in Round 1 of the coverage, at https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/67783020) - Win
Round 3: vs Miracles (on coverage) - Win
Round 4: vs Miracles - Loss
Round 5: vs Enchantress - Win
Round 6: Draw into Top 8

Quarters: vs Eldrazi - Win
Semis: vs Miracles (same opponent as round 4) - Loss

Quote:

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Originally Posted by matunos

Hi,

I was the round 1 opponent ironclad8690 played at CK, and I've advocated for Volrath's Stronghold on here before.

I will be the first to admit, it's not always great. While I did get lucky to draw it pretty early on in my games against ironclad, where it's pretty good, I also drew it early on in other matches where it was no better than a basic Wastes.

That being said, I still like it over a third Wasteland (or 2nd Tar Pit). I just don't like playing the mana denial game in most cases with Wasteland, so having three or more seems unnecessary to me. As already stated, Stronghold is good in grindy matchups, including the mirror. It's occasionally good against Miracles, but not particularly- sometimes you get to recycle a Baleful Strix that they countered or destroyed but your guys aren't typically hitting the yard very much; on the other hand your Wastelands generally aren't going to be doing much against them either. I've only played it against RUG once, and in that case it was just fantastic because my opponent couldn't find a Wasteland for it; it also helped that he was a little slow on the uptake and kept swinging into my Shardless Agent to let me recycle it more. Currently I have a Life from the Loam in the sideboard, so a Wasteland isn't necessarily the end of the the Stronghold fun.

On Saturday I played Eldrazi in the semis, only maybe the 2nd time I've played Eldrazi with Shardless (the first being online), and Stronghold was magical there. They really have few ways to deal with it. Obviously, they can kill you before it's a factor, but if you can stay alive long enough, it can really pay dividends.

The MVP of the day for me was Sylvan Library, though. I think it's gonna be a mainstay in my main deck for a long time.

Anyway, here was my 75:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

4 Ancestral Vision
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Sylvan Library

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dismember
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Life from the Loam


I don't have a full tournament report but here's how my day went:

Round 1: vs Shardless (see ironclad8690's post above) - Win
Round 2: vs Bant Post Ramp (you can see this deck at work in Round 1 of the coverage, at https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/67783020) - Win
Round 3: vs Miracles (on coverage) - Win
Round 4: vs Miracles - Loss
Round 5: vs Enchantress - Win
Round 6: Draw into Top 8

Quarters: vs Eldrazi - Win
Semis: vs Miracles (same opponent as round 4) - Loss

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How is it best way to win against Miracles?
I've some problem with this MU...:frown:

There are some very delicate gamestates that you want to get into:

1) Where you are pressuring them enough to make them not have enough mana each turn to do everything they want

2) Hymning them down backed up by pressure so they have to dig with top every turn and you tempo them out that way

3) Not overcomitting too many creatures to the board. If you already have a Shardless Agent and a Deathrite Shaman do not cast another deathrite or shardless given the chance (for example).

4) Don't waste Shardless Agents. If there is nothing Abrupt Decayable on board maybe think twice about casting that Shardless Agent (unless you need the pressure right away).

5) Gain small advantages and never leave yourself open to missing out on incremental damage. On of the hardest parts of this matchup is using DRS correcctly. Do not try to exile STP from their yard if they are representing Snap -> STP mana, you will get blown out. Instead aim for something they can't cast (whether that is because they don't have enough mana or it is a sorcery out of main phase). That being said, if they don't have snap mana up exile that STP so they can't use it in the future!

6) Try not to activate creeping tar pit into open mana unless it is your only attacker and you have to.

7) Get a feel for when you really need to use your abrupt decays. If you are too frivolous and use it on a Snapcaster or something you might get locked by countertop.


I know these are kind of abstract, but do your best to finish them before the game goes too long. Don't board out Force of Will, it leads to very good tempo plays, and we have to assume that role in this matchup.

Make sure you have enough cards to board in. Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Library, Flash creatures, planeswalkers, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ironclad8690

There are some very delicate gamestates that you want to get into:

1) Where you are pressuring them enough to make them not have enough mana each turn to do everything they want

2) Hymning them down backed up by pressure so they have to dig with top every turn and you tempo them out that way

3) Not overcomitting too many creatures to the board. If you already have a Shardless Agent and a Deathrite Shaman do not cast another deathrite or shardless given the chance (for example).

4) Don't waste Shardless Agents. If there is nothing Abrupt Decayable on board maybe think twice about casting that Shardless Agent (unless you need the pressure right away).

5) Gain small advantages and never leave yourself open to missing out on incremental damage. On of the hardest parts of this matchup is using DRS correcctly. Do not try to exile STP from their yard if they are representing Snap -> STP mana, you will get blown out. Instead aim for something they can't cast (whether that is because they don't have enough mana or it is a sorcery out of main phase). That being said, if they don't have snap mana up exile that STP so they can't use it in the future!

6) Try not to activate creeping tar pit into open mana unless it is your only attacker and you have to.

7) Get a feel for when you really need to use your abrupt decays. If you are too frivolous and use it on a Snapcaster or something you might get locked by countertop.


I know these are kind of abstract, but do your best to finish them before the game goes too long. Don't board out Force of Will, it leads to very good tempo plays, and we have to assume that role in this matchup.

Make sure you have enough cards to board in. Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Library, Flash creatures, planeswalkers, etc.

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This is something I will try. I've been having a little trouble, as well. I'm taking this to a monthly win-a-box on Saturday, and I'm playing it because there are a couple eldrazi players and a bunch of fair stuff and basically no combo besides dredge and a modern-esque version of elves with Collected Company. There are also a couple of Infect lists, but I was wondering if you could give me tips on the Merfolk matchup, there are 3 lists at the shop I go to, and it could be a bad matchup for me as far as I can tell. Boarding advice and strategy would be helpful if you have a little time. Maybe I will make room for Clique in my board, though, unless Jitte is better for some reason for my meta.

Thanks in advance. I'm slowly reading the thread, so if this is in here somewhere, sorry, but I haven't had time to get through the whole thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

This is something I will try. I've been having a little trouble, as well. I'm taking this to a monthly win-a-box on Saturday, and I'm playing it because there are a couple eldrazi players and a bunch of fair stuff and basically no combo besides dredge and a modern-esque version of elves with Collected Company. There are also a couple of Infect lists, but I was wondering if you could give me tips on the Merfolk matchup, there are 3 lists at the shop I go to, and it could be a bad matchup for me as far as I can tell. Boarding advice and strategy would be helpful if you have a little time. Maybe I will make room for Clique in my board, though, unless Jitte is better for some reason for my meta.

Thanks in advance. I'm slowly reading the thread, so if this is in here somewhere, sorry, but I haven't had time to get through the whole thing.

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What helped me is to be really patient with my FOW. I think you should only use it to force Jace or Entreat. Maybe Mentor?Blood Moon if you do not have an answer. Also Forcing through a Jace you slam on T3 or 4 is really good (They should not have UU or R up in a perfect world in that scenario).

The only thing I'd add is to acoid needlessly throwing stuff away to Liliana if you don't board them out. I've gone to cutting Liliana completely postboard and just leaving my MD discard in. We want to be using it strategically, either to tempo them out like ironclad said, or to force key spells through countermagic, or to sequence our other plays properly. More and more people are running Predict lately, which keeps our Hymns and Thoughtseizes productive longer. We just don't care about most of their cards. Mentor isn't scary without multiple Tops or a substantial grip on their side. Snapcaster is similarly unimpressive as a 3-drop Baleful Strix variant and can typically be safely ignored/eaten with Goyf rather than Decayed in most situations. I'm up to 2 Pulses postboard, and I keep a Deluge in the main as a hedge against Mentor.

Merfolk is tough to give advice for. You will either get removal + pressure or you will just keep drawing ancestral visions or FOW when you need removal.

Definitely board out FoW, Null Rod is worth it because they bring in Jitte and Chalice, you want as much extra removal as possible from your board. If they have misdirection there will be many opportunities for them to screw you, and I don't think I have ever won after having an Ancestral Vision or Hymn misdirected.

Try to capitalize on their creature light draws is the best I can say. Sometimes they will just keep drawing gas/lords/TNN/phantasmal, their deck is sort of made to do this as consistently as possible. If you have an opportunity to Thoughtseize a Silvergill out of their hand, take it. The CA they get from Silvergill is often how they overwhelm our removal heavy draws. Try to save wasteland for manlands unless you get a really good opportunity like no vial and missed land drop or something.

Don't decay Chalice on 1 or 0 unless you REALLY need to, like when you have an Ancestral Vision on 1 counter.

Don't forget that in dire times you can wasteland your own island if you only have 1 to block their lords.

In my experience this matchup is maybe 45/55, but it could be 50/50.

I've also found Merfolk to be close most of the time, but I think it's slightly in our favor. Try as hard as possible to operate off of just Swamp, Forest, Bayou, Bayou so the fish have to rumble with your Goyfs. They usually don't have removal so DRS will typically be enough to support your Blue cards. This obviously also makes Tar Pit excellent as a non-island Blue source. Toxic Deluge is great, as is anything that shuts down their artifacts. Liliana also shines.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ironclad8690

Merfolk is tough to give advice for. You will either get removal + pressure or you will just keep drawing ancestral visions or FOW when you need removal.

Definitely board out FoW, Null Rod is worth it because they bring in Jitte and Chalice, you want as much extra removal as possible from your board. If they have misdirection there will be many opportunities for them to screw you, and I don't think I have ever won after having an Ancestral Vision or Hymn misdirected.

Try to capitalize on their creature light draws is the best I can say. Sometimes they will just keep drawing gas/lords/TNN/phantasmal, their deck is sort of made to do this as consistently as possible. If you have an opportunity to Thoughtseize a Silvergill out of their hand, take it. The CA they get from Silvergill is often how they overwhelm our removal heavy draws. Try to save wasteland for manlands unless you get a really good opportunity like no vial and missed land drop or something.

Don't decay Chalice on 1 or 0 unless you REALLY need to, like when you have an Ancestral Vision on 1 counter.

Don't forget that in dire times you can wasteland your own island if you only have 1 to block their lords.

In my experience this matchup is maybe 45/55, but it could be 50/50.

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Thanks, all of you, I suppose I should have posted what I'm working with.

4 DRS
2 Strix
4 Goyf
4 Agent
1 'Stalker

3 Vision
4 BS
4 FoW
2 T-Seize/Hymn (Not sure which for my meta, currently on the seizes, as I prefer the choice, plus I'm not very lucky)
1 Library
4 Decay
1 Pulse
1 Deluge
1 Liliana (Not 100% sure I want it main, but if it's good against fair decks and merfolk, I think it has to stay)
2 Jace

1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 CTP
2 Wastes
1 Trop
2 Bayou
3 Sea
2 Misty
4 Verdant
4 Delta

And my sideboard I'm still unsure of:

1 TNN
1 Clique
1 Needle
1 N. S-Bomb
1 G. Cage
1 DoN
1 N. Rod
1 Jitte
1 Library
1 G. Charm
1 Deluge
1 N. Thief
2 Leyline
1 Flex - Suggestions would be great but right now I've got a Duress here.

If there is something you would do different, I'm interested. This is what I've been testing for almost a month now, and I've been playing Junk previous to this. There are some similarities but other things still feel a bit foreign. I often feel light on removal, but as far as I can tell I'm not being choosy enough with it, and same goes for my Forces, I think. With a meta like mine, lots of creature-based decks and fair strategies, do you think something like Propaganda is a decent strategy, just to slow their clock down and give you time to stabilize/race?

In a creature meta I would probably look to some sort of recurring removal engine, such as Volrath's Stronghold/Baleful Strix or Darkblast. Pernicious Deed is awesome in the sideboard too. Trying Garruk Relentless more lately, he can be great vs creature decks and Miracles especially.

I would probably play the Hymns over the Seizes in a creature meta. More chance of hitting high impact 3 drops.

Jitte is great in that sort of meta too. Takes over the game completely even with no way to tutor.

Isn't Invasive Surgery better Vs ANT/TES then Surgical Extraction?
If the opponent resolve a Infernal Tutor could be too late but if we counter it and exile all the copy for he/she is more difficult win. I'm getting this all wrong?:confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnBell

Isn't Invasive Surgery better Vs ANT/TES then Surgical Extraction?
If the opponent resolve a Infernal Tutor could be too late but if we counter it and exile all the copy for he/she is more difficult win. I'm getting this all wrong?:confused:

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Well, that would sort of depend on a number of things:

First, how quickly and reliably you are getting Delirium.

Second, in this deck, are you willing to take the risk of Cascading into this?

Third, are you willing to sacrifice the versatility of Surgical Extraction, since it can hit any Type card, to be brought in versus something like Dredge?

Fourth, Surgical can be cast for free where Surgery costs mana always.

I'm not saying you want either card, but indeed, versus a Storm deck, I think Surgery is better than Surgical, however, I long ago gave up on trying to bring in Surgical versus a Storm deck, so YRMV.

Hello there,

Recently I made two playmats for my this deck, feel free to use/print it if u like it :tongue:

(Vintage playmat with Ancestral Pyramid + Jester Mask)

http://i.imgur.com/syHVq2f.jpg

(Landscape with Liliana, Jace, Tarmogoyf, ancestral pyramid, baleful strix and jester mask)

http://i.imgur.com/p1s1mLC.jpg

I hope you like it, cheers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnBell

Isn't Invasive Surgery better Vs ANT/TES then Surgical Extraction?
If the opponent resolve a Infernal Tutor could be too late but if we counter it and exile all the copy for he/she is more difficult win. I'm getting this all wrong?:confused:

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More likely you'll just end up exiling all copies of Cabal Therapy or Duress instead.