How was 3 DR? Did you ever need the third? Did you ever wish it was Breakthrough/Therapy?
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How was 3 DR? Did you ever need the third? Did you ever wish it was Breakthrough/Therapy?
I really liked the 3rd dread return, there were a couple of games when I used all three. I generally side one of them out for my side board. I rarely wanted one of them to be a cabal I think 3 was a good call for the metagame and if I saw non black thresh or a control deck of the same caliber I put the 4th cabal in.
One thing I have noticed with my build is the 4 careful studies allowed me to dig when they resolved, a good example is in round 14 game 3 vs. merfolk a resolved careful study turn one got me a chalice of the void that stopped his two tormods in hand which allowed me to make the best play ever.....his next turn he played a relic(his first turn, yes he kept a hand of a tormods and a relic then drew another tormods) on my second turn I made 12 zombies and a 17/17 cave troll(sided out the flame-kin) and won on my third turn with no yard left(he reliced me).
All in all my gp performance showed me that my old pet deck can really come through in a large environment that was heavy with agro control.
Did you ever wish that Careful Study was Unmask, or that you had SB firestorm/MD CoB?
@Ozymandias- I have never tested unmask, personally I think it is a little on the weak side since it removes a black card but I could definitely be wrong it does really help with therapy calls. If it wasn't such a dead card in the graveyard I would use it in an instant, but where as my blue enablers are useless in the grave when I see them in hand they allow me to win the game where as unmask just lets me protect myself a little. I would want to run it as a 3 or 4 of in the deck to actually see it in my opening hand and I would have absolutely no clue how to do that and keep the consistency and explosiveness my version has.
With firestorm I also have had no testing with it but since I am running the UB version and not the rainbow version I couldn't say. I like that it allows me to ditch cards to my grave and clear the way of creatures but it is a little more situational than careful study. Careful study allows me to ditch cards, replace dredge and dig for answers. Where as firestorm allows me to ditch cards and take out creatures(and then remove my bridges if I happen to ditch them).
Neither one of these cards grabbed me as extremely powerful and needed in the deck so I have not tested them, sorry for the lack of real input.
Well, compared to your list, mine is +4 City of Brass, -4 Underground Sea, -2 Careful Study, -1 Gemstone Mine, +3 Unmask, -1 Golgari Thug, +1 Breakthrough, and -1 Dread Return, +1 Careful Study. I can see that Unmask is tied to 4 Therapy very stongly, but with ANT becoming a bigger part of the meta, it helps your chances a lot of the time. I think that Study is totally
a legit choice, but I think you would want to play 4 Breakthrough to maximize your extra self-discard.
Did you ever wish that you had another reanimation target to go with 3 DR, and which one? Woodfall Primus/Angel of Despair/Blazing Archon/Reveillark/Akroma/Inkwell/SSS?
How did Cephalid Sage work out for you? I know a lot of people prefer to use Eternal Witness/River Kelpie.
I also took ichorid to chicago and got wrecked during the main event. I won a trial with it pretty much rolling over everyone and then just got trumped in every game during the main event. Here is a quick report...
GPT-
Round 1 I face affinity. He wins game 1 since I had kept a slower hand. I blow him out games 2 and 3.
Round 2 I face eva green. Game one I win. Game two he gets leyline. I careful study into a chain of vapor. Bounce it and win.
Round 3 I face threshold and win handily in 2 games.
Round 4 I face loam. Game one he gambles for glacial chasm but I am able to knock it out of his hand and kill him. Next game he drops explosives and finds a chasm. I seem to be in trouble since my angel of despair cant kill them both but I topdeck breakthrough and proceed to win.
Round 5 I face feldmen dredge. Feldmens list is a pile. His only chance is leyline so I win game 1. Game 2 he has double leyline. Game 3 I win turn 2. Wohoo for 3 byes
GP
Round 4- Playing against some survival/combo deck
I win game one then mull a mediocre hand in game 2 after my opponent mulls into what I think is a leyline. In the end I mull to oblivion and lose. In game 3 my turn one attempt to wins gets screwed by terrible dredges and he proceeds to win a few turns later while my dredges suck.
Round 5- I get paired against thresh.
Game one is a blowout for me. Game two I fight through double crypt to get one turn from the kill and he topdecks another crypt. Game 3 I mull to oblivion.
Round 6- I get paired against thresh and finally manage to win a round even though I mulled to oblivion one game.
Round 7- facing red death
This round is close as I mull 7 times during the games, but I am able to win in 3 games.
Round 8- I face thresh and mulligan 8 times during the match. My deck sucks
Round 9- I face some rock type deck and win game one handily. Game two we mull to 4. Game 3 I mull to 5 but keep a solid hand. He disrupts me with some techy creature that removes my 2 dredgers in resp to my breakthrough and proceeds to kill me.
Anyway the deck was very strong, I just mulliganed something like 30 times in 6 rounds. I went to 4 or fewer cards 5 times during the day and kept only 2 7 card hands.
@andrew77 - I am glad you did so well in the prelims, I'm sorry that you did not so hot in the main event. Is it possible we can see a deck list, I am personally not sold on an angel being a dread return target at all. I have tested it and I rather speed over it.
@Ozymandias - going down to 3 breakthroughs was a really hard choice and so was going down to 3 therapies. Going down to 3 breakthroughs was ultimately a meta choice. In my experience breakthrough is an all or nothing card. You either already have a graveyard and win or you need another spell to resolve in conjunction with breakthrough. I think there is nothing worse than having one land and casting breakthrough at 0 to just dump your hand for dredging. I see break through as cephalid coliseum 5-8. In my testing going all in on a single breakthrough(casting breakthrough then pooping LED) is a bad idea since a single force of will could wreck you. I knew I would see lots of agro control and wanted to maximize my threat density against said decks. So I went 4 careful studies, when they get forced thats fine, I normally had some sort of back up in my hand. Don't get me wrong breakthrough is a house I cannot count how many games I won during GP riding a well timed breakthrough but the decesion to go down one was what made my deck a little different and I think a little more consistent.
Speaking of consistency I wanted 3 dread returns to help that game one win like I said earlier I did use all 3 in at least 2 game ones during the GP. In those games I had a combination of bad dredges or they had main deck graveyard hate where I needed the third dread return to "steal" the win (my teammates words not mine).
With DR targets I have tested a few, river kelpie is amazing but I think it falls a little short of cephalid sage. Kelpie can get you more draws but that relies on other cards and doesn't let me discard any cards. I think I have ranted enough on the fact I don't like cards that rely on others(as a dredge player I am sure you know why). During the GP and my testing Sage was amazing.
I am unsure how well your dredge deck ran but my deck gold fishes a consistant turn 2 win(not sure how consistent I didn't keep track of percentages but I would say a little less than half of the time more if I am on the draw turn 1). During the GP I won at least 5 games on turn two and 3 of those were during game 1. I decided to make my deck go for speed over anything else. Also during games 2 and 3 I always left in 2 DR's and at least a flame kin or Sage (which one completely depended on the deck I was facing)
Sadly I didn't play a single ANT deck all day. I tested the match very hard since I thought I would see it a lot(I did but playing next to me not across). This match is all up in the air if I get turn one I can win it but if they go first I have to hope they get a bad hand because they will win on turn 2 most likely. Games 2 and 3 are a little better since I throw chalice at them and that helps to slow them down while my cabals can rip their hand. All in all I think the match is about 50/50. I did much better than that in my testing but none of my testing partners were amazing at the deck and it seemed a very luck based match but I didn't feel the need to change my main board to deal with it.
But the more I talk about unmask the more I would like to give it another try. I might draft up a decklist in a week or so and give it a try at my local tourny(since I have been doing so well with the deck I smell some extra graveyard hate heading my way so I plan on giving dredge a rest and play a few of my other pet decks)
Is it possible to cut DA and LED, but not increase the land count, like LED-less Ichoid?
and then add something like 2 Tireless Tribe & 4 Careful Study, or else...
I don't know, but everytime I play Ichorid, I board LED and DA for other cards, because I fear Relic/Crypt, and don't want to throw my hand in a LED and then my opponent removes my grave...
I really never liked DA, it wins so rarely, and you don't need it after an Breakthrough.
When LED is your only discard outlet for dredgers and you use it in the upkeep, you still can't use the mana for DA, because its a #*%$Sorcery
Here is my List:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
4 Narcomoeaba
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Eternal Witness
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Firestorm
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Deep Analysis
///
4 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Unmask
3 Firestorm
thoughts???
btw: Inkwell Leviathan is the BEST random fattie imo, It can block Goyfs and Crushers, etc. safely, without dying (unlike SSS), and it can block the biggest creature in swarm-aggro decks without dying or survive the swarm-aggro (unlike E. Archangel), it has also Shroud, and is nearly unblockable because of Islandwalk, and 7 str is huge...
It was so often the random No-Brain Win, because the opponent nearly can't do anything against him...
YawG
If you want to cut LED, I would recommend adding extra lands. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with boarding it out against decks bringing in Crypt or Relic; you almost always should. In your case, you bring in Unmask and/or Firestorm that can replace LED as a discard outlet. Unmask can facilitate the turn one win, and Firestorm can serve as a one-shot PImp by emptying your hand EOT if they have no hate in play. LED is still good post-board against decks without those two cards, and it can still allow a turn-one win if you play first game three.
With Witness, there are also a vast amount of plays you can make with LED that no amount of lands could reasonably do. It also makes Coliseum much better, and Deep Analysis is too good with LED not to use.
I would never run a "Finisher" creature main, since it's rarely needed Game one. While I agree that Leviathan is the cream of those right now, I wouldn't run him either. Control decks are running "Edict" effects now to deal with Progenitus, and I rarely side in big guys against Control anyway. The reason to have a fattie is for either decks that can outrace you (Burn, Storm Combo, Goblins), or decks that can easily remove your Bridges. Ancestor's Chosen puts you out of the range of Tendrils and Burn, and lets you outrace Goblins with just Ichorids. A lot of these decks can outrace Leviathan if he's all you have. Chosen also has the advantage of being mostly irrelevant if your opponent removes it. The lifegain will place them in a position where they can't race, or if they can you wouldn't have won anyway with a Leviathan.
Edited correctly**
This is my list that I've been playing for quite some time now with pretty good success, and a pretty solid number of turn 1 kills with it.
River Kelpie is amazing by the way.
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
2 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
1 River Kelpie
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis
# 60
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Firestorm
1 Ray of Revelation
# 15
Yeah, but a lot of decks are maindecking Relics nowadays, because of that, I was thinking to cut LED, and without LED, the DAs are pretty useless...(so cut them, too)Quote:
But there is absolutely nothing wrong with boarding it out against decks bringing in Crypt or Relic; you almost always should.
...suggesting more lands seems fine, but the next best rainbow-land is Tarnished Citadel, and that land sucks IMO, and what would you suggest me in additon to more lands: Study or Street Wraith, or somethig else???
YawG
Isn't there a whole thread for this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
@Superbean
Your list looks super explosive. How much do you miss cards like Ichord #4 and Putrid Imp #4 when you can't get the "combo kill" or cards like DA when you're going off? Also, I count 62 cards, is that correct?
I think Richard Feldman's list is a good starting point for LED-less Dredge. Why I am usually playing LED Ichorid I've recently switched to a version of the deck that is very similar to Feldman's list because I've been facing more and more decks like Merfolk playing quite some relics. What I especially like about 15 lands is that while Ancient Grudge is most of the time too expensive for LED dredge you can take in 4 Needles + a number of Grudges if you decide to add more lands to your list. Grudge has the advantage that it has to be countered twice in case they want to keep their Relic / Crypt in play and that it can also hit other problematic cards, such as Phyrexian Dreadnough, Umezawa's Jitte, Isochron Sceptre that do actually see play in my current local metagame.
And while the deck doesn't have 4 Ichorids you can neglect this weakness because while you are dredging with this build you can cast shitty dudes like Narcomoeba or Golgari Thug at the same time.
However sometimes you definitely will miss LED because Cephalid Coliseum is much weaker without it and you won't be able to race combo any more without it.
I played Ichorid during an event in Oshawa, my list was tuned to totally win first turn or turn around and lose really badly, I ran 4x Lotus Petal and 4x Chrome Mox, the turns where I landed were great but other then that it was shakey but hey you live and you learn. As I look at Superbeans list I like the 4 Petals on top of the land I may have to try this again.
I was running Hellkite Overlord as my "random fattie" and he was a house, but I I were to run another fattie it would be Woodfall Primus due to his sacrifice interactions. I do like that inkwell guy as well I may have to give him a whirl.
Sorry about that, I copied a list from deckcheck, and just edited it to my list last night at 7:00am when I still hadn't gone to bed yet.
I have re-edited the list that I posted above now with the correct cards, and it is a total of 60 cards, not 62.
There's another thread with lots of suggestions for what to use instead of LED in the Established forums. Take whatever your read there with a grain of salt though, as none of the proposed lists have tournament-proven performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
As far as maindecked Relics, it should hardly be a concern. There are only two decks I see with them. Either have Trinket Mage, which is far too slow considering any Game one you should have won by turn four. Or they're Merfolk, which even if it wasn't an awful deck, you should blow out if Relic is not a turn one play on-the-play.
As far as the 4x Putrid Imp, and the 4x Ichorid, the two cards seem to clog the deck as a four of, especially Ichorid.
If I ever have all four Ichorids in my graveyard I can never bring all four of them back, I was actually running Street Wraith for that reason. But cutting Street Wraith from the deck meant cutting back on Ichorid.
As far as Putrid Imp goes, he's only ever useful to me if I have a land in hand and some dredgers, if not then he's almost useless except for creatures to remove to Ichorid. I'd personally much rather see Deep Analysis and Lion's Eye Diamond then a land and Putrid Imp.
Thanks Parcher and Misplayer, if we can keep this thread to the LED Version that would be great. Personally I think the LED version is stronger. I do have the issue where I mulligan to oblivion every once in a while, this version is probably more inconsitent. I have gone down to 4 cards and I have still won games once I actually still won on turn 2. I just think the deck is very strong and can do very well in a thresh/counter top heavy meta.
Also I will under no circumstances bring the number of ichorids or putrid imps down to 3 in the main board. Having four allows you to gurantee you get one in your opening hand(in the case of imp) and they allow you to get to the magical number of 3 (ichorid). I do admit I do side out one ichorid and one putrid imp in most games but having them in the main game one allows you to have a very strong game.
@SuperBean do you have any reasons why we should use river kelpie. Personally I have been wanting to give it a shot but I am not so sure what role it facilitates so I do not know how to change my main board to suit it. I see you ran it along with sage and zealot, doesn't that seem a bit much. I was thinking of putting it in instead of the sage but I am not so sure it is much stronger because it relies on more cards.
@Parcher I agree completely about relic, it has not been a major problem for me it is a turn slower than tormods which really hurts it against us.
Oh on the side boarding issue at the GP Chicago I didn't take out all 4 of my led's once, I only took 2 of them out against dreadnought.dec. I find LED is really strong with breakthough and coliseum I rarely like having either cards without an LED. Also LED is great force of will bait.
Thats just my two cents. I really don't want to get in an argument about which version is better. I just don't like hearing all of this junk about how much better the non LED version is. I have not seen it put up any major numbers and the article flying around starcity proclaiming the LED version sucks just pisses me off (I have not actually read the article, I don't have a premium membership). Sorry I kinda ranted their, I got this question alot at the GP and just kept my mouth shut since I didn't know how well I was going to do and I didn't want to jinx my performance.
River Kelpie has been a champ for me since I've started playing it in the deck. It has amazing obvious synergy with Cabal Therapy, Dread Return, and Deep Analysis alone. Cabal Therapy being the best.
Also, when you end up sacrificing for whatever reason you have the benefit of persist. So you are getting zombies, and the creature back.
My experience with River Kelpie is that when he is Dread Returned you have pretty much won the game.
Another thing that I am toying with is playing an Eternal Witness over my Cephalid Sage to get back Lion's Eye Diamond, Breakthrough, or Careful Study.. I'm not sold on it yet, and I still have more testing to do with it, so we'll see. If any of you are playing Witness, you should let me know what you think of her in the deck.
So river kelpie has done well for you but you didn't tell me why you run it along with cephalid sage, don't they fill the same role. Also whenever I play sage that is generally game you really haven't told me why it is better, I mean if you have a build that ran 4 DR it would definitely be better but I am still not sold on it, and a STP will ruin your day if they save it for a kelpie.
I haven't ran E Witness, I like my DR targets to win me games where as witness gets me back a spell I have to cast to win, which to me seems like win more.
My list is somewhere on this page or the last for reference.