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Finished top8 playing punishing nic-fit yesterday after 6 rounds of swiss. My final standing was 4-0-2
my match up during swiss.
UW Miracle - 2-0
Esper Stoneblade - 1-1 draw
RUG 2-0
Manaless Dredge - 2-1
Punishing Maverick - 2-1. This game was epic. 43mins of game 1. Finished 7mins Game 2 and 3.
Jund - Intentional Draw.
later i will update my tournament report.
Rereading Kevin's Primer, and just realized my Dig Fit list is basically a straight GB list with a blue splash.
--Jace, the Mind Sculptor is the Kokusho/Yosei of my list, and by that I mean he's my go to win-con should a Moat stop a ground assault
--Jace, the Mind Sculptor, as well as a playset of Brainstorm and a singleton Sensei's Divining Top, provide a ton of redundancy and presence in terms of library manipulation. Combined with the natural redundancy of shuffling effects Nic Fit has, the deck becomes increasingly consistent with card quality the longer the game goes on.
However, I hate the clunky "synergy" of Deed and Top with no accessible shuffle effects. Actually thinking of dropping Top for one of the Garruk's. Thoughts? EDIT: That or Batterskull to turn all my utility creatures into bombs.
Creatures (14)
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wood Elves
Lands (24)
3 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Spells (22)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Punishing Fire
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Damnation
1 Innocent Blood
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Meltdown
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reanimate
1 Scapeshift
2 Slaughter Games
1 Thoughtseize
1 Virtue's Ruin
Here is a hybrid punishing fire/scapewish list that came in 20th at SCG.
I'm the Manaless Dredge player here... He steamrolled me :(Quote:
Originally Posted by kabards
BUYING > NIC FIT PIECES!
I've thought about building a list like that, nottz, but I couldn't figure out how to fit everything in there. That list makes it look easy. Is 9 mountains too few for scapeshift to be reliable? I've had games where I wouldn't have been able to kill them with fewer than 10 mountains in the deck.
9 mountains + 2 Valakut should be plenty. You just have to be careful and generally would want to avoid fetching to ensure you have enough. Worst case scenario, you'll kill them with beats or slow roll them. You don't want to be too stretched afterall, especially with Two Towers + avoiding nonbasic hate + having basics for Explorer.
So you finally realized you're just playing BUG Nic Fit? Dig Fit sounds like a Smurf had sex with a Diglett.Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
Can we go back to playing 4 Liliana of the Veil now that Jund plays it as a 4-of? Seems there's more non-creature permanents we care about that deed doesn't cleanup.
The BUG player plays 2 lands on his turn tropical and wasteland? Or am I wrong at 4.17 just after he casts a daze?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayotte
@nottz I love the list, the best of both worlds. Now I do not have to choose between punishing and scapewish anymore :smile: Would it be consistent enough. I would love to hear the opnion of other scapewish/ Pfire players.
You're not wrong. He definitely plays 2 lands in 1 turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire_dk
Thanks so much for the link! Let us talk no more of my innocent blood faux paus. It is among the top few cards in our board, we also don't need 5 surgical effects. 3 Slaughter Games is all we needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayotte
Same as Kevin I'll try and do a report a bit later when Monday morning becomes Monday afternoon. Although I had the bad luck of playing 12-Post twice that day, I much say I'm happy to not have played against Hypergenesis.
Oh wow, that sucks. My own fault for not seeing it. We were both pretty stressed out, so I'm going to say this may not have been intentional.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayotte
Devin keepin' it classy as fuck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siiig
Basically, yeah. Same goes for non-gimmick versions of BGW and BGR Nic Fit (and I by Gimmick, I mean something that the deck is built around such as Rector and Scapewish, not necessarily Punishing Fire).Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Blue adds a nice alternative win-con and some the best library manipulation available.
White adds very sweet removal and some good beats.
Red adds Punishing Fire, which is both a win-con and removal in and of itself. Also, don't forget about REB/Pyroblast in the side.
I guess what I'm getting at is that Nic Fit with a splash is going to have more potential than straight Nic Fit with having less consistency as its price.
Anywho, I still like the name Dig Fit, even if a Rule 34 is violating a Diglett somewhere.
Jupiter NELC -- Febuary 2013
I woke up around 7am with the intent of leaving by 8 (request from Kich who would be driving) after a night of playtesting the crap out of The Rock vs Scapeshift. Anyone who's curious, go after armageddon hard, then just play your game. Once you don't have to worry about it you win (this is post board).
Kich (who had crashed on my couch) was ready to go pretty quick, and we enjoyed some awesome pre-epic-drive coffee. We chilled in the car for a few minutes waiting for Janene, then went and grabbed Dave. Many of you may know Kich as Kich867, from here, the latter two do not come on the source much (to my knowledge).
A stop at dunkin, and about 1 1/2 hours later we arrived at Jupiter. I decided to test Ifh-Biff Efreet that day, as I had found him to be both theoretically and practically a boss. I also wanted to try Surgical Extraction (which led to my problems later in the day). As I was doing my side-board on my deck list, I decided to replace Tsunami (this is my least wished for card in the board), and then Innocent Blood... This was favoring Damnation as a sweep target.
My List for the day (this is off the top of my head, don't kill me for it!)
4x Vet Explorer
3x Huntmaster of the Fells
2x Wood Elves
2x Thragtusk
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Iff-Biff Efreet
1x Blitz Helion
1x Primeval Titan
1x Eternal Witness
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Burning Wish
3x Sensei's Top
3x Deed
2x Scapeshift
Lands: A bunch of them, 24 to be exact.
SB:
3x Slaughter Games, 3x REB, 2x Surgical Extraction, 1x Damnation, 1x Pyroclasm, 1x Perish, 1x Reanimate, 1x Scapeshift, 1x Malestrom Pulse, 1x SOMETHING THAT ISN"T INNOCENT BLOOD
2x Phyrexian Tower are the only tech lands. Something is missing from this list, but I can't remember what, so it's a ghetto list. Perhaps to be updated later.
We get our decklists done, I play a bit against Dead Guy Ale piloted by Dave, and then were off to the races.
Round 1 -- Mono Black Control // The Gate
This match is pretty straight forward, Game 1 ends in a Scapeshift for 18 and a judge call--Expected for everyones first scapeshift combo. Game 2 ends in a scapeshift for 18 (he's at 19) pass, bitterblossum kills him. This match up has a lot of discard, a lot of land grabbing, Top is a good card, burning wish is a good card, sugical on vet after I've popped one won't lost you the game.
1-0 // 2-0
Round 2 -- Bryant Cook -- American Delver (Tempo?)
I look at the pairings, and my heart drops a little bit. Bryant Cook is next to my name. I know I've herd people saying he won't be on TES, at least for a bit, but he's still one of the most renown players in the room. And as I found out, an exceedingly nice guy.
Game 1: He wins the roll and goes fetch, volc, delver. Now, I dunno about this rest of you in this thread, but I've read Kevin's primer front to back (including the blank parts). The volc -> delver play puts him on RUG in my mind, and the only thing it says to Therapy on the primer is "Stifle". I slam Therapy, name stifle, and see brainstorm, brainstorm, stifle, stifle.
Epic.
Huntmaster Thragtusk beats proceed to do what they do, 1-0.
Game 2: I'm so wired that I took a game on Cook that I don't remember much about this one. I think it has something to do with "Delver can't beat NicFit". The games are very grindy, he gets a geist of saint taft out at some point and plays the bounce game with Karakas. I still manage to out beat him and force him to bounce him more often than he could deal with.
2-0 // 4-0
Round 3 -- 12 Post #1
Hype, as, fuck. I sit down across from my opponent at table 1, exchange pleasantries, talk about previous matches and what were dreading. I mention how abysmal my match against 12 post is...
Game 1: He wins the roll, and opens Cloudpost. I sigh, mention how this will be my first loss, and turn on "not a single fuck was given that day" mode. I go faster, I win faster.
Game 2: Board out 1 GSZ and like.. Helion and Ifh Biff, board in slaughter games x3. Go turn 3 Slaughtergames, name Primeval Titan, smash 3 from his hand. Good gamn.
3-0 // 6-0
LUNCH TIME! I ate so much Pizza. Hunts and Thragtusk, and my lands were not amused, and they are now 100% against me doing well.
Round 4 -- BUG
Watch the stream. My hands are shit.
Round 5 -- Mono R sneak attack.
Henry wound up winning out. Game 1 he goes Sand Needle, Sand Needle, Mountain -> Emrakul. I scoop.
Game 2 he goes sand needle, mountain, seething song, sneak attack, emrakul. I don't scoop, but I do lose to cards pitched to an enchantment.
This goes back to the "my hands are shit" thing. My game plan post board was to try and cabal therapy Sneak Attack, and surgical it. Or live until I can slaughtergames it. This didn't happen.
Round 6 -- 12 Post #2
I believe this was a friend of Kevin's. Game 1 we both slam a bunch of lands, he goes SNT -> Emrakul, I drop a deed with double explorer on the board and shift + wish in hand. I deed at 1 for 4 lands (NOT TWO SWAMPS, I ONLY GOT ONE SWAMP), burning wish intending to grab Innocent Blood, realize I can't because it's not there, go to grab damnation, realize I don't have double black. Scoop.
Game 2, no idea. It didn't go well.
Round 7 -- Reanimator
"We are 100%, pants on head retarded over here" -- Kevin
Game 1: We BOTH mull down to 4, I see every huntmaster in the deck, but sadly he reanimates one, then reanimates Grizzy.
Game 2: Standard game, this is a bad matchup for me, I never get a chance to use reanimate shenanigans =(
End the day 3/4 (again), I think 6/8 but I don't recall that part. Kich ended 4/3, Dave 2/5 (this was his first big legacy tournament with Dead Guy Ale), and Janene ran it all the way up to top 8... and by that I mean second place! Super big congrats to her, happy she came. This makes two events in a row where someone in our car top 8'ed ^^;
Stuff:
Iff-Biff Efreet and Blitz Helion, sadly, feel redundant. I love them both, I love casting them both, but I think one of them will get cut. I just need to decide which. Blitz Helion ends the game immediately if he's needed, Ifh-Biff can go super hurricane mode at times to wipe lingering souls // put them on a two turn clock (every game he stuck around for more than a turn against Kich, he won the game).
We don't need 5 surgical effects.
Innocent blood should NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER (with the exception of a sick replacement?) be removed from the sideboard. In regards to killing vet's, it's second to Pyroclasm (colors), but in regards to killing Emrakul (because 12 post is now the most popular fucking deck in the format) it's the end all be all.
My most common board targets (aside from a single Green Sun's coming out, every game, for a Slaughter Games) were my super buddies (Hellion/Iff-Biff/PrimeTime) These three are awesome in fair matchups, but against anything that's particularly fast we can't really use them effectively.
Day Highlights:
I beat Bryant Cook? Got to chat with Kevin a bunch. Got featured! Friend got second place! Sold everything I had that was standard legal (buhbye Olivia, so Kevin, don't prove she's over the top disgusting until she rotates), and finished Legacy Affinity.
Warning: wall of text incoming.
Stage I: Report
The list (same as in my signature, just gonna put it here for convenience):
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Starved Rusalka
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
3x Academy Rector
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Moat
1x Recycle
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Recurring Nightmare
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Phyrexian Tower
//SB
3x Carpet of Flowers
3x Extirpate
1x Memoricide
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Nether Void
1x Humility
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Garruk Relentless
1x Deathgrip
Round 1: Chris with Sneak/Show
My opponent's a little twitchy, but seems like a nice enough guy. I'm getting a combo read on him, so when I call Brainstorm on my blind Therapy I'm not at all surprised at his hand: Intuition, Griselbrand, Ponder, Island, Volc, Sneak, Ancient Tomb. Wonderful. I do a lot of irrelevant things and he ends up splooging on my face.
In: 3 Carpet of Flowers, Humility, Cranial/Memoricide, 3 Extirpate
Out: Nightmare, Moat, Recycle, 2 Deeds, Thragtusk, Empath, Yosei, Sun Titan
G2 goes a bit smoother. I hit a blind Therapy on Show and Tell, and we durdle for a bit. I Extirpate his Shows, and see a Not of this World as a notable card. He also has no bounce. He surgicals my Therapies, and takes note of my various hate....except the Humility. So, when I drop a Rector and he proceeds to Sneak an Emrakul, he doesn't expect what happens: annihilator trigger, sacrifice Rector putting Humility into play. I still had a Carpet and a Top in play, so my recovery would have been fine. He chooses to scoop and do game three rather than waste time trying to fight through it.
He reboards for game 3, bringing in the bounce, I assume. Game three is crazyyyyy close. He goes land, pass, and I Therapy him, bricking on Show and Tell. I see Sneak, Petal, Truth, Tarn, Brainstorm, Mountain. He cantrips, while I make land drops. Eventually he drops the Sneak Attack for fear of my Therapy being flashbacked (though I hadn't hit a creature to do so yet, and he hidden it with Brainstorm anyway, and just didn't shuffle). I assume that this means he probably has a dude in hand, or else he'd be playing more defensively and trying to keep countermagic up for my disruption. I also conclude that he probably doesn't have a counter, since he only drew like 3 cards between when I had information and the Sneak resolving. So, when I resolve Cranial Extraction, it's a crapshoot. I decide that I might be able to fight through Griselbrand (I had double Carpet, so I had all the mana I could ever want), so I name Emrakul. He had one in hand, and no Griselbrands. Good name is good. He eventually Intuitions EoT, thinks about getting 3 Griselbrands for his Sneak Attack, but realizes that if he does that, he actually wouldn't be ABLE to win the game, since his reshuffle is gone. He opts for triple Show and Tell instead. My hand is like, Baneslayer Baneslayer Sigarda, so I'm fine with this. He Echoing Truths my Carpets for a few turns to slow me down while he draws into Griselbrand, but Sigarda happens and starts beating. He hits a Demon, and Shows it to me. I Show one of my Baneslayers. I then proceed to attempt to Pulse Griselbrand. He draws 7, as expected, but doesn't hit the Not of This World, so he has to Force it, dropping to 5. I then Fetters Griselbrand, and he doesn't have another counter, so he extends the hand.
I could have just swung through with Baneslayer to put him to 1+7, so that he couldn't Force my removal, but after seeing the Not of This World, I didn't want to roll the dice, and opted for the safer route. As it turned out, he boarded the NotW out for one of the Truths. I still think I made the right play.
1-0.
Round 2: Joey with RIP Miracles (Feature)
You can watch this match on Jupiter's stream, if you want. The link is back a page.
Game one I just go slow and steady, removing his RIPs whenever possible. Master of the Wild Hunt does serious work, forcing Joey to blow a sweeper on just it, while I sit back with a hand full of power. He can't keep up with me, and dies to beats.
In: 3 Carpet, 2 Garruk Relentless, Cranial/Memoricide
Out: 3 Explorer, 1 Witness, 1 Moat, 2 Therapy
Game two, I'm pretty sure I went a LITTLE too hard, and got punished for it. I think that my misplay comes when I blow my last Deed. I need to watch the video to be sure, but I think that even under Humility, I would have been okay. But, when Joey slammed the Humility, I reacted by instinct and cracked the Deed, forgetting that it would also free his Jace, -and- would provide him with an opportunity to land RIP/Helm and kill me (which is exactly what happened). I got a little greedy there, and he punished me for it.
We had 4 minutes (+3 extension from feature) for game three, so we were both pretty sure it was going to be a draw. I don't even remember exactly what happened -- I know that the game looked like it was going to continue for quite a while when it drew.
1-0-1.
Round 3: Allen with 4-color Fair Deck
I feel like Allen's deck name should be For the Fairest. It was basically Esperblade splash green for Abrupt Decay. I'm guessing that there were Goyfs and Deathrites in it somewhere, but I didn't see any -- I saw Lingering Souls, Stoneforge+package, E.E, Top, Decay, and so forth.
Both games here were a complete and utter brutalization. Game one I assumed he was straight 4-color Deathrite, so Rector slammed down Moat, and we just stared at each other for a while. He eventually hit a Clique, and then Souls, but I had Baneslayer. Then I had Recycle, and I went full retard. He scooped to Titan/Deed lock.
I brought in Carpets and Garruks....can't remember what I took out. I stopped taking notes on that here =(
Game two got to the point where he knew he had lost, and he just wanted to see more of my deck. He did manage to slip out of Yosei lock before completely giving up -- he had one turn to slip free, and he had the Swords to do so. But it was whatever. Like, I had Recurring Nightmare going, and I allowed him to keep hitting me with a Stoneforge with a Feast/Famine on it, because I was playing literal Solar Flare with it, using his guy as a discard outlet. I was amused.
2-0-1.
Round 4: AJ Kerrigan with TES
Blargh.
I had sat by AJ in round 3, so we both knew what the other was on.
I mull looking for discard and don't find it. I keep my six because it has mana, a Top, and shuffles, so my plan is to get the Top spinning looking for Therapies, and pray that he has a slow hand. He doesn't, and I die quickly.
G2 I keep a risky as fuck hand that has everything I want, but is 1-land (It has Therapy+Zenith, so if I hit one land, I can Zenith up Explorer and be perfectly fine). He mulls to 5, and I feel better about my decision. I make a critical Therapy mistake here: I always, always name LED vs TES, and I decide that since he mulled to 5, I'd rather name Brainstorm since he's going to want to dig out of his mulligan. I see LED, 2 Petals, Gitax Probe, and Burning Wish.
He goes Probe into Probe into Gemstone Mine into Chrome Mox (w.o imprint), into 2 Petals into LED into Wish into Empty the Warrens for 16 goblins. Off a mull to 5, with no lands.
I love my life.
2-1-1.
At this point I need to win out to top 8, and a loss likely knocks me out of top 16, so this a very strange situation.
Round 5: Kyle with Superfriends
Kyle's one of my locals, and he's come up in other reports on here before. The games basically revolve around Sigarda, and we both know it. He can't stop a resolved Sigarda except with like one or two cards.
I don't remember many details of these games, other than that in game two, I abused Recurring Nightmare with Witness to keep Vindicating his red sources. He tried to shut down Sigarda a few times, but she always came back. Once, he Humility'd and then Detention Sphere'd her! Luckily Pernicious Deed is a card B)
3-1-1.
R6: Nick Patnode with Permit Hermit
I'm going to use the name he was calling it, because I like that name.
G1 he wins the die roll, and proceeds to drop Underworld Informer. I don't run Swords to Plowshares, so I just play a land and pass turn. He Summoner's Pacts for a Spirit Guide, cracks it to use Informer, and proceeds to mill into Narcomoebas, Dread Returns Angel of Glory's Rise, bringing back Lab Maniac and Azami, and taps Azami to draw a card...which he can't, so he wins.
I know this deck runs Belcher in its sideboard, so I bring in the Leyline of Sanctities. I also bring in the Extirpates and the Cranial/Memoricide, even though I know that the Extraction duo are too slow. Better that they're in the deck than Sun Titan and Yosei.
Game two he mulls. I t1 Therapy, calling LED, and see Simian Spirit Guide, 2 Petals, a Chrome Mox, and an Infernal Tutor. He drops his artifact mana and passes. I Explorer, flashback, taking the Tutor, and he scoops.
Game three he mulls to 5, and I keep a hand with Therapy into Sakura-Tribe into Rector into either Nether Void or Leyline. He goes all in on Belcher t1 with no mana to activate, and passes the turn. I Therapy and pass. He draws a Chrome Mox and plays it with his last card imprinted, so he's at 2 mana. I drop Sakura and pass. It pretty much all comes down to this draw phase. If he doesn't draw a mana source, I win, because I rector out Leyline and he can't kill me.
He rips LED.
Frowntown.
3-2-1.
Round 7: Hank with Esperblade.
We decide to play it out with the hope that the winner cracks top 16. Spoilers: I get 17th.
We have ridiculously long, grindy, fun games, and both of us have a blast. I always love playing against Esperblade with Nic Fit, because regardless of who wins, it's FUCKING FUN.
Suffice to say that game one, there were no lands in my deck that produced mana, and I had Recycle out.
I board out 3 Explorers for 3 Carpets, and that's it. Experimenting with not bringing in the Cranial duo like I usually do vs Esperblade, and I think I like not bringing it in.
Game two he's mana screwed early, while I sit there cackling and not setting off Explorers that I don't have in my deck anymore. He digs out, and we start slugging each other. I eventually gain the upper hand with like 4 minutes left, and take it down.
So, final record of 4-2-1, good for a heartbreaking 17th place.
I didn't play against one Deathrite deck. So....my changes therein didn't even matter.
The only time I saw Garruk Relentless was vs 4-color Fair.dec, and I didn't even need it, because the game was so, so, incredibly over. Deathgrip didn't get boarded in once.
Master of the Wild Hunt was amazing every time he came up / the situation called for him. Definitely a good call there.
------------------------------------
Stage II: Moving Forward
As stated, Master of the Wild Hunt was fantastic, and I didn't even get to play against the decks that he's "meant for."
Recycle is busted. Straight busted. Useless vs combo, obviously, but /shrug. It wrecks fair decks with minimal setup.
Deathgrip was an experiment, and as stated, I didn't see anything where I would have boarded it in. I'm pretty sure that I would rather have another anti-combo card in that slot.
So, let's think about the meta right now.
CRich, you should be paying attention (as should anyone else going to an SCG).
On one hand, we have the combo element. Most of this is Show and Tell or Storm-based. There is little High Tide, little Dredge, little Reanimator.
On another hand, we have a new element, which I am calling Inevitability. This is where I include 12post and Nic Fit. I would also add a few historical decks to this category, such as Thopters -- decks that are usually at least moderately control-oriented, but which have a ludicrously strong endgame. They have inevitability. If 12post, or Nic Fit, or so on reaches endgame relatively intact, bad things are about to happen to your asshole.
On the third hand, we have midrange, also known as Jun k/d + BUG. Jund seems to be emerging as the leader here, probably because of their stronger combo matchup (and potential for random wins). I would actually include Esperblade in this category as well...at least, how Esperblade has evolved.
These three elements form a rock/paper/scissors.
Combo -> Inevitability -> Midrange -> Combo.
As such, we need to focus on combo more than on midrange at this point. This was the sideboard:
//SB
3x Carpet of Flowers
3x Extirpate
1x Memoricide
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Nether Void
1x Humility
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Garruk Relentless
1x Deathgrip
Of these, Garruk Relentless is the only card that should be necessary to board in vs the midrange element of the meta.
Carpets are for blue basic-heavy decks and for combo. Esperblade, Miracles, and any blue-based combo deck.
Extirpates are a weird case. On one hand, they seem replacable, because of the lack of graveyard effects. On the other, they're very effective vs Storm and Show, because you can strip out core elements of their deck with minimal disruption.
Extraction duo are sacrosanct IMO.
Nether Void is THE go-to anti-storm enchantment.
Humility is THE go-to anti-Show and Tell enchantment.
Leyline of Sanctity is amazing right now, and can come in vs Jund and Storm decks. It is also "an" out to Belcher, although that is obviously horrifying for us.
Deathgrip is an open slot.
There were a few times on the day where I wanted a Zenithable artifact/enchantment kill dude (probably Sliver). However, I feel that the board must be made even stronger vs fast combo somehow, and I think that you can't have both.
Many combo players are starting to sideboard Leyline of Sanctity themselves, so additional discard will not help. The time may be here when Mindbreak Trap becomes a necessity. Permit Hermit runs 4 Sanctity in its board, as do most Hypergenesis decks. I expect more combo decks to begin to squeeze in Sanctity as well due to the presence of Jund emerging as the front-runner of the midrange category. Jund runs upwards of 10 discard effects. The answer is obvious.
To that end, I'm strongly considering the following change:
Sideboard:
+2 Mindbreak Trap
-1 Deathgrip
-1 Extirpate
With an eye towards adding a third pending testing.
We need cheap/free interaction that does not get hosed by Leyline of Sanctity. There are only a few options in that category. Mindbreak is, IMO, the best of them. Mana Tithe is another one.
Note that Mindbreak does almost nothing to Sneak Attack-based Show and Tell decks. It IS effective versus OmniTell, however.
This is all fine for Rector, of course, but then what of Scapewish?
Scapewish's combo matchup is....not good, already. Additionally, to fix its combo matchup to something closer to good would probably take too much space.
So, there are two options: keep Slaughter Games and REBs, and try to maintain something like a 35% win rate vs combo, OR drop them for more cards vs midrange/inevitability, and focus on winning vs those matchups...essentially throwing your combo match down the shitter.
I do not currently have the answer here.
Slaughter Games OBLITERATES Show and Tell decks when they have anything resembling a slow hand. It's not close. Their only out is if they have a Leyline of Sanctity in play.
Games is vastly too slow for Belcher, however, and marginally too slow vs Storm (TES etc). There is also the aforementioned Leyline problem, and Leyline is a card that is already good vs Scapewish.
I want to say that the best thing Scapewish can do is to throw away the combo matchup and just focus on beating everything else. That feels rancid to say, but I'm not sure that it's even really something to be argued about. I'll still debating.
---------------------------------------------
Stage III: Punishing Scapewish
I really don't like this.
Let's go over the things I don't like specifically:
-) Meltdown is atrocious and you should feel bad. Shattering Spree or Pulverize. There is no other option.
-) Life from the Loam. I guess it makes more sense with the Grove engine, but I still think it's a waste of a slot.
-) 3 REB effects + 1 Games are the only board in vs combo. This feels uncomfortably low, IF you're going to make the effort of fighting combo in the first place.
-) 2 Huntmasters. Hunts is arguably the best card in the deck, and I wouldn't run fewer than 3.
-) 9 Mountains. It takes 6 mountains to Scapeshift dangerously, 7 to do it safely. That means you have 2 mountains available throughout the course of the game. While this would be fine if you were only tutoring for them, keep in mind that you have a draw phase. If you tutor for a Mountain, and then proceed to draw two over the course of the game, you can't Scapeshift anymore. This feels horrible.
-) 1 Scapeshift, and only in the Wishboard. Scapeshift gets countered. You can't brute-force it through with 1 copy. You also HAVE to resolve a Burning Wish in the process, which is a dangerous proposition, because Spell Snare is real right now, and Counterbalance is a recent memory. Inquisition hits Wish, as well.
-) Running Volrath's Stronghold. I usually turn a blind eye to this (kind of), since I acknowledge it as a player-playstyle thing and not a strict yes or no. But my god, man. Volraths + Groves + Valakuts + Explorers is BEYOND GREEDY.
-) 6 black sources. Scapewish has 8, which is admittedly not great, and I fully admit that Scapewish has a few lingering black-mana issues. Only having 6 black sources seems incredibly risky. I guess you can use Punishing Fire as an additional Explorer sac outlet, and find a Swamp from there, but that feels like way too many hoops to jump through. All Nic Fit is inherently a G/B deck, and is much better when you have both green and black mana. Also note that 2 of those black sources are Mountains, which means you don't even want them if you want to Scapeshift.
So, yeah. There's a lot I don't like. I think that if you want to try to squeeze PFire into Scapewish, you don't do it like this. You can MAYBE squeeze in two Groves without causing ridiculous strain on the mana base, and then you maybe can find room for 2 Fires. 4 Grove 4 Fire is a recipe for disaster.
Obviously, it got 20th, and obviously congratulations are in order. I really don't want to come off sounding like a prick about this deck -- it's an interesting thought, and it probably needed to be tried at some point. But I feel that trying to hybridize Scapewish and PFire will only end in tragedy, and that both versions are more solid on their own than they would be together.
-------------------------------------------------
Very Brief Stage IV: Meta Concerns pt 2
To reiterate this, as I know that there are several people in here who will either be at Edison (myself, come say hi!) or at Cincinnati (which I won't be =( ), play to beat the following:
Jund
------lesser extent Junk
Esperblade
Sneak and Show
Omnitell
Belcher
TES
Combo Elves
12post
BUG Delver
A few notes.
Jund has largely subsumed Junk. As stated in Stage II, Jund is emerging as the midrange deck-to-beat, from the sea of Junk/Jund/Shardless BUG/etc a few months ago.
12post is still uncommon, but more people are building it, and it's really, horrifically well positioned right now, because it has as much/more inevitability as other decks in its category, but it has REALLY GOOD sideboard options vs combo.
There are still a few holdover Miracles players around, but the midrange decks AND the inevitability decks both crush them, so you shouldn't have to worry about them after the first few rounds ** unless they get paired vs a lot of combo.
BUG has largely replaced RUG as the delver colors du jour. Watch out for the versions that have Sinkhole in the board.
UWR Geistblade is going to be making a comeback. It's stronger vs midrange decks than Esperblade, and packs one hell of a punch while being backed up with heavy disruption: which is the same combination that made RUG the combo player's nightmare for a few months. Be prepared to answer Geist of St Douchebag.
Attacking manabases is crazy good right now. TES, Belcher, Combo Elves, and Sneak Attack are really the only decks on that list that don't care if you're messing with their mana base. I'm not sure how relevant that is to us, but it's an observation. The time might be right for Ruination in the sideboard of Red versions, and damn the torpedoes.
I don't know which version(s) are best right now, honestly. At this point, I don't know what I'll be running in Edison. I want to say Rector, but I need to do some testing with Mindbreak first to see if that fixes the fast combo problem. I also need to make sure that I'm up to the mental challenge of running Rector in a 9-round event.
Hmm . . . interesting.
A few (theoretical) questions:
1. Since Combo-Elves is more or less a heavy spell-casting deck, would Mindbreak Trap also be viable against them?
2. Does Tabernacle do anything against Elves or Belcher? To me, it seems that either A) creatures will die! or B) they will be more likely to brick as they have to keep their mana tapped.
3. If facing 12Post, and I Living Wish for Angel of Despair and they SnT PrimeTime, what is my priority of targets like if they have Candelabra and Cloudpost out?
I was thinking of doing a PFire Burning Wish list. No Scapewin. Probably play 3 Wishes... I haven't decided yet. Has this been tried?
The only "spells" they play are Glimpse, GSZ, and Natural Order. None of these are hit by Mindbreak Trap when used properly. If they do Glimpse-chain, they are casting spells one a time, so Mindbreak Trap loses value by only trading with one of their creatures. They would still draw cards off Glimpse regardless. MBT isn't at its best against Elves.Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
Tabernacle doesn't do much against Elves (Gaea's Cradle counters is). It's fine against the Goblins plan vs Belcher/Storm.Quote:
2. Does Tabernacle do anything against Elves or Belcher? To me, it seems that either A) creatures will die! or B) they will be more likely to brick as they have to keep their mana tapped.
It totally depends on the board state. It's hard to gauge exactly which is better in the vacuum.Quote:
3. If facing 12Post, and I Living Wish for Angel of Despair and they SnT PrimeTime, what is my priority of targets like if they have Candelabra and Cloudpost out?
/barnQuote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Priest of Titania also "counters" Tabernacle. And they can then proceed to untap it and go nuts anyway.
Note: if you're talking about as Living Wish target, in that case Tabernacle can be better. You can wait for an opportune board state, then wish for it and slam it down (gently). If you can kill a few elves with it, that's probably as good of a use of a Wish as any in the matchup. Just don't even bother when they have a Cradle or a Priest out.
The only time MBT would be good vs Elves would be if you could manage to nail their "win" when they go off. I'd be fine trading MBT for their Craterhoof, or for a NO if they draw into it after a few Glimpses. Etc. You're never going to get their Glimpse, though, and that's arguably the most important thing to counter. Since you're in blue anyway, ELC, you have much better options to consider -- Envelop comes immediately to mind.
As for Angel vs 12-post, the best thing you could do is trade it for their Primeval Titan. If you blow up a Cloudpost, he's just gonna get more. And one Prime Time has happened in 12post, Candelabra is largely redundant. I mean, it does still do some work, but it's not anywhere near as busted post-Titan because their mana base is arbitrarily stupid at that point anyway.
Missed this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
The problem here is that PFire is an instant, so you can't Wish for it -- as is Crop Rot. The best you could do would be to put in like a Grim Tutor, and even then that's 2RBB and 3 life to get the half of the combo that you're missing.
I mean, you could run Wish just for value, which is probably fine, but at that point you might be better served with a real sideboard. I'm not sure. By all means proxy it up and test it out, though. It's certainly far less heinous than trying to run Scapeshift AND PFire. Burning Wish is compact enough that it can go in either just fine IMO. The real question is whether or not PFire can be without its sideboard, and I'm not sure that the answer is yes IF it cares about combo. If it makes the "fuck combo," decision, then you should be golden.
I walked over yesterday and saw him playing that deck. I was was like there is no way that can work...
Also mt plan was to just have wish as a good value card.
A few thoughts:
First off congrats to Arianrhod and Siiig for reasonable showings at the NELC!
Second, I agree that Punishing Scapewish can't work.
Third, I'm actually already on the Mindbreak Trap plan myself with the rise in popularity of Leyline of Sanctity. It's working well as a supplement to discard and interacting with the combo decks on a different axis.
Fourth, don't actually worry about trying to make the Turbo Eldrazi matchup winnable. It's just not. And certainly not worth dedicating slots too. As far as the Angel of Despair thing, if Primeval Titan hits the battlefield, the game actually ends on the spot. Scapewish is the only version that has a reasonable shot by just racing them, the other versions, don't bother. They have to get really poor draws and you need to get really lucky.
Yeah... We are built to go bigger than other midrange decks. They go Biggest. Damn Eldrazis.
Despite what everyone is saying I've tested the punishing fire/ scapewish list a little bit on the previous page and it has been working fairly well. I think it needs some tuning but it could definitely be good I think. Punishing fire is soooo good right now and I think that it may be worth it.
I find burn decks a little hard to beat if they get the better draws. Are they worth the sideboard slots? Burn is a big part of our meta, its highly unlikely you don't face at least 1 in a 6-7 round tourney :tongue:
Thragtusk beats burn. He basically takes 4 of their cards to "undo", and if they dont deal with him he wins in 3-4 turns. I wouldnt dedicate SB slots to them. It should be a positive matchup already. Just be ready to deal with sulfuric vortex, and avoid nonbasics. Do anything you can use to stall till you land a tusk. If your play red, huntmaster is also a beast. In white, leyline of sancity is already a good card in the meta, but great against burn too. Blue, bring in whatever countermagic you have, just to slow them down. If your on GB, or all you have access to is non-thoughtsieze discard thats fine too.Quote:
Originally Posted by sherko7
If you are seriously concerned, add more thragtusks in the SB. Also Zuran Orb is probably the best general card against them besides what I mentioned above. Note, this is not as good against sligh, or UR delver burn since they have a bit more long term gas and you will need to deal with creatures not just spells.
You definitely want leyline. It's great against them and has other applications.Quote:
Originally Posted by sherko7
The punishing fire list is good and congrats to the homie who went 20th, especially at scg.
It actually does work and to have a recurring answer is very powerful, it'll basically get rid of any small annoying things. In a sense its powerful in the meta right now bc it'll get rid of most of jund, bug, etc dudes so you dont get over run by them. And in a sense makes the elves match up winnable because you can keep shooting their dudes. So i'm not going to say its bad because technically it is actually not bad.
The only problem is it can slow you down because your letting them gain life. Scapeshift can technically be a turn 3 win... well in most of my case.
I'm not going change the list for it though because in my opinion, abrupt decay is just too good to not play, blows shit up, can't be countered.
Siig, man you just had bad draws but after watching it makes me worried that discard is going to hurt scapeshift.
I still think scapeshift is da beast and i've played all of them. oh and yes arianhood is correct, big red is not fun lol
One more question: if I'm in blue, is Flusterstorm an acceptable substitute to Mind Break Trap?
Thanks y'all.
I think that punishing fire scapeshift deck could be good. You have to look at it this way though. Look at that list again. It is not Scapeshift deck with punishing fire thrown in. It is a punishing fire deck with burning wishes so it might as well have scapeshift for those "oops i win" games.
Its far better since you can it can have more uses like against S&T for example. While I dont play BUG nic fit, if I did I would want 3-4 FoW and 2-3 other counterspells (probably negate) in my SB. With access to discard, countermagic and green hatebears/clock, I feel like no BUG deck should be losing to combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
So here's my short tournament report last February 3, 2013. 45 Players played on this event and luckily i got top 8.
Thanks for HoneyT for the Kessig Wolf Run Tech it's absolutely good. I just tweak the list of HoneyT. I just put in 2 Deathrite Shaman to replace Primeval Titan and Recurring Nightmare that i forgot to borrow from unemployer.
Here's the list that i played.
6th place Louie Funelas with Punishing Nicfit
main deck:
4 Veteran explorer
2 Deathrite shaman
1 Eternal witness
2 Huntmaster of the fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Broodmate dragon
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Kitchen finks
1 Thrun the last troll
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green sun's zenith
3 Punishing fire
3 Abrupt decay
3 Sensei's divining top
2 Maelstrom pulse
3 Pernicious deed
1 Garruk relentless
4 Grove of the burnwillows
4 Verdant catacombs
3 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Wooded foothills
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Phyrexian tower
1 Volrath's stronghold
1 Kessig wolf-run
Sideboard:
3 Carpet of flowers
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical extraction
2 Slaughter games
1 Dismember
1 Go for the throat
2 Pyroblast
1 Red elemental blast
======================
R1 vs UW Miracle - 2-0
Game 1 - A second turn Thrun seals up the game.
Game 2 - A second turn Broodmate Dragon wins the game. <-- how lucky i am cast this on second turn. =P
R2 vs Esper Stoneblade 1-1-1
Game 1 - Second turn Thrun wins the game.
Game 2 - Stalled by Batterskull and Academy Ruins loop.
Game 3 - same as game 2.
R3 vs RUG - 2-0
Game 1 - A win come from behind top deck Maelstrom Pulse, my opponents creature was 2 Tarmogoyf and don't own any creatures in play. After i topdeck Pulse got a topdeck GSZ to Thragtusk which seals the game.
Game 2 - 2nd turn Thrun + Kitchen finks wins the game.
R4 vs Manaless Dredge - 2-1 Sherko was the one who's playing dredge.
Game 1 - A win from Scavenging Ooze seals the game.
Game 2 - My Scavenging Ooze died to Sickening Shoal, and loss via Flayer of the Hatebound.
Game 3 - win via top deck Green Sun's Zenith to Scavenging Ooze and i already had plenty of Green Mana to pump up Scavenging Ooze.
R5 vs Punishing Maverick - 2-1
Game 1 - The game takes 43 mins and 7mins left to play game 2.
Game 2 - Win 2nd turn Huntmaster and 3rd Turn wins the game easily. Both huntmaster flips.
Game 3 - Win via Thrun and Kessig Wolf Run control the board by sweeping up using Pernicious Deed.
R6 vs Jund - Intentional Draw - (ID)
Top8 Playoffs.
R1 vs Sneak Show - 0-2
Game 1 - I know this player and he always play Enchantress deck. So i ramp up to Veteran Explorer + Phyrexian Tower until he fetch up island and mountain, what the fuck this guy was not playing enchantress and i think he plays Sneak and Show deck. I loss via Hardcast Sneak Attack with Emrakul + Griselbrand attacking.
Game 2 - And early disruption hits his hand, he earns a few mana to hard cast Sneak Attack and just waiting for a top deck Emrakul. 1st attack wiped out my board including Thrugtusk, so i got a 3/3 beast token left until it my opponent came to 1 life and i was down to 6 that time. If he got a top deck creature that's the end of the game. But then he got a top deck brainstorm, the turn one he drew from brainstorm was Emrakul oh! my dreams had fallen down to push to game 3. haha.
Blame it on me dude, forgot about the Titan. Congrats on the finish. Let's keep on Nic Fitting in the next months.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabards
How'd the 3 P.Fire worked for you? Do you think its time to play 4 Decays and 4 P.Fires and remove Pulses?
I played a very small tournament (16 people) went 2-2 with scapeshift. Won against TES and Belcher to my surprise but lost to Jund and BUG Still (boring match and if you do not win game one its over because there will be no game 2 :frown:) So not much to report.
@Arianrhod: maybe a stupid question but why is Meltdown so artrocious. For 3 mana you cast a wish and meltdown for zero to get rid of all those 0 mana costing artifacts. Pulverize is very good but will cost us 2 mana which is bad for scapewish and valakut plan.
I am sure I am missing something so please let me know?
I also wondered if we could play a one of wasteland (as a 61 card)to possibly find an answer to manlands and a card like academy ruins. It is probably not doing enough to warrant a spot in the deck.
Abrupt Decay can't remove other permanent with 4cc up :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by unemployer
This is the list I've been piloting for a while now with a very recent change. With the rise in popularity of the Jund decks in Legacy I think that the meta game is very ripe for Nic Fit to do well. As some of you may know when fair decks are good Nic Fit is at it's best because it can prey on the fair decks.
Here is the list:
Junk Nic Fit (GWB Explorer)
Creatures:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Wall of Blossoms
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witeness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Fierce Empath
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Deranged Hermit
1x Grave Titan
1x Sun Titan
Spells:
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Skeletal Scrying
4x Swordd to Plowshares
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Vindicate
Lands:
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x Phyrexian Tower
I am trying to work Deathrite Shaman in in some way. but the list is pretty tight as it is. The addition of Fierce Empath sets up some nice tutor chains with GSZ.
Also is Thragtusk a better 5 drop than Hermit Druid?
What about Spirit Monger against the black decks running Perish in the board?
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
Tusk is awesome. Id definitely be playing him. I found hermit to be underwhleming personally
The only time I'm scared of burn is when they keep 1-landers. If they flood even slightly, we're usually fine. What version are you looking at building? For any white version, you definitely want Leylines. Scapewish has a few more issues, but Hunts + Thrags are usually sufficient. If burn has that large of a presence, there are a few wish targets you can employ as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by sherko7
Agree@Punishing Scapewish. It's a Punishing deck that happens to have Scapeshift thrown in. I think that Scapeshifting for value (Taigas into Groves, for example) would be perfectly legit. But IMO stretching the manabase to try to include the Valakut kill too seems way too greedy to me. I dunno. Maybe it works better than it looks.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Disagree@Fluster vs MBT. Flusterstorm requires you to have a turn to play a land vs Belcher/Hermit, which there is absolutely no guarantee of. I wouldn't run Flusterstorm in Nic Fit. MBT is fine as a "speed counter" ala FoW, Negate is probably the go-to past that as a more "general purpose" counterspell.
For Meltdown, consider the following scenario:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire_dk
Your MUD opponent goes something like this: Ancient Tomb, Mox Diamond pitching whatever, Metalworker. You have a fine hand -- you Therapy him, name Wurmcoil, let's say, and you hit one. He uses Metalworker to poop out a Lodestone and a Steel Hellkite.
You spend two mana on an Explorer and have to pass it back. He doesn't want to set you off, so he swings with Hellkite. Let's assume that he doesn't do anything else of relevance -- his board is already good. You pay 1 to flashback Therapy, giving you 4 mana available.
He has Diamond, Metalworker, Hellkite, Lodestone in play, and probably a few lands...maybe like a Grim Monolith or something derpy too.
You have 5 lands, one of which is tapped.
Which is the best outcome:
Burning Wish + Pulverize (3 for Wish, 1 to "cast" Pulverize). You drop to 3 lands, he loses everything.
Burning Wish + Shattering Spree ( 3 for Wish, he gets a free turn to bash you). You keep your lands, but drop to 4. You don't have the red mana to kill everything, so he recovers.
Burning Wish + Meltdown (3 for Wish, he gets a free turn to bash you). You keep your lands, but drop to 4. You don't have the mana to cast Meltdown with X=6, so you die.
Even vs something like Affinity, Meltdown is garbage. You just need too much mana to pump into it to make it worthwhile. Frogmite/Myr Enforcer will do a fine job of beating you down. The 2-land cost of Pulverize is harsh, I'll grant you. But vs the decks where it matters, we can afford it. Keep in mind that Scapewish runs twenty-four to twenty-six mana-producing lands, because of no fetches. You'll draw more lands.
Damn people posting while I am :PQuote:
Originally Posted by ZimAshe
Deathrite would occupy one of the Scavenging Ooze slots if you really want him. He's been kind of underwhelming to everyone in here who's tried him, though.
2 Thruns o_O That's two too many!
Wickerbough is completely unnecessary. You have Qasali Pridemage, which is vastly superior. Wickerbough just clogs your 4-drop slot.
Thragtusk is better than Deranged Hermit, and Sigarda, Host of Herons is vastly better than either. Not running Sigarda in a white list is treason.
Grave Titan's pretty lame. He's decent, but there's better options.
Skeletal Scrying is a weird card. I want to say that it's bad, but the time might be coming around where it's good again. I definitely wouldn't run it over the 3rd Top, though, if that's the decision you came to.
*Thumbs up* @ Swords. You're sporting a Rock-based approach, and Swords is definitely the way to go now. You need the additional speed, and too many decks are running things with CMC > 3 because of Decay.
Liliana of the Veil is still trash in this deck. We're about resource acquisition, not resource deprivation.
2 Deeds is at least 1 too few. Deed is way too good in general, and especially right now.
Mana base seems fine.
Here are my suggested changes:
-1 Ooze
-1 Wickerbough
-2 Thrun
-1 Hermit
-1 Grave Titan
-2 Liliana of the Veil
+1 Deed
+1 Top
+1 Armada Wurm
+1 Sigarda
+1 Thragtusk
+1 Trostani
+1 Master of the Wild Hunt
+1 Eternal Witness
Now that I've needlessly added my own annotations to Kevin's response to someone other than me (because I'm nosy like that), I have to ask what is so good about Master of the Wild Hunt? I mean yeah, it's a great bomb that must be answered, but it does nothing immediately, which means it can be answered immediately with no lingering effects. Even if it lives long enough to pop out a wolf and either spot-remove a DRS, SFM, Bob, etc., it lacks the same impact that Huntmaster of the Fells flipped once or Squallmonger/Ifh-Biff Efreet with so much open mana has, and certainly lacks the staying power that Thrun has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod