i 5-0'd a league see above.
http://i.imgur.com/QwuiRbL.png
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i 5-0'd a league see above.
http://i.imgur.com/QwuiRbL.png
What if any of your card selection decisions were because of MODO availability? I'm guessing none since you've been on there for forever, but I wanted to check.
Otherwise seems fine. Not quite my flavor, but there's nothing wrong with that.
I've been testing vs Eldrazi at home (proxied up a list close to what I expect Delvis's list to be, since his team has put in the most work with the deck at this point). So far it's been a positive matchup overall. There are games we lose, certainly, but by and large the sacrifice to consistency over explosiveness compared to Metalworker MUD seems to allow us to actually play a game.
The more control I've gone (the more removal in the list), the worse the matchup seems to be. They're going to focus on getting a Chalice@1 pretty heavily, so I don't like Path to Exile at all. That being said, when they don't have Chalice, Path is great -- and it's good vs a lot of the rest of the room, so.
I am very much more concerned about the explosive growth of RG Lands as a result of their very favorable Eldrazi matchup. Lands is a serious problem for us and if it's gaining that much popularity, we need to worry about it...especially because of the window for fast combo's re-entry that it allows. Belcher is threatening to be very, very good in the upcoming metagame a couple weeks from now.
The windswepts over verdant(i havent noticed a difference)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Lotv missing.
That is it for cards i dont play because i dont have them.
@Ricardio: Nice job on the league. What were your MUs?
Well done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Fast combo is going to be an issue for us, but i am not sure how that is going to develop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
That said, Path to Exile takes in imprtant role in both Lands and Eldrazi MU. Looking at alternative creature removal anything gets more narrow (Dismemeber, Go for the Throat, Diabolic Edict, Terminate, Punishing Fire, just to name a few).
VS the Lands MU our best weapon seems to be Surgical Extraction. Since that cards is already within our "standard" gameplan we might aswell stay close to what we do already.
Plus Path to Exile is obviously an all star vs basically every creature based deck.
So in the end, the Eldrazi MU seems to resolve around hitting Chalice with Therapy/Decay/Deed, take out beef like TKS/Smasher with Path and possible sweep with Deed and finally locking the board with "bigger" or "better" creatures.
In testing i felt like we (junk) have a good game against Eldrazi, but it takes some manouvring to overcome them in time. Siege Rhino in this MU is not bad, but also it can fall short. And lists run 1-3 Dismember.
All in all, i do feel Junk to be good choice yet i am uncomfortable with it and feel that i/we must also look into another direction. In this regard i am more and more drawn to BUG colors to provide more value to the table (recurring Strix for example), while being able to shift to combo-hate game 2/3 (FoW/Surgical Extraction). This are yet just "gut feelings" but i am curious to further see how you or others think towards the direction NicFit might or should go to combat in this shifting meta.
Junk vs. BUG to me comes down to do you want to focus more on combat or on the combo MU.
Junk is better equiped to handle opposing creatures and combat, BUG is better equiped to handle the combo MU.
It's probably a meta call. BUG's combat capabilities can be improved with a Glissa, the Traitor that can also provide some added value when combined with Strix (which falls in the realm of cute but possible). For the lands MU you could fall back on Submerge to deal with Merit Lage. Try to recur w/ Meren & Eternal Witness for the win.
Congrats!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
A question to you (and anyone else playing a one-of vindicate/maelstrom pulse): wouldn't it be better to run council's judgement? gets around hexproof, indestructible (marit lage), doesn't target (if i am not misinformed), so takes out reality smashers. it doesn't kill problematic lands, but in the lands-MU, they just get returned with loam anyway. double white could be a bit awkward early game, but i think between verteran/deathrite we should manage to get it consistently? what do you guys think? :smile:
Sorcery speed is "never" a solution against Marit Lage. A Lands pilot will always try to create the token at the end of your turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetios
Yup. So always keep that W open to threaten with the PtE (regardless of if you actually have it or not).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Yeah, you're right. Could council's judgement still be of use in some matchups? Maybe cloudpost when they go for an ulamog? Or is the option to destroy a land more important?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Same thing. PtE answers Ulamog for 1 mana instead of 3 and at instant speed to boot, so why bother?Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetios
See Ricardio, league is much better :P
Congrats, what were your matchups? Did you fight miracles? What was your sideboard plan?
At the moment my most consistent losses are to my self, and then miracles (though my sample size isnt that big)
Hahaha lol. Nice one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Anyway, i also found the Miracles Mentor MU disturbingly difficult. Unlike PFire NicFit.
Congratz Ricardio, my man. From the 3 s games its clear that you really hate that miracles mu! When do you board in the full 3 copies?
Congrats Ricardio! Very nice streamlined list.
How was 0 tusk for ya?
They are on the previous pageQuote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Thanks, man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Vindicate was absolutely invaluable. Killing lands was impressive along with "flashback" by ewit. 10/10 one of.Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetios
Between pte and karakas, you don't need anything else. CJ was poor in my testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetios
Luckily, I got to dodge miracles bc that deck gives me a headache. Plan is to cut the superfluous stuff and add threats. games terminus and jace etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Thanks man. I brought it in a few times but its mostly for combo and miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Thank you. Its a labor of love.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
It felt absolutely fine. most of the time you want rhino or sigarda and tusk is just an afterthought. Tuskless was fine.
thanks for all the feedback and praise. Makes me excited to continue working on this deck.
Thinking about SGames vs the current Miracles it is not so much more threatening. They run less Entreat, some 1 some even 0. between 2-4 Mentor. 1-2 Clique and 1-3 Snapcaster Mage. Still SGames hits Jace, which is the most annoying card, but it feels like that SGames doesn't perfom like it used to. How do others feel about this card vs Miracles?Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
I bring it in to deal with jace and terminus. Those are their best cards against us. We have decay/deed for their counterbalance/mentor. running out rhinos is unbeatable when they have no jtms or term.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Hi guys, potential new Nic Fit player here. As someone moving from Modern into Legacy - I enjoy these decks that seem to play the oddest cards/toolbox decks. I played Pod, followed by now Abzan Company in modern as a reference.
Moving into Legacy the Junk Rhino version of Nic Fits seems to excite me in odd ways. I like the idea of casting Standard Staples like Thragtusk and Rhino or EDH cards like Meren, Titania or Sigarda in a format notorious for playing 'the best cards'.
Now, a few questions for you - Besides 4 Cabal/Vetern and some mixture of Deeds/Rhino/Fatties what is core to the deck. Is top a necessity to the deck - or would more draw/tutors be alright.
This is something i'm looking at right now - tell me what I'm doing wrong guys :)
Land (22)
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
Creature (16)
3x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer Flip
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
4x Veteran Explorer
Instant (6)
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Path to Exile
Sorcery (12)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Painful Truths
1x Vindicate
Enchantment (4)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
Sideboard (15)
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Pithing Needle
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Thoughtseize
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Vraska the Unseen
I'd say the common core of most Nic Fit decks is:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Green Sun's Zenith (can be cut in some pod / bug lists)
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2+ Abrupt decay
1+ Draw Spell (Truths, Read the Bones, Skeletal Scrying)
1 Eternal Witness
2+ Bayou
2-3 Forest
1-2 Swamp
1-2 Other Basic Land
4 Verdant Catacombs
1-3 Other Green Fetchland
IMO Top is pretty important since you really want some repeatable card selection. You have a lot of variance in your draws, particularly lategame - you play huge bombs like Meren, Sigarda and so on, but also 1/1 dorks like Veteran Explorer. Having card selection lets you leverage your potential excellent topdecks and you access to a large number of shuffle effects.
The only real replacement is Sylvan Library, which has a few advantages (dodging chalice@1 which is already awful, and being free / potential actual draws) but also harms the deck in other ways- mainly, it makes Deed a lot more awkward and is a lot easier to remove since you can Abrupt Decay it.
I just had the time to read this thread and holy sht I hope you were trolling. If you haven't read that, want a laugh and feel depressed/better about yourself, do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hmmm_Really?
If your metagame is slow, 3 Truths/2 Top is a fine package. In a faster meta, you probably want 3 Top/1 Sylvan. If your meta is a mix of both slow and fast, you can balance with 2 Truth/2 Top/1 Sylvan. Generally 4-5 dedicated draw/filter cards are where you want to be, coupled with the natural inherent card advantage of the deck and the cards we tend to run.
This, and the bold. I might add that Sensei's Divining Top is near impossible to get rid of AND it does not die to your own Pernicious Deed. Having a SDT out makes us so much more consistent. A lot of winning games involve an active top. Sensei's Divining Top is probably one of the most elegant card in Legacy. You can do all kinds of crazy shit with top. The other day i was holding a Top and had one in play. I knew i had removal in the top 3 as the only card and needed to find another removal spell, BUT i needed to look into the new top 3 before i untapped so i got all the mana. So i Spin top 3, in response cracked a fetch, in response Draw top, in response Spin top 3. The result was that drew the removal, shuffled my library and re-stacked my top 3 to find more good stuff before untapping. And with Courser of Krupix and/or Nissa, Vastwood Seer it even gets more crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
As for creatures, you typically want to have strictly green creatures in your GSZ build. Also, of those creatures, you want to bring something that gains life. This is due to make the transition to the lategame better. The lategame is where we shine. Getting Pernicious Deed blow-outs and bigger creatures then most decks have. But do not think lightly on the potential blow-out Cabal Therapy plus Veteran Explorer can have on T1/2.
Cabal therapy is key. Cabal therapy is the single best discard spell in all of magic and the most skill rewarding.
Also to echo them, you want atleast 2 SDT. they are absolutely necessary.
Thanks guys - looks like I'm cutting the Recurring Nightmare and a removal spell from that list to add at least 2 tops. I guess everyone eventually needs to learn how to top effectively and quickly. Another question - are there any videos or good matches to watch to help with the learning process of Nic Fit?
This thread is a bastion of knowledge that I'm going through.
If you need more background, thoughts, or insight into the deck's evolution, there is also this thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerubian
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ith-Control%29
This was the original thread. We branched off and re-made the thread with a full primer after almost 400 pages (7500 posts, containing remarkably little shitposting). There is a reason I'm as proud of this community as I am.
Obviously a lot of the material in this thread is dated, but there are definitely still some gems there, and if you have the time and the desire, it's probably worth the read-through.
I think Recurring Nightmare is a great card, but with access to Meren, it may not be necessary anymore.
With regards to Slaughter Games, the card is straight bonkers. As Junk, you're a little bit softer to Jace, so being able to remove him is super key (and getting rid of Terminus is also fine as well). I wouldn't cut it, especially right now.
Top is definitely worth it, and Sylvan is highly recommended as a 1-of, since you usually end up drawing so many cards due to Rhinotime. I also love Truths and Scrying, but Sylvan is a bigger beating against Miracles.
With Intent back in the deck, someone has suggested to run Karakas again, especially with Eldrazi running around. However, I'm not sure so, considering the manabase. Thoughts?
-Matt
OMG the stupidity in that thread. I had to stop reading after a couple of posts b/c I was starting to feel the need to fling my laptop through my TV. Repeatedly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
What does Karakas do vs Eldrazi, exactly? None of their things are legendary.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Slaughter Games is also good vs Lands, since it can take away their Life from the Loam. Surgical is better in this role, obviously, but Sgt Slaughter will get the job done as well. But yeah, mostly for Miracles and combo.
I think that Nightmare is more powerful than Meren overall, actually. If I only had room for one, I would still with old faithful.
Bastion? Like that guy from the neverending story?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerubian
removal is key seeing as this is just a bigger jund deck in legacy for lack of a better comparison.
Nic fit equation is Removal + Skillerhino^2 = Winning
A good starting point is my list, bob's or hood's(but mostly mine)
DATED!?? Who are you calling old? Soak up the information and learn from it, to put it simpliest.(fk you, its a word)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Its like someone spilled stupid all over and then had a pod of walrus try to clean it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Slaughter is great for naming problematic permanents like Ugin and JTMS or neutering combo. I have used it as a 4 cmc therapy before. Surgical hits dark depths/wasteland(save the karakas, save the world) and loam against lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I personally wont play nightmare because its more like dreamworld. Few times to I actively wish I had it and most often meren is much better.
We are a Control deck with built in value. not a combo deck. We aint cute, we're wiry and rugged.
I cant seem to find where my 5-0 is published. I am actively looking so there is some credit to my ramblings.
you are playing veteran explorer and siege rhino in legacy. Arnt you already trying to live the dream?
mtgdecks published from 26-02 and 29-02. Can't seem to find 27 and 28, if there is any.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Its not a dream if its real. I have pinched myself enough to verify this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
I finished it last night. around 7ish PST but I live in EST. Tangible credit that I am infact a Skillerhino Lord would be nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Ricardio, Crash of DirehornsQuote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
2wbg
Creature - Rhino Lord
All other Rhino creatures you control get +1/+1 and vigilance.
4/5
WOTC, EMPLOY THIS PERSON!Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Flavor Text:
I don't always Rhino. Actually, I do.
-Bobman
Nailed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Running Taiga for SG means you'd probably not want to also run Karakas. But if you do, i'd would run a single Knight of the Reliquary. KotR can fetch up the Taiga (or flip away the Taiga in MU's where you don't need the R).Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Sweet!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
I ran both and didn't have any problems. I felt karakas necessary because dealing with reanimator and the occasionaly turbo lage deck, you absolutely need it. Taiga is a pseudo-forest and karakas is my extra white source/sigarda Segway.
Maindeck feels super strong right now. SB can continue to be tweaked. Thalia felt bad, albeit I never drew her, when I brought her in and thought about drawing her, she was more of an inconvenience than a good card against my opponent. Since we have the mana, I want something more hard hitting. what do you guys think of Painful Quandary instead for storm and slow matchups? How rubble would call it :Is a spicy meatball. haha (no offense intended)
I've tried Painful Quandry in the past and it's never as good as you want it to be, sadly. Try Mindcensor. It still helps in storm (heavily, actually), and is also great in a lot of randomshit.dec matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
I will look into the bird, it just doesn't seem as appealing as I want it to. Any other spice? I just wanna throw stuff at the wall and hope it sticks for the sb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Trinisphere is insane, but might not be as great if you don't have multiple ways of turn 2ing it (ie, posts + vet/therapy). Nether Void has been a standby of mine for a longass time -- most storm decks these days are functionally incapable of beating it since it can't be Decayed (also the part where it locks them out of most spells).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Ralf swears by Dryad Militant -- I'm always hesitant because it exiles your Therapies, which halves your effect discard, but it's put up numbers for him.
Those are the main things I would recommend. I have a box full of random garbage like you wouldn't even believe that I've tried over the years. Most of it hasn't worked out, but some of it is hilarious. Have you ever seen Delver/(old) Miracles try to figure out how to beat Raking Canopy?