Printable View
No problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serguei
Yeah it's much easier because Dack Fayden is draw first then discard, so library order choices aren't as complicated. You can always put the same 2 cards back and keep the 3rd in hand (either FoN or StP).
I first thought it would be WD like you said, but then found the line where you win OTD by protecting Griffin with StP because Land Equilibrium still lets you play an untapped Plains as a 5th land if you sac a tapped land.
Regarding the banlist, do you think we could slim it down?
Particularly tolarian academy, ancestral recall, oath of druids or tinker do not seem to belong (it should be possible to design decks that can use them, but I don't think it would be pervasive).
It would make it easier to notice which cards are banned or not (e.g. I didn't notice that duress was not on).
I bolded the cards I thought were worth discussing:
Ancestral Recall
Balance
Black Lotus
Blackmail
Blazing Shoal
Burning Inquiry
Cabal Therapy
Chain of Smog
Chancellor of the Annex
Channel
Chaos Orb
Dark Deal
Dark Depths
Delirium Skeins
Earthcraft
Falling Star
Fastbond
Field of Ruin
Flash
Force of Will
Gerrard's Verdict
Ghost Quarter
Hymn to Tourach
Inquisition of Kozilek
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Laboratory Maniac
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Singularity
Lupine Prototype
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Mental Misstep
Mind Rake
Mind Swords
Mind Twist
Mishra’s Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Oath of Druids
Oko, Thief of Crowns
Shahrazad
Shelldock Isle
Show and Tell
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Thassa's Oracle
The Rack
Thoughtseize
Time Vault
Time Walk
Timetwister
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Wasteland
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Yawgmoth's Will
I support the unbanning of Fall, Trall and Ya'll
Worth discussing? I'd curious to know how to resolve it? It seems to be as broken as Chaos Orb.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Were you joking?
Some of these cards are there because they are "staples" on the ban list. We wouldn't play them anyway.
Field of Ruin was banned because it dominated season 1.
Falling Star is banned because we can't really play it. By definition, its effect isn't random, but we can't throw it, so we can't really use it. This banning makes sense to me.
Mana Drain I would have liked to play last round, but I couldn't...
So my questions for trimming down the ban list would be:
- Do we want to ban staples, like Ancestral recall?
And for individual cards:
- Can we make a combo deck with Earthcraft?
- Can we make a combo deck with Oath of Druids?
...
My point would be that why not remove from the banlist unplayable cards that we wouldn't play?Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I thought that the less cards on the list, the more readable it is, the easiest it is to check the banlist before submitting a deck.
We can make combos with Earthcraft and Oath, but they are likely to be bad enough to not really be threatening, while on the combo side, the format is maybe more defined by T1 LED/Rites/Iona, T1 barbed schoker, T1 magus of the moon, T1 From Under the Floorboards, etc...
A T2 combo deck needs to be resilient or disruptive.
I can also imagine aggro decks with sharazaad, but I think they would really lose to most decks.
On mana drain, yes, it could have make it more interesting that counterspell, without threatening to warp the format. So why not unbanning it?
Not joking, I just think the card is bad enough it doesn't need to appear on the banlist. I would resolve it by being unable to make a virtual object physically touch another one, or flip. So basically "no effect" card.Quote:
Originally Posted by jhhdk
Field of Ruin is effectively Wasteland in this format. (Lupine Prototype took the fall first.) Trust me, you do not want it around. Falling Star is a dexterity card, so it adds nothing even if legal.
Oath of Druids at best is probably a weaker version of t1 Iona. The potentially risky option is Tolarian Academy, but given that you need cheap artifacts to make it give mana, and the good mana rocks are still banned, it should be fine.
Shahrazad's issue is that the subgame actually follows standard Magic rules, so it's really a glorified upgraded Flame Rift in white.
OK for field or ruins, but is there any value of having any of the other cards on the banlist?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
There are a few thousands of cards that do not add anything to the game. A glorified flame rift shouldn't be big trouble.
Falling Star should probably stay with Field of Ruin, everything else should be fine.
I think as a rule any cards not legal in Vintage should be automatically banned. Even if they would not break 4CB, these cards are essentially not real Magic cards, amusing pieces of cardboard not part of the game as we know it:Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
- dexterity cards
- ante cards
- subgame cards
- "Un" sets
- Consipracies
- Schemes, Planes, Contraptions, and other weird gigantic non-cards
Cards like Falling Star and Shahrazad shouldn't need to occupy space on the banlist, impeding readability. They should be on a separate static "lol these are not real Magic: The Gathering cards" list with ante cards and the other cards banned in every sanctioned format. That's how the official B/R lists treat them.
The banlist for each 4CB season should be separate from that, to keep it concise.
As for unbans, I agree that Earthcraft, Tinker, Oath of Druids and Yawgmoth's Will should be unbanned because they are too clunky to combo compared to other combos that are legal. You could use LED or Bazaar to put Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or Blightsteel Colossus back in library, but then you only have one slot for mana to cast the enabler.
Saprazzan Cove, Tinker, Blightsteel Colossus, Key to the City is a turn 7 fatty. OK whatever.
Rushwood Grove, Oath of Druids, Bazaar of Baghdad, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is a turn 4 Oath, but you lack a way to give opponent a creature to turn on Oath, so you're stuck waiting for the opponent to cast a creature or just hardcasting Emrakul on turn 17. Hickory Woodlot enables turn 2 Oath but is illegal because you can't actually beat a goldfish.
Hickory Woodlot, Forest, Earthcraft, Squirrel Nest is infinite tapped tokens on turn 3 with no protection, not much crazier than the Midnight Guard combo that was never good enough even after 24 seasons of common bannathon.
There is no rule stating you have to beat a goldfish in a standard round, so turn 2 Oath is perfectly legal. (This is also relevant because of Karn Liberated.)
Well even if it's legal, it's incapable of ever scoring more than 2 points (DD) and could score less, so it seems safe. The version that doesn't draw is a turn 4 combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
There's a land that gives the opponent 1/1s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
I have played Oath in competitive play waaaay back in the day. Oath was absurd and should never have been printed.
But anyway.
If you guys feel like this banned list is too long, my brain goes "what the heck did you think about last season then?" But I'll trim it down a bit.
I'm keeping Field of Ruin because it dominated and we banned it because it was annoying. I'm also keeping Mana Drain at least for the Deviant seasons, just in case.
But I'll unban:
Ancestral Recall
Earthcraft
Falling Star
Oath of Druids
Shahrazad
Timetwister
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Yawgmoth's Will
And I'll use FTWs suggestion for banning cards that require physical dexterity. I'll update the banned list in a minute.
Can we ban Barbed shocker for next round?
It's kinda oppressive.
Submissions for the round have already opened, but we could ban it for the round after.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
Oath is absurd, yes. The question is whether you can abuse it in 4CB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
You need: 1G mana, a way to give opponent a creature, Oath, a way to put a card to your library, a fatty
Usually that ends up being 5 cards, unless you can find sufficient overlaps between roles.
Forbidden Orchard gives opponent a creature but doesn't produce 1G, so now you need a 5th card to produce the 2nd mana.
Chancellor of the Tangle, Forbidden Orchard, Oath of Druids, Brainstorm is a turn 1 Oath with turn 2 Chancellor, but this is worse than the slower Emrakul deck without Orchard and about as fragile as Goblin Lackey tricks.
In regular 4CB I think this is a non-issue. However in Deviant rounds there are enough options to get that 5th effect that maybe it is still too good. I could go either way on Oath. The problem with Oath-Emrakul is that Emrakul makes the combo resilient to disruption and removal, but it's still arguably slower than a lot of legal turn 1 stuff.
I have no issue with the size of the list. But it seems like some other players do and miss banned cards, so I take dte's point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Personally I think the size of the list is irrelevant because it's in alphabetical order, and the size of our decks is only 4 cards.
This is how I check my submissions.
List my 4 card deck in alphabetical order.
Look down the list for the letter corresponding to card #1.
Find it? Nope?
Keep scrolling down towards the letter for card #2.
Find it? Nope?
Keep scrolling down to the letter for card #3.
Find it? Nope?
Keep scrolling down to the letter for card #4.
Find it? Nope?
Ok my deck is legal.
You only have to verify 4 cards in an alphabetically-ordered list, which means only one scroll through the list and you can skim over most cards that start with different letters.
That would work whether the list is 10 cards or 500 cards without much difference in effort or accuracy.
But if other players are finding it difficult, especially in bannathons, then I think we should minimize the list to keep the game fun and accessible.
Yeah, that's why I went along with it anyway. Unbanning these cards shouldn't hurt the game, and if it does, I'll just add the troublesome card again.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
For me it's more the issue of we're discussing several things between rounds right now, which makes everything more difficult to follow for me.
Right now, I would like to focus on who has already redone their calcs for last round, as we're about to post decks for next round and I don't have standings for last round yet.
I also have a strong feeling some of us don't have the time to keep up with the thread right now and are missing chances to give their thoughts on new rules or bannings.
Though maybe it's just me not having brain space for all this because of COVID generally screwing with our lives.
I'm finally making time to do a proper analysis of my results, and it's during the week that I sent in an illegal deck. Oops. Should be easy to calculate.
maxx!: Mistcutter Hydra, Misthollow Griffin, Food Chain,Force of WillPlains
1. Asthereal (TO): Counterspell, Counterspell, Vraska the Unseen, Vraska, Relic Seeker
Counterspells get Food Chain and Griffin. If I make a small Hydra, little Vraska kills it before I can race. If I try to OHKO, the bigger Vraska races me easily. 0-6
2. jhhdk: Exploration, Exploration, Xantid Swarm, Scute Swarm
Yeah there's no way I can beat this. Hydra doesn't even trample, so he gets chumped forever. Should've played Maga. 0-6
3. Wrath of Pie: Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy, Transgress the Mind, Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
Transgress is fast enough to get my Food Chain. Griffin eats a Trophy, and Vitu-Ghazi beats my Hydra. 0-6
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Exploration, Steppe Lynx, Cloudstone Curio, Exploration
OTD the Lynx knocks me down to 2 before I go off. Chumping doesn't help GS. OTP I'm a turn faster. 6-0
5. dte: dark ritual, tel-jilad stylus, mesmeric fiend, reality acid
Fiend can take Hydra, then Acid gets the Griffin. 0-6
6. Reeplcheep: Exploration, Azusa, lost but seeking, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
OTP Azusa chumps my turn 4 Hydra, then Kozilek chumps next turn (lol), then I die to Valakut before I can attack again. OTD I just die to Valakut before I go off. 0-6
7. H: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, From Under the Floorboards
You will always have Zombies to chump and there's no way I can race. 0-6
8. FTW: Veil of Summer, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Archon of Valor's Reach
Archon names creature and I can't ever do anything. 0-6
9. alphastryk:Force of WillIsland I guess, Dack Fayden, Beacon of Destruction, Land Equilibrium
Dack can always make me discard 2 cards before my 4th turn. Food Chain by itself does nothing, so making a 3/3 is the best I can do. Beacon kills my threat and then slowly kills me. 0-6
10. maxx!: Mistcutter Hydra, Misthollow Griffin, Food Chain,Force of WillPlains
This is me :|
11. silkster: Shocker, Path to Exile, Chancellor of the Tangle, Leyline of the Void
Don't reveal Leyline and you can dump my whole hand before I can cast anything. 0-6
12. Tylert: Liliana of the veil, Leyline of sanctity, Assassin's trophy, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
OTP Trophy hits my second land, then Liliana comes down and makes me discard. I play a third land, but if I play Food Chain now then Liliana discards my last card. If I pass and discard Food Chain to Liliana, I'm left with 1 threat, and LotV edicts it. Can't win. 0-6
13. Serguei: Force of Negation, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Swords to Plowshares, Misthollow Griffin
FoN can hit Food Chain, but I don't think that actually matters. All Serguei has to do is always leave W open to plow my Hydra, and cast Griffin at some point to stare/trade with my Griffin. I can't break through that, and Ulamog gets me eventually. 0-6
6 points. Not good!
And to think I almost sent in a normal LED/Unburial deck. Calling an audible hours before the deadline has never worked for me, yet I keep doing it. Here's to next season, haha.
Hey, that's my M.O.! I almost send in straight T1 Barbed Shocker with Leyline of the Void. And I totally forgot which day is which and have no idea what to submit now.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxx!
I've read over some of the recent stuff, but not all of it. I like the shorter banlist for readability. It's always easy to check your deck, but that's not the only way I use the banlist. I also like to hold the entire banlist in my mind and try to think of broken stuff in general. I know it's minor, but it's such low cost. The pauper/peasant banlist was huge and unwieldy, but it was large for a specific reason and it was worth it. Unbanning Tinker etc. is all upside to me.
I'm a little sad that no one wanted to play double Ideas Unbound with LED and Emrakul last round.
I really did think the Berserker round was one of the better ones and I think it would made a great bannathon season, either as is or just a bannathon season of "only creatures and lands".
Looks like we have the results in now, so here's standings for round 4:
1. Wrath of Pie: 60 - 5
2. H: 57 - 4,8
3. jhhdk: 54 - 4,5
3. Reeplcheep: 54 - 4,5
5. dte: 51 - 4,35
6. FTW: 39 - 3,3
7. silkster: 34 - 2,8
7. Serguei: 34 - 2,8
9. Tylert: 30 - 2,5
10. Asthereal (TO): 28 - 2,3
11. alphastryk: 9 - 0,8
11. GoblinSmashmaster: 9 - 0,8
13. maxx!: 6 - 0,5
Which would lead to these standings for the season so far:
1. dte: 18,5
2. FTW: 15,9
3. Serguei: 14,6
4. Tylert: 13,9
5. Reeplcheep: 12,2
6. Wrath of Pie: 10,8
7. silkster: 10
8. maxx!: 9,7
9. Asthereal (TO): 9,4
10. H: 9,2
11. jhhdk: 8,7
12. GoblinSmashmaster: 7,7
13. alphastryk: 6,6
So dte proudly leads the pack, with FTW in pursuit. Wrath makes a nice jump in the ranks with an excellent result for round 4.
EDIT: Adjusted for the Serguei - alphastryk match.
The deadline for round 5 has passed, and I'm missing alphastryk and FTW. Last round was rather messy so I'll give you some extra time to send in decks.
There is still the issue wth my match against alphastryke. He did not confirmed the analysis done by FTW where it shows without any FoN he looses both OTD and OTP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I should have 34 pts and 2.8 instead.
Max
Ah thanks, I overlooked that one. Adjusting scores now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serguei
I submitted a few hours ago. I don't know if alphastryk is following this thread too closely. He hasn't updated his results from the last round or commented on the rules discussion. There's so much stuff going on that Round 5 would be easy to miss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I got yours indeed. I guess alphastryk is rather busy, but I'll give him a bit more time.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Any news ?
Nope, not yet. I'll post decks during my break.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serguei
If he sends a deck still, I'll include it. If not, he'll be skipping a round.
Unfortunately no entry from alphastryk, but we're a day late now, so I'm going to have to post decks. Here we go.
DECKS FOR ROUND 5 OF SEASON 9: Deviant Legacy - Part 2
This round we play The Coin: When you are on the draw, you begin the game with a Lotus Petal artifact token in play. No additional bannings.
The entries:
1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Chromomaton, Durkwood Baloth, Daze
2. jhhdk: Gatekeeper of Malakir, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth,Volrath's Stronghold
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Island, Force Spike, Force Spike, Brinebarrow Intruder
4. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Porcelain Legionnaire, Trinisphere, Rishadan Port
5. Wrath of Pie: Mishra's Factory, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
6. H: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Fume Spitter, Shamble Back
7. maxx!: Cavern of Souls, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Meddling Mage, Spell Pierce
8. Serguei: Scalding Tongs, City of Traitors, Simian Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge
9. Tylert: Lion's eye diamond, Unburial Rites, Iona, shield of emeria, Karakas
10. dte: City of traitors, Hangarback Walker, Arcbound Ravager, Steel Overseer
11. FTW: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Path to Exile, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
12. silkster: Plains, Cenn's Tactician, Pact of Negation, Angel's Grace
Please post your scores and cross-check with the opponents.
You can also enter your scores in the Google Spreadsheet for the seasonwhich you can find here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
10. dte: City of traitors, Hangarback Walker, Arcbound Ravager, Steel Overseer
I expected pierce to be the round defining thing, as it was all I could think of. And LED/Iona, as it is always the tiers 1 T1 deck. Only one of each :/
1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Chromomaton, Durkwood Baloth, Daze
6-0. OTD, the coin blanks daze. When I am OTP, you get to daze your choice of card between Hangarback and ravager. It is better for you to daze hangarback, so I lead with steel overseer, followed by ravager.
6
2. jhhdk: Gatekeeper of Malakir, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth,Volrath's Stronghold
0-6. Nice deck! First it looked like complicated maths here, but on second thoughts you just crush me.
6
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Island, Force Spike, Force Spike, Brinebarrow Intruder
3-3. A classic result vs force spike decks, but inversed? OTD I resolve two creatures and they are better than yours. OTP your intruder beats my ravager I guess?
9
4. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Porcelain Legionnaire, Trinisphere, Rishadan Port
6-0. OTP and OTD, overseer or walker T1 takes the game.
15
5. Wrath of Pie: Mishra's Factory, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
3-3. At the earliest you trophy T3. When I am OTP, T1 Overseer, T2 walker (2/2s), T3 ravager (2/2, 3/3, 4/4), you can trophy overseer (ravager 3/3, walker 4/4) but will definitely lose the race as walker grows, and both ravager and walker are good at dying. When you are OTP I am pretty sure you win by taking my land before I can cast my third creature, but cannot do the maths now.
18
6. H: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Fume Spitter, Shamble Back
0-6. Very nice use of the coin! I would have definitely played that (or at least cry/spitter) if I ever thought of it! I lose both.
18
7. maxx!: Cavern of Souls, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Meddling Mage, Spell Pierce
6-0. OTP and OTD, overseer or walker T1 takes the game.
24
8. Serguei: Scalding Tongs, City of Traitors, Simian Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge
0-6, I lose to bridge. With a very big army on the other side.
24
9. Tylert: Lion's eye diamond, Rites of unburial, Iona, shield of emeria, Karakas
6-0. The MU I prepared for! When you are OTP, you play Iona T1. I do T1 overseer. T2 (d13), walker, activate seer (2/2). T3 attack (d7), ravager, grow walker with the coin and overseer (4/4, seer 3/3, ravager 2/2). T4 attack, sack walker for 4 tokens, block with one token and sac it to ravager (4/4). My T4, I attack with 2 token 2/2 and a ravager 5/5, leaving a token in defense ==> Win. When I am OTP it is even easier.
30
11. FTW: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Path to Exile, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
6-0. I can see FTW prepared for the same MU. here it is 2 "growers" vs 1 PtE = Win, thalia can block bounce only once every 2 turns.
36
12. silkster: Plains, Cenn's Tactician, Pact of Negation, Angel's Grace
6-0. Interesting use of the coin too! My growers are better than yours, as they either leave an army behind, or grow an other dude. and it comes down to 3 ressources vs 2 too.
42
1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Chromomaton, Durkwood Baloth, Daze WW, turn before Baloth is about to join the party i chose not to pay upkeep, if you daze when i recast, balot gets two swings before i recast. Chronomaton is largely irrelevant, because it can't grow with tabernacle, so i have plenty of time to deal with it.
2. jhhdk: Gatekeeper of Malakir, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth,Volrath's Stronghold <--- me
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Island, Force Spike, Force Spike, Brinebarrow Intruder WW, it seems, Ideal MU I think.
4. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Porcelain Legionnaire, Trinisphere, Rishadan Port DD, i see it now. took a while.
5. Wrath of Pie: Mishra's Factory, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy LL, Trophy on gatekeeper and ride factory to victory.
6. H: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Fume Spitter, Shamble Back LL, can't get recursion going before Shamble exiles my Gatekeeper.
7. maxx!: Cavern of Souls, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Meddling Mage, Spell Pierce LW? OTD I resolve Gatekeeper first and race, OTP you meddle first.
8. Serguei: Scalding Tongs, City of Traitors, Simian Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge LL
9. Tylert: Lion's eye diamond, Rites of unburial, Iona, shield of emeria, Karakas LL, Assuming "Rites of unburial" is Unburial Rites
10. dte: City of traitors, Hangarback Walker, Arcbound Ravager, Steel Overseer WW, tabernacle keeps things fairly simple.
11. FTW: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Path to Exile, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben LL
12. silkster: Plains, Cenn's Tactician, Pact of Negation, Angel's Grace WW, tactician wont live long enough to become dangerous, even with Pact.
Actually if you kick gatekeeper, it counts as BBB for trini. So you actually do not care about trinisphereQuote:
Originally Posted by jhhdk
You should also win vs Asthereal, Silkster and me.
Asthereal's scores for The Coin:
1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Chromomaton, Durkwood Baloth, Daze
That's me, expecting Force Spike and playing around it with Daze. Might be a bad idea though. We'll see.
2. jhhdk: Gatekeeper of Malakir, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth,Volrath's Stronghold
EDIT: Recurring Gatekeeper only works if it actually dies. But I forgot Taberncale also works for you. You just don't pay for GK. It dies. You recur it. You cast it. Every other turn. Which is too fast for me. 0-6
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Island, Force Spike, Force Spike, Brinebarrow Intruder
Baloth hoses this deck really well. Only OTD you can double-Spike, after which Chrono gets free reign anyway. 6-0
4. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Porcelain Legionnaire, Trinisphere, Rishadan Port
So Trini hoses Baloth quite well, but Chrono beats your deck by itself, as long as I get to cast it. Which I can, both OTP and OTD, as your deck can't cast Trini before I get a turn. 6-0
5. Wrath of Pie: Mishra's Factory, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
This deck just beats my deck. 0-6
6. H: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Fume Spitter, Shamble Back
Suspend Baloth. Discard Daze first, if needed I'll discard Chrono second. If not, Baloth will win the race, if my math is right. 6-0
7. maxx!: Cavern of Souls, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Meddling Mage, Spell Pierce
Mage can stop either Chrono or Baloth, but the other will win it. 6-0
8. Serguei: Scalding Tongs, City of Traitors, Simian Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge
OTD I get to Daze the Tings which leads to a draw. OTP you have the Coin mana to protect against Daze and your deck hoses mine perfectly. 1-4
9. Tylert: Lion's eye diamond, Rites of unburial, Iona, shield of emeria, Karakas
I gave up this match. OTP I have Daze up, but you have Coin mana up to counter this idea. I did npt think this deck through very well. 0-6
10. dte: City of traitors, Hangarback Walker, Arcbound Ravager, Steel Overseer
You can force through Overseer both times. Even if I counter one of the others, Overseer + second artifact dude still wins it. 0-6
11. FTW: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Path to Exile, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
OTD I get to Daze Thalia. Path kills one of my guys buth the other wins it. OTP Daze is a blank. Chrono gets Pathed, Baloth stays back for defence as I'll otherwise lose the race. I think this should be 4-1
12. silkster: Plains, Cenn's Tactician, Pact of Negation, Angel's Grace
If both Cenn and Chrono resolve, we just tick up and draw. OTP I open with Chrono. You can Pact, but I'll Daze it. If you pay with the Coin mana, you won't have mana for Grace and lose. So it resolves. You play Cenn afterwards, and use Pact to counter Baloth so we draw. We both lose a tick up turn (sus Baloth, cast Grace). So we draw here. OTD if you open with Cenn, you won't have mana to pay for Daze anyway, so Chrono always resolves. But if you don't open with Cenn, I can just wait until you do cast it and then cast Chrono afterwards. We still draw. I don't see a win for myself yet though, so for now I'll chalk up 2-2.
Total: 31 points
EDIT: Reviewed match against jhhdk. Tabernacle means j get's to let his Gatekeeper die. Then recur. Then kill my threat again.
I missed the fact that he can use Tablernacle to let his Gatekeeper die.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Nacle also slows me down as I can't tick up Chrono.
I haven't actually done math, but I can't imagine me racing, even if I get to Daze something. Note that Daze takes away upkeep mana...
Cool deck!
I have once again submitted an illegal deck. I hope everyone believes me when I say that I wanted to play "Unburial Rites".
1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Chromomaton, Durkwood Baloth, Daze
2. jhhdk: Gatekeeper of Malakir, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth,Volrath's Stronghold
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Island, Force Spike, Force Spike, Brinebarrow Intruder
4. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Porcelain Legionnaire, Trinisphere, Rishadan Port
5. Wrath of Pie: Mishra's Factory, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
6. H: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Fume Spitter, Shamble Back
7. maxx!: Cavern of Souls, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Meddling Mage, Spell Pierce
8. Serguei: Scalding Tongs, City of Traitors, Simian Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge
9. Tylert: Lion's eye diamond, Rites of unburial, Iona, shield of emeria, Karakas
10. dte: City of traitors, Hangarback Walker, Arcbound Ravager, Steel Overseer
11. FTW: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Path to Exile, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
12. silkster: Plains, Cenn's Tactician, Pact of Negation, Angel's Grace
1. Asthereal: OTP I Name green and win, OTD, I have a petal to pay for daze. 6-0 --> 6
2. jhhdk: OTP I name Black and pay for tabernacle with karakas. OTD it's the same. 6-0 --> 12
3. GoblinSmashmaster: OTP, you counter something. OTD I have a petal. 3-3 --> 15
4. Reeplcheep: OTP, I name white and win. OTD, I name white and win as you can't do a T1 trinisphere. 6-0 --> 21
5. Wrath of Pie: Iona races elixir + Mishra. I name black each time 6-0 --> 27
6. H: I name black each time and win. 6-0 --> 33
7. maxx!: You can counter my rites OTP and OTD. 0-6 --> 33
8. Serguei: Bridge is colorless. 0-6 --> 33
9. Me.
10. Dte. I'll trust you for now --> 33
11. FTW: Karakas + Mishra = I loose. 0-6 --> 33
12. Silkster: OTP, you can pact and angel's grace. OTD, You can pact and angel's grace. 0-6 --> 33
Total 33.
SPell pierce over force spike is really a good idea.
I thought about playing force spike as it appears to be good OTD contrarily to a normal situation where you don't have the lotus, but it's so terrible OTP... because of the lotus on the opponent's side. Spell pierce on the contrary asks for more for the same price. And most T1 combos use a non creature spell.
The entries:
4. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Porcelain Legionnaire, Trinisphere, Rishadan Port
Wasn’t around last time we did legacy so didn’t remember the level 0 decks.
1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Chromomaton, Durkwood Baloth, Daze
LL dies to chrono. 0-6
2. jhhdk: Gatekeeper of Malakir, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth,Volrath's Stronghold
Per below, kicker works through 3ball. I otp I can force you with 3ball to use your petal to cast gatekeeper the first time, which means you don’t have the mana to cast it the second time through port. OTD you don’ have a petal for me to worry about so the same result happens.
DD 2-2
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Island, Force Spike, Force Spike, Brinebarrow Intruder
If I lead on 3 ball you can’t double spike the legionnaire. WW 6-0
5. Wrath of Pie: Mishra's Factory, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy. Trophy 3 ball then legionnaire then port. LL 0-6
6. H: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Fume Spitter, Shamble Back
LL 0-6.
7. maxx!: Cavern of Souls, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Meddling Mage, Spell Pierce
No answer to t1 legionnaire or meddling mage. LW !!! 3-3
Edit: WW 0-6
8. Serguei: Scalding Tongs, City of Traitors, Simian Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge
OTP if you lead on bridge or tongs I can port you off the other. OTD if you lead tongs I have to commit my petal to stop bridge which means I can never play my threat. DL 1-4
9. Tylert: Lion's eye diamond, Rites of unburial, Iona, shield of emeria, Karakas
LL 0-6 thought we would see more big mana, maybe should have played ssg instead of port.
10. dte: City of traitors, Hangarback Walker, Arcbound Ravager, Steel Overseer
Your threats beat mine. LL 0-6
11. FTW: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Path to Exile, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
OTD you can’t beat t2 3 ball. OTP t1 Thalia is back breaking. LW !!! 3-3. The first match that petal makes a giant difference. Has LW ever happened before?
12. silkster: Plains, Cenn's Tactician, Pact of Negation, Angel's Grace
Build your own fow, nice. Unlike bolster its not activate as a sorcery so LL 0-6.
15 points
Round of Embrace the Coin.
Me: silkster: Plains, Cenn's Tactician, Pact of Negation, Angel's Grace
1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Chromomaton, Durkwood Baloth, Daze
On my play, I can land tactician, then you can jam Chronomaton by Dazing the Pact. Neither creature can outgrow the other, but I have the half turn tempo so a double attack doesn't force a trade.
On your play, I let you make turn 1 Chronomaton and play my Tactician, holding the Coin to pay for Daze. Neither of our creatures can outgrow the other and attack. You can play Baloth and I can let it go (giving me the half turn tempo) or I can counter it and it costs us both 1 turn of pumping. DD, 2 points
2. jhhdk: Gatekeeper of Malakir, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth,Volrath's Stronghold
Build your own Murderous Rider. Well, it murders me.
LL, 0 points
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Island, Force Spike, Force Spike, Brinebarrow Intruder
On my play, I Pact a Force Spike to play Tactician. On your play, I can pay for it with Coin.
WW, 6 points
4. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Porcelain Legionnaire, Trinisphere, Rishadan Port
On my play, I lead on Tactician and you have to play the Port first so that you can keep your City around. I make a 2/2, you play Trinisphere. I make a 3/3, you make Legionnaire. I pass, you can't attack, I make a 4/4 on your end step, and I get to attack first too.
On your play, you lead on Port, I make 1/1. You play Trinisphere, I make 2/2. You play Legionnaire, I make 3/3. Attacking loses the race, so you stay back and tap my land on upkeep, but it doesn't get better. You need to sequence Port > City > Trinisphere > Legionnaire or I can either counter the legionnaire or grow on defence and swing for 20.
WW, 6 points
5. Wrath of Pie: Mishra's Factory, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
Basically, 3 cards is better than 2. 0 points
6. H: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Fume Spitter, Shamble Back
Basically, 3 cards is better than 2. 0 points
7. maxx!: Cavern of Souls, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Meddling Mage, Spell Pierce
Our interactive cards do nothing, but my creature is bigger. 6 points
8. Serguei: Scalding Tongs, City of Traitors, Simian Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge
Degeneracy that I can beat. 6 points
9. Tylert: Lion's eye diamond, Rites of unburial, Iona, shield of emeria, Karakas
Degeneracy that I can beat. 6 points
10. dte: City of traitors, Hangarback Walker, Arcbound Ravager, Steel Overseer
Too many threats. 0 points
11. FTW: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Path to Exile, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Thalia is must-counter, then threat plus removal beats me. 0 points
32 points from 10W, 10L, 2D. Almost perfectly in the middle.
I was looking for the post that laid out what rounds were to come, then realized I could probably find it in the very first post on page 1. There I saw Asthereal's encouraging words about not wanting to miss weeks because of the fun and not the points. So I decided to embrace the round mechanic as best I could. Otherwise, I was planning to ignore it and play some boring control deck, which would have done significantly better, but whatever.
You got style points at least!Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
5. Wrath of Pie: Mishra's Factory, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
1. Asthereal (TO): Tropical Island, Chromomaton, Durkwood Baloth, Daze WW
2. jhhdk: Gatekeeper of Malakir, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth,Volrath's Stronghold WW - Even simpler than you have it, I Trophy Urborg then ride to victory.
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Island, Force Spike, Force Spike, Brinebarrow Intruder WW
4. Reeplcheep: City of Traitors, Porcelain Legionnaire, Trinisphere, Rishadan Port WW
6. H: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Fume Spitter, Shamble Back DW - Probably the rarest result possible in Card Blind.
7. maxx!: Cavern of Souls, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Meddling Mage, Spell Pierce DD
8. Serguei: Scalding Tongs, City of Traitors, Simian Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge WW
9. Tylert: Lion's eye diamond, Rites of unburial, Iona, shield of emeria, Karakas LL - I'm guessing that you went with the literal French translation this time?
10. dte: City of traitors, Hangarback Walker, Arcbound Ravager, Steel Overseer WL - Using the Coin as Ravager food is a good plan. (Also, you make Trophy rather bad.)
11. FTW: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Path to Exile, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben WW - I expected you to have Tylert's entry or a variant of it.
12. silkster: Plains, Cenn's Tactician, Pact of Negation, Angel's Grace WW
16w3d = 51 points
I discounted the coin as basically irrelevant, so I just went standard 4CB. If Trophy/Elixir worked with all the lands, I figured why not do it with just two of the lands? (Elixir should probably be banned next round though, because it makes the round rule irrelevant.)
11. FTW: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Path to Exile, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
This was my attempt at a deck that beat all the explosive combos taking advantage of the coin to cast PtE, which seemed more fun than just ignoring the round rule and playing a turn 1 deck.
1. Asthereal (TO): OTP you Daze Thalia, Path takes Chrono, and Baloth races Factory. OTD the coin plays around Daze. Path takes Chrono. Thalia + Factory get a big headstart on Baloth, forcing you to hold it on defense to draw. LD 1-4
2. jhhdk: If you Gatekeeper Thalia, PtE exiles it and Factory beats through Tabernacle. WW 6-0
3. GoblinSmashmaster: You can't beat Mishra's Factory. WW 6-0
4. Reeplcheep: OTP I play Factory. If you don't play T1 3sphere using the coin, Thalia locks you out of Sphere, then Path answers Legionnaire and Thalia wins. To stop that you play City and T1 3sphere. I play Karakas and attack with Factory (R=18). You play Port (losing City) and Legionnaire, paying 2 life (R=16). Now you need 7 attacks to win and I need 8 attacks, so you just barely race Factory.
OTD you can play T1 Legionnaire or play Port first to keep your lands. I play T1 Thalia using the coin, locking you off 3sphere. You can Port down Factory forever, but I still Path Legionnaire and win with Thalia. LW 3-3
5. Wrath of Pie: I knew I was scooping to Elixir-Trophy but hoped at most 1 player was on it because with the slow lands it loses hard to T1 decks. Turns out there was only 1 T1 deck! LL 0-6
6. H: OTP I play Karakas. You use the coin to play Fume Spitter and Cry me, but I respond with PtE on Spitter stopping the Haunt, then discard Thalia. Factory stares down the 2/2 zombie token.
OTD if you lead with Spitter, I play Karakas and Path it, then you play Cry and I discard Factory, then play Thalia using the coin and win. If you lead with Cry instead I discard Path, then I can play Thalia with coin+Factory and have Karakas to bounce it if you try to kill it with Spitter. Thalia + Factory wins.
WD 4-1
7. maxx!: If you name Path, Thalia + Factory beats through Mage. If you use the coin for T1 Mage naming Thalia, Path kills it before you have mana for Pierce. If you save the coin for Pierce, Thalia comes down before Mage and stops Pierce from protecting Mage anyway. WW 6-0
8. Serguei: OTP I play T1 Factory, you play T1 Bridge. I play Thalia but you can use the coin to resolve Tongs and win.
OTD you can T1 Bridge, I play T1 Thalia, and you lack the mana to resolve Tongs so we draw.
LD 1-4
9. Tylert: I came ready for this. Karakas stops Iona, your Karakas stops my Thalia, but Factory gets there. WW 6-0
10. dte: This was the other deck I considered (with Chalice over Ravager), but thought it would be too soft to turn 1 Magus or turn 1 Shocker. Unfortunately it's a lot better vs control decks like mine. I can't answer 3 threats that outgrow mine. LL 0-6
12. silkster: Thalia makes it hard for you to protect Cenn from PtE, then Factory wins. WW 6-0
39 points (12 wins, 3 draws, 7 loss)
I thought Elixir would be a lot weaker this round. The fact that you have to use up 2 slots on lands and play ETB tapped lands reduces how much interaction the deck has. Iona, Floorboards, Barbed Shocker, Infect, and some other fast decks should all beat this because you only get Trophy on turn 3. We just had a surprisingly slow meta with little combo, and this deck shines in grindy metas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
It seems fine to leave unbanned as long as so many T1 combo decks and fast prison decks exist.
Yeah, I prepared for similar MUs and accepted losses to grindy stuff like 3x Overseer and Elixir+Trophy.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
The deck I was worried about even more than Iona was
City of Traitors, Simian Spirit Guide, Simian Spirit Guide, Barbed Shocker
With double SSG it plays around Spell Pierce, FoN, 3sphere, Chalice and can beat stuff like Daze & Sphere of Resistance with the coin. Path+coin was my tech to 6-0 that. Path also beats the T1 Magus version.
On style, I love H's deck: peasant + perfect use of the coin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
I also find fun that WoP gets top scores with almost the same deck on two very different rounds.
Shouldn't you draw that one? discarding two cards before your T2, so you can never keep elixir + farm, so it's factory vs token, draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
That would force me to make a deck for next round :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
Be it next round, and the life round as well, I think elixir is tiers 0.
Otherwise for normal rounds, I think elixir, LED and Schoker are equally oppressive. Another way to see it is to say that they define a metagame, and are then fine. I am fine either way (keeping or banning).
Actually with the coin robots 6-0 magus and Iona, and 3-3 schoker, so it sounded fine. I though no one would want to play shocker as you probably lose OTD, plus OTP against any deck playing either force spike or removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
It would have been actually great.
I did not think at all about bridge or elixir.