All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by MorphBerlin

Which 1-drop will replace DRS then? I dont see a delver decks with less than 8 1drops beeing good.

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Don't know, you may well be right that there isn't a way to do it. Possibly Lavamancer, if that doesn't create too much tension on the 'yard with the Delve creatures. Possibly Swiftspear, but again, maybe not.

However, my skepticism still abounds. We'll see what people come up with though.

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Originally Posted by H

I don't think I am buying this. Goyf is worse now, because of Push. Hootie isn't as good as Angler, generally speaking. You get the Goose, but I am not sure that is enough overall. Combo is real and I don't think it really effectively be fought with what RUG has to bear, even with many decks being hit by the Probe ban. Grixis will likely still be the best Delver deck, just minus Deathrite and Probe, and plus Stifle or something else.

That doesn't mean RUG isn't better now, because it obviously is, but I don't see it "dethroning" Grixis. Happy to be wrong, but I am skeptical right now.

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It may end up being the best combination of colors. But this ban pretty well kneecaps it. The deck is going to have to actually work to get its mana base correct. Three colors and Wasteland is not easy to pull off. You will lose some games to Lands/DnT right there no matter what you do. Then there is the reduced acceleration. And frankly, curving out is going to be harder to manage. No more accidental graveyard hate in an environment that will be rife with graveyard stuff. It is not in the least clear to me that Grixis will be the best Delver deck. It is going to be an entirely different thing.

This is the best news I've heard in quite a while! I don't think I could tolerate many more turn 1 probes.

I would have much rather seen Leovold and True-Name banned then Deathrite.

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Originally Posted by MorphBerlin

I dont even know how lands looses a match agaisnt a fair deck now unless it really beats itself.

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Lands in the short term is going to have to find its place. I think fair is going to include a lot of White, DnT, Blade and White Eldrazi and that colour is not great for us. White interaction is the worst interaction we have to worry about.

This may be counter to what people expect, but I have been saying it in the Lands Discord for a while. DRS was a boon for us. Sounds odd, but what DRS did was hold together mana bases that ran on margins so thin that it makes 1990's Apple look like a stable company. Really. We ate those decks like cupcakes, now they are going to look to play more stable mana bases.

Those saying RUG is bad against combo, isn't it supposed to crush most combo decks? Delver, Stifle, Pierce Force Daze is pretty good

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Originally Posted by twndomn

What are you writing about? Are we discussing the same format? Banning DRS means that RUG Delver, the one that runs Goyf, along with Stifle and Wasteland, they'll show up in higher numbers. You want Black and Green, play Turbo depths, that deck doesn't need DRS.

There's nothing herpy-derpy about Probe. You probe your opponent, you combo off via Storm, Dredge, or whatever unfair strategy of your choice. People don't durdle because of Probe, people play pro-active aggresive combo strategies by using Probe to clear the way at practically zero cost.

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Seriously? Freely seeing your opponents hand, not even costing you a card, so you can play perfectly? Sure thing, skill testing galore. I didn't write durdly.

You also aren't in the slow depths circle, which is fine, because that version was playing more fair to combat bad matchups. With grixis delver taking a hit, more wastelands, more stifles, depths will all of a sudden have a harder time. Miracles and DeathandTaxes both get better in the format, the 2 worst matchups for depths.

So i ask you, what are you writing about?

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Those saying RUG is bad against combo, isn't it supposed to crush most combo decks? Delver, Stifle, Pierce Force Daze is pretty good

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Speaking from the Storm experience, I'd say it's a very skill-indexed matchup. Bad RUG players are bad against combo, bad combo players are bad against RUG. I'd think BUG Delver would generally be the scarier matchup for combo, since you have discard and counters and waste and all that. It's basically all the interactive directions coming at you at once, and there can be a 3/2 flying in on turn 2. Though, idk how good BUG would be w/o DRS

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Those saying RUG is bad against combo, isn't it supposed to crush most combo decks? Delver, Stifle, Pierce Force Daze is pretty good

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Play the matchup from both sides and come to your conclusion then.

I find it a little hard to believe you actually hold that position though, as I believe you have Storm decks before. That is the kind of facile view of the matchup generally presented by SCG commentators. If your combo deck can't beat soft permission and a reasonably fast clock, you probably aren't playing a Legacy deck.

Regardless of what you think about it and how you feel, the card(s) are gone.

And I wouldn't be surprised to see a ton of Reanimator at GP: Richmond. I'm just glad the format is better off without those two hoodlums.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

Speaking from the Storm experience, I'd say it's a very skill-indexed matchup. Bad RUG players are bad against combo, bad combo players are bad against RUG. I'd think BUG Delver would generally be the scarier matchup for combo, since you have discard and counters and waste and all that. It's basically all the interactive directions coming at you at once, and there can be a 3/2 flying in on turn 2. Though, idk how good BUG would be w/o DRS

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That was true with Probe was in the format. Now I think it will be a little harder for storm. And I played both sides within the past year. Probe was really dumb.

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Originally Posted by kinda

There is a legacy pro tour???

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The next PT is a teamevent where one team member plays Standard, another Modern, and another Legacy.

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Banning 10 cards at a time though is a Modern move.

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On the other hand you could savely unban almost (if not just) as many cards who ended on the B&R list, only because the fetch+cantrip xerox shell fueled them in the first place

When Wotc get it ~just~ right

https://cdn3.whatculture.com/images/2014/04/1pie.png

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Originally Posted by H

Play the matchup from both sides and come to your conclusion then.

I find it a little hard to believe you actually hold that position though, as I believe you have Storm decks before. That is the kind of facile view of the matchup generally presented by SCG commentators. If your combo deck can't beat soft permission and a reasonably fast clock, you probably aren't playing a Legacy deck.

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From my experience playing UR Stiflenought (plays a pretty similar game as RUG against combo) for a short time I felt decent against combo. As for storm it's not unwinnable, but I feel like a good hand from RUG is tough to beat. Yes soft permission isn't the greatest, but they can attack mana, have disruption, and a solid clock. I do think it's a #SkillIntensive match up, but it doesn't seem like its super in either favor I guess. BUG seemed much more terrifying because of discard than RUG though

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Originally Posted by H

Don't know, you may well be right that there isn't a way to do it. Possibly Lavamancer, if that doesn't create too much tension on the 'yard with the Delve creatures. Possibly Swiftspear, but again, maybe not.

However, my skepticism still abounds. We'll see what people come up with though.

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The maindeck disruption in RUG isn't any lesser than the disruption in Grixis (4 FOW 4 Daze 2 SpellPierce (in fact RUG has 'more' combo hate maindeck because it plays Stifle over Probe)
And then from the SB the only anti-combo tool Grixis has over RUG is Therapy, which becomes much worse now because of the Probe ban, so you might have to play other discard instead
DRS is a better anti-combo card than Mongoose, sure, but you can't play DRS anymore either

I'm not convinced that what is basically UR Delver with Thoughtseize in the SB is significantly better than RUG vs combo

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Originally Posted by Machinus

If you find yourself banning cantrips and mana elves, you fucked up your banned list.

The solution is to fix previous ban mistakes.

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lol

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

Speaking from the Storm experience, I'd say it's a very skill-indexed matchup. Bad RUG players are bad against combo, bad combo players are bad against RUG. I'd think BUG Delver would generally be the scarier matchup for combo, since you have discard and counters and waste and all that. It's basically all the interactive directions coming at you at once, and there can be a 3/2 flying in on turn 2. Though, idk how good BUG would be w/o DRS

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BUG has been kind of a deck in Legacy for years, even prior to DRS. I think there was a version running around at one point called Team America or something that was basically a RUG deck but with discard and a top end of Tombstalker.

I'd imagine RUG is the easier sell right now since Goose is better in that deck and people may try to figure out if they can run greedy splashes without DRS, and RUG punishes the shit out of that through Wasteland, Stifle, and the ability to Pyroblast / REB desperation cantrips. I also don't think we'll see a tremendous resurgence of combo for a variety of reasons so I don't think playing a deck with counters and discard gets you that much more mileage than a deck with just counters.

Also, glad to see DRS go. That card was one of the major homogenizing forces that's kept the format stale and part of the reason I cashed out many years ago.

So in inverse of Finn's question, what's the rational argument for banning Gitaxian Probe? We've all had plenty of feel-bads with plenty of cards. And I still can't see Probe to warp the format to nearly the degree of Chalice. Not to mention Barnstorm.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

So in inverse of Finn's question, what's the rational argument for banning Gitaxian Probe? We've all had plenty of feel-bads with plenty of cards. And I still can't see Probe to warp the format to nearly the degree of Chalice. Not to mention Barnstorm.

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Probe is a ticking time bomb, see also how it created mana with delve spells. Probe is inherently uninteractive, you use a resource that can't really be interacted with (life, especially at beginning of a game) and know how to minimize the effect of their possible interaction.

Taken within the context of DRS ban as well, games don't end before they begin while still getting to play 1-card combos (efficient creatures). No more turn 1 Sea, DRS -> no way to really stop turn 2 Hymn. No more Probe, Sea, Therapy -> take 2-4 cards, untap and creature for the win.

Huh. Well, I lost Top last year from Painter (still working on that one), but now the creature I hated to see most t1 while playing Reanimator is gone, so that's neat.

Losing Probe hurt a lot, as I had ANT built. It's not the best card in the deck or anything, it just hurts overall consistency and protection (knowing precisely when I could go off was kind of huge to me).