Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
In other words, people aren't salty about DRS because they know it deserves a ban, whereas people are salty about Top because it wasn't the card that needed a ban from that deck.
No, that's not true at all. DRS should not have been banned, that's my opinion on the subject, but to make the argument as to why it should have been legal means a debate on the shell that built around it and I am just too weary to have that fight any longer.
Top was fucked from the moment Miracles was worthy of action, because it was the enabler and Wizards, for all the shit they do inconsistently, almost always go after the enablers. But people would rather cry over shit like 'events still going to time' then debate the fact that Wizards actually acted consistently for once.
People where salty about Top because they where out of their tree thinking Wizards should act inconsistently for once on behalf of them. But these same morons would rip strips off Wizards if they did something else inconsistently. Fools are follish, Wizards can't win, water is wet, Brainstorm could have been banned and Top would be legal. Can't please everyone, not much point to try.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
I understand what you're saying, but duals are still the best choice 99% of the time and thus before you play any number of Seachrome Coast, Glacial Fortress, or Mystic Gate, you are already maxed out on Tundra
Maybe, but I can think of a couple reasons to find the two next-best ones and run 3 alpha duals/2 second-best "dual" /2 3rd best "dual".
Destroy all ~all basic land type~ cards
I.e. Boil, Flashfires, Choke, etc.
Wasteland + Surgical (+ Snapcaster?)
At any rate, I don't think there is a real way of taking on prices of reserve list dual lands successfully. I do think that if those who don't have them soon want to play legacy with more than one color, it would be healthy to ban the real tournament time-waster, the extra 8-10 shuffles players take each game just by including fetches. Even if it's a wash on the dual lands price-point, it still opens up more land cards in a format where decks currently cost the same as a semester of community college, and exactly due to the cost of the Mana base (in most cases).
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Or the Miracles players are smart enough to see past the BS rationale that WotC gave for the Top ban and people have been saying DRS is broke since even before the Top ban.
In other words, people aren't salty about DRS because they know it deserves a ban, whereas people are salty about Top because it wasn't the card that needed a ban from that deck.
Honestly, the right ban, which was terminus, would have got miracle control even harder.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Noctalor
Honestly, the right ban, which was terminus, would have got miracle control even harder.
So every time we see this it's important to point out that creature-feature decks always lose to white cards. Wraths are getting better (Verdict), faster (Settle the Wreckage), and cheaper (Slaughter the Strong). There is little reason to believe cheaper wrath effects will not drop their conditional clauses going forwards, making Terminus ban pointless. If you're dying to Terminus, send Surgical Extraction after Swords to Plowshares - this is why you can't rebuild. Stop playing Mother of Runes (plus or minus a mana dork) into a creature that can actually attack and expect to keep getting rewarded for this poor play pattern.
Banning Terminus unfairly pushes the power level of DnT relative to other creature decks b/c they're the only ones with Thalia/Wasteland/Port - they're the only ones that can stop a 4 mana wrath because it didn't cost 1; your fair creature deck isn't going to kill miracles with its value scum, mana dorks, and non-attackers before they punish you with a white card and close the door with StP/SCM while sitting behind their JTMS each turn.
If you want to play against fewer copies Terminus, you ban Counterbalance and suddenly miracles needs to cut white cards for blue cards. Aggro-based balance is deeply flawed in that it is only DnT-driven balance. Even if you run Thalia and Wasteland, you're tapping down to do things - DnT isn't.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Broke: "Creature? Dies to removal"
Woke: "Removal? Dies to Surgical"
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Or the Miracles players are smart enough to see past the BS rationale that WotC gave for the Top ban and people have been saying DRS is broke since even before the Top ban.
In other words, people aren't salty about DRS because they know it deserves a ban, whereas people are salty about Top because it wasn't the card that needed a ban from that deck.
Top was the logical ban, as it caused time issues ("Everybody, just git gud with Top!" isn't an argument here, since one bad player can hold up the entire tournament) and was already banned in two other formats for the same reason. With Top being the essential core to the former Miracle decks, it was a good ban. The saltiness come actually from two sides:
a) Players of decks that got hit by the collateral damage, like Painter and Nic Fit and
b) Miracle player who can't admit that Miracles was fucking broken after it manhandled the format for 3 years straight.
Miracles is still good because the other enabler, the Xerox shell, mainly Brainstorm, is considered a "format pillar". :rolleyes:
Re: All B/R update speculation.
came to this thread for some salt, lulz, and the occasional insight… 7/10 rating (needs more insight, and i was happily surprised not to see as much salt as expected!)
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Originally Posted by
Aggro_zombies
BUG has been kind of a deck in Legacy for years, even prior to DRS. I think there was a version running around at one point called Team America or something that was basically a RUG deck but with discard and a top end of Tombstalker.
If you're taking the piss, well done. If not, get the hell off my lawn. Twas a T1 deck back when I came back to Legacy!!!
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Originally Posted by
JBlaze
Dear Scrubs,
Keep banning shit motherfuckers were still going to crush your janky fucking brews.
Remember this is our format your just dead money in the prize pool.
Get pwned noobs
:tongue::cry::laugh:
Sincerely,
Blue mages
Happy 4th everybody
*slow clap*
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I'd still like to see the format if they banned:
Brainstorm
every card with "Storm" on it
TNN
Delver
Leovold
Show and Tell
Ponder/Preordain would still let people run cantrip and tempo shells, but the hit blue took would be offset by the damage to stupid combo, thus requiring "real" combination decks, not just a mass of mana and draw spells followed by "storm card X" and you'd get actual, competitive decks in the format that weren't Prison(DnT or Stompy)/Xerox/Combo (Snt or storm based, i.e. only blue gets to interact with them).
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
I'd still like to see the format if they banned:
Brainstorm
every card with "Storm" on it
TNN
Delver
Leovold
Show and Tell
Ponder/Preordain would still let people run cantrip and tempo shells, but the hit blue took would be offset by the damage to stupid combo, thus requiring "real" combination decks, not just a mass of mana and draw spells followed by "storm card X" and you'd get actual, competitive decks in the format that weren't Prison(DnT or Stompy)/Xerox/Combo (Snt or storm based, i.e. only blue gets to interact with them).
If you are willing to ban 10 or more cards, your list should start with Polluted Delta, Flooded Strand & Co.
You would end up with a much smaller banlist in the end because TC, DRS, DDT, SdT, etc would all be crap cards which you could unban.
What you propose translates into "ban Vengevine, griselbrand, loyal retainer, necrotic ooze & Co ... but leave Survival legal"
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
I'd still like to see the format if they banned:
Brainstorm
every card with "Storm" on it
TNN
Delver
Leovold
Show and Tell
Ponder/Preordain would still let people run cantrip and tempo shells, but the hit blue took would be offset by the damage to stupid combo, thus requiring "real" combination decks, not just a mass of mana and draw spells followed by "storm card X" and you'd get actual, competitive decks in the format that weren't Prison(DnT or Stompy)/Xerox/Combo (Snt or storm based, i.e. only blue gets to interact with them).
I don't see the point of banning Storm cards. And I mean, if you did that...
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...3671&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...5241&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...0027&type=card
You'd still get wrecked by people doing the Storm-tastic thing with a green coat of paint.
As far as dumb things go, your list doesn't address reanimating Griseltard, which is infinitely more obnoxious than Storm could ever hope to be. Hell, S&T is fine if you'd still have a game left after S&T/reanimation spell resolved. You don't.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
As I have said before, I am all for banning every strom card. I am so fucking sick of dying to Sprouting Vines.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Zombie
Non-Blue decks can interact with that though. Non-blue decks can interact with reanimating Griselbrand. They can't interact with Storm shenanigans.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
Non-Blue decks can interact with that though. Non-blue decks can interact with reanimating Griselbrand. They can't interact with Storm shenanigans.
Pls meet Thalia and Canonist. They hate storm too. You have sooooo much in common. You should exchange numbers.
#HitchTheStormDoctor
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
As I have said before, I am all for banning every strom card. I am so fucking sick of dying to Sprouting Vines.
Didn't you know, the format will be far superior when the Banned List accurately reflects what I personally like and dislike? And people absolutely, positively should not be allowed to do things I don't like.
Isn't that what this whole thread is about?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
Non-Blue decks can interact with that though. Non-blue decks can interact with reanimating Griselbrand. They can't interact with Storm shenanigans.
Weird, I thought Thoughtseize, Thalia, Teeg, Thorn, Chalice and Null Rod were all cards. I've ground down goblin hordes with DRS eating its fellow Elves that I threw under the goblin bus. I've spent an afternoon basically playing TES mirrors and the most broken card in the matchup was white. I've had infinitely more trouble dealing with nonsense like Dredge and Griselbrand.
I mean, I'm somewhat biased in that I think engine combo is way more interesting than A+B decks, but even then. Storm's been fine in my experience and if it's too strong it can be dealt with in a nuanced way rather than deleting the archetype from existence. Saying this as someone who primarily plays a nonblue deck that has an unfavourable Storm matchup.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zombie
Storm's been fine in my experience and if it's too strong it can be dealt with in a nuanced way...
...by banning Probe
http://www.hilariousgifs.com/i/tZOS8.gif
Re: All B/R update speculation.
OK but seriously ax Chancellor of the annex.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
Didn't you know, the format will be far superior when the Banned List accurately reflects what I personally like and dislike? And people absolutely, positively should not be allowed to do things I don't like.
Isn't that what this whole thread is about?
I have, for years, been saying they should ban decks I can't beat and push decks I can beat.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
I have, for years, been saying they should ban decks I can't beat and push decks I play
Ftfy
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
If you are willing to ban 10 or more cards, your list should start with Polluted Delta, Flooded Strand & Co.
You would end up with a much smaller banlist in the end because TC, DRS, DDT, SdT, etc would all be crap cards which you could unban...l"
Lemnear, I am really coming around to your point of view on this. This most recent banning drives this point home even more. I am reiterating here...Without fetchies, Brainstorm would also be a much weakened card. Add to that the recent discussion of how many different lands would feel more useful if we aren't always fetching for basic land types. Over time it seems like the price tag of duals would ease some - perhaps even a lot, as players begin to see value in non-traditional mana bases.
You get to keep the fun cards that have hitherto been havoc on Legacy while pruning their effect, and you reduce the barrier for entry. Is there a downside to this plan?
