All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by H

Now this is the B&R thread we've all come to know and love. We haven't even had the current ban come into effect and we are already planning the umpteen subsequent bans we need.

Reminds me of something that (I think it was) BrassMan said over at TMD. That no one wants to discuss the actual current card pool, only hypothetical future card pools...

How far can we go? Can we push the limit? What about the next 10 bans? Can we ban cards before they exist? Lets think outside the box everybody, this shit now is small potatoes. Lets push BIG ROCKS.

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Skipping about 17 steps, ban Lightning Bolt! The rate is too good for only one mana, shits broke y'all.

Muthafucka gotta go.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Skipping about 17 steps, ban Lightning Bolt! The rate is too good for only one mana, shits broke y'all.

Muthafucka gotta go.

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Sounds like Maro's design philosophy. Fuck good things when you can have a whole load of uninspired mediocrity at 3+ mana (while also admitting 1-2 years later that new design X was a mistake in hindsight).

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Originally Posted by H

Lets think outside the box everybody, this shit now is small potatoes. Lets push BIG ROCKS.

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Big rocks should be banned

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Skipping about 17 steps, ban Lightning Bolt! The rate is too good for only one mana, shits broke y'all.

Muthafucka gotta go.

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Now that's the spirit. Anything south of Ember Shot is oppressive to sub-4 toughness creatures and needs to go. That's some bullshit, you know how many new strategies would open up? Neither do I. It's probably millions though.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Big rocks should be banned

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So. Fucking. Meta.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Big rocks should be banned

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Please don't ban Thran Dynamo.

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Originally Posted by Andy_Prime

About banning fetches people haven't mentioned one of the most important things. It cuts out chances for cheating. There is much less picking up decks and manipulating them. Many of the big cheaters in the last years where made possible by fetches being in standard.

For that and the saved time shuffling and cutting alone I would be all for them going away.

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All of them used their decks. Maybe we should have surrogates play the games too.

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Originally Posted by Finn

Lemnear, I am really coming around to your point of view on this. This most recent banning drives this point home even more. I am reiterating here...Without fetchies, Brainstorm would also be a much weakened card. Add to that the recent discussion of how many different lands would feel more useful if we aren't always fetching for basic land types. Over time it seems like the price tag of duals would ease some - perhaps even a lot, as players begin to see value in non-traditional mana bases.

You get to keep the fun cards that have hitherto been havoc on Legacy while pruning their effect, and you reduce the barrier for entry. Is there a downside to this plan?

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I played legacy lantern with fastlands, spires and glimmervoid and maindecked choke. It worked great, the manabase was never working against me and I got to really manhandle Miracles with it. There's plenty of manabases to discover if fetchlands get axed. It would make the game a lot more interesting. Ponder would take Brainstorm's place, and brainstorm probably wouldn't even be played, which already feels more fair. DRS, Top, Daze and many other cards would become less overbearing too.

It would also force the 4 color deck to use 5-color lands more often because due to fetchland the cost of running multiple colors has gone away. By removing fetchland you restore a lot of the character of the game and restore the identity of the color pie, to the extent that this is still possible.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

I played legacy lantern with fastlands, spires and glimmervoid and maindecked choke. It worked great, the manabase was never working against me and I got to really manhandle Miracles with it. There's plenty of manabases to discover if fetchlands get axed. It would make the game a lot more interesting. Ponder would take Brainstorm's place, and brainstorm probably wouldn't even be played, which already feels more fair. DRS, Top, Daze and many other cards would become less overbearing too.

It would also force the 4 color deck to use 5-color lands more often because due to fetchland the cost of running multiple colors has gone away. By removing fetchland you restore a lot of the character of the game and restore the identity of the color pie, to the extent that this is still possible.

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I feel like any deck planning to be active on turn 1 would max out duals first, shocks second as they can always ETB untapped, and then whatever oddball has the third best chance of not coming in tapped (painlands?). Of course this assumes that tempo and fast combo are able to keep up the pace in a fetchless world.

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Originally Posted by Finn

Lemnear, I am really coming around to your point of view on this. This most recent banning drives this point home even more. I am reiterating here...Without fetchies, Brainstorm would also be a much weakened card. Add to that the recent discussion of how many different lands would feel more useful if we aren't always fetching for basic land types. Over time it seems like the price tag of duals would ease some - perhaps even a lot, as players begin to see value in non-traditional mana bases.

You get to keep the fun cards that have hitherto been havoc on Legacy while pruning their effect, and you reduce the barrier for entry. Is there a downside to this plan?

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This is Pauper, mind you, but there people are running as much as 7 fetchlands to fuel snow land counts for Skred and to get shuffles for Brainstorm. It's interesting to note that in Pauper Preordain is usually the default cantrip because they have to take a huge hit in speed to enable Brainstorm.

Banning fetches would make 3+ color decks need a dork or cantrips (kind of). Even if you just load up on duals, I think 3 colors without fetchlands would be greedier than current 4c decks and more vulnerable to blood moon/ wasteland because fetching for basics isn't a thing, even if drs was unbanned, it wouldn't be able to use its mana ability as frequently as with fetches.

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Originally Posted by phonics

Banning fetches would make 3+ color decks need a dork or cantrips (kind of). Even if you just load up on duals, I think 3 colors without fetchlands would be greedier than current 4c decks and more vulnerable to blood moon/ wasteland because fetching for basics isn't a thing, even if drs was unbanned, it wouldn't be able to use its mana ability as frequently as with fetches.

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Isn't that something more in line with the original idea and concept of Back to Basics and Blood Moon to punish greedy 3c decks?

I think we all have been brainwashed a bit by Fetchland+Duals+DRS in the last 6 years, believing that 3 to 3.5 colors decks without issues or drawbacks are normal.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

This is Pauper, mind you, but there people are running as much as 7 fetchlands to fuel snow land counts for Skred and to get shuffles for Brainstorm. It's interesting to note that in Pauper Preordain is usually the default cantrip because they have to take a huge hit in speed to enable Brainstorm.

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Relatable, as I mentioned Ponders problems if you have to take the top 3 cards instead of cherrypicking one.

I don't think there is a downside if people have to make tradeoffs and work for their perfect brainstorms instead of having them cost only 1 lifepoint and get additionally rewarded with perfect mana

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Originally Posted by phonics

Banning fetches would make 3+ color decks need a dork or cantrips (kind of). Even if you just load up on duals, I think 3 colors without fetchlands would be greedier than current 4c decks and more vulnerable to blood moon/ wasteland because fetching for basics isn't a thing, even if drs was unbanned, it wouldn't be able to use its mana ability as frequently as with fetches.

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This seems like a feature to me. Not a problem.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I think we all have been brainwashed a bit by Fetchland+Duals+DRS in the last 6 years, believing that 3 to 3.5 colors decks without issues or drawbacks are normal.

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This is what wizards WANT, however. They exploit all the possibilities of the game. The invention of playable multi color cards, supported by variations of dual lands, is a good way, in theory, to get variation and keep the game alive. I don't expect that to change.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

This is what wizards WANT, however. They exploit all the possibilities of the game. The invention of playable multi color cards, supported by variations of dual lands, is a good way, in theory, to get variation and keep the game alive. I don't expect that to change.

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I think the DRS 4c decks we had until the ban impressively demonstrated how easy access to 3 or more colors removes variation and diversity from a format. Not having to make tradeoffs in terms of color/cardselection automatically results in pure goodstuff decks.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Not having to make tradeoffs in terms of color/cardselection automatically results in pure goodstuff decks.

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This

It was also demonstrated during the fetches/duals Standard season of Khans/BFZ. Everything devolved into a 4C clusterfuck with illustrious names such as "Dark Jeskai". That's why counterplay is so important - restrictions breed creativity.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I think the DRS 4c decks we had until the ban impressively demonstrated how easy access to 3 or more colors removes variation and diversity from a format. Not having to make tradeoffs in terms of color/cardselection automatically results in pure goodstuff decks.

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I think that the pre-DRS 4c decks we had before that card got printed impressively demonstrated that trying to be that greedy with your manabase without having a broken manadork is a recipe for being reamed by Canadian.
(EDIT: this is why the Khans Standard comparison is dumb, because that was in a format with literally 0 playable manadenial options)

I agree with your philosophy that 'midrange/goodstuff decks being able to play any card removes an interesting strategic element from the game', but we just axed the best manafixer so maybe you can pause your crusade for a minute and see where the format goes.

In my opinion banning fetches pushes the dynamic too far in the other direction (towards making 2-3 color decks unplayable), especially if Wasteland is legal
"I guess I just lose to this because there is no answer in my colours" or "Can't play this cool combo I thought of because the mana is terrible" isn't a great place for the format either

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I think the DRS 4c decks we had until the ban impressively demonstrated how easy access to 3 or more colors removes variation and diversity from a format. Not having to make tradeoffs in terms of color/cardselection automatically results in pure goodstuff decks.

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Yeah, part of the problem is also that good gold cards have good color requirements that lead to easy inclusion of supporting cards. Take Leovold for example. Black for Thoughtseize, Gurmag; green for DRS and goyf; blue for all the blue good stuff. It would have been so much better to give leovold :b::b::u: casting cost, for example.

With DRS gone no one has mentioned the two most impactful changes to the meta: lackey connects and Odious Trow replaces DRS in the Spainish Inquisition.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

I think that the pre-DRS 4c decks we had before that card got printed impressively demonstrated that trying to be that greedy with your manabase without having a broken manadork is a recipe for being reamed by Canadian.
(EDIT: this is why the Khans Standard comparison is dumb, because that was in a format with literally 0 playable manadenial options)

I agree with your philosophy that 'midrange/goodstuff decks being able to play any card removes an interesting strategic element from the game', but we just axed the best manafixer so maybe you can pause your crusade for a minute and see where the format goes.

In my opinion banning fetches pushes the dynamic too far in the other direction (towards making 2-3 color decks unplayable), especially if Wasteland is legal
"I guess I just lose to this because there is no answer in my colours" or "Can't play this cool combo I thought of because the mana is terrible" isn't a great place for the format either

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I do not think banning the fetchlands will remove the possibility to play 3 or 4 colors. I play mtg since the Rath block and we had multicolored mana decks. I recently am more and more interested in Premodern, mostly because of the stagnation in Legacy(now this might change), here is a list that took second place in a recent tournament in Sweden.

MAIN DECK | 60 cards

Instants and Sorceries: 34
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Fire // Ice
2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Clear
3 Impulse
1 Miscalculation
4 Counterspell
3 Absorb
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Wrath of God
2 Decree of Justice

Others: 1
1 Humility

Lands: 25
4 Grand Coliseum
4 Reflecting Pool
3 Shivan Reef
1 Adarkar Wastes
2 Battlefield Forge
1 City of Brass
3 Coastal Tower
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Plains

SIDEBOARD | 15 cards
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Shattering Pulse
4 Meddling Mage
1 Slice and Dice

As you can see he played only two fetchlands in a format where you have access to the Onslaught Fetch. Changing the painlands to duallands will be obvious in this situation and i do not think completely switching Flooded Strand to Adarkar Wastes/City of Brass will demolish the mana base. This is also a format where Brainstorm is banned, btw.

I think removing the fetchlands should be considered as an possibility by WotC.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Yeah, part of the problem is also that good gold cards have good color requirements that lead to easy inclusion of supporting cards. Take Leovold for example. Black for Thoughtseize, Gurmag; green for DRS and goyf; blue for all the blue good stuff. It would have been so much better to give leovold :b::b::u: casting cost, for example.

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Tarmogoyf wasn't even a Legacy card during DRS' reign. Moreover, i doesnt matter if Leovold is :u::g::b: or :b::b::g: if you can cast the card off DRS without the need to have a green producing land in play. The fact that some decks seriously ran K.Command alongside Jace just underlines the absurdity of colorfixing going on.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

your crusade for a minute and see where the format goes.

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I'm not on a crusade against DRS, even stating it several times across threads.

However, i am kinda annoyed that WotC once again just chopped the hydras head, instead of laying hands on the enabler of all the problem cards. For more than half a decade, we just dance around the 0cc shuffle, colorfix and manabase protectors, while bitching/moaning/banning every card (directly or indirectly) running on their back. TC, DRS, SDT, DTT, BS, Ponder, Delver, Angler, Leovold, and many, many more.

It has become a running joke to ban everything but Fetches + Brainstorm + Ponder