Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
-1 on the Eldrazi AltlKill. If you want reliable alternative WinCons, why don't just go NLS ?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dia_Bot
Has anyone already tested playing chants in a RBU NLS deck (with 4 burning wish and quite some red cards in SB). I was wondering if it was possible to replace duress with chants or if it would weaken your mana base too much.
Well... Some NLS builds packed some City of Brass in their mana base, alla TES.
Maybe you should take a look at Emidln's blog and this old list :
With 7 Fetches, the Scrubland and the 3 Cities (along with the Petals), Orim's Chant as well as Silence should be 'castable' on a regular basis.
Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Thx alot, that's just what I was looking for.
Re: [DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
You'll pry my 7+ Duresses from my cold dead hands before I run Chant in NLS again. The solution is to splash swarm and/or carpet of flowers and/or play better.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I second what Emidlin said.
While I would never run Emrakul in Storm... I could see it being hella funny...
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
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You'll pry my 7+ Duresses from my cold dead hands before I run Chant in NLS again. The solution is to splash swarm and/or carpet of flowers and/or play better.
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I second what Emidlin said.
Yeah, I've always played duress in NLS (and liked it!). I was just curious if it would have been possible without ruining your mana base.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nodahero
While I would never run Emrakul in Storm... I could see it being hella funny...
Funny for you when it works, extra funny for your opponent when you flip Emrakul off AdN.
After having to pass the turn post Doomsday, it's largest downside is forcing you to either side out AdN or risk having an ista-lose somewhere in your deck. Also, B.C., "Uncounterable" is a stretch for a benefit as the combo itself is still reliant on resolving DD.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Yeah, there's some obvious anti-synergy between Emrakul and AdN, which is why I think Shell-Emrakul should come out of the board and not be in the main deck. It would probably come in against slower control decks that don't play Wastelands, and then AdN would go out.
I agree Doomsday could get countered, but that's true whether Shell-Emrakul is your finish or not. I guess I was think more along the lines of Counterbalance. If you can force your DD through CB, which should be eminently possible, then the rest of the combo should be unaffected.
I guess the bottom line is that I don't know how awesome Emrakul will be out of the board, but I definitely think it's worth trying. I think it's being dismissed by too many people in this thread. It's not going to supersede Tendrils as Plan A, but there are situations where it is going to be a really good option.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
You board out AdN when you bring in Emrakul. You still have the Tendrils kill available to you after AdN is gone because of the two fine storm engines in IGG and Doomsday.
Currently I'm playing this:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// NAME: Emrakul
// Lands
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Underground Sea
1 [4E] Island (1)
1 [P3] Swamp (2)
1 [B] Tropical Island
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
// Spells
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [M10] Ponder
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [TE] Meditate
1 [WL] Doomsday
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
4 [ARE] Duress
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [DM] Dark Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [R] Bayou
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [R] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [CS] Deathmark
In my opinion this deck has too many bombs for any blue control deck (without Wasteland) to deal with, and against the blue tempo decks it has the usual 55/45 matchup
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Why only 3 Sensei Diving Top?
If you play Doomsday you have to play 4!
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kikoo
You board out AdN when you bring in Emrakul. You still have the Tendrils kill available to you after AdN is gone because of the two fine storm engines in IGG and Doomsday.
Emrakul is dependent on the Doomsday engine - not in addition to it. Using Emrakul in place of AdN does not increase your bomb density - it decreases that density. Also, IGG becomes suspect against anything running blue - which is where the Emrakul pass the turn pile is being advocated most (at least, I would rather not go "DD pass" against a more aggressive deck). In essence you're funneling your route to victory through a single enabler. I'm not saying decks with DD (+IGG) as their only storm engine aren't viable I'm just not sure dropping one of the decks biggest bombs for a mid-late game pass the turn pile is a boarding plan you're going to want to follow too often.
Here's what it comes down to: what MUs does the Emrakul pile improve? A resolved Doomsday already has the ability to win through CB.
The biggest benefits I can see is there's no requirement on the cards in your hand - unless you don't have Top out in which case you need a draw spell and the mana to play it (or wait an extra turn). This can be nice against decks with lots of counters/disruption, if they force you to deplete your hand, but is that enough? AdN is generally fine against slower blue decks late into the game anyway.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Why only 3 Sensei Diving Top?
If you play Doomsday you have to play 4!
Just personal preference. When playing 4 I often find myself drawing too many of them when I don't want to.
Quote:
Here's what it comes down to: what MUs does the Emrakul pile improve? A resolved Doomsday already has the ability to win through CB.
Counterbalance matchup. Yes, it's possible to win through Counterbalance, but it's infinitely easier when you only have to resolve 1 spell (Doomsday) to win.
Doomsday is often a lot better than AdN against blue decks in my opinion, so I don't consider it a loss when I have to sideboard AdN out. Also, you have to invest a ton of resources into playing a AdN, and you have to wait for some kind of protection before you play it. When you play 3-4 Doomsday you don't really have to wait for protection, just play around Daze and if it gets FoW'd you can just play another one next turn.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sunshine
Emrakul is dependent on the Doomsday engine - not in addition to it. Using Emrakul in place of AdN does not increase your bomb density - it decreases that density.
But I think if you side in extra Doomsdays than this is not true. Siding in 2 DD, Emrak, Shell gives you more Doomsdays and more ways to win with them. Meddling Mage on Doomsday might hurt a little, but other than that, I can't think of why 3 DD, IGG is not > 1 DD, AdN, IGG.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sunshine
Here's what it comes down to: what MUs does the Emrakul pile improve?
To me, this is the million dollar question. Only testing will tell for sure, and as of right now I have very little of that. My first impression is that it hinges on Wasteland. So, off the top of my head I would say:
Out:
Merfolks
Goblins
Loam
Tempo Thresh
Dredge (too slow)
Mirror/Belcher (too slow)
Lands
Other stuff with Wasteland
In:
Countertop
Pro Bant
Survival
Zoo
Enchantress
Other stuff without Wasteland
The biggest benefit I see from Emrakul-Shell is the low mana requirement. You need BBB to cast Doomsday, then you need U on the next turn. The DD pile I use most often for Tendrils requires DDDU2 if you want to win on the turn you play DD (which I usually do). It also gets around hate, as I stated previously. From the "In" decks I just listed, postboard you can expect to see Canonist, Teeg, Meddling Mage, Runed Halo, maybe Pyro Pillar from Zoo. Emrakul doesn't really care about any of those except maybe Meddling Mage.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Here is an alternative to the Emrakul plan that I have been thinking to test for a loong time just because it might be crazy enough to surprize the opponent at least once, although it demands some reconfiguration of the deck. Progenitus Natural order Combo.
You should play a high count of Misty rainforest in the deck and maybe some Verdant Catacombs. One Tropical in the Maindeck and probably one Bayo in the board. The other cards to be played in the board are 1 Progenitus, 1 Natural Order (2 if you are playing Burning wish) 1 Dryad Arbor and of course the four Xantid Swarm you are already playing.
Board out Ad Nauseam of corse and board in the Doomsdayplan together with Natural order.
Play Xantid swarm and hope it sticks, hit them once and play an uncounterable Natural Order.
The biggest gain is that Counterbalance will have a hard time countering it as long as you have a Xantid Swarm out, otherwise you can hope for a Duress or Thoughtseize to stick to grab their counterspell and use Dryad Arbor.
It almost has the same benefits as emrakul but don't require doomsday to combo out, and since your probably already boarding out Ad Nauseam for Doomsday it will not affect the combo plan itself.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wave
Here is an alternative to the Emrakul plan that I have been thinking to test for a loong time just because it might be crazy enough to surprize the opponent at least once, although it demands some reconfiguration of the deck. Progenitus Natural order Combo.
You should play a high count of Misty rainforest in the deck and maybe some Verdant Catacombs. One Tropical in the Maindeck and probably one Bayo in the board. The other cards to be played in the board are 1 Progenitus, 1 Natural Order (2 if you are playing Burning wish) 1 Dryad Arbor and of course the four Xantid Swarm you are already playing.
Board out Ad Nauseam of corse and board in the Doomsdayplan together with Natural order.
Play Xantid swarm and hope it sticks, hit them once and play an uncounterable Natural Order.
The biggest gain is that Counterbalance will have a hard time countering it as long as you have a Xantid Swarm out, otherwise you can hope for a Duress or Thoughtseize to stick to grab their counterspell and use Dryad Arbor.
It almost has the same benefits as emrakul but don't require doomsday to combo out, and since your probably already boarding out Ad Nauseam for Doomsday it will not affect the combo plan itself.
This plan actually sounds doable. I always wanted a transformational sideboard for the deck, but its cards are so specific that it's hard to find a plan that evades most common storm hate.
The list would probably lean towards Saitou's list with a lot of discard, no Ill-Gotten Gains, etc. But you will need to run at least 3 SDTs to support Doomsday, and maybe Ill-Gotten Gains should be somewhere in the 75 to allow bigger Doomsday piles.
I think this sounds like a powerful plan to say the least. In my opinion it's at least worth testing.
The Emrakul plan is also cool as it's somewhat contained in the Doomsday. But its fragility is something to consider. Wasteland and Stifle are everywhere, and while it probably beats CB I would like a plan that I can side against more decks. The thing is, people end up sideboarding in a lot of crap and end up with slower decks, that gives you a better chance to win with a plan B that's not affected so much by the hate that came in for plan A.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Here is an alternative to the Emrakul plan that I have been thinking to test for a loong time just because it might be crazy enough to surprize the opponent at least once, although it demands some reconfiguration of the deck. Progenitus Natural order Combo.
You should play a high count of Misty rainforest in the deck and maybe some Verdant Catacombs. One Tropical in the Maindeck and probably one Bayo in the board. The other cards to be played in the board are 1 Progenitus, 1 Natural Order (2 if you are playing Burning wish) 1 Dryad Arbor and of course the four Xantid Swarm you are already playing.
Board out Ad Nauseam of corse and board in the Doomsdayplan together with Natural order.
Play Xantid swarm and hope it sticks, hit them once and play an uncounterable Natural Order.
The biggest gain is that Counterbalance will have a hard time countering it as long as you have a Xantid Swarm out, otherwise you can hope for a Duress or Thoughtseize to stick to grab their counterspell and use Dryad Arbor.
It almost has the same benefits as emrakul but don't require doomsday to combo out, and since your probably already boarding out Ad Nauseam for Doomsday it will not affect the combo plan itself.
I would never play progenitus + NO in DDAnt. You say it will improve the counterbalance matchup but in fact most counterbalance decks (atleast in my area) are bant decks. Those deck pack maindeck natural orders and progenitus. So even if your plan works out the counterbalance deck plays a natural order of himself the next turn and you obviously lose the game (in case you had to DD for NO). On top of that you will have to be playing a really bad land that doesn't make mana when it comes into play and is easily sinkholed by stp effects and you "lose" sideboard slots. However, I do like the fact that it doesn't rely on DD but I'm not convinced.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Actually, being a Countertop player for the last 3 month I know that the right sideboardplan is to board out Natural Order for Spellpierce or whatever is in the board that is faster and better, if you don't belive me read the Countertop thread, although you can't always hope for a good countertop player sitting in front of you ;). Natural Order - Progenitus is to slow and when you play it you tap out leaving an opening for the comboplayer to utilize. I am not saying that the Natural Order plan is the all out answer to Countertop decks im just stating that it is an option to the Emrakul plan.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I would like to have some tips & trix on how to handle the Reanimator matchup-up. I consider the match-up to be pretty even, but as I see this deck gaining a lot more attention, I would feel a lot safer going to a tournament knowing exactly how to behave when facing it.
How do you sideboard? More specific, do you sideboard defensively, taking more of a control role game 2 & 3, or du you board aggresively, focusing on winning before they get anything relevant (Iona) on the board?
I use a homebrew ANT w/ Igg- build (no DD), 3 duress, 5 chant, 1 bounce MD, with a sideboard consisting of some additional bounce, creature-kill, randoms, and 4 spell pierce. I usually board in spell pierce against control and discard, and lately also against reanimator, but I'm not really sure if the defenisive strategy is the right call, or if it's just better to go balls to the walls.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I'd say it depends on your hand, but since they have FoW and daze, you are the aggressor. Duress/thoughtseize fucks them up, as my testing has shown reanimator is very vulnerable to discard. Extirpate also works pretty well
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I don't think you should be defensive in this matchup, you are definitely the aggressor. You should board in Extirpate (if you have it) and all your bounce. There's no point in boarding in black removal since they will always reanimate Iona on black. Duress effects are very good against them, but Chant effects are unfortunately considerably worse in this matchup.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kikoo
Doomsday is often a lot better than AdN against blue decks in my opinion, so I don't consider it a loss when I have to sideboard AdN out. Also, you have to invest a ton of resources into playing a AdN, and you have to wait for some kind of protection before you play it. When you play 3-4 Doomsday you don't really have to wait for protection, just play around Daze and if it gets FoW'd you can just play another one next turn.
I'll start by saying I don't play the DD variant of ANT, but I have read a bunch about it. I know a lot of piles include mediate or IGG. So I have a question. What's to stop blue from letting you resolve DD, and then countering meditate or IGG? That'll leave you with whatever's left of your hand and 5 cards in your deck. Seems like it would be much tougher to go off. Now, I know that not all piles rely on these. But seriously, isn't there a lot of risk here? Even the pile that plays top over and over again...I mean, they can just counter one of the tops!
Can someone please explain why DDANT would be better than Saito's ANT in this case? Is it just a matter of the blue deck player not knowing what to counter? Thanks!
