How would you guys sideboard using the sideboard I listed? I have no idea what to take out.
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How would you guys sideboard using the sideboard I listed? I have no idea what to take out.
Reanimator uses needles and are able to do so effectively because they can comfortably draw into them, unlike Dredge which often dredges away needles that it doesn't have in the first 11 or so cards that it draws into.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
Darkblast has marginal uses. I use them to take out lavamancers, noble hierarchs, cursecatchers, hexmages and random goblins that run rampant where I play. If you often see these critters, Darkblast is just great to have. Plus, it dredges itself. Thug has its merits though, I don't play them mainly because I don't have 2 lands enough times for them to become relatively useful for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Isn't 13 slots for artifact hate a little excessive? I feel 4 Needles along with Nature's Claim, Chain of Vapor, and Ancient Grudge are a little redundant imo, unless you really do want to overkill artifact and enchantment hate. Maybe firestorms? or the 4th Grudge? I personally think 4 Grudges are needed because you want them online in your graveyard as early as possible. Might I ask what match-ups you expect to see in your meta?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
4 Needles is fine in Ichorid, even w/o DA or C.Sage. It is the same with Leyline where you mull into it, but Study can help sometimes.
Edit: C.Sage should be Sphinx.
Sideboarding;
I cut some Breakthrough or Tribes/Imps to 6,Thug goes down to 2 if list has more. If i've 4 Dr. Returns down to 2-3 depending if my targets in the mu are better than slow roll zombie beats.
In a Bloodghast\Undiscovered Paradise list it should be Cephalid Sage in general btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
nope...
Eternal Witness is the better reanimate target in Bloodghast Dredge, because you can do Witness -> Coliseum -> Landfall Trigger -> use Coliseum for the same Effect + Bloodghasts, or just recur Witness for a land... All in all EW is nearly everytime superior to Sage IMO...
then again... Bloodghast Dredge is almost everytime superior to non-Ghast Dredge IMO
@ Bryant
what about this?
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void / Coffin Purge / Natures Claim / Firestorm
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon
IMO every Dredge-Board should contain:
4 Chain
3 Grudge
1 Chosen
1 Terastodon
at least 1 more piece against Leyline (Claim/Ray/Wispmare)
this leaves 5 slots for other things
YawG
Could you post your bloodghast list? Also, how to sideboard with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
right now it looks like this...
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Dakmor Salvage
//Sideboard:
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon
Careful Study was always weak IMO... i tested it often, and never liked it...
I've tested 12 Lands before, 4 Oboro, 4 City, 4 Paradise +1 DR, +1 Iona, +1 EW -1 Tribe, which was quite good in games 2/3 because Oboro is better in that games than Coliseum. You just can't risk to lose that many cards against gravehate.
Logic with Oboro was this: We nearly ALWAYS win game 1, even if we slowroll, so I tried to optimize the MB directly for G2/3 without wasting Sideboardspace...
Ghasts still remain in play, and Ghasts with 8 recurring Lands is absolute sick. [to have 4 offs of Ichorid, Moeba & Ghast is also sick] You don't have this empty Dredges with... oh, I found nothing =(
But 3 DRs with 3 targets were too many, and I wanted the 4th Tribe in, so I came to this list. IMO 1 Salvage is required if you don't play EW.
I am testing 3 Coliseum, 2 Oboro right now, cant tell ATM if 4/1 or 3/2 is better... [I'd like 4/2 but no space >.<]
...usually I board out the Breakthroughs, because you can't "all in" in G2/3 because if they have Trap / topdeck hate, you lose... If u need more Space -1 Ichorid, -1 Thug, or -Iona in some MUs, but you never need more then 7 Slots.
YawG
I havent faced Ghast Ichorid yet(in legacy) and i could see it as more powerful and forces hate to be used before they are comfortable doing so. Isn't it dubbed "Next Level Dredge" by the kids these days? Seen a few lists running around on deckcheck with the monicker. I would like to see your list and sb'ing as well, interested in it, a version went 4-0 last night in Legacy DE online.
Edit: Ninja'd
Edit: @Yawg- Do you ever miss Study g2-3 when you are digging or for a qucik refill after EOT on hate ,maybe leave in 1 or 2 Breakthroughs games 2 -3or the extra Ichorid and Imp/Tribe (to 7)?
Although I agree that Careful Study is the weakest card in the deck, I don't see how Bloodghast is the correct replacement. Bloodghast is awesome in Vintage because you are spending your mana on fighting the hate every turn, so you need more free dudes to enable Dread Return. In Legacy, however, there is a lot less hate and you often spend your mana on hardcasting discard dudes or just 1/1 flying dorks, making it very easy to get to 3 creatures. Another argument for playing him could be the fact that he's a recurring threat, but the problem is he's not a very big threat. I often win games in Vintage by just beating down with Bloodghasts, but that's because there are few blockers in that format. On the other hand, there are infinite things that prevent BG from connecting in Legacy. Until the Ghast versions start outperforming the "normal" Dredge decks, I think I will stay on the fence. :o
Also, I'm against Boarding out Breakthrough. It's often the most game-ending spell in the deck. If you start with one in your opening hand in a sideboarded game, then your gameplan becomes very simple: clear the way of counterspells and hate and cast Breakthrough -> win. I've done silly things with the card, like beating Lands.dec when my opponent had Academy Ruins + Crypt going. I was in a situation where no other card would have saved me, but because of BT I was able to blow up all his stuff before I got locked out of the game.
Lastly, I think you should run City of Brass instead of Gemstone Mine if you play Undiscovered Paradise. It's a huge pain in the neck when Gemstone runs out of counters and you want to keep hardcasting dudes or just keep playing anti-hate cards, and the damage from Brass is rarely a problem.
I've never been sold on Bloodghast. Literally there have been four foily ones sitting in the "Maybe for Dredge" section of my playables binder since preorders shipped.
I'll pose this question for those who do like the card: What MUs does Ghast improve for you?
As far as Breakthrough goes. Running a single Breakthrough before Careful Study #4 and Coliseum #4 just seems sub-optimal to me. If I might be a little underhand, I'll steal some of Yawg's words:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
I agree with both of these completely - which raises the obvious question, is Breakthrough needed? Both Careful Study and Coliseum shine in games 2 and 3. If I could run six copies of CS I would drop Breakthrough from my list completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshine
BT: Breakthrough is broken... a resolved Breakthrough G1 spells win... G2 and 3 it can be countered by Gravehate... it's too risky to go all in, and then lose all, if you could play safely, which you can't do with BT because you need to discard your hand.
Study: in game 2&3 Studies are most of the time the most outboarded card in the deck, which means it is the worst card [same logic for LED-Dredge, which causes this deck to exist], and the LED-Dredges in the past also didin't play any Studies...
Study is weak IMO... I never was satisfied with Study, because I don't like it as an Outlet [because it isn't permanent], neither as a Dredge-enabler [because even Brainstorm is better here]... First Turn PimP or Tribe is better than Study. And after that 1st Turn with an Dredger in grave, B.Through, Coliseum, and even Brainstorm is better than Study.
Ghasts:Bloodghasts doesn't impove any MUs very much [only Aggro I think, because you can make more Zombie Tokens] ... But they enable you to play much more safely around all the hate...
They don't kill as many Creatures as Ichorids would do, so they are free damage, or if the get blocked... Tokens
You have more Critters, that can stay on the Board, you can generate Tokens, when your Grave gets crypted, and you find 1 Bridge, without any Ichorids... Pate is worthless against us with Ghasts... There are many situations in games, where Ghasts are absolutely awesome, because it's an additional way to generate Zombies.
Paradise / Oboro = Ghasts, sac to Therapies... even more Zombies... than with Ichorids only [which needs something to eat]... and if they exile your yard... you still have the beaters [unlike Ichorids]
How many of you have tested Ghasts in real games, and not only in goldfishing without hate, or in theory? IMO they are a very good completement for this deck ALONGSIDE Ichorids and Moebas, not in exchange for 1 of these.
YawG
Wow look who got drunk and ended up in my thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Also on the break though question, it is the MOST boarded out card in the deck or you're doing it wrong.
I've considered cutting it over and over but there is NO better draw spell game 1 and after board I'm more than happy with the amount of draw left in.
I think we're already in agreement that most Dredge lists, even those without Breakthrough at all, have an outstanding Game 1 Win percentage - Especially now that combo will be taking a serious hit (not to say that combo isn't viable - just that I expect its popularity to decrease). I acknowledge that Breakthrough a stronger spell than CS in game one, but can we agree that Careful Study is better than Breakthrough in post board games?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
Dredge is a highly meta dependent deck, past lists are somewhat irrelevant - particularly those with the LED package as that deck plays quite differently. Also, It doesn't really matter if turn 1 PImp > turn 1 CS - We run 4 PImp, and in most cases 4 Tribe already, beyond that there aren't any viable 1CC permanent outlets for us. Brainstorm is a better mass-dredge enabler than CS, but it's also obviously not a discard outlet. CS is the best 1CC discard outlet that also provides draw and lets you maintain a reasonable hand size - and isn't PImp or Tribe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
CS, along with Coliseum, gives you the ability to quickly refill your yard after after getting Crypted - and if you don't have a permanent discard outlet available it still allows you to get a dredger in the graveyard without over committing.
I agree, the last 5 should probably include the 4th grudge above all else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
@Yawg: Don't you find that the deck doesn't dredge/chain dredge fast enough without careful studies and breakthroughs post-board? I often observe that decks like zoo can really give this deck a run for its money without the speed buff provided by draw spells. Plus, when your graveyard gets hit, draw spells help you recover faster; this IMO is very important post-board, definitely more important than being able to have bloodghasts online.
@sunshine: It [Bloodghast] helps against the combo match-up because it helps me combo-out faster. It also helps me against zoo and merfolk. It's a big help in grinding out games against them because often they can't handle too many threats attacking on my side.
@Yawg: Breakthrough, is a speed buff, if it resolves, good blue players are always looking to smother a breakthrough attempt. We bait them into misplaying their counters by baiting studies and therapy. Studies are very important to this deck because it is so versatile. It draws, dredges and discards. It is a good bait card for counters, if they counter it you get to resolve an outlet or breakthrough, if they don't you get to dredge or draw, either way, your position in the game improves. It dredges enough to improve your game state.
@Bryant: Against non-blue you could try -1 Breakthrough -1 Careful Study -1 Dread Return -2 DR targets for 5 slots. Against blue you could take out all breakthroughs, -1 Dread Return, and -2 Targets for 6-7 slots depending on your list.
Do we need to Chain-Dredge game 2&3?
G2/3 is all about slowdredge IMO, so I board out BT most of the time [you don't board it out against Combo]...
We lose a bit ChainDredging, what's IMO not needed against Zoo, because we have more ways to generate Tokens, and a faster DR with Ghasts, also...
I agree with the fact, that game 2&3 CS is better than BT.
I can follow your logic, that I could play CS over BT because I'll win game 1 anyways, and strength the other 2 games.
BUT look at my BG List above... look how tight it is... In 90% of the time, I board out BT... if the BT would be CS, I'd board out CS, because this would still be my worst card in the 60s...
So If I nearly always board out the 4 cards in this 4 slots [regardless if it is CS or BT], than it is logical, that I play with the card, who is better in G1 isn't it?
YawG
I don't think it's correct to always (or often) board out those four slots if they are CS though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
If you feel comfortable winning game 1 without those four slots - why not just run your Chains, or other DR targets, main and free up some more SB space?
Granted it helps against combo and is good against zoo and merfolk in the first game. We'll have to see how much of a presence combo is after the banning of Mystical Tutor is felt by the format. For Zoo and Merfolk I don't believe a resolved Breakthrough is going to put you far enough past where a resolved CS would to justify the fact that one is a liability post board.Quote:
Originally Posted by bum_man
By saying not dredging/chain dredging fast enough, i meant how often you dredge cards into your graveyard per turn, do you think a maximum of 6 per turn is enough. My point being, having to dredge more cards earlier in the game finds you more business cards like therapies, ichorids, narcs, ghats and bridges earlier, which puts you in a better game state earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
I guess this is a matter of playstyle post-board? So does that mean you've never encountered a situation in games 2 & 3 where a speed buff from BT or CS would've been relevant, either to help you win earlier or win a game that you lost?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
Sorry for the confusion, I wasn't able to type it but I was referring to Bloodghast in my previous post and not Breakthrough. @_@Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshine
sometimes, when I know that my opponent has no hate in hand, and he won't find hate in the next turn... sure I wish for a speed buff then... [I leave BTs in against combo anyway, because Speed is important here] but all in all, speedbuff is not relevant enough without FKZ...
Some people are so retarded, that they overboard against dredge, and IMO it's enough in G2 & 3 to slowroll the deck...
If I go for BT, dredge half my deck, can win my next turn, and they topdeck Crypt/Relic whatever... I have just lost, beause I throw my hand away... just like LED... CS is clearly better here, but like I said before... If this slots were replaced by CS, I don't know what I should board out, if not these...
...sure, we could build an very strong BG-Dredge with Studies, and BTs but It would be 12 Land then, and very very much relying on DDD I don't think, that is the right way to go... but I am pretty sure that BGs are the way to go...
Hi all! First post etc.
I recently got myself back to magic, got a ledless dredge deck and now it's time to take it for a spin. I'll play in a tournament at a generic rpg/anime convention (here in Finland) next weekend, and expect the metagame to be mostly fish/zoo with random beats and tier 1 decks being at the minority. I'll write a report when it's done!
My main board in very limited playtesting has been:
4 GGT
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge
4 Narcomoeba
2 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel
I'm thinking I should probably play some darkblasts main since I'm expecting so many creatures. For sideboard I currently have:
4 Grudge
4 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Iona
1 Terastodon
1 Ancestor's Chosen
I have access to Ray of Revelation, Wispmare, Needle, Darkblast, Leyline etc almost all the good options too, and most useful DR targets. I'm thinking Firestorms would be nice against zoo and fish to clear their board and as uncounterable/unkillable discard outlets (in place of some/all Pimps). Chosen for Zoo to buy some time. How about Cabal Therapy, how useful is it against Zoo?
I'm not sure about Iona for fish and random 1 colour decks, are Grave-Trolls generally enough there? I don't think there will be much Iona hate around. Naturally Vapors/Grudges depending what kind of hate they are bringing. Maybe I should include couple dedicated anti enchantment slots too. I think Crypt/Relic will be way most used anti GY hate, but some of the better decks will probably play Wheel and Leyline too.
Out I will be siding Breakthroughs almost every match, mostly for Grudges/Vapors to deal with hate. Then the more specific answers, some Pimps -> some Firestorms, maybe an Ichorid into the dedicated DR target.
Any comments? Mostly I'd like to hear your ideas about the Darkblasts and SB plans, since those are what I have played with the least.
I'm not shooting down the idea of bloodghast I just don't know if there is room,
Cards that shouldn't be less than a 4 of;
Cabal Therapy
Putrid Imp
Tireless Tribe
Careful Study
Ichorid
Bride from below
Narcomeba
Golgari Grave-Troll
Stinkweed Imp
Breakthrough(or another draw spell)
Thats 40 cards that IMHO NEED to be of's.
with 13-14 lands and 11-12 dredgers that comes to minimal 56 cards needed md.
The last 4 spot's I always go with 2 dread returns and 2 targets.
I'll post more later but I got stuff to do.