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Personally, I still like crusher. It's not so much his size but the fact that he filters you to live draws every turn that makes him good. Revealing your first draw is also nice when you have a Loam and/or Bob active. He also doesn't care about Deathrite or Ooze or really anything short of RiP/Leyline.Quote:
Originally Posted by markkugel
Kind of like a sylvan library that can't draw you into the toolboxiest part of your deck? :p
Technically he puts the lands right where you want him right? So if he reveals like 3 lands and then a loam, you basically drew 4 cards that turn and +4+4'd your man? Man I miss crusher. Nothing like attacking for 15 while still advancing your game plan.
I'm not telling I dont like Crusher. In fact, I like it more than KotR. But beig able to get BB and RR isnt that easy.
This why I put my playset of Crusher on the side and instead sleeve KotR. And while I was thincking of "less red" in my deck, I'm asking myself how the deck is without red at all ? Does someone have already tested Aggro Loam without Punishing Fire and those groove that mess the manabase, but with for exemple Vindicate in these slots ?
Something like :
Artifact (8)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
Creature (12)
4x Dark Confidant
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Tarmogoyf
Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library
Instant (4)
4x Abrupt Decay
Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil
Sorcery (8)
2x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Life from the Loam
3x Vindicate
Land (24)
2x Barren Moor
3x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
3x Windswept Heath
I think what you mean is that BB and RR and GW and BW isn't so easy. BB and RR are pretty doable with Mox/Loam/Fetches. Taiga/Badlands/Mox can cast my whole deck.
Got first in an 10 man tourney this weekend with the following list:
61 cards
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Pack Rat
1 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun Zenith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Barren Moor
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Taiga
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Bayou
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
Sideboard:
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Chains of Mephsitopheles
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Slaughter Games
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
I finally attempted to run Pack Rat, as it's sinergy with Punishing Fire, Loam and extra chalices is pretty great, however by the end of the day I think i took out the wrong card in order to fit it (the 3rd Punishing Fire, and the 61th card slot for the two copies) - will probably put the 3rd fire back, and take Tarmogoyf out the next time. I've actually lost a match for having a pack rat stuck in my hand when I needed a Punishing Fire to deal with a delver.
On with the matches!
Round 1 - RW Imperial Painter
G1 - I can't recall much of this match, except that I used a lot of the Loam engine with extra draws with cycle lands and wastelocking him to a couple of basic mountains.
G2 - I keep a hand with no beaters, but a lot os answers. He's on the play and plays land - welder, go. My turn I play 2 moxes and a wasteland, and play a Sylvan Library. I still have Golgari Charm in my hand. His turn he plays Revoker and targets my moxes, and in a misplay I use my waste on his plateau. My turn I play a Tranquil Ticket and pass. He plays a Sol land and Imperial recruiter, searching for Magus of the Moon, and starts to beat me up. In my top I have punishing fire, abrupt decay and a bayou. I pay four and draw both p.fire and the bayou, and play the bayou. His turn he plays magus of the moon, and in response I go for Golgari Charm, destroying Recruiter, Revoker and Welder, and then with the now active Moxes, I kill magus with p.fire. Next turn I get a reliquary and beat him down. Win.
Round 2 - Manaless Dredge.
G1 - It's my brother so I know what deck he's on. I mulligan to four in order to try to get a scavenging ooze, or green sun zenith, but neither pop up and I keep a hand with 2 manas, bob and removal. I still lose pretty badly.
G2 - I sideboard all four leylines and get one in a pretty bad hand, which I keep nonetheless. It's basically 3 removals, 3 lands and leyline hand, except I draw lands for another 7 turns, while he slow plays just to make me mad haha. Eventually after he FOWing 2 bobs, I hit a 13/13 reliquary on him win the game.
G3 - I get leyline on my hand again and a hand with beaters, so I just easily win this one. Win
Round 3 - UWR Delver
G1 - We start pretty well, with me using a lot of the loam engine and a Chalice for one. I have a couple removals which i use on 3 of his delvers, but then he plays TNN. I have tons of lands in my GY so after I play reliquary he puts TNN on wall of death mode, so the game stalls forever. With reliquary in I get a grove of the burnwillows and start firing him down, until I draw a second Knight and he gives up, 30 minutes in. i really wish I'd run Dark Depths at this point.
G2 - I lose pretty badly not having access to a removal. I get 2 bobs and the loam engine, but he soon runs Rest in Piece and I have to deal with both TNN and Delver. I get a liliana but by this time it's too late. During the mid time of this game, I have Pack Rat in my hand and I really wished it was the Punishing Fire that gave his place.
G3 - i start pretty well with Gaddock and Reliquary both coming into game, but we have 5 minutes. I have no removals, but I have Ancient Grudge and Golgari Charm so I'm pretty confident with this.. however he starts making quite the table, consistently playing Stoneforge after stoneforge, and delvers. I only start attacking after I search for Maze of Ith so that it can work well with reliquary, and we're pretty much at the five turns. We get a draw.
So yeah, pretty much fun time. i wish there were more rounds so that I could at least play Pack Rat and test it's effectiveness.
Notes to self - Put the 3rd Punishing Fire back in. Goyf out. And see if I can get me a copy of Dark Depths + Thespian Stage.. probably going in the place of two of the cycle lands.
Has anyone playing 4c loam played / tested the 12post (U/G) matchup and if so what were the results?
I've played it a bit. Can't say I have too much insight tho. The thing that stands out to me from those matches is the need for pressure. Playing the control/prison deck didn't work for me at all. Game is more or less over if a titan resolves. There is a skill to playing against that deck much like there is a skill to playing against dredge G1.
Seems like burning wish fell out of favor - too slow?
The burning wish versions were GRbw while the BOM-inspired versions are GBwr.
There is only so much room for colors.
Not to say one version is better than another, but the BOM version has had the most recent success.
I still play burning wish and find it is still worth the slot.
Burning wish is one of those cards that has inspired debate since it was put in the list
I feel Burning Wish a bit too slow. You aren't usually able to cast your wished card the same turn you wished for :/Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
I used to run the card in a rogue brew of Sneak Attack.. RW deck. It was great when I could cast Burning Wish and the toolbox card/Show and Tell in the same turn but generally otherwise it would be enough time for my opponent to find an answer.
However I'm pretty sure most builds of Loam has the means to pull this off with all the moxes and Loams (protecting from wastelands). I haven't tested though as I only started playing the deck after the BOM9 list popped up.
So Richard can correct me if I'm wrong (since he has been on this thread since the beginning of time) but Burning Wish has been called a slow card way before it saw play in the "old" 4 color loam deck, like before Knight was played in the deck.
I'll speak briefly about the card for those who have not played with it.
The contents of my Wishboard are:
Reverent Silence - naturalizes counterbalances, blood moons, and sometimes sneak attacks
Shattering spree - kills batterskulls and the like through chalice, sometimes through countermagic
Life From the Loam - flexibility to work with as many as 7 copies and as few as 3
Tariff - an edict for emrakul and TNN. Best non-black option
Councils Judgement - good catch-all removal
Pyroclasm - boardwipes are good
Devastating Dreams - scalable boardwipe, LD for those basics, etc
Flex
This is not the most robust wishboard and actually most of the good wishboard cards are black.
The mean cost to cast these cards is 2. Burning wish is 2 mana. Getting to 4 mana to cast wish and one of these on turn 3 requires only that I have one of my 2 GSZ on turns 1 or 2 or that I have one of my 4 mox diamonds on turn 1,2, or 3. And this is much less of a problem when you are in the midgame and have a developed manabase.
I rarely have to wish and cast the spell in separate turns, altho it is often a good idea to do so against delver.
It is certainty a slow card, but so is jace and demonic tutor :p.
This deck has big problems when it does not draw answers to resolved permanents. There are only so many answers that are live in all matchups. One of the reasons that blue is such a good color in legacy is that it offers the most consistency with brainstorm and friends. GSZ, KotR, and Burning Wish are our consistency cards.
Until they print a split card that is naturalize//life from the loam//vindicate//edict//etc I think there is a lot of benefit to playing this card
Council's judgement is actually also an out to emrakul...Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
Thanks for making me feel old!Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
Anyway, Wish is really a double-edged sword. On the one hand, you get a bunch of silver bullet answers and a virtual 6-7 copies of Loam in the deck. On the other hand, you're reducing the chance of naturally drawing Loam by a significant amount and opening yourself up a lot more to counters. In the end, it may just be a meta call. When Spell Snare was everywhere, Wish was more of a liability than anything. Now you don't see Snare as much (would not be surprised if that changes), but you do see Pierce everywhere, which could be just as bad.
The main reason I wouldn't bother with it now is that the maindeck answers have gotten so versatile. Abrupt Decay and Liliana deal with so much random shit used to be troublesome, it's just harder to justify having a bunch of silver bullets now.
Interestingly, I think you could make a similar case for/against Living Wish in this deck.
The only white cards I see are teeg, vindicate, and KotR. You could realistically drop white altogether by going -4 KotR, -3 Vindicate, -1 Teeg, +4 Crusher, +3 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 some utility card of some kind. Or splash just teeg as that doesn't really strain the manabase at all to add in one plateau or savannah.Quote:
Originally Posted by markkugel
Wish is just way too slow and vulnerable. It's bad against thoughtseize/pinpoint discard, pierce, and any sort of reasonable clock and makes your sideboard a lot worse when you have to dedicate more than 1/3rd of your board to it pretty much. I've only ever been a fan of wish way back in 2008 when the format was a lot slower but nowadays? I would never run it. Same with chalice of the void, as chalice on the draw is awful and the issue is compounded by this decks inability to cast it for 1 on turn 1 short of you drawing mox diamond as well and mox diamond is really the best card in this deck at we need the acceleration in order to keep up with other legacy decks.
Crusher doesn't tutor any land like a Karakas to fight showand tell decks. KOTR is amazing for his ability, not just his P/T. White bringing teeg as well is awesome
It's like playing against a combo deck, a normal game plan doesn’t really work, but we do have specific bombs that wreak them.Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
A lock with Wasteland and Loam, preferably with an Abrupt Decay for their Needle is ideal.
Just keep in mind that they can Crop Rotate into Bojuka Bog.
Even though they hardcast Eldrazi, they’re highly susceptible to Chalice for 1.
If they Show & Tell in a Eldrazi you better have Karakas or a Knight.
If it’s a Primetime then Lilly edict. Even if the Knights are big enough to block and kill the Titan, the land ramping from entering the battlefield and attacking once is almost certainly too much.
With all that said, I’m not sure if it’s a favorable or unfavorable matchup, I haven’t played against it enough, perhaps 6-7 times. The feeling I got is if we have Loam, Wasteland and Chalice it’s favorable, and if we don’t it’s unfavorable as we can’t really compete with the end game that 12post has.
How do people feel about Maze of Ith these days? I have not used it much at all recently.
It more or less has 2 uses:
The first is the KotR vigilance trick. When it naturally happens it is usually okay. I used to take a turn off from attacking to get it, back when I started playing ... but these days if I'm not attacking that turn I'm fetching Depths or stage.
As a piece of removal, I personally have been using barbarian ring for small guys and Karakas for big ones, maze usually being just worse than either. It notably does not help against TNN and Emrakul.
I am probably going back to 4 colors (GBwr) soon so I'll lose barbarian ring, but there will be more pressure on the manabase and better removal.
While I still got to try a build with Depths (mine on the way to Brazil from ebay), you are still forgetting important roles, which is in the fair matchups. It will stall batterskulls and Delvers, and whoever you can't block that isn't named TNN or Emrakul.