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Alright it makes sense too. It seems like a good option, but maybe better against Reanimate than Dredge. Would you consider Seal of Doom in the Buried Alive list for the supporting Bayous?Quote:
Originally Posted by theross
Worth playing this type of cards if we keep seeing more and more Reanimate?
Once you're in black, Nihil Spellbomb is the way to go. The cantrip will help mitigate having to take out parts of the combo.
Why the hell would you be splashing Nihil Spellbomb when Scavenging Ooze exists tailor made for this deck?
Having a tutorable g/y nuker is much better than having a cantripping crypt. The matchups where you need to exile g/y far outweigh the 2ndary use of cycling for :1::b:.
Ooze is probably worth it as a tutor target, but he won't be enough against dredge, and Reanimator can easily answer him with a Pithing Needle so you need something else. Since many lists already have black in them for Cabal Therapy, Buried Alive, etc, it makes sense that Spellbomb be played.
I'm not entirely sold on Ooze in the first place, since he requires a hefty mana commitment and the use of a tutor. Given that Elves is nearly as fast as Reanimator and Dredge in the first place, it makes more sense to just race them in many situations. Nihil Spellbomb is much more mana efficient while not interfering as much with the combo since it cantrips.
Spellbomb is just as answerable with Pithing Needle as Ooze. Reanimator is a tough matchup indeed, but how likely will it become that Reanimator boards into Pithing Needle against us G2? What about G3? Most likely the result will be that they will get Elesh Norn reanimated, and we won't stand a chance to recover. This matchup is not worth sideboarding for IMO, and should be attributed as an auto-loss. Ooze is still useful in other matchups, such as against Dredge, were they actually can't stop him outside of a well timed Firestorm.
Ooze is also good against Life from the Loam decks, where Spellbomb is just a one-time kill switch. They must answer Ooze, or risk losing. Spellbomb costing 1 mana is a liability against the Chalice builds of Aggro Loam. Ooze, not so much.
Ooze also shrinks Goyfs, KotR, and provides life gain against the occasional Zoo/Burn matchups.
I'm aware Spellbomb can be stopped with needle, hence why I noted that using the two in concert would be ideal. However, if one lacks the space for this many cards against Dredge/Reanimator, Spellbomb is certainly more efficient, and thus should be the choice. Ooze is not very effective against dredge, since it costs so much mana to actually use, and many lists are already bringing in Firestorm in the matchup. It's also worth noting that this deck does not want to sideboard many cards in any matchup so it maintains the same fundamental turn so perhaps just a couple Spellbombs and the one Ooze is correct.
On Reanimator being "un-winnable:" No matchup should be thought of this way for a deck that can win on turns 2-4.
On the Loam matchup: Given that you don't want to play a long game against this deck, the one time kill switch is more effective, since it will give you the time you need to win for only 2 mana and without costing you a card. Chalice is simply an issue you must deal with anyway, so I fail to see how that point is relevant.
These other fringe applications of Ooze are not nearly enough to bring it in in any applicably matchups, so again I see this as irrelevant.
Naturally we want to, and are capable of going off against a slow draw from Reanimator. That's never been the issue. The issue is of timing and beating the resolved fattie. Elesh Norn is unbeatable unless we start running Living Wish (Karakas) - which even I am hesitant in this new metagame. Ooze plays perfectly in this deck, as we're bound to make a ton of green mana to nuke any size g/y with ease.
This is what i'm running lately, and has been great so far:
5 Forest
2 Bayou
7 fetch
3 Gaea's Cradle
5 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Ranger
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Priest of Titania
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Regal Force
1 Emrakul
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Summoner's Pact
Sideboard
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Vengevine
3 Krosan Grip
2 Mortarpod
1 Scavenging Ooze
If you're making enough green mana to eat their graveyard, you should just be winning the game. Ooze is also quite slow given how you are judging the speed of Reanimator. Best case scenario you have turn 1 mana elf into turn 2 GSZ so you can't disrupt them until turn 3. I'd much rather try and disrupt them with Therapy and as I noted earlier, Ooze is not as effective as Spellbomb against Dredge.
On your list: Cutting Q Rangers and still playing multiple lords seems suspect, as does playing less than 4 Vengevine without a mass tutor. The rest of it looks fine.
Between Therapy, Thoughtseize, Mortarpod, and Ooze; there should be enough disruption against Dredge. Therapy especially is great against Bridges when they get slow draws, and Mortarpod is actually the insane. No jokes I discounted when I first saw it in lists, but it's been performing well in so many matchups. My favorite has been show-boating by equiping Emrakul, then saccing it to shuffle it back in, then draw some more cards with Glimpse and cast it again. Infinite loop? Perhaps. :D
Went to FNM tonight, was about 12 people I think. Round 1 I lost to some..awkward form of Landstill + Aggro Loam? It was a landstill deck that packed 2-4 diabolic edicts and 2-4 innocent bloods, 2-4 pernicious deeds and 2-4 maelstrom pulses. I don't know exact quantities but I was hit with enough of them to choke a goat out.
So, round 1 as per usual: die to massive amounts of creature removal and counterspells.
Round 2 was against affinity, I lose due to a stupid play game 1 where I go off at 5 health, forget he has a disciple on the board, swing for -way- more than lethal with emrakul, he sacs 6 artifacts and I die. Game 2 and 3 went something like > Engineered explosives at 1, spend turns dealing with it while he lands a cranial and gets me. Game 2 I had to wish for zealot, play zealot, then sac zealot, since I didn't draw any lands I was working off 2 and didn't want to drop any 1 drops because that'd just give him an out. Game 3 went similar.
Round 3 I played against a bad goblin deck, I win game 1 because he blocks poorly and didn't realize that nettle sentinels were 2/2's. Game 2 I lose because a sharpshooter hits the table when I don't have a lord down and wipes my board. Game 3 I win because I just pump lords out and they can't really do much about that without good spot removal.
I'm having an unbelievably hard time dealing with..anything of a remotely good quality deck. It's troublesome having to deal with the fact that elves is the only combo that's hateable by virtually all angles: discards wrecks us, spot removal wrecks us, mass removal wrecks us, and counters wreck us (kind of). Generally every deck runs some combination of these and we have no options to stop it.
Maybe I'm just playing in a terrible meta for it, but every deck of good quality I run into has -more- than enough removal or counters or both to deal with elves. One game I literally got hit by 2 diabolic edicts, 2-3 innocent bloods, 3 pernicious deeds, and a maelstrom pulse, on top of the FOW's and missteps that hit me that I don't recall how many. And then I got jace'd to death.
@Ruckus: I find it hard to believe that it's optimal to bring in that many cards in any matchup, let alone Dredge, a resilient combo deck that requires one to enter a race.
@Kich867: Decks with that much removal require the Vengevines in the board. Spot removal becomes much less effective against a horde of recurring 4/3s.
lool im sorry man, but that was just.....the only possible word to describe it is 'rape'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
Today i got totally destroyed by a MBC, in a similar way: 2 Infest, 1 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Despise, 1 Damnation, 2 Go for the Throat, 3 Doom Blade, 2 Geth's Veredict.....And died to a single mishra's factory. I wont be playing elves again for a long time. Its powerfull, but easy to disrupt.
It's not a fault of the deck when one loses to someone having an overload of removal. Sometimes you just don't win.
As far as the deck being "easy to disrupt" I must disagree completely. From the moment I started testing, I found the deck to be incredibly resilient when piloted correctly. (Which I admittedly did not come close to for about 2 weeks) My faith was shaken after the spoiling of Mental Misstep but to my surprise, even a card that seemed tailor made to beat Elves did not help decks like Merfolk and Bant nearly enough. It is true that the MD is not built to withstand an onslaught of creature removal from various board control decks but the matchup is not impossible if played conservatively since they must respect your explosiveness or die holding multiple wraths. Vengevines help immensely in post board games in these matches as well.
I find that people actually don't have to respect the explosiveness so long as they kill your turn 1-2 drops. If your first elf is countered it can set you back several turns, especially if you miss the third turn land drop. I've even held it until I had a full hand, went to go nuts, in response to my heritage druid (played third to hopefully bait something out of the first two since my board was cleared) they remove an elf and then from there it's usually game.Quote:
Originally Posted by theross
If your solution to mass spot/board removal is to sideboard in buried alives, cabal therapies, and vengevines your solution to mass removal is to not play elf combo.
Given how you wrote your last remarks, "...your solution to mass removal is to not play elf combo", you don't seem to get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
That's the point of the sideboard, you can transform into a build that's resilient to mass-removal. By doing so you're less-reliant on the combo portion of the deck....in which the combo portion is harder to pull off against such mass removal...but the added buried alive/vengevine plan will be almost as effective here and gives you an actual way to win the game through mass removal.
Glimpse is still a great card after boarding as such.
When transforming, I almost never bring in the Therapies, as that would require taking too much of the combo out. I simply bring out Pacts, most of the 1ofs, and the 2nd Regal Force. This leaves all the essential pieces of the combo intact except Emrakul, which is unnecessary since you just play 4 Vengevines and pass the turn with a full grip to recur them. It's still a combo deck, but the traditional glimpse combo is plan B.
Hi all,
I don't post a lot, but this seemed like the wisest thread based on my build. I'm aware that the version I currently run isn't the coolest, but seeing as how I have just started to play again I figured I'd keep those interested in combo elves informed.
Here's my current build:
14 Forest
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Priest of Titania
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Nettle Sentinel
3 Joraga Warcaller
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Quiron Ranger
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Hurricane
SB:
4 Root Maze
3 Thorn of Amythest
3 Krosan Grip
2 Staff of Domination
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Progenitus
It's a little more Aggro/Combo than straight Combo, which I'm sure explains why I don't combo out as quickly or as regularly. But it's also a newer deck to me. As to the SB, i know, it's whack. I had Progenitus in the main in the first tourney I played two weeks ago, but I drew him in several opening hands which made him way lame. I like the Vengevine plan but as you'll see below, diapers come before cardboard. Unless they're cardboard diapers.....
Okay, results:
First Round against a U/r Wizard deck. Not much to say, I never went off but just aggro'd him by the fourth or fifth turn. 1-0/2-0
Second Round against a guy who took third, I think. It was a W/B Stoneforge Mystic/Mirrodin Crusader deck with Jitte. Both games he laid a turn 1 Mystic and a turn 2 Jitte. Ugly. 1-1/2-2
Third Round, against another Stoneforge Mystic deck, but this guy was running a W/g version. I rolled him the first game with a third turn Warcaller pumped up x5. The second game he landed an Ethersworn Canonist which tied me up, but he could only follow up with a few KotRs. He landed a Jitte but couldn't equip, next turn I was able to hardcast Emrakul, I swung taking him to 1, then Hurricaned him for the rest. 2-1/4-2
Fourth Round was a U/G/r jumble with NO, I'm sure it's cool and has a name, but like I said, I just started playing again after a year and half off, so I don't know. First game I whooped him and thought it was gonna be easy riding to the Top 8. But the next two games he was able to drop a third turn NO into a Progenitus. Not cool, no easy riding. 2-2/5-4
This was a 20 person tourney or so, went 2-2 and ended up in 9th. Not too impressive, I know, but apart from a weak SB I can truthfully say I don't have a lot of experience piloting this. It's a blast to play, though. I played the last round for a shot at the top 8 (would have been in 4th with a win). I would love to run some NO of my own, as well as Gaea's Cradles, but having just started playing again I'm looking to trade for them, not blow diaper money on them. I'm sure there'll be some critiques about my build; I welcome them, but don't be a douche, I like Magic and have been playing on and off since Revised, but have a life and a family that comes first.
Also, please keep up the good work in this thread, took me a long time to read the whole thing but it's focused and to the point with improving Combo Elves, which is appreciated.
Edit: I used to run a few Birchlore Rangers and a Banefire in place of Hurricane, would consider going back to that. Hurrican does have the downside of killing both of us. but I have also drawn a few games with it when i was down and out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
You're right, in testing Thoughtseize is less than optimal against Dredge. This makes only 6 cards that would be boarded in: 3 Cabal Therapy, 2 Mortarpod, and 1 Scavenging Ooze. To make room for this, I would cut 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Llanowar Elves, 1 Priest of Titania, 1 Elvish Archdruid, 1 Summoner's Pact, and 1 Heritage Druid.Quote:
Originally Posted by theross
The plan isn't so much cemented, as it is removing some of the slower cards to make room for more disruption. Summoner's Pact is useful in comboing out, but not otherwise, and hence less useful after sideboarding. Therapy provides a way to kill their Breakthroughs/Careful Studies, and as a sac outlet to remove Bridges. It's very likely that it's not fast enough to matter against Bridges, but better than the alternative Thoughtseize.
What are others plan for sideboarding this matchup?
In the list you posted above Ruckus, I would bring in the Ooze and a single Mortarpod for a Birchlore Rangers and the Viridian Shaman, no real need to dilute your deck for more than that. Even the Mortarpod may be too much although if they have Iona it's fairly important to keep them off of Bridge from Below tokens to make Dread Return worse.
What is the name of guy who made top15 at Grand Prix Providence??? HE does any report or somthing similar?