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Guys do you think that becasue of recent wins of burn (and all the hype going on) we should expect more burn (witch i think is good for monoR) and more hate against red (which is bad for us)? Or should we expect countertop comeback (which again is cool) or more combo (which again is bad).
I've found Thorn to be better than Trap in my own testing/matches against storm decks. Trap only works once, and only if they aren't expecting it/aren't a good player. After that they will always Duress or Chant you before they go off.Quote:
Originally Posted by trivial_matters
Thorn also gets bonus points in my book for being good in other non-storm match-ups like Burn and similar decks. Trap is really only useful against storm.
The "best" hate for combo in general is still probably Chalice @ 1.
@liamb: I don't think people will increase their hate for "red". We might see a rise in control decks (either blue or black)...but a more controlling meta is generally a good thing for aggro players. Like always, time will tell.
Cheers guys, what about pyrostatic pillar v ANT? i tried traps but they didn't work as were duressed. the 4 COV on their own didn't seem enough. I may check out thorns but ANT could go off before i've mana to cast them. only got 1 chrome mox to speed up mana. Need a red dark ritual to be printed! Thanks for advice.
Won 31ppl tournament with this list:
4 wasteland
4 wooded foothills
4 scalding tarn
3 rishadan port
2 taiga
5 mountain
4 aether vial
4 goblin lackey
3 mogg fanatic
4 mogg war marhall
3 goblin piledriver
1 tin street hooligan
1 stingscourger
4 goblin matron
4 goblin chieftain ´
4 gempalm incinerator
1 goblin sharpshooter
4 goblin ringleader
1 siege-gang commander
Sb:
1 tuktuk scrapper
2 pyroblast
3 krosan grip
3 pyrokinesis
2 blood moon
1 tormod's crypt
3 relic of progenitus
rounds:
2-1 team america
2-0 aluren
2-0 uw blade
ID
ID
top8:
2-1 UBR delver
2-0 affinity
2-0 punishing maw
I'm pretty satisfied with this decklist, every card in seems to deserve its place. Not sure about sideboard.
Congratulations on your finish.
- How does the deck feel without Goblin Warchief?
- Did you miss the 2nd Siege-Gang Commander?
- How come a 31 ppl tournament had only 5 swiss rounds?
In which matchups was Mogg Fanatic relevant?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri8
That would also be interesting to me. I tried him and was in so many risky situations against Stoneforge.. that's why Tarfire is my weapon of choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
Another question is whether it is really useful to splash green just for one hooligan MD and 3 Grips SB. Did you face early artifacts that really were a threat that couldn't be prevented by beating their probable targets with burn (e.g. swords)? Or even enchantments?
2012-02-11 I went to the tourney from our local legacy league cycle. 17 people attended and me piloting slightly modified Scatman-X list:
17 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Goblin Piledriver
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Tarfire
4 Warren Instigator
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Stingscourger
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Boartusk Liege
RD 1: Goblin mirror (my opponent plays “classic” Rb list and his final result was 10 pts and 4th place).
He won the die roll but he quickly lost due my better removal package (4 tarfire). G2 he managed to stabilize with 3 (!) Vials. G3 I kept rather controlish hand with 2 tarfires, 1 gamepalm, vial and mountains which was very good decision.
On play: -2 tuktuk, +1 Tinkerer. +1 boartusk
On draw: -1 tuktuk, -1 vial, +1 Tinkerer. +1 boartusk
Record 1-0 (2-1)
RD2: Burn (with maindeck fallouts)
I lost G1 with him drawing the nuts and fallout. I won quite long G2 with him behind the ensnaring bridge which surprise me a lot because I sided out my artifact removal. Game ended when he had two life and I topdecked barbarian ring like a champ. G3 was blowout. He drew the nuts and even my good hand couldn’t save me.
On play: - 4 vial, -2 tuktuk, +3 chalice, +1 boartusk, + 2 stingscourger (which was mistake – stingscourger do absolutely nothing against burn – what was I thinking?)
On draw: -4 vial, +3 chalice, +1 boartusk (this is correct choice)
Record 1-1 (3-3)
RD3: Punishing Maverick
I lost G1. And same truth was for G2. Couldn’t do anything (I did remove jitte, batterscull, MoR and even Pun-fire G2 but it was not enough)
On play: -2 Vial, -1 Piledriver, -1 lackey, -1 WI, +3 Macabre +2 sting. I don’t know if it was correct choice. Macabre did remove his Pun-fire but he managed to stabilize with KotR. Maybe Blood Moon would be better choice?
Record 1-2 (3-5)
RD4: Merfolks
Ease. Even though he managed to win G2.
On play: -2 tuktuk, -1 WI, +1 tinkerer, +1 reb, +1 pyro
On draw: -2 tuktuk, -1 vial, +1 tinkerer, +1 reb, +1 pyro
Record 2-2 (5-6)
RD5: GWu Maverick (well it was something between FoW-less aggro bant and Maverick)
G1: He won. G2: I won really quick one. G3 I played blood moon and lock him completely but he had KotR and Goyf and I didn’t drew single stingscourger.
On play: -1 pile, -1 WI, -1 lackey, -1 chief, -1 vial,+3 Blood Moon, +2 Sting
On draw: -1 pile, -1 WI, - 1 chief, -2 vial, +3 Blood Moon, +2 Sting
Record 2-3 (6-8)
Even though my negative result I felt quite comfortable with this list. I think that my loses were mostly because of some sideboard choices and well… lack of luck :wink:. I’m still not convinced about faerie macabre – Relic of Progenitus would probably won me games against Pun-Maverick and RD5. Also I was suggested to try Magus of the Moon in main with my build which I think is interesting idea. So I will maybe try:
Main: -1 piledriver, -1 WI, +2 Magus of the Moon
SB: -3 Faerie Macabre, -1 Stingscourger, +4 Relic of Progenitus (I think that because lots of 1-CMC spells in my 75 i should switch 3 Chalice of the Void
with 3 Thorn the Amethyst)
Off the top of my head there are at least two matchups in which Mogg Fanatic is a relevant card: Elves and Dredge.
I didn't miss him at all, chieftain improves your boardstate, but warchief improves your hand(cheeper matrons and ringleaders) and since i play lower curve (11 one drops, 9 two drops) and more aggro chieftain's bonus seems better to me...Quote:
Originally Posted by Annatar
One siege-gang si enough for me, never actually wanted to draw second one this tournament and even if I play only one, I dropped him two times in second turn by lackey(out of 3 or 4 hits that day). That card just comes when iI need it :)
Six rounds are with 33 and more people I think...
Mogg fanatic shined aganist: team america (killing bob), delver deck(again killing bob (which won me game) and delver), affinity (killing pest with plates) and mawerick(killed at least 3 mana dorks and matron during two matches), other then that he is good in attacknig(compared to tarfire(better synergy with chieftain)) and blocking (batterskull, jitte etc).
Hooligan and K.grips save from from jitte and batterskull in UW blade matchup, plates in affinity and plagues in devler deck. They are probably not needed, but since I have two taigas and fetches I play them...
I see people post lists with 2 or less Piledrivers and I just don't get it. If you go so low on Piledrivers, the deck loses it's explosiveness and you're just too slow against anything!
Piledriver is a great card in the right meta.
He's not that great when your opponent will just block with a Batterskull (killing your piledriver), gain 4 life, bounce the equipment, and replay it.
I've been testing something similar to ScatmanX's list and it is very strong against Stoneforge Mystic based decks. It is very satisfying to Tarfire the Mystic right away or use Tuktuk Scrapper on the equipment they found. I've completely cut Goblin Piledriver at this point and I don't miss it yet. I've been testing Goblin Bushwhacker as a two-of with mixed results.
I'm testing Sensei's Devining Top on those 2 slots... =]Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
How do you guys feel about the combo matchup? I've done a lot of testing with many different lists, and the only time I thought I had a real fighting chance was when I played 2x Chrome Mox and had the ability to cast Chalice @ 1 on turn 1. Since then, I decided to dedicate 0 sb slots to it and hope to outrace them or just not play them.
I've tested variations of ScatmanX's list and am a big fan of it. Congrats on the wins guys!
I think 1 Piledriver is too few: sometimes it gets discarded or Spell Snared early and then you lose that "I Win" button later in the game. I feel safer with 2. I find he's a lot more relevant than Warchief, he's just amazing against Merfolk, and Vialing him in can randomly embarass attacking Snapcasters (LOL).
Do you ever find 2 Tuktuk MD is too many? It's such a dead draw against RUG and BUG, and those decks are pretty common. I'm running just the 1 main with a second in the board alongside Tinkerer. Even with the 1 I've been getting awkward dead draws.
I notice you guys are going heavy on the Faerie Macabre for GY hate. What do you do against Goyfs and Knights? Tarfire pumps their Goyf. Gempalm is often not enough to kill either, or involves playing out several Goblins for several turns to get to that point. Stingscourger can only do so much... I've been running a 2/2 split of Faerie and Relic and am really happy with it. I board in Relic vs Maverick, Zoo, Punishing anything, even RUG (and had a RUG player FoW Relic over a Vial!). Most creatures that don't die to Tarfire/Gempalm depend on the graveyard, so I find it complements your removal suite really well.
How useful is that MD Sharpshooter? It's helped me beat rogue decks and I guess it's great in the mirror, but it hasn't done all that much otherwise. Where does it really shine for you guys?
Maxing out on Chieftains has been awesome. I thought I would miss Warchief but have never looked back. Ignoring SB hate like Darkblast and Grim Lavamancer is pretty epic.
What do you guys think of Kiki-Jiki? I've heard the traditional arguments against Kiki - being terrible on an empty board. Well so is Piledriver, but that's never stopped Piledriver from seeing play. And you are far more likely to topdeck Tuktuk when your opponent has no artifacts than you are to topdeck Kiki when you have no board and no hand, yet that doesn't stop Tuktuk from seeing play. Kiki lets you do a lot. You can run only the 1 Tuktuk and still blow up their second and third equipment in game 1. You can randomly Stingscourge-bounce all their Goyfs and Knights and tempo lock them out of the game. You can just win the game with a Matron or Ringleader in play. Kiki has stolen a ton of games for me. I don't like seeing it vs RUG so I board him out, but against arbitrary decks without lots of burn, he just lets you steal games you have no business winning. I think running 4 Lackey + 4 Instigator makes him a lot more playable. He's continually been an MVP for me in testing, although it's possible my playgroup and everyone else I've tested against is just flat out incompetent. Thoughts?
Here's what I've been testing:
Core 20:
4 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
Removal:
4 Tarfire
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingcourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
Other Goblins:
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 flex slot (Sharpshooter/Warchief/SGC?)
Lands:
2 Rishadan Port
16 Mountain
Sideboard:
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pyroblast
2 Blood Moon
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Tinkerer
Most choices are self-explanatory. I board in Stingscourger in matches where Tarfire is bad but I still want removal.
I see so little storm around here that I wonder if it's even worth running any anti-combo slots at all? Have any of you guys had favorable (>40%) matchups post board vs combo? Otherwise I wonder if it wouldn't be better to just use the slots on more Pyroblast and Blood Moon and stomp the main meta decks, letting them knock out combo.
EDIT: Although Thorn should theoretically help against Burn...
@FTW:
- Piledriver is not the best card against both RUG and Maverick, and that's why it was cut. But he is certainly still awesome, so no worries
- 2 Tuktuk have screwed me sometimes, but other times they have won. I played 1 Kiki/1 Tuktuk before, but lost some games to good players, but well, that may be the way to go...
- Faerie Macabre is in there because it's better than Relic against Reanimator, Led Dredge, and PIF/Ill Gotten Gains. A split with Relic is acceptable.
- Sharpshooter shines most against Maverick. Since UW and RUG are as or more popular than it, it was moved to the SB in my list too.
- Kiki it's up to you. some hate him, some love him.
- Your list is awesome. I'd put the 2nd SGC in there.
- If you don't have combo around your place, don't bother with combo-hate. Win all the other matches.
*You're missing 4 Wastes there =])
Check his core =)Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
4 Instigators then =]Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
:] Thanks for the catch. My "instigator plan" was to cheat more goblins into play by running only 56 cards, but somehow I don't think I'll top8 like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
i've been finding that playing the control side of the deck, ports, wastelands, with vials and tempo warchiefs has not been slowing down decks enough. have had problems v ANT, maverick, ichorid. so i tried the mono red build with chieftains and instigators and seemed stronger. so here's my question, if all i play for control is wastelands why not drop aether vial and add 4 more goblins for more aggression as that seems to play better with mono red chieftain instigator builds.
is it good to drop the holy aether vials, have they become too slow in a deck without ports and warchiefs? (can't play 8 colourless mana with warren instigators )
ps the mono red mana base is more stable due to lack of fetchlands to be stifled, but a 2nd question, is it still worth playing fetches for deck thinning in mono red?