[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

Additionally, if you're saving your fetchland to endstep it and fetch your single red source, you're likely not able to use all your cantrips to their maximum potential to set up the kill. Games against D&T can actually take quite awhile unless you draw the nut T1/T2 hand, and I feel like in those scenarios you really want to have access to at least two red lands to get around Wasteland/Port.

Contrast that to matchups where you would prioritize Decay/Swarm such as Miracles or Griselbrand decks, and you'll notice that the single Tropical Island is usually enough.

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Originally Posted by KevinH

Additionally, if you're saving your fetchland to endstep it and fetch your single red source, you're likely not able to use all your cantrips to their maximum potential to set up the kill. Games against D&T can actually take quite awhile unless you draw the nut T1/T2 hand, and I feel like in those scenarios you really want to have access to at least two red lands to get around Wasteland/Port.

Contrast that to matchups where you would prioritize Decay/Swarm such as Miracles or Griselbrand decks, and you'll notice that the single Tropical Island is usually enough.

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In the situations you noted about mass hatebears or needing time against UWx, Decay+Massacre probably serves you better than Decay+Pyroclasm anyway. You wouldn't need to contort around wastleand/port when youre removing at instant speed or using massacre, also, you can cantrip just fine using your basics.

moreover, being able to fetch a bayou against Miracles/Griselbrand is actually pretty relevant, as you can often need black or double black to combo off quickly, and being stuck on tropical island can be a real detriment.

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Originally Posted by Togores

@firefight

Congrats on your result Bro. Semms like the adviced helped you. at least for my part I would have sidebarded completly diferent in some matchups.

R1 Burn
YOU
Sideboard: - 1 Ad Nauseam, -3 Duress, - 1 Preordain, - 1 SDT , + 1 Tendrils of Agony, +3 Abrupt decay, +2 CoV
ME
Sideboard: - 1 Ad Nauseam, -3 Duress, , - 2 SDT , + 1 Tendrils of Agony, +3 Abrupt decay, +2 CoV

You need to move fast, and preordain lets you be faster than sensei.

R2 Miracles

I]Sideboard: - 1 Duress, -1 Cabal Therapy, - 1 Preordain, 1 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Lotus Petal, 1 SDT - , +3 Abrupt decay, +2 XS + 1 FS [/I]
if you wanna board the xantid:
-2 therapy -1 preordain -2 lotus -1 island
+1 tendrills +3 decay +2 xantid

Flsuterstorm is bad against counterbalance
alsoyou can let the therapys there and not board the xantids
You can also side out 2 cabal ritual and board in 2 carpets, depends if they have explosives, rest in pieces and so on.


R3 DEATHBLADE

Sideboard: - 4 Cabal Therapy , - 1 Preordain , -1 Gitaxian + 3 Abrupt decay, + 1 FS + 2 Massacre

Does it had wastelands? more than 2? hymns?

I would never side out discard vs a blue deck if they are not a combo one where I put in xantid.

Also I NEVER EVER EVER BOARD OUT GITAXiAN. The card is just nuts.

Also I only board fluster vs combo decks, storm, elves or show and tell.

-1 preordain -2 petals (low on wasteland)
+3 decay or
-2 petals -1 preordain -1 island (no wasteland)
+2 massacre +2 decay
-2 petals (full wastelands)
+2 massacre

This is never a 100% sb because this kind of decks can change so much.

R4 elves
Sideboard: I expected discard , gaddock or ruric thar, and possible Null Rod , - 1 Preordain, - 3 Duress , -2 Gitaxian - 2 Lotus Petal , + 3 Abrupt decay, 2 CoV , +1 FS +2 Massacre

-1 swamp -3 therapy +2 chain +2 flusterstorm

r5 Bug delver

I would side nothing. May be
-1 preordain -1 petal/sensei +2 chain for null rod or deathrite chaman.

r6 maverik

Sideboard: - 3 Duress , - 1 Preordain , -1 Lotus Petal - 1 Gitaxian Probe - 1 SDT / + 3 Abrupt decay, + 2 CoV +2 Massacre


Here you have to be fast if they live to his turn 3 you are dead I think.
-1 preordain -2 sensei -4 duress (im not so sure, striping zenith is cool may be -3 therapy depends on what kind of deck they play). +3 decay +2 massacre +2 chain

Thats my thoughts. Maverik and bug delver always give me hard problems when sideboarding. And also deathblade depends a lot on what cards they play.

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Thank you, yeah my sideboarding plan against Esper was a mess, I need to practice more on that, at the end, I'm happy with this configuration, you were right, SDT is a blast, second tendrils saved my ass against burn (this is the slot where I had EtW) which would have result useless, and basically I just need more and more practice.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

In the situations you noted about mass hatebears or needing time against UWx, Decay+Massacre probably serves you better than Decay+Pyroclasm anyway. You wouldn't need to contort around wastleand/port when youre removing at instant speed or using massacre, also, you can cantrip just fine using your basics.

moreover, being able to fetch a bayou against Miracles/Griselbrand is actually pretty relevant, as you can often need black or double black to combo off quickly, and being stuck on tropical island can be a real detriment.

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I've always been wary of Massacre because it can't beat Gaddock Teeg. I realize that nobody plays Teeg anymore but it still bothers me. It's also really bad with Ad Nauseam.

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Originally Posted by KevinH

I've always been wary of Massacre because it can't beat Gaddock Teeg. I realize that nobody plays Teeg anymore but it still bothers me. It's also really bad with Ad Nauseam.

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You have Abrupt decay and CoV against teeg

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Originally Posted by Firefight

You have Abrupt decay and CoV against teeg

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^ This. Also, against UWR Delver and DnT, you shouldnt have Ad Nauseam in your main anyway in a lot of cases. Even against Esper, where you'd want Massacre and Ad Nauseam, their deck is comparatively glacial so using Ad Nauseam as a draw 7 or w/e is perfectly fine.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

^ This. Also, against UWR Delver and DnT, you shouldnt have Ad Nauseam in your main anyway in a lot of cases. Even against Esper, where you'd want Massacre and Ad Nauseam, their deck is comparatively glacial so using Ad Nauseam as a draw 7 or w/e is perfectly fine.

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Really? I always thought D&T is one of the matches where you wanted Ad Nauseam. I agree that you don't want it vs UWR, but why not against D&T?

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Originally Posted by KevinH

Really? I always thought D&T is one of the matches where you wanted Ad Nauseam. I agree that you don't want it vs UWR, but why not against D&T?

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Your deck isn't well-suited to going off fast, due to Cabal Ritual, so it can be difficult in the general case to combo quickly before a hatebear arrives. Since you, more often than not, will have a constrained life total and mana base, it makes more sense to try and tutor chain or PiF after breaking the hate cards than trying a high-risk Ad Nauseam

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

Your deck isn't well-suited to going off fast, due to Cabal Ritual, so it can be difficult in the general case to combo quickly before a hatebear arrives. Since you, more often than not, will have a constrained life total and mana base, it makes more sense to try and tutor chain or PiF after breaking the hate cards than trying a high-risk Ad Nauseam

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I always treated Ad Nauseam as a card that enabled your nut draws on t1/t2 against non-blue decks, as I almost never want it in the late scenarios of any game. Is that inaccurate?

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Originally Posted by KevinH

I always treated Ad Nauseam as a card that enabled your nut draws on t1/t2 against non-blue decks, as I almost never want it in the late scenarios of any game. Is that inaccurate?

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ANT is not a turn 1 , turn 2 combo deck, its more like a turn 3 - 4 combo deck, your plan is to build up an unbeatable hand with discard , tutors and rituals.

Think about it as a control deck, you need to stabilize the board and be saved before going off, otherwise you can refer to the TES thread

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Originally Posted by KevinH

I always treated Ad Nauseam as a card that enabled your nut draws on t1/t2 against non-blue decks, as I almost never want it in the late scenarios of any game. Is that inaccurate?

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That's not wrong, but the chance that you have to play past turn 2 is pretty high. This isn't TES, your no-mana-floating yolo ad nauseam isn't a strong win, especially when your deck now has a bunch of abrupt decays and (in your case) pyroclasms in it and in the case where i do have to sit back and build up lands/removal for the win, the last thing id want to draw is ad nauseam, i'd much rather see massacre.

Massacre is a 1-mana way to clear the hatebears, which you can play off basics, and lets you aim your chains/decays at GY hate so you can just PiF them out. Chain can also be a make-shift storm engine too, so you can do clean kills instead of risky Ad Nauseams. I would rather take a card out when it's gonna be dead a lot of the time than keep a dead draw on the off chance that I can flop an easy win every now and then.

EDIT: To summarize the point, ANT is a t3 deck a lot of the time, so it's not statistically viable to try and race a card that comes in t2. The reason why youd race something like Griselbrand with extra ad nauseams is that griselbrand will end you effectively immediately, whereas a hatebear dicks around a while waiting to get murdered.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

That's not wrong, but the chance that you have to play past turn 2 is pretty high. This isn't TES, your no-mana-floating yolo ad nauseam isn't a strong win, especially when your deck now has a bunch of abrupt decays and (in your case) pyroclasms in it and in the case where i do have to sit back and build up lands/removal for the win, the last thing id want to draw is ad nauseam, i'd much rather see massacre.

Massacre is a 1-mana way to clear the hatebears, which you can play off basics, and lets you aim your chains/decays at GY hate so you can just PiF them out. Chain can also be a make-shift storm engine too, so you can do clean kills instead of risky Ad Nauseams. I would rather take a card out when it's gonna be dead a lot of the time than keep a dead draw on the off chance that I can flop an easy win every now and then.

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Would you say to cut Pyroclasm for Massacre then?

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Originally Posted by KevinH

Would you say to cut Pyroclasm for Massacre then?

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Unless you really hate Elves, yeah, i'd just lean on massacre, play that bayou if you don't mind 2 non-blue lands, that sorta thing.

I made the finals and Ben Ball finished t20 with this list at the SCG Legacy event in Indy

1 Past in Flames
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted Delta
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
1 Grim Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Dark Confidant
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Massacre
2 Defense Grid
2 Pyroclasm(not pryoblast)

My match ups were as followed. Ben Ball and I only played 2 Abrupt Decay's b/c we only wanted them for Miracles and wanted to add the Empty to the SB for RUG which we expected to have a bigger showing. My 2 losses in the swiss were to UWR Delver and shardless bug.

rd 1 burn
rd 2 miracles
rd 3 maverick
rd 4 storm mirror
rd 5 Elves
rd 6 punishing lands
rd 7 sneak and show
rd 8 RUG delver
rd 9 blue lands

rd 10 uwr delver
rd 11 shardless bug
rd 12 death and taxes
rd 13 sneak and show
rd 14 maverick
rd 15 ID

t8 elves
t4 mirror
Finals Bug Delver

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Originally Posted by firstshot

I made the finals and Ben Ball finished t20 with this list at the SCG Legacy event in Indy

1 Past in Flames
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted Delta
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
1 Grim Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Dark Confidant
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Massacre
2 Defense Grid
2 Pyroblast

My match ups were as followed. Ben Ball and I only played 2 Abrupt Decay's b/c we only wanted them for Miracles and wanted to add the Empty to the SB for RUG which we expected to have a bigger showing. My 2 losses in the swiss were to UWR Delver and shardless bug.

rd 1 burn
rd 2 miracles
rd 3 maverick
rd 4 storm mirror
rd 5 Elves
rd 6 punishing lands
rd 7 sneak and show
rd 8 RUG delver
rd 9 blue lands

rd 10 uwr delver
rd 11 shardless bug
rd 12 death and taxes
rd 13 sneak and show
rd 14 maverick
rd 15 ID

t8 elves
t4 mirror
Finals Bug Delver

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Hi Ben, gratz on your finish, how was the pyroblast on your sideboard, and what are your thoughts on Grim tut?

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Originally Posted by Firefight

Hi Ben, gratz on your finish, how was the pyroblast on your sideboard, and what are your thoughts on Grim tut?

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Oops. Thats a typo on SCG's site that I copied from. It should be 2x Pyroclasm.

Guys, breaking news !

Well first of all, i moved to Japan (Tokyo) and i will stay there for lets say at least a few years.It all depends on my work there and other stuff like women and success and so on, you know what i mean.
BUT ! I played in a legacy tournament today and there was a guy who played 4 Lim-Duls Vaults in his Deck instead of Ponder.
He won the tournament.

I talked to him afterwards and he told me how awesome this card is, basically a 2 mana vampiric tutor (you pay 1-3 life normally) with also an insight about the next 4 cards.Combined with Gitaxian Porbe and of course Brainstorm it could be a new direction for the deck.
Gitaxian Probes should sit in our hands until we resolved a lim-duls vault to get as deep in the almost *doomsday*pile as possible, brainstorm can almost draw the complete pile.

Don't get me wrong guys: Im not saying that playing Lim Dul OVER Ponder is good, it isn't. But what about playing lets say 3 copies of lim dul over the preordain/2nd pif/grim/2nd ad nauseam/...slots ?
I took a few opening hands and they were actually not bad.
So what I'm gonna do is to test this new idea over and over again for the next couple of weeks and tell you about my results.
But you can also do it yourself, tell me first what you guys think.
I can imagine that we can finally play 7 infernal tutors although lim dul is a card disadvantage-tutor.

check it out !

PS: I knew that Japanese Players are the most creative people.

We had LimDul in this deck quite a while ago and the question was not only how many carddisadvantage (also counting discard spend) the deck can afford, but if chaining like a Preordain+Ponder isn't basically achieving the same result without the carddisadvantage if it's sole for the digging for an Infernal.

I tried lim-dul's myself for a bit, and i feel like the card is awkward. It's tough to play it off basics because then you could only play 1 of your cantrips a turn. It is pretty slow due to needing 2 mana and either a draw step/cantrip. Moreover, the life loss makes it pretty counterproductive to ad nauseam, which is one of the best things to actually find with this as it makes up for the card disadvantage and synergizes well with LED and deck-stacking tricks. It's also really hard to evaluate what to side out if you replace the easy to side-out preordains with cards that you're attempting to value as highly as infernal tutor. However, it does seem like a neat trick to dig for sb cards like abrupt decay or massacre.

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

Guys, breaking news !

Well first of all, i moved to Japan (Tokyo) and i will stay there for lets say at least a few years.It all depends on my work there and other stuff like women and success and so on, you know what i mean.
BUT ! I played in a legacy tournament today and there was a guy who played 4 Lim-Duls Vaults in his Deck instead of Ponder.
He won the tournament.

I talked to him afterwards and he told me how awesome this card is, basically a 2 mana vampiric tutor (you pay 1-3 life normally) with also an insight about the next 4 cards.Combined with Gitaxian Porbe and of course Brainstorm it could be a new direction for the deck.
Gitaxian Probes should sit in our hands until we resolved a lim-duls vault to get as deep in the almost *doomsday*pile as possible, brainstorm can almost draw the complete pile.

Don't get me wrong guys: Im not saying that playing Lim Dul OVER Ponder is good, it isn't. But what about playing lets say 3 copies of lim dul over the preordain/2nd pif/grim/2nd ad nauseam/...slots ?
I took a few opening hands and they were actually not bad.
So what I'm gonna do is to test this new idea over and over again for the next couple of weeks and tell you about my results.
But you can also do it yourself, tell me first what you guys think.
I can imagine that we can finally play 7 infernal tutors although lim dul is a card disadvantage-tutor.

check it out !

PS: I knew that Japanese Players are the most creative people.

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I can say we have been there with LDV post mystical ban then few years back

in my experience LDV is more of a setup spell looking for a combination of cards (which are multiple copies in the deck, I often just rearranged top 5 cards) rather than a tutor+toolbox application - that simply does not work (well) imo... It's very fun and cool card but also difficult to play, I strongly dislike card disadvantage in Ant, it's U which is a problem and holding back cantrips (which I found a common problem in Doomsday) means holding back wins... on the other hand instant is instant... the concept is very bold, especially as a 4of over ponder, you lack T1/T2 plays... I'd not think someone going that way without U cantrip getting banned...

I don't believe this would be overall better but hard to judge without a complete decklist... I wonder how many SDT does he play... I'm definitely interested

...Reading japanese decklists simply cannot disappoint... btw. is there a special jap site for decklists? major english websites do not cite them much or hardly at all