[Deck] Suicide Black

Actually the current version of the deck I am running seems to be a solid build. Meaning it wins about 60% of its matches and has a solid matchup vs the current field. The only deck that I need to test more against is UW Miracles and if it becomes a top deck I’ll add Stromgald Cabal to the sideboard. Maybe something to deal with Darkblast. But every other deck in the format I have tested against and the results are fairly solid after finishing the sideboard.

While this is not Suicide persay. Its a definite derivative of Suicide and worth mentioning because it can kill very quickly.

Hatred

Sideboard
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Massacre
3 Manriki-Gusari
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Perish

Main
10 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
3 Phyrexian Tower
2 Lake of the Dead
4 Dark Ritual
3 Hatred
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Gravecrawler
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Geralf’s Messenger
3 Phyrexian Obliterator

Many creature decks splash white which makes Massacre amazing. Even vs goblins it’s a solid card if things get out of hand. Not to mention Elfball. The messenger’s are primarily in there for Liliana of the Veil and Pox decks as well as burn. And Obliterator obviously deals with burn well.

Fiends and Hippies and Wastelands do sufficient slow your opponent down while you are setting up for a Obliterator or Hatred.

Earlier I spoke against Lake of the Dead but Urborg makes Lake actually viable as you always have to seem an extra Urborg in your hand so sacrificing one to Lake of the Dead is not unrealistic.

People have been saying Hatred is not viable forever. In the hands of a good player any deck can prove formidable.

Peace.

Necrowil

I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.” —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

suicide is fairly dead right now but the current version i run has proven itself to be a solid tier 2 deck.

suicide black

sideboard
4 cursed scroll
3 liliana of the veil
3 bitterblossom
2 umezawa's jitte
2 perish
1 bloodghast

main
10 swamp
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 ghost quarter
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
3 hatred
4 deathrite shaman
4 hypnotic specter
3 gatekeeper of malakir
3 vampire nighthawk
3 geralf's messenger
3 phyrexian obliterator
3 bloodghast

the creatures that are listed as 3 you really don't want a 4th for various reasons with each one. obliterator is too expensive, gatekeeper is not always useful, nighthawk does not deal enough damage for opponents to be too concerned, its a utility card vs aggressive decks, bloodghast is mostly for standstill and pure control, messenger is there for pox and decks with sacrifice effects and liliana, hatred is there vs decks like charbelcher and to give you an option when you are overmatched. it works well.

the sideboard is really strong vs the field as well. deathrite shaman is MVP. why gate doesn't run it i will never know. its a way of killing your opponent if they attempt to lock up the game. plus its mana. 23 creatures main is a perfect number for an aggressive deck. the new set doesn't look like it offers us much but if you have not used shaman yet i highly recommend it

also ghost quarter may require explanation. its there for land decks and cloudpost decks and artifact decks and its highly effective against those decks. for all intent it is a strip mine against some decks that don't run basic land. or you can use it if you draw too many urborg as well.

you may thing there is not enough black mana in the deck. you're wrong. try it out.

Peace.

Necrowil

I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.” —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dal9ll

Diabolic Edict seems better than Smother. Jitte is the tips here too.

Lastly, what do you have against Bob?

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So I've just got 4 bobs, the missing pieces as the deck needs an engine.

The list is now

Snuff Out x4
Dark Ritual x 4
Thoughtseize x 4
Diabolic Edict x 3
Sinkhole x 4
Hymn to Tourach x 4
Dark Confidant x 4
Stromgald Crusader x 3
Nantuko Shade x 3
Hypnotic Specter x 4
Umez Jitte x 3

Wasteland x 4
Swamp x 16

SB
Leyline of Void x 4
Mindbreak Trap x 4
Inquisition of Kozilek x 2
Perish x 2
Dystopia x 3

The Snuff outs and edicts are dropped v combo and traps and inquisitions are in, with maybe the jittes also out and leylines in.

The list has removal and an engine, whilst keeping disruption and crusaders with jittes and shades as finishers.

The deck needs Bob! I'll test it out next time I'm down the local club.

[QUOTE=orcanmail;702907]So I've just got 4 bobs, the missing pieces as the deck needs an engine.


The bobs with thoughseizes and snuff outs cause too much damage so after testing the deck is now as above with changes

-4 snuff out
-3 diabolic edict
-4 hypnotic specter

+4 Gatekeeper
+ 4 Smother
+1 Stromgald Cabal
+ 2 Inquisition of Kozilek

SB
_2 Inquisition of kozilek
+ 2 Grafdiggers cage

Should perform better I think but are there any cheaper effective removal for black than smother?

Suicide black is definitely viable again with recent print of Deathrite Shaman that has breathed new life into the deck.

Suicide Black

Sideboard
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Cursed Scroll
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Perish

Main
10 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Hatred
3 Bitterblossom
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Geralf’s Messenger
3 Phyrexian Obliterator

Basically I don’t believe Confidant, Gatekeeper or Nighthawk are beatdown suicide cards. People have a lot of trouble vs this version. If they side in a lot of graveyard hate it weakens their deck.

MVP is Ghost Quarter, Deathrite Shaman, Cabal Therapy and Bloodghast. Hasted creatures means a lot in the format now especially ones that can come back from the grave. If they try to remove it you can respond by using Ghost Quarter.

The deck doesn’t really need Hatred but I still like being able to kill my opponent when they run out of answers or draw a weak hand vs my deck.

Not sure why Gate is not running it but Shaman is amazing. It solves a ton of problems for us. Removes graveyard threats, speeds up the deck and it the opponent locks the game you can still kill them using the nontarget damage effect. I love them.

Peace.

Necrowil
I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.” —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

I am new to The Source, but I have been playing and following legacy for a while. I have always been a fan of Sui Black, and it was actually my first legacy deck.

I decided to take it out for a spin and made top 4 in a 16 player local event, and I just thought my fellow Sui Black enthusiasts (if there are any left) might be interested in my list and my report.

This is the list I played:

Lands:
Swamp x 20

Creatures:
Order of the Ebon Hand x4
Gatekeeper of Malakir x4
Geralf's Messenger x4
Phyrexian Obliterator x4

Artifacts:
Cursed Scroll x4

Instants and Sorceries
Thoughtseize x4
Inquisition of Kozlilek x4
Dark Ritual x4
Hymn to Tourach x4
Dismember x4

Sideboard:
Surgical Extraction x4
Relic of Progenitus x4
Pithing Needle x4
Ratchet Bomb x3


My Report:

Vs. Belcher
Game 1
This was honestly not the matchup I wanted to see, especially since he won the die roll, which meant I was fully expecting to get belched or swarmed with goblins on turn 1.

Fortunately for me, lady luck really wanted me to win this game 1, because my opponent mulliganed at least once, and he kept a hand with lots of Gitaxian Probes and a Street Wraith, and never really found a win condition until my beaters got there (I think I had a Geralf's Messenger and an Order of the Ebon hand on the field, and possibly an active Cursed Scroll too).

Game 2
I sided in 4 Pithing Needles and 3 Ratchet bombs, and I took out 4 Dismembers and 3 Cursed Scrolls.

I saw a hand with a ratchet bomb and some beaters, and I just prayed he was on the goblin plan. He wasn't, and instead he played a turn 1 Belcher and activated it on turn 2 or 3. I had no needles and I did not even have time to blow up a Tinder Wall on his side with Ratchet Bomb before I got belched for well over 20.

Game 3
Once again, lady luck was smiling on me. My opening hand had a Pithing Needle, a Ratchet Bomb, beaters, and lands to cast all of my spells, so of course I kept. Since I was on the play, I felt really good about this game. Of course, my first play was Pithing Needle naming Goblin Charbelcher. I played an Order of the Ebon Hand on turn 2 and a Geralf's Messenger on turn 3. He fired off Empty the Warrens for 14 goblins and used basically all his spells in the process, so I of course played and activated Ratchet Bomb the following turn and finished him before he could recover.

Record so far = 1-0 (2-1 in total matches)

Vs Dredge
Game 1
My opponent won the die roll, but mulled once or twice. At first, this made me feel good about my chances, but then I saw him play a five color land and a Putrid Imp, and suddenly I didn't like my chances as much. When he didn't discard a dredger on his next upkeep, suddenly I felt good about my chances again. I had a few beaters on the field, and that he didn't draw any dredgers for the next 4 turns or so, so lady luck really screwed my opponent out of this game, and I won.

Game 2
I sided in 4 Surgical Extractions, 3 Ratchet Bombs, and 4 Relic of Progenitus. I sided out 4 Thoughtseizes, 4 Hymn to Tourachs, and 3 Cursed Scrolls. I sided in two Pithing Needles too (for Putrid Imp), but I cannot remember what I sided out.

I chose to play, and my opening hand contained a Surgical Extraction, a Relic of Progenitus, a Dark Ritual, a Geralf's Messenger, an Order of the Ebon Hand, and 2 lands. I played a turn 1 Geralf's Messenger off a Dark Ritual to start the beats. My opponent started going nuts with Lion's Eye Diamond, Faithless Looting, and multiple Dredgers. I let two Narcomoeba triggers resolve (probably a mistake), instead deciding to extract Bridge from Below. Since I saw a Golgari Grave Troll and a Golgari Thug when I extracted the Bridges, I decided it was better to slow-roll my Relic than to risk a swift recovery on his part.

At this point, it was a race between a couple of Ichorids on his side vs my Messenger and pump knight. I knew he could only return Ichorid a few times before he ran out of black cards to exile, so I was patient, and we both got pretty low on life. At some point, he played his Golgari Thug from his hand, which made things a bit complicated. However, since I was slow-rolling my Relic, it didn't bother me too much as long as I had my Relic open. At some point, I Dismembered his Putrid Imp, but the dead Imp and some other black cards gave more fuel to his Ichorids, ao I cracked my Relic at the end of his turn. About this time, he went to 1 life from activating City of Brass multiple times, and I had to decide whether to attack into his Thug and Narcomoebas or play a Phyrexian Obliterator and wait to attack the next turn. I decided on the latter, and since he had no apparent way to dredge into more action, he scooped, as the trample damage alone would have been lethal.

Record so far = 2-0 (4-1 in total matches)
Vs Rug Delver (A.K.A. Canadian Thresh):
Game 1
I actually have experience playing against RUG delver, and I feel I am favored as long as I draw enough swamps and/or Dark Rituals. My deck has answers to all RUG’s threats, my manabase is impervious to wasteland and stifle, and RUG really doesn't have any ideal answers to Phyrexian Obliterator or Geralf's Messenger.

However, since I didn't know what my opponent was playing game 1, I kept a risky hand with 3 Hymns, a Thoughtseize, two swamps, and an Order of the Ebon hand, hoping to be facing a controlish or combo deck. In essence, I got stuck on two mana for the first 4 turns or so, and my opponent Dazed and Forced all my discard spells, and I ultimately ended up with an Order of the Ebon hand staring down at a thresheld Mongoose and a 4/5 Tarmogoyf. I lost.

Game 2:
I sided out 3 Order of the Ebon Hands and 4 Hymn to Tourachs for 4 Relic of Progenitus and 3 Ratchet Bombs.

I played a turn 1 Geralf’s Messenger off a Dark Ritual (which later got killed by lightning bolt + Stifle). Ultimately, I resolved a Cursed Scroll and killed one of his Delvers with 2 Dismembers in hand, so I felt set to deal with whatever he played except for Nimble Mongoose. Of course he drew Nimble Mongoose next turn.

Believe it or not, I actually found myself in a race between my Scroll and his Thresheld Mongoose, and by my calculations, since he was at a lower life total, I would win one turn before he did as long as he didn't draw another Goose or a burn spell. I was really hoping to draw more creatures, but I kept drawing lands. I was really happy when I Inquisitioned him the turn before I would win with Scroll, and he had no Stifle, no bolts, and no cantrips. I just had to pray he didn't draw into a bolt or a stifle, and I would live at 3 life. He ripped a Lightning Bolt off the top of his library, and I lost. That's just the way RUG Delver rolls, so it didn't bother me, I just have to play as best I can each game and hope for the best.

Record = 2-1 (4-3 in total matches)

At this point, I asked around, and discovered that a 3-1 record was almost certain to make top 8, so I still felt good about my chances. It turned out that I didn't even have to play another game to make top 8, (probably because most of the 1-2s dropped out), so we were off to the top 8.


Top 8:

Vs Dredge
Game 1

This was the same opponent that I faced in the second round of the swiss. I think lost the die roll again. For a while, it looked like my opponent's luck was repeating itself, as he didn't have a dredger for the first 2 or 3 turns. However, as soon as he drew a dredger, he made a bunch of zombie tokens before I could dismember my own Gatekeeper (he ended up stripping the Dismember from my hand anyways), and he dumped a bunch of Ichorids in his graveyard which killed me on turn 4 or 5 I think.

Game 2
I sided in 4 Surgicals, 4 Relic, and 3 Ratchbombs, and sided out 4 Dismembers, 3 Scolls, and 4 Hymns. I sided out the Dismembers instead of Thoughtseize this time because I always like to maximize my chances of having a turn 1 discard spell on the play vs Dredge.

It was getting late, and my play was slipping a bit, so my memory is not the best as to what happened. All I remember was that I made my opponent discard a Brakethrough on turn one (which could very well have led to a turn 1 kill for him), he went on the end-step discard a dredger plan, and I had graveyard hate for each dredger he discarded. I won this game.

Game 3:
I sided out 4 Thoughtseizes for 4 Dismembers.

My opponent mulled to 4 this game. There is not much to say here, other than we both made some apparent misplays, but since he was working with very few cards in hand and I had a bunch of hate like usual, this was not a particularly fun game for either of us. At least I won, which is more fun than losing, but I still felt robbed of a potentially fun game 3.

Top 4:

Vs Reanimator
Game 1
I think I have an OK chance to win this match-up as long as I am on the play so my first turn discard spells pull their weight. I lost the die roll, however, and my opponent played a first turn Entomb or Careful Study (I can't remember which). He then Forced of Willed my first turn discard spell, and he Animated his dead Griselbrand. I scooped when he Thoughtseized the next turn, as I had lost anyway and did not want him to see my hand.

Game 2
I sided out 4 Cursed Scrolls and 4 Dismembers for 4 Relics and 4 Surgical Extractions.

I kept a hand without much discard and with a slow clock, but at least I had a Relic. I probably should have mulled, but it was late, so I was losing focus and not playing at my best. Not much to say here other than he brought Griselbrand to show and tell and all I brought was a swamp, so needless to say, I lost.


Thoughts:
Since I played combo most of the day, Cursed Scroll was not too great, but I highly recommend it in this meta, even in the main deck, because it really functions a lot like a one card Punishing Fire / Grove of the Burnwillows combo, even though it is vulnerable to Abrupt Decay (which is not actually that bad vs Sui Black because decks that use Abrupt Decay as their primary removal spell usually have a very hard time dealing with Geralf's Messenger and Phyrexian Obliterator). Order of the Ebon Hand would have been better all day as Nantuko Shade, but in testing, protection from white seemed essential since this deck is overall pretty soft to Swords to Plowshares, Batterskull, and Jitte without it (and this old-school pump knight actually pulls a lot of weight against those cards, since first strike stops Jitte counters and holds off Batterskull if you have enough mana).

Is Stillmoon Cavalier not a viable card in place of the Hand?

Stillmoon is an option, but the only issue there is that he costs three mana, and my three mana slot is pretty clogged with the Messengers and the Gatekeepers. I have considered perhaps switching Gatekeeper to a two mana edict to make room, but the downside there is lowering the deck's threat density and increasing the mana curve of its threats, and that is an issue because one of the most common ways I lose is if I cannot apply enough pressure fast enough after I rip my opponent's hand apart. I just really wish Stillmoon was two mana :frown:

I have actually warmed up to the idea of running Stillmoon Cavalier recently, and I have currently replaced Order of the Ebon Hand in my build. I have indeed cut Gatekeeper of Malakir for Geth's Verdict to smooth out the curve. So far, my current build definitely does not seem to be worse, but I am not sure if it is better either.

One side effect of making these changes is that my deck now feels more like "The Gate" than "Sui Black," since making these changes has pushed it out of Aggro and into Midrange territory. If I post again, I will probably post in The Gate's thread for this reason. Truth be told, however, my current pet project is trying to build a budget Merfolk deck (it is actually showing promise, expect the one money card that cannot be compromised on is actually Aether Vial, not Force of Will), so I have not been testing Mono Black as much as I used to.

@thEnd3000 Thanks for the report. I like the deck you posted. I have some suggestions really, no criticisms.

1) There are a couple if issues that I see with black decks or decks with black in them.

Deathrite Shaman

This card is amazing. It’s the best toy we have gotten in a long time. Your deck has 20 land and multiple 3cc and 4cc creatures. Not sure where you are playing but I used to run a deck like that and it seems like you’re going to have a lot of games where you do not see a third land drop with 20 land. Currently my deck has 23 land, 4 Shaman and 4 Ritual. Granted I have a 2nd color but its basically a monoblack deck with a few white cards like Swords to Plowshares in the sideboard and Tidehollow Sculler. If you don’t have a ritual and you don’t hit your 3rd land drop that just sucks doesn’t it? Part of the reason I run Sculler is quite a bitter countermagic cannot stop it.

2) Sinkhole is not really an answer to Grove, Glacial Chasm, Cloudpost, Maze of Ith and Tabernacle. Why not run Wasteland? These 3 lands have cost me so many games I now run 4 Wasteland and 4 Ghost Quarter main deck. Ghost Quarter is the equivalent of Strip Mine vs three color decks now. Basically if they can stop your Sinkhole that’s it. Also Sinkhole does not produce mana and costs 2 when you should be dropping a threat really most of the time. If you run any non-basic land you can always run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

3) 16 creatures looks light to me. I mean sure they should have no cards with all the hand destruction you are running but even so. Personally, I think the creature mix for this deck should be 4 Deathrite Shaman, 4 Nantuko Shade, 4 Hypnotic Specter, 4 Geralf’s Messenger and 4 Phyrexian Obliterator. Gatekeeper in this deck is weak to me. You don’t want to play a 2/2 for 3 and take their weakest guy after you have destroyed their hand. Specter might allow you to cut the number of discard cards you are playing. Currently I run 4 Tidehollow, 4 Specter and 4 Hymn and 3 Liliana and it seems perfect to me.

Lastly you may want to consider play Liliana of the Veil and Umezawa’s Jitte in your build somewhere. That’s just my two cents. I run 3 Lil and 2 Jitte main deck. Lil also allows you to play less discard and less removal. She’s a little slower though.

Of course a lot of people don’t own all the cards I just mentioned but that’s why I play online. :D

Anyway that’s just my two cents.

Why not running phyrexian crusader?

It seems perfect. Like a mongoose for a RUG :tongue:

Bye

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jafar

Why not running phyrexian crusader?

It seems perfect. Like a mongoose for a RUG :tongue:

Bye

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Most people don't bother with Crusader because he deals infect damage; unless you're running an entirely infect-based strategy he's just not reliable, you'll deal some amount of infect, have him removed, and his work (as an offensive unit anyway) will have been nullified. In a vacuum he's good, he avoids a lot of the most common removals played in Legacy outside of Abrupt Decay, but the fact that he creates the strategic conundrum that I mentioned makes him a poor choice in most lists.

I'm surprised nobody ever plays Unearth. It's always played extremely well for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Big Ragu

I'm surprised nobody ever plays Unearth. It's always played extremely well for me.

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I'm surprised someone posted on this thread.

Well with the new fattie in town I had to revisit mono black, get him out with a jitte and feast away.

4 dark rituals
3 dismember
3 diregraf ghoul
4 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 go for the throat
4 hymn to tourach
4 dark confidant
2 nantuko shade
3 stromgald crusader
3 umezawi's jitte
2 liliana of the veil
4 master of the feast

16 swamp
4 wasteland

SB
4 leyline of the void
4 mindbreak trap
2 tormod's crypt
2 grafdigger's cage
3 perish

gonna test the deck out for fun

This deck makes me happy. And I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks master if the feast is awesome

I'd suggest Hero's Downfall over the GftTs in the list.

I must admit I am still considering Hero's Downfall in that slot for removal, 1cc more expensive but can deal with planeswalkers. Could be a meta call.

As with most decks that I play that don't have Stoneforge and run equipment, I personally don't like having 3 Jittes.

I'd rather have 2x Jitte and 1x SoFI if running 3 equipment or 1x Jitte and 1x SoFI if running 2 equipment.

Multiple Jittes in hand usually makes me sad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zupponn

As with most decks that I play that don't have Stoneforge and run equipment, I personally don't like having 3 Jittes.

I'd rather have 2x Jitte and 1x SoFI if running 3 equipment or 1x Jitte and 1x SoFI if running 2 equipment.

Multiple Jittes in hand usually makes me sad.

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Would SoLaS be a better shoice for SuiBlack? I ask because it seems like the lifegain and the creature recursion are more relevant than the SoFaI abilities. In addition, it gives a creature protection from Farms and Paths.