sure, it may be kind of cool now, cause its new. but once everyone starts playing it, Im sure the legacy crowd will find proper ways of dealing with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
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sure, it may be kind of cool now, cause its new. but once everyone starts playing it, Im sure the legacy crowd will find proper ways of dealing with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
i hope many people play this combo so i can crush them with a daze. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Seriously
Tournament this saturday : I am expecting at least 10+ landstill (good players too).
How to modify MD to face such a treat? I already included 2 pithing needle and it greatly helps by slowing them down. CB happens to be wonderful too. And MD krosan grip seems like a good idea.
How to face Merfolk : HOW? Its a bad MU. How to make it better?
1st Trygon MD
2nd Pithing Needle MD
It will stop their Vial.
3rd Explosives force backup is a must.
4th Keeping a goyf on the table + swording Atlantis(bc of Islanwalk) and Reejerey(bc of tap effect).
But as a sideboard option. It's a good question. Is rhox war monk efficient against them? Or PtE would be better?
PM
As Enigma said, Needle MD is quite solid against both decks as Merfolk nowadays also run Relic of Progenitus MD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega
You could also play the Back to Basics build (2 BtB or 1 and 1 Tutor) against Landstill. Gaddock Teeg SB is also quite solid against Landstill and some other decks like Combo.
Against swarm aggro Dueling Grounds is very good. especially against Merfolk, as they won't be able to remove it permanently unless they splash green. Even if they Grip it they will certainly loose momentum and the Grip won't go on your Balance/Top/Needle.
A much broader answer is creature Stealing via Shackles or Threads. You don't need many Islands in play to make Shackles effective against Merfolk.
About the UWx-Landstill MU:
I have been testing this match-up a lot since a week and I have to say the even with Needles and Trygon MD (and O. Ring) and G. Teeg and more Needles in the SB, it's a very tough MU. Elspeth is my main problem. All our answers to it (aside from countering it) don't deal with it permanently. Yes Needle and O.Ring get rid of it temporarily, but I've lost a lot of games with an active Needle or O. Ring on Elspeth only to have my opponent remove said cards and win. UGW-Threshold doesn't pack that much pressure as to make these cards (Needle, O. Ring, Teeg) real solutions to that damned planeswalker... sadly I can't see any other solution (oh, and Teeg is good but then again, it's only a temporary solution).
I will be attending the same tournament as Omega, and since I expect a lot of control in the form of Landstill variants, decent amounts of swarm aggro (Merfolk) and a bit of Faerie-Dragon Stompy, I don't think I'll play UGW-Threshold.
Maybe just use more counterspells instead of that "MU package", then?
A short tournament (30p, 6 rounds, no top8) report with this list:
// Lands
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [U] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [P3] Island (3)
1 [TSP] Forest (1)
1 [9E] Plains (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [TSB] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [NE] Daze
3 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [4E] Control Magic
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 4 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
I wanted to play 2 Rhox War Monk but couldn't get them in time so the 18th land (tundra) and Control Magic were played in place.
The meta in my area is mostly aggro/aggro-control, few combo was expected.
R1 : Rémi with (almost) mono red goblins
An old player who took its GP list from 2007.
G1 : he mulls to 5 to get a land, gets its vial dazed turn 1, and concedes against double tarmogoyf when he fails to find a second land.
G2 : I side out countertop, control magic for BeB, meddling mage.
He gets lackey turn 1, I BeB it my turn, and swarm him with tarmo/goose.
Bad luck for him ...
R2 : my friend Laurent (soon) with Ugbw countertop thresh / baseruption.
G1 After a mulligan I get a fast top. He plays confidant, I sword. I play a tarmogoyf. Then he has counterbalance, I FoW, he FoW back. EOT I play enlightened, he reveals top. From then it's too hard to break the lock and he has enough time to find his own tarmo to block and wins the card advantage war.
G2 is almost the same, I counter a confidant, then he assembles countertop before me and has a jotun grunt when we both have about 10 cards in yard.
Too many cards to handle in this matchup, the black splash is strong in the mirror, and mongoose is weak.
R3 : Pierre with white stax
G1 I have no idea what he plays, he has plains, mishra and attacks. I play 1 or 2 tarmo and assemble countertop. He plays crucible, I tutor an oblivion ring to counter. He has a maze of ith to slow me. Then a chalice @1. I get him down to 6. He gets double mishra and plays crucible with 1 mana up. I think my top card is daze (bad memory) and top to get it ... mistake. So I can't replay top and he is able to animate mishra and block. However the third tarmo is too much to handle.
G2 I side meddling, back to basics (he has few plains), tormod, krosan for swords, counterbalance, control magic. I should have gotten also gaddock.
He gets a turn 1 sphere of resistance which I choose not to force. I played about 5 lands in 5 turns while he's a bit screwed, and manage to dig a trygon predator turn 4. I can daze or force his bombs even with sphere and he concedes when I get tarmogoyf online after gripping his runed halo on trygon.
A bit lucky again.
R4 is against my long time partner and friend Quentin who plays enchantress, which I know amost by heart.
G1 He mulligans as almost always when we play together :)
He keeps a slow hand with a single draw effect which gets countered. Turn 3 or 4 I have countertop AND trygon so the game ends fast.
G2 I Force a turn 2 enchantress. He gets an aura of silence to my top and tarmogoyf. He gets down to 5, manages a confinment and argothian. I grip the confinment so he has to block with argothian to survive. Then he makes a mistake, playing a presence instead of city of solitude. I let it go, force the runed halo and kill him.
R5 : Jean-Francois with aggro elves (mono G).
I saw his deck and am very worried of his 8 forestwalk lords
G1 he gets a very strong start with 3 creatures and a vial in 4 turns. I kept a hand I probably should have mulliganned which had about 2 tarmo, 2 mongoose and lands, cantrips. His last creature is a lord and forestwalk kills me before I did anything relevant.
G2 He kept a hand with 1 forest and 2 vials. I daze both and he dies before seeing another land.
G3 He starts with vial, I answer with needle. Then he has a Jitte which I let go. I counter or swords his first creatures, assemble countertop, and prevent him from having any creature on table.
He had no mana elves, so keeping vial off the table is as important as always.
R6, Mathieu with a homebrew deck : a mix between rock (deed, tarmo, finks to fight the aggro meta, explosives, removal) and aggro loam (cycle lands, loam) with 4 demigods of revenge.
G1 he gets deckchecked and game loss because he messed up his list
We get to side, I don't know really well his deck and get in almost everything, siding out countertop, swords.
G2 He answers all my threats with explosives and deeds and kills me with tarmogoyf.
G3 I remove gaddock since he seems not to play big spells (no worm harvest)
Again, we trade creatures and removal for a long time. I probably misplayed my mind harness. I had a tarmogoyf, he had a kitchen finks with a marker and a full spike feeder. I was worried of the combo which would gain him much life next turn, so I harnessed the spike to attack with tarmo. Obivously he sacced the spike so my harness does nothing. Then again he has answers, I play 3 forces in total so I m a bit low on cards. He starts loaming and cycling a lot but has nothing relevant to attack. I get a back to basics when he's almost alltapped. He only has 2 basics in the deck but manages to find them with diamond and loam.I get a mongoose and bash him down to 5. We are now in the additionnal turns, I probably can't kill him missing one turn. On the 4th turn, with 50 cards in graveyard (and 3 dredged demigod), he plays his fourth demigod and attacks me for 20. Nice finish !
Overall he's deck was quite strong (he finished 2nd, losing only to enchantress on mana death) and a hard matchup for thresh.
I was really pleased with this version of the deck. The enlightened toolbox was usefull. I did not miss the war monks since I did not face real aggro/burn decks (or they were unlucky enough), but I will get them for next time.
Hello, this is my first post, but I've been lurking around here for awhile. I played in a 44 person event this past Saturday (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=12174). I ended up at 12th place with a 4-2 record. I have been playing Legacy for only about half a year and my deck has been mostly the same the whole way through. I used to fit in Stifle-Nought, but it was never a good fit for the deck.
I've found Ugw Thresh is a perfect home for the Progenitus combo. The deck plays as it did pre-conflux, but now also has an alternate win condition in Progenitus. Not as important but noteworthy, Natural Order occasionally helped achieve threshold. Out of 12 games that I played, I cast the combo three times, each cast being protected by countermagic when needed.
I am really happy with the deck at this point. Mana, creatures, and draw spells all seem to fit really well. The sideboard, however, is in need of some work. I want to get back to 4 Tormod's Crypts or Relics of Progenitus. Here is what I used:
///Deck///
3 Flooded Stand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Werebear
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensie Divining Top
///Sideboard///
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Counterbalance
1 Elephant Grass
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Trygon Predator
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wash Out
For anyone that may be interested in details:
Round 1 vs Ugw Threshold (with wasteland and o-ring) 1-0
Game 1: I cast an early Mongoose and sit on it. I hold out till turn 5 and cast Natural Order. I had Force of Will ready in my hand but Natural Order was good. My opponent scoops.
Game 2: I draw into two Werebear a Mongoose and a Goyf. He gets counterbalance out and the next turn I play Trygon Predator. Eventually I get an Enforcer out and win with flying creatures.
Round 2 vs Ichorid 1-1
Game 1: A combination of my opponent playing well, and myself not having much experience with Ichorid probably made this an easier win for my opponent. I was on the ropes the entire game, and I'm still not entirely sure how I should have played the match.
Game 2: My opening hand had Tormod's crypt but no land, so I mulligan to 6. For a few turns I would have been in good shape if I had drawn a Tormod's Crypt, but otherwise he was in control and had me on a fast clock.
Round 3 vs Goblins 2-1
Game 1: I draw Progenitus and Natural Order as well as several other beaters. I end up casting two Natural Orders in this game for both of my Mystic Enforcers. I later pitch Progenitus to Force of WIll.
Game 2: I get the counter-top engine online quick and get a Werebear into play. My opponent misplayed his Mogg Fanatic and tried to respond to Natural Order by killing my only creature in play. I only mention this because the game could have gone either way at that point, but I still had a fair amount of draw cards in my hand. Progenitus comes out and wins the game.
Round 4 vs Ad Nauseam Tendrils 2-2
Game 1: My opponent plays a first turn Duress and knocks out a Brainstorm. I draw into counterbalnce, but otherwise have no other countermagic in my hand. He goes off on turn three and counterbalance misses twice.
Game 2: I kept a hand with two Force of wills in it but nothing else. He plays a first turn Xantid Swarm which I did not counter. He goes off on turn 2 after attacking with the Xantid Swarm and I lose.
Round 5 vs Aluren Elves 3-2
Game 1: I get a Werebear and Mongoose into play early and he spends the first two turns playing mana elves and then Aluren with two Imperious Perfects behind it. I luckily Top into two Swords to Plowshares which made for a very unfavorable attack for him. Left with only a mana elf left I attack to win.
Game 2: Almost the same thing happened in game two. A Swords to Plowshares plus a couple of blocks make for a bad combat step for him. I allowed him to play a turn two Choke which turned out to be the right choice. (I had two Daze, a Forest, and a Fetchland in my hand). Daze worked out well to recycle my Tropical Island. Choke slowed me down, but wasn't a hinderance.
Round 6 vs Ugw Threshold (with Survival of the Fitest and Squee) 4-2
Game 1: My opponent spends most of the game playing draw effects. I get a Mongoose, Werebear, and Enforcer into play and start beating despite not having threshold. Turn 7 I cast Natural Order with Force of Will for in hand for protection, but I didn't need it. My opponent scoops.
Game 2: My opponent sits on one land for several turns. It takes me a little bit longer to get going too, but I manage to Swords to Plowshares his threats and eventually beat down with Werebear and Mongoose. At one point late in the game I had drawn Progenitus, and then used it to pitch to Force of Will.
Its been a while since I have played white thresh but after reading through some I have some questions.
1) Natural order... Really? Really? A janky two card combo which helps 0 matchups and opens you up for a 2 for 1.
2) Is knight of relequary awsome or bust?
3) No goose, no shoes, not threshold. Sorry I really feel like cutting goose makes the deck not threshold any more but morphs it into its own aggro control varient, why isnt goose good enough for the average metagame it never dies unless the opponent can resolve huge fat and stick it.
4) Here is my modified nonbasic inquisition list
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Control magic
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
1 Portent
2 Back to Basics
4 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
SB
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Back to Basics
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Open slots
Its a modified old list but BTB is such a house it automaticaly wins like 1/3rd of your games by itself.
She's amazing. Awesome synergy. She nearly always comes down as a 5 or 6.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
What about natural order proeverything is that good as well? I have a feeling its a gimmic because its worse than every other good combo still out there the only differance is its able to be used in an existing good deck.
Also I have been loving 4 basics and X back to basics because you win so many games on the back of "Island, fetch a plains fetch a forest force your guy, BTB go."
I think Natural Order is worth testing, but I don't think it's going to last.
I have also been running 2-3 Back to Basics main and it has won or substantially continubted to a win in a large percentage of my games. Although there is, of course, a trade off, in that I lose 2-3 other spells, I have been very happy with the Back to Basics strategy (running 4 basics, 4 duals and 9 fetches) and I have performed well at tournaments and in testing.
I played against two GRb Aggro Loam decks (one discard-based and one Chalice-based) and one UB Faerie deck at a 25(ish)-person tournament on Monday, and the combination of Back to Basics (2 mainboard) and Counter-Top won me each match quite well. I ended up in 4th place.
With respect to the Aggro Loam matchups, I found a 2-2 sideboard split between Jotun Grunt and Tormod's Crypt to be very effective. I like the ability to quickly solve the graveyard problem with Crypt and move into a constant graveyard control strategy with Grunt.
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Sense's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Krosan Grip
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
That's what I've been running lately with some good results. Grip MD catches more than a few people off guard. Shackle eats little fishies.
I do not intend to create any hypes, but I played a small local tournament yesterday (28 ppl) and finished 5-0 (10-0 in games) with Progenitus Thresh.
My matchups were TES, UWb Fish, Elfball, Affinity and BWG Rock.
I now see Natural Order's role in this deck: Just imagine they were 3 Mystic Enforcers (and playing 3 Mystic Enforcers is quite oldschool). But you don't get a 6/6 Flyer but the 10/10 Hydra God or the Empyrial Archangel (in exchange you "waste" 1 maindeck slot to have access to such a brute force).
It helped me to win faster against TES because I was only beating him with a whimsy 1/1 Goose while having CB-Top assembled.
Against Fish it was gg, but g2 he also had some 3 Perishs which would have bought him some time, but he did not draw them.
Against Elfball I simply Counterbalance-Top-Goyf'ed. Affinity was won by triple Goyf beatdown and a mistake by him, trading a Master of Etherium unnecessarily with my Goyf.
Against Rock I won the first game very quickly as he didn't saw Natural Order.
He annoyed me to death with Deeds and Vindicates on my Counterbalances, but I reassembles CB-Top and thus I was safe to go for EOT Dryad Arbor and then Natural Order.
Game 2 we both had an equal amount of Goyfs and an equal amount of a Geese-Kitchen Finks-Werebear-Witness mixture and the game maks absolutely no progress as we both draw nothing. But that was ok, I was just sitting there and could dig for the Nat.Order with my Top while he was throwing his Thoughtseizes at me like a paranoid.
I eventually find a Natural Order and it's over.
This deck was a hell of fun to play, but even though I won some games with Natural Order, it's questionable to me whether it makes sense.
I still can't refuse that it was a hell of fun to play it, seing all those "WTF?!"-expressions on my opponents faces, owning people with huge creatures... I would say it was the funniest Threshold I've played so far.
My maindeck is the same as ObFreely's but with a different sideboard which is as follows:
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
I just top8ed this month's Iserlohn event (sadly only 57 players) with NQG/w, coming in seventh, with a record of 4-1-1.
In the process, I beat Fish, GBW Survival and Aggro Loam (twice). I lost against my team mate's Fiery Pandaburst, the draw resulted from my last rounds Landstill opponent saving himself to the time-out.
A more detailed report is posted here.
I played last month's list with the following changes:
-1 Island
-1 Mystic Enforcer
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Nantuko Monastery
All the changes are motivated by me having experienced some slight manabase problems lately.
As always, the list was incredibly solid. Nantuko Monastery was nothing spectacular but solid nevertheless, turning the one hand I had it in into a keeper. Werebear has proven himself worthy of the slots once again: taping for mana in the earlygame and a bigger body late (4/4 is just so much more relevant than 3/3, clock and blocking wise) is just so much better than Nimble Mongoose's shroud, especially in a build with 7 cards that cost 3 (which is total awesome for and against Counterbalance, by the way).
First of all, I think we can all agree on the fact that Nimble Mongoose has been diminishing returns since quite some time now: all non-utility creatures out there are at least equal in size if not much bigger making it a bad blocker (trading is not great when you want to play the control role) and a bad attacker (since you can't race anything and/or your attack dies to any blocker).Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
People often criticize how cutting Nimble Mongoose makes your curve less smooth. In absolute terms, this is correct. However, you have to keep in mind that, although you can drop Nimble Mongoose early which does smooth out your curve, its impact on the board is so negligible that you might as well not have dropped it: most of the time Nimble Mongoose is just going to watch how real creatures (i.e. anything but Nimble Mongooses and/or utility creatures like Dark Confidant) walk past it, even in the earlygame (everything is bigger than an un-threshed Mongoose). If your opponent is off to a slow start, Mongoose is going to get in for an early 1-4 damage, grand maximum - which is rather negligible too (compare it to one Goyf swing or note that it compares to the amount of damage you're going to take from fetches/Force of Will - and everyone is pretty much set on the fact that this amount of damage is totally negligible against anything but pure aggro [which is exactly where Nimble Mongoose is not going to turn sideways anyway]). This is even more true because modern builds are extremely slow at reaching Threshold... and by the time you reach Threshold, Nimble Mongoose is not going to do much either because you're that far into the game that real creatures have entered play.
Also, with regards to streamlining the curve, cutting as many one mana spells as you can afford to do without seriously damaging the deck improves your ability to fight through some of the most devastating hate out there - Chalice of the Void - which is awesome: being able to ignore hate you formerly had to address with your very limited amount of solutions by simple deck-building measures creates a form of virtual card advantage for you - you have effectively reduced the amount of threats your opponent has, allowing you to focus on any other threats he has in that matchup. More wins are sure to ensue as you can now focus your limited array of solutions on a less wide variety of threats meaning that in absolute terms you have just 'gained' solutions. The same logic applies to adding off colour basics to the deck: although they may create some theoretical problems and inconsistencies, they are worth it because they allow you to ignore hate (in this case recurring Wastelands and Blood Moon/Back to Basics) which you formerly had to address in order not to loose. This, again, leads to more wins.
On that same train of thought, cutting Nimble Mongoose for other non cmc1 cards also improves your main game-plan: Counterbalance. There are just not that many one mana cards out there that you want to or need to counter - it's the 2 and 3 mana slots you have to focus on because that's what your opponents real threats are going to cost. Therefore you want to max out on the amount of cards you play in those slots in order to be able to semi-reliably hit them blindly and in order to make sure that Brainstorm/Ponder/Sensei's Divining Top let you down as seldom as possible. I've seen lists with as little as 12 cards in the cmc2 slot and I can only say that playing such a list is complete folly: with a Counterbalance on the table you only have 11 cards at cmc2 left in your library meaning that you are in no way guaranteed to hit said cost, ever. Even if you have access to a cantrip and/or SdT. This greatly diminishes the power of Counterbalance and leads to less wins.
Another point I'd like to address is that I often hear people over-stressing Nimble Mongoose's shroud ability. For sure you can't handle that little sucker with spot removal, however, you don't have/want to handle it with spot-removal anyway: Nimble Mongoose is just, at no point in the game, relevant enough to 'waste' a spot-removal on it (i.e. you never want to go 1for1 just in order to get rid of a Mongoose). You can't handle it, but you don't have to do so either.
I look forward to your report :laugh: .Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
Just some thoughts: I have been running the new mana base you ran for a while now, and I will have to agree that it is much more effective than having 5 basics. And I agree with you all the way on your analysis of goose: I love the card, but it just isn't what it used to be.
My main question though is what was your thought process behind using monastery over enforcer? I know you mentioned mana problems, but why use something that produces colorless and is affected by graveyard hate (more so than enforcer). Additionally, do you miss having the 4cmc card for counterbalance? I mean it is rare that you will get anything with it due to it being a singleton/not a great number of decks that run 4cmc cards, but it is really nice to be able to catch that wrath/humility. I am just curious what your testing/thoughts are on the change.
Top 5 strongest cards ever printed:
1: Ancestral Recall
2. Black Lotus
3. Yawgmoth's Will
4. Tinker
5. Mishra's Workshop
You know why Natural Order is so good? Because it's friggin' Tinker man. And you get to run 3. Three copies of Tinker, holy Honolulu batman.
@Forbiddian:
Have you ever played Vintage?
Timmy Vintage player; W00T I'll play my Tink0r for Darksteel Colossus.
'Modern Legacy player 2009'; 11 indestructible is so danger of cool things, but I guess I lose this game to it. RANDOM! And last week I also lost to a Dreadnought Stifle, boy that was random too. You just got lucky n00b.
Basically, the reasoning that applies to Tinker, also applies to Natural Order. It's not the prefered method of kill as it can be hard to pull off, but it can just win you games where you are way behind on board position and/or handsize. Imagine a Counterbalance/Top lock on the other side of the table, normal UGW Thresh decks just lose to that. Natural Order still gives you a very realistic shot at pulling out that game. Having an 'Oops, I win' factor is just a really strong asset to have of a deck. It also helps you plow through any random matchups you might find in the earlier games of a tournament. At the same time, it will hardly ever cost you a game as the core of the deck is still a solid UGW Thresh build and Counterbalance/Top or Goyf still wins a bazillion games.
Also, you hardly open yourself up for 2 for 1's. This combo opens itself up way less than Dreadnought Stifle does which is exposed to StP and Kro Grip and that deck is one of the top performing decks the past year. Natural Order is just exposed to ehh, Force of Will? Just like EVERY card in Legacy. What else? Wrath of God, Counterspell? Yeah, I don't think so either. Daze
If Progenitus is stranded in your hand it pitches to FoW and yes you can shuffle it back with Brainstorm or just not draw it thanks to Top and Ponder.
Yo, I have played Progenitus Thresh at Mannheim, but I can say that Natural Order simply can't be compared to Tinker in several points:
1. It's SLOW AND CLUNKY! (this is relativized by the raw power it provides, ok)
2. You need green creatures which restricts the amount of decks in whcih you can play it.
3. You already need a boardposition/situation which is already slightly in your favor. Nat.Order for Progenitus does not save your ass when you will get beaten up by... let's say 7 Goblins or 12 Elves...
And now let's think again why Tinker is so powerful in Vintage:
1) Everyone - w/o any exception but Ichorid - plays SoLoMoxenCryptVault and maybe Chalice of the Void or Null Rod.
They can always win in a retarded manner via Tinker. True.
2) BUT in Vintage, you don't find much Aggro or removal in general. Just a few 1-2 bounce spells in a fist full of decks.
3) Tinker can be resolved 1st Turn and the acceleration serve as sac outlet here. And now compare the Moxen to Llanowar/Fyndhorn Elves, Noble Hierarch or Werebear. They are all far worse than Moxen.