Burn placed 2nd in another SCG Legacy Open:
Interesting choice of sideboard cards too. I personally like the inclusion of Leyline of the Void.
Cheers,
jares
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Burn placed 2nd in another SCG Legacy Open:
Interesting choice of sideboard cards too. I personally like the inclusion of Leyline of the Void.
Cheers,
jares
I used to run Void in the SB; it's honestly very clunky at best. If you happen to get it in your opening hand (or on a mull to 6), then everything's fine and wonderful. However, if you don't, you now have 4 very, very dead cards in your deck (which you're likely to draw over a real burn spell). IMO, Tormod's Crypt is more skill dependent, but does exactly what you need it to, and isn't a dead draw when you topdeck it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
I certainly agree that Tormod's Crypt is much more skill-dependent, simply because of the Nature of all Leylines. I personally use a 2-2 split between Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt. It's worth considering, though, that going all-in with Leyline of the Void might be our best chance against the graveyard-centric decks (e.g. Reanimator, Dredge).Quote:
Originally Posted by conankudo4
I guess that we could possibly simplify it this way:
- What are our chances of beating Reanimator and Dredge if we were keep an opening hand without graveyard hate? I believe that the answer to that is "slim" (given Iona, Shield of Emeria on Turn 2 for Reanimator, or FKZ + Zombies on Turn 2 for Dredge).
- If we were to insist on having hate in our opening hand, then I don't think that there's a better choice for hate other than Leyline of the Void.
Of course, not all of us will prefer banking on "luck" (the better term might be "probability") when going against these match-ups.
Kind Regards,
jares
Why does he play Reroute? I'd think more artifact destruction would have been way better.Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
I honestly don't know. I can't think of something specific that would make Reroute worth boarding-in...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
Anyone else with an idea for this sideboard choice?
Kind Regards,
jares
Grindstone? Belcher?Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
There you go :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Suneloon
Thanks! Could there possibly anything else?
Cheers,
jares
top, relic,crypt, stoneforge mystic, snapcaster mage.
there are a lot of targets for it.
playing it would take a lot of people by surprise.
SFM has a triggered ability and thats what you really care about there. Snapcaster Mage is also a triggered ability and it only 'Reroutes' activated abilities. This deck also doesn't need to deal with graveyard hate at all. Grindstone and Belcher are the only ones and Grindstone doesn't really kill often on turn 4 and thats when you are gold fishing them anyway. Belcher drops its 6/7 on turn 1 and they're win conditions is more likely than not going to be EtW/Burning Wish, a 7/11 ratio.
He was basically playing with a 13 card sideboard. Also, Leyline of the Void might be an interesting SB choice but both Ichorid and Reanimator can kill you before turn 3. Mulliganing into oblivion for it is obviously not a consistent option if you want to race them. I think Relics or Crypts would have been a way better choice here. It looks like he threw together his SB at the last minute if you ask me.
i stand corrected.Quote:
SFM has a triggered ability and thats what you really care about there. Snapcaster Mage is also a triggered ability and it only 'Reroutes' activated abilities.
thanks.
It does look like the Reroutes were unwise sideboard slots. I still can't think of a justification for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
Regarding the considerations vs. Reanimator/Dredge, I would like to ask of it is likely for us to keep an opening hand without game-changing hate in it (i.e. how often would we be able to keep an opening hand that would allow us to win, even without graveyard hate?).
Kind Regards,
jares
A solid Burn hand can sometimes race Dredge and Reanimator by turn 3. I played against my friends Burn deck a while back and he was pretty consistently gold fishing me on turn 3. So Burn is still a threat to those decks, especially if Burn wins the coin toss. I'd say you don't mulligan for hate with Burn because half of your creatures disappear after you play them. Unless you get a couple Goblin Guides online with your hate, I think its better to hope you topdeck the hate and keep your opening 7 and try to shoot for the turn 3 against those matchups (that is if you only play 4 Leyline). Or just play 7-8 Relic/Crypt since Ichorid and Reanimator are favored here. Granted Hellspark Elementals and Marauders get rid of Bridges but thats on turn 2 or 3 by the time they've already won or produced a winning position.
I would like for us to quantify the value of what you're referring to as "sometimes", as that will help us determine if that value is greater than the probability of getting graveyard hate in the opening hand (also considering the probability that your opponent can draw an answer to the hate). I'll try to post some figures when I have the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
You are correct in stating that Turn-3 is Burn's Fundamental Turn, but take note that Reanimator's Fundamental Turn against us is Turn-2 (via Iona, Shield of Emeria; Mono-Black Reanimator has it at Turn-1), and LED Dredge's Fundamental Turn is Turn-1. Based on these facts, it's obvious to me that racing these decks is not the wisest thing to do, simply because they have the upper hand in terms of speed.
In addition, note that both these decks have built-in disruption against us in the form of counterspells (Daze, Force of Will) and discard (Cabal Therapy) - we normally don't have built-in disruption vs. Reanimator, while our dying creatures can help against Dredge a bit (somewhat minimally, given that these creatures die at sorcery speed unless we waste our spells to kill them, in addition to the points that you've already noted).
In summary, I don't think it's difficult to see that it's more likely for Burn to lose to Reanimator and Dredge if we were to race them. We're more likely to win if we were to depend on our graveyard hate - and the probability of "top-decking" your hate is much smaller when compared to actually opting to mulligan for it. I'll try to post some numbers for these too, just in case anyone else might remain skeptical.
Kind Regards,
jares
I play test against Dredge a lot. my best friend runs it exclusively. With sideboard in, if I do not open with hate, it is 75% auto lose. the fact that a few of our creatures die, is almost irrelevant, since they both die on our own turn. Dredge doesnt care about our turn. they only need two Bridges, and normally only need to be able to draw(dredge) three cards to go off. once, they set up... on their first turn, their second turn is lethal more often than not.
my favorite grave hate is, 3 Faerie Macabre 1 Surgical Extraction. I dont like 2 and 2, and I want to have more Macabre than Surgical.
Macabre cannot be countered, I would rather try and fight off a Stifle than any of the 8-12 counterspell decks that some gravebased decks use. against Reanimator Macabre is more than enough. against Dredge, adding the fact that we can tag our own creatures, along with the Macabre, is usually all I need.
Faerie Macabre really seems to be the ideal solution. They only have the option of Stifling the discard ability, which is unlikely unless they board it in. The advantages would be it is un-counterable unlike Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus which is the ideal use of Reanimator's Force of Will.
I suppose the large disadvantage is you don't want to only get rid of Iona, Shield of Emeria in the long run, but also Empyrial Archangel and Sphinx of the Steel Wind. Which would make Leyline the ideal choice. But Leyline is very fragile to Echoing Truch and Wipe away or any bounce spell. I only hate Leyline because if it isn't an opening card its a dead draw and Burn cannot afford to have dead draws.
Its a difficult choice honestly... I think I may dedicate an additional slot or two to graveyard hate, maybe Surgical Extraction?
Sup guys I have been running Austin Yost's decklist and all I can say that it is NUTS!!!:tongue::tongue::tongue: Anyways, just a quick question has anyone tried faithless looting as a 2-3 off in the burn list? It has synergy with hellspark and barbarian ring and we need those draws to have fresh new hands, I have tested this deck and sometimes you get mana flood top draws in the midgame when you need burn spells badly to finish your oponent off. Tnks for your thoughts and opinion on this one.
NOTE: I dont like using magma jet - it is slow and cost 2 red manas and only puts your chosen card on top of the library unlike looting cards you chose is in your hand.
Faithless Looting (I believe) has no place in the deck.
You do not need to discard cards at any point, so the drawing ability isnt worth it.
a top deck Looting does nothing for you.
at best all it would do is fix a situation. if you have a few dead spells, maybe extra lands, and what have you, you can exchange cards, but really, those situations are not that bad.
If you were going to run Looting you would do so because you want to fix those situations, and Sensei's Divining Top is infinitely better (in my opinion).
I agree with the point where Faithless Looting does not fit with the Burn game plan. Think about it this way: if Faithless Looting is there to "filter" the dead cards you have in hand (which may or may not be there), wouldn't another burn spell in its place have achieved the same thing in searching for a non-dead card? On top of that, you also spent one mana to do something unnecessary, which will likely cost you the game given that Burn is highly affected by the Tempo of a game.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo
The minor synergy with Barbarian Ring and Hellspark Elemental helps ease the rough edges of how Faithless Looting wants to fit with the deck, but take note that these points aren't really part of the Major Game Plan of what Burn tries to achieve as an archetype. As a deck that is designed based on a hyper-linear strategy, we can't afford to be sidetracked by these minor details.
For future reference, kindly note that these points have already been discussed in this forum, and it would be beneficial to do some back-reading whenever possible.
Kind Regards,
jares
I have a two card slot open in my deck. I currently run two Sulfuric Vortex. I do not like the card. It wins games where it should, but it also loses me games where I should.
It is extremely effective against Batterskull, as usual the life gain kills us.
I could care less about taking 4-5 damage a turn. That is 4-5 turns of damage, a turn after they cast the card. If I cannot win in that time then I have no business winning that game anyway.
Other than that though, the card just has problems. It is slow, costs 3 (which being a lifelong Pox player I never thought a 3 casting cost card would make me so upset, but it does.)
I run pretty close to the same list everyone else does. Although I do 4 of Hellspark and Marauders, I also run a tandem Lavamancer.
The real main difference is I do not run Flamerift, I wont argue about it, there are two types of Burn players. Players for or against Flamerift. I just do not like dealing myself 4 damage. It is not necessary, plus I believe it helps me in the mirror.
Magma Jet is no option, neither is Incinerate, or Shock.
I was actually honestly thinking of Mogg Fanatic. a One drop, that kills of an unflipped Delver, Nobel Hierarchic, Hellspark, Birds of Paradise, any Elf, all of which need to be dealt with, and it saves big Burn. But in thinking this way, I am not sure if I am just over thinking it. And in turn missing just running more effective Burn, but that is the problem, removing the non options I listed, I cannot think of any other effective Burn.
Maybe I should just run a 2 of Flame Rift.
I love Sulfuric Vortex. It is clunky, yes but it does help to win games that we normally can't win. It is not a card that you want to have multiples of in the first 7 but it isn't a dead card on draw. It stacks so 4 damage a turn is hell of a clock.
I started with 2 Flame Rifts but now I play the whole set. I don't like Flame Rift before and now I am still not its biggest fan. It is however confirmed 4 damage for 2 mana, assuming no counters. Like Sulfuric Vortex, it does get us through a Leyline. Contrast with Marauders, with is confirmed 2 and max 5 damage for 2 mana. I would say it is decent.
Mogg Fanatic : NO WAY. Not interested in killing creatures, not unless it is going to kill me. I, however maindeck another rather clunky card: Volcanic Fallout to deal with those pesky tribals and delvers, etc.
//Creatures
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
2 Keldon Marauders
//Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
2 Volcanic Fallout
//Sorcery
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift
//Enchantment
2 Sulfuric Vortex
//Lands
17 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring
//Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Volcanic Fallout
3 Chaos Warp
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
Comments, thoughts and criticisms the most needed.