[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

Now that I've needlessly added my own annotations to Kevin's response to someone other than me (because I'm nosy like that), I have to ask what is so good about Master of the Wild Hunt? I mean yeah, it's a great bomb that must be answered, but it does nothing immediately, which means it can be answered immediately with no lingering effects. Even if it lives long enough to pop out a wolf and either spot-remove a DRS, SFM, Bob, etc., it lacks the same impact that Huntmaster of the Fells flipped once or Squallmonger/Ifh-Biff Efreet with so much open mana has, and certainly lacks the staying power that Thrun has.

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Few comments for your comments, which I'm going to suck out of that big wall of text:

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Originally Posted by ELC

Note: Might I suggest Harmonic Sliver as well? Or has that tech gone the wayside?

Note: While I agree Swords is amazing right now, I suggest swapping Vindicate for Oblivion Ring or Angel of Despair: Show and Tell decks just love it when you Show them one of these and Tell them their Omniscience, Sneak Attack, Emrakul, Griselbrand, etc. just bit the dust. Plus, lands aren't scary for this deck, so if neither of those, go with Maelstrom Pulse.

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Sliver is a fine sideboard option. Unless your meta is DROWNED in Stoneblade, though, I can't imagine wanting both Sliver and Qasali maindeck....or MUD, but if your meta has that much MUD, you shouldn't be playing this deck anyway if you want to win.

I have exactly the other opinion on Vindicate. If anything, I'd cut 1 Swords for 1 Pulse, so that you would have a removal suite of 3/1/1. Vindicate is very important, because it lets you kill problem lands. Things like Academy Ruins can provide an enormous problem. Also, looping Vindicate through Witness with Nightmare is big game. I won a game at Jupiter on Saturday this way, by screwing my opponent completely off of red mana. Every time he hit a red source, he didn't have a red source anymore.

@Master of the Wild Hunt: Master is good here because he's another token-maker to abuse with Trostani, who is my favorite engine in straight Rock builds of Nic Fit. I'll grant that he has to live a turn, but once he does, he's absurd. He can field an entire board state by himself -- see vs Miracles in my feature match, where I forced my opponent to trade a sweeper 1-for-1 with him. He's also a 4-drop threat, which Nic Fit in general is really light on. You've basically got Thrun, Master of the Wild Hunt, and Chameleon Colossus as options for 4-drop green dudes. That's about it. I've never, ever liked Thrun. Chameleon is fine, but IMO Master synergizes better with the deck. If you have more Lightning Bolts in your meta, you probably want to go for Chameleon. But most metas are awash with Abrupt Decay, in which case Master is better, because it does something other than just beat for a ton.

Note that I also have a higher opinion of Master from Rector, since in Rector he's another way to "sacrifice."

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Few comments for your comments, which I'm going to suck out of that big wall of text:


Sliver is a fine sideboard option. Unless your meta is DROWNED in Stoneblade, though, I can't imagine wanting both Sliver and Qasali maindeck....or MUD, but if your meta has that much MUD, you shouldn't be playing this deck anyway if you want to win.

I have exactly the other opinion on Vindicate. If anything, I'd cut 1 Swords for 1 Pulse, so that you would have a removal suite of 3/1/1. Vindicate is very important, because it lets you kill problem lands. Things like Academy Ruins can provide an enormous problem. Also, looping Vindicate through Witness with Nightmare is big game. I won a game at Jupiter on Saturday this way, by screwing my opponent completely off of red mana. Every time he hit a red source, he didn't have a red source anymore.

@Master of the Wild Hunt: Master is good here because he's another token-maker to abuse with Trostani, who is my favorite engine in straight Rock builds of Nic Fit. I'll grant that he has to live a turn, but once he does, he's absurd. He can field an entire board state by himself -- see vs Miracles in my feature match, where I forced my opponent to trade a sweeper 1-for-1 with him. He's also a 4-drop threat, which Nic Fit in general is really light on. You've basically got Thrun, Master of the Wild Hunt, and Chameleon Colossus as options for 4-drop green dudes. That's about it. I've never, ever liked Thrun. Chameleon is fine, but IMO Master synergizes better with the deck. If you have more Lightning Bolts in your meta, you probably want to go for Chameleon. But most metas are awash with Abrupt Decay, in which case Master is better, because it does something other than just beat for a ton.

Note that I also have a higher opinion of Master from Rector, since in Rector he's another way to "sacrifice."

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Ah . . . the first rule of Nic Fit: synergy trumps power, and both combined beats either. In that case, I can see how Master of the Wild Hunt would be good.

However, I still prefer Thrun over Master in my list, if only because of amazing synergy with Batterskull (herpderpswing!) and Jace, the Mind Sculptor/other Walkers (guards them quite nicely with 1G open). He's also a nice Terminus magnet (doubt this is really relevant any more though). The only problem I have with Thrun is that he loses a lot of value if you GSZ for him against blue-heavy decks.

When I played master he just dominates games if he goes unanswered. If the meta is largely creature based he is probably the best choice

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

Ah . . . the first rule of Nic Fit: synergy trumps power, and both combined beats either. In that case, I can see how Master of the Wild Hunt would be good.

However, I still prefer Thrun over Master in my list, if only because of amazing synergy with Batterskull (herpderpswing!) and Jace, the Mind Sculptor/other Walkers (guards them quite nicely with 1G open). He's also a nice Terminus magnet (doubt this is really relevant any more though). The only problem I have with Thrun is that he loses a lot of value if you GSZ for him against blue-heavy decks.

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Yeah, I definitely agree. For your deck, Thrun is fine. I'm still not sure that I would personally run him in a similar list, but I recognize that is largely because of personal bias on my part. I just don't like the guy. Doesn't mean that I can't recognize and accept his presence in your build.

I'll admit 2 Thrun may be too much but I've always liked having the second agaisnt the perish decks.
I have never ever been disappointed when landing a Thrun or Grave Titan. Titan has amazing synergy with Recurring Nightmare. Against a BUG player once I had a GT, 2 zombies and Recurring Nightmare in play. I swung and he animated both his Factories, put them in front of the Titan and activated them to make them trade with the Titan. Main phase 2 I played veteran explorer saced it to Nightmare and got back my Titan. That prompted the concession. Thrun is just a house especially against the Stonebalde decks where they can't Jace bounce him, they can't Swords him, and he stands in front of Batterskulls and says "Come at me Bro."

I hadn't given much thought to Harmonic Sliver. Sliver is very good where as Elder offers another big body. And you can never have enough redundant abilities.

I liked having the Vindicate against the Planewalker decks but I can see your argument for O-Ring. The Sneak and Show decks are probably my worst match up. Plus O-Ring can still take out a Jace and can be recurred with Sun Titan. But I do like the fact that Vindicate can hit problem lands. O-Ring also might not be bad in the board. I took a page out of Mavericks book and have an Enlighted Tutor board.

I wanted to see if deathrite Shaman was a good fit for the deck as one of my friends was trying to argue that he was. Obvioulsy the deck revolves aroung Veteran Explorer so i could justify adding shaman in place of him.

I hadn't thought of Sigarda either and that adds ALOT of power. I do like the idea of her.

Liliana has never let me down and can quickly take over games. Also works very well agains the show and tell decks at making them sac their Eldrazi.

I was running 3 deed and found I actually like running 2 better. especually when i use the Enlightened Tutor side board. if i leave in the Deed i can tutor for it.

I tried running Rector a while back when RUG was super dominatnt and they would just stifle the ablility.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

When I played master he just dominates games if he goes unanswered. If the meta is largely creature based he is probably the best choice

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Ah! There's some very good insight right there!

Thrun is great against control, as it turns off all of their spot removal and forces them to use their sweepers if they really need to deal with him.
Master is great against aggro/tempo/midrange, as it turns off all of their utility weenie creatures and even random wincons like Goblin Piledriver
And then you have Chameleon Colossus, which I believe would be awesome against combo provided you can disrupt them before sticking him. Swinging for 8 will end games quickly, which is good against Combo since the longer the game goes on, the better their chances of recovering.

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Originally Posted by ZimAshe

I wanted to see if deathrite Shaman was a good fit for the deck as one of my friends was trying to argue that he was. Obvioulsy the deck revolves aroung Veteran Explorer so i could justify adding shaman in place of him.

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Sorry for being blunt, but this is a bad decision. The Veteran Explorer+Cabal Therapy interaction is the backbone of this archetype, and without it, this deck is just a slower Junk, Jund, Team America, or Rock.

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

Ah! There's some very good insight right there!

Thrun is great against control, as it turns off all of their spot removal and forces them to use their sweepers if they really need to deal with him.
Master is great against aggro/tempo/midrange, as it turns off all of their utility weenie creatures and even random wincons like Goblin Piledriver
And then you have Chameleon Colossus, which I believe would be awesome against combo provided you can disrupt them before sticking him. Swinging for 8 will end games quickly, which is good against Combo since the longer the game goes on, the better their chances of recovering.

EDIT:



Sorry for being blunt, but this is a bad decision. The Veteran Explorer+Cabal Therapy interaction is the backbone of this archetype, and without it, this deck is just a slower Junk, Jund, Team America, or Rock.

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yeah that was a typo on my part. could should've been couldn't.
I was thinking Shaman could be a 1 of in the deck and GSZ target. A good way to get value our of exiling spells from the graveyard other than with just Ooze.

Also what do we think about Spirit Monger or is he just not good anymore? I remember running him in my old Extended Rock deck back in the day. Just trying to find and excuse to brush him off and play him again i guess.

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Originally Posted by ZimAshe

yeah that was a typo on my part. could should've been couldn't.
I was thinking Shaman could be a 1 of in the deck and GSZ target. A good way to get value our of exiling spells from the graveyard other than with just Ooze.

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My bad lol.

Anyhow, 1 to 2 is good. Not sure what I'd swap for it in your list though :/

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

My bad lol.

Anyhow, 1 to 2 is good. Not sure what I'd swap for it in your list though :/

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No worries :D

Yeah, like I stated earlier in the thread the list is pretty tight. the only change I've made so far is the one i made last night where I -1 Eternal Witness to +1 Fierce Empath. i was finding that some games I couldn't get to my Titans fast enough and Having the Empath I'm hoping will get me there faster.

I could cut an Ooze for a Shaman but I think I like the idea of having 2 Oozes in the deck.

Actually, now that you mention Ooze, I believe dropping him to one would allow you to make room for one DRS.

The reason behind this is that with four GSZ you'd still have five effective copies of Ooze in your list, and having multiple Oozes out is redundancy at its worst.

Updated List:

I will run this on Sunday and respond back here.

Junk Nic Fit (GWB Explorer)

Creatures:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Wall of Blossoms
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witeness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Fierce Empath
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Thragtusk
1x Grave Titan
1x Sun Titan

Spells:
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Skeletal Scrying
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Vindicate

Lands:
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Choke
2x Engineered Plague
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Extirpate
1x Kitchen finks
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Oblivion Ring

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Damn people posting while I am :P

Deathrite would occupy one of the Scavenging Ooze slots if you really want him. He's been kind of underwhelming to everyone in here who's tried him, though.

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Ooze is so much better then DRS in nicft. Obviously it simply pants dredge, against tribal decks it single handedly out classes anything they can drop if you have a couple of open green and dudes in the yard (except combo elves). It stops recursion of any form, and the life gain from Ooze is the cherry on top (but I dislike cherries so lets say pecans with some caramel drizzle). So it can't ramp but in a deck that is meant to hard cast 6 drops 99/100 that is not an issue.

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Originally Posted by moseby

Ooze is so much better then DRS in nicft. Obviously it simply pants dredge, against tribal decks it single handedly out classes anything they can drop if you have a couple of open green and dudes in the yard (except combo elves). It stops recursion of any form, and the life gain from Ooze is the cherry on top (but I dislike cherries so lets say pecans with some caramel drizzle). So it can't ramp but in a deck that is meant to hard cast 6 drops 99/100 that is not an issue.

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not disputing the power level of Ooze he is awesome. I like him better than Goyfe honestly. But Deathrite offers another avanue especially against the spell heavy decks like BUG Control. It's just a way to get value out of removing the instants and soceries from an opponents graveyard where as in the case of Ooze he would just exile them and there would be no benefit other than the spells not being there.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I have exactly the other opinion on Vindicate. If anything, I'd cut 1 Swords for 1 Pulse, so that you would have a removal suite of 3/1/1. Vindicate is very important, because it lets you kill problem lands. Things like Academy Ruins can provide an enormous problem. Also, looping Vindicate through Witness with Nightmare is big game. I won a game at Jupiter on Saturday this way, by screwing my opponent completely off of red mana. Every time he hit a red source, he didn't have a red source anymore.

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What wold the benefit be to running Maelstrom Pulse over say a second Vndicate? just curious?

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Originally Posted by moseby

Ooze is so much better then DRS in nicft. Obviously it simply pants dredge, against tribal decks it single handedly out classes anything they can drop if you have a couple of open green and dudes in the yard (except combo elves). It stops recursion of any form, and the life gain from Ooze is the cherry on top (but I dislike cherries so lets say pecans with some caramel drizzle). So it can't ramp but in a deck that is meant to hard cast 6 drops 99/100 that is not an issue.

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I wouldn't personally run either; I'm just saying that if he REALLY wants DRS, then one of the 2 Oozes is where he finds the room.

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Originally Posted by ZimAshe

What wold the benefit be to running Maelstrom Pulse over say a second Vndicate? just curious?

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Multiples, and tokens specifically. Being able to randomly mana screw people when the situation happens is fine, but I wouldn't go too deep on Vindicate just because of that functionality. It's just a tool in the deck's utility belt, like anything else. Pulse is actually better in the abstract because it kills tokens and multiples -- if you're staring down 2x Goyf, or 4 Lingering Souls tokens, then you want Pulse. If you're vs a Thopter deck, or Esperblade, and they're locking you down with Ruins + Batterskull, or Ruins + Thopter Foundry, then you're going to want a Vindicate. One of these things happens more commonly than the other, which is why Pulse is better. But it's better to have both in some capacity, since you can reuse them later via Witness, and ultimately via Nightmare+Witness.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

. . .But it's better to have both in some capacity, since you can reuse them later via Witness, and ultimately via Nightmare+Witness.

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I often find that I have trouble finding them. If you're running a singleton Maelstrom Pulse and a singleton Vindicate, like I see a lot of lists, how do tutor up the one you need when you need it?

the one thing I keep in mind about Vindicate is that it reads "target permanent", not "target non-land permanent". Just something to think about if Karakas or something of the sort is irritating you.

I've seen varrying amounts of Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate & Abrupt Decay. Is there any standard amounts of each of these? Or is it just trial and error?

A few things.

I have not played this deck since RTR, but I would run DRS as a 1 of as an alternate ramp source, similar to what durward ran Natures Lore for.

I would be on 2 Abrupt Decay and 2 Maelstrom Pulse (most likely) because this deck is somewhat weak to Jace, which Decay does not hit. We do not need Decay as much as other decks due to Pernicious Deed ruining their day. Deed does not in deed (HA!) hit JTMS or other walkers which we are weak to.

I have stated and it has been discussed to death about Liliana, but I personally love this card to death and would not run less then 2 (in a straight GB list).

Edit: Talking about this deck... Man I miss it. I really want to play this again.

I'm still on straight GB until I get the rest of the pieces to play Scapewish, and I've been satisfied but not especially impressed with Deathrite Shaman. He's a very useful piece of alternative ramp but he dies to our Pernicious Deeds, which sucks. I still play 2 but I've been happier with 1-of Sakura-Tribe Elder as a piece of dedicated ramp. As said Deathrite Shaman does have a lot of utility in addition to mana, so having 1-2 in the deck for a Zenith target is very good, but you can't rely on him as your ramp source necessarily. People tend to kill him as soon as they can, so keeping a hand reliant on him for mana is not good. I'd try out 1 Sakura-Tribe Elder. He's really good.

That said, Deathrite does a very nice job of drawing out the StP that would otherwise be aimed at our explorers when played on turn 1.

Also at the Disenchant/Creature discussion, have you considered Acidic Slime? It gets a lot of the problem cards that you otherwise need Vindicate for, is tutorable via GSZ, and nukes an Omniscience off of Show and Tell if you're worried about that.

Has anybody tried Attrition in Rectorfit? That is the only version I have been toying around with. I always keep my eye on bullets for the board. I know we have Deed but with Master of the Wild Hunt, Garruk (some lists), Grave Titan (some lists, I think he can be solid in Rectorfit because of R.Nightmare), and of course Rector and Veteran Explorer. I am not too lazy to test but if you can shoot me down, please do :)

Does anyone knows how to battle with Sneak/Show Deck? other than Slaughter Games/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy is there other way to shut it down?

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Originally Posted by kabards

Does anyone knows how to battle with Sneak/Show Deck? other than Slaughter Games/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy is there other way to shut it down?

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you can try Pithing Needle naming sneak attack.
there is also Oblivion Ring and a lot of people have been using Angel of Despair because she can destroy Emrakul and omniscience and give you something to clock them with.

RE: Deathrite Shaman. I've been pleased with him in my lists. He's a great utility dude, but the most important reason I run him is as another way to cast Memoricide/Slaughter Games on turn 3. Very relevant if you can't set off an Explorer.

RE: Sneak and Show. In addition to the discard/extractions, REBs counter Show and Tell. That's about it. It's not a great matchup and if they have Leyline it's way harder. Discard will normally get you there otherwise and they can't really beat Slaughter Games without Leyline.

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Originally Posted by MrIggins

I'm still on straight GB until I get the rest of the pieces to play Scapewish, and I've been satisfied but not especially impressed with Deathrite Shaman. He's a very useful piece of alternative ramp but he dies to our Pernicious Deeds, which sucks. I still play 2 but I've been happier with 1-of Sakura-Tribe Elder as a piece of dedicated ramp. As said Deathrite Shaman does have a lot of utility in addition to mana, so having 1-2 in the deck for a Zenith target is very good, but you can't rely on him as your ramp source necessarily. People tend to kill him as soon as they can, so keeping a hand reliant on him for mana is not good. I'd try out 1 Sakura-Tribe Elder. He's really good.

That said, Deathrite does a very nice job of drawing out the StP that would otherwise be aimed at our explorers when played on turn 1.

Also at the Disenchant/Creature discussion, have you considered Acidic Slime? It gets a lot of the problem cards that you otherwise need Vindicate for, is tutorable via GSZ, and nukes an Omniscience off of Show and Tell if you're worried about that.

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I started off GB too but found the GBW build much more versatile. plus it give you access to the best spot removal in the format; StP.

Arianrhod, have you considered Serene Remembrance as part of the Scapewish wishboard? I am thinking of placing this rather than placing extirpates in the SB

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=366269

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Originally Posted by Oiolosse

Has anybody tried Attrition in Rectorfit? That is the only version I have been toying around with. I always keep my eye on bullets for the board. I know we have Deed but with Master of the Wild Hunt, Garruk (some lists), Grave Titan (some lists, I think he can be solid in Rectorfit because of R.Nightmare), and of course Rector and Veteran Explorer. I am not too lazy to test but if you can shoot me down, please do :)

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I've tried Attrition once or twice, but not done any serious testing with it. The biggest problem that I had with it was its awkward timing. Like, it's one of the best sac outlets for Rector there is -- but usually, you're only getting it AFTER having sac'd a Rector. Attrition also suffers as an option from Abrupt Decay. It's definitely not a bad card, it's just kind of .... awkward. Consider these options in the same vein:

Martyr's Bond
Grave Pact

Both of them do similar things to Attrition, but don't suffer Abrupt Decay, and are perfectly fine AFTER you sac Rector. Martyr's Bond in particular has almost made it into my deck so many times. I keep seeing it on one of my enchantment option pages in my binder, and I keep being frustrated by it because I WANT to use it, but I can never seem to find the space for it.

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Originally Posted by kabards

Does anyone knows how to battle with Sneak/Show Deck? other than Slaughter Games/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy is there other way to shut it down?

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Depends on your version. Rector is actually unhealthily good at slaying Sneak/Show. Some of that may be intentional because I REALLY hate that deck, but I actually count Sneak/Show as a positive matchup; albeit it one that you're on the edge of your seat for the whole time. Rector has the following lines of attack:

Humility (via Show, cast when safe, or Rectoring in off of Emrakul trigger/normal means)
Cranial/Memoricide (namin' ur doooooods)
Extirpate (usually going after enablers, since you actively Therapy them)
Therapy (name Show and Tell first. Always! Then aim for Sneak if they have one)
Baneslayer (via Show, "counters" Griselbrand)
Sigarda (via Show, "counter" Emrakul)
Faith's Fetters (via Rector, pref. with a Phy Tower or Rusalka)

Showing Baneslayer/Sigarda is kind of a crap shoot, since you have to guess which thing they're putting out (assuming you have the option between both), but I've made a lot of Sneak/Show players very, very angry by putting out a Baneslayer vs their Griselbrand. Protection from Demons is a bitch.

If you're running Enlightened Tutor in the board, this is an option as well: Blind Obedience. Shuts down Sneak Attack completely, while having fringe uses elsewhere (Storm, namely).

BUG versions have access to things like Sower of Temptation and counterspells to fight back alongside their usual disruption.

Red versions, then, are the losers. Red versions DO have Slaughter Games, which is more potent than Cranial/Memoricide since they can't counter it OR Misdirect it. SGames WILL take something important from them. However, you need to live to the point where you can resolve one, which means you're basically all in on Therapy. The only Show and Tell target of relevance in the deck is Primeval Titan -- nothing else is worth it, unless you're experimenting with Olivia. Depending on the turn that they Show, Olivia may or may not do anything. If you Show Olivia and can just untap and take their dood, then that's awesome -- but it's not very likely to happen. REBs can help vs Show and Tell, but Red is basically kold to Sneak Attack.

On a side note, people have made the comparison of Scapewish to something like a new-age Aggro Loam, and honestly I can see it. Both are jund-colored decks that absolutely molest other fair decks, but struggle against combo to the point where it may not even be worth fighting it. I'm not sure how PFire fits in there, but I'm inclined to say that PFire should have a better combo matchup than Scapewish since you have room for an actual legit sideboard, and since your maindeck is set up to annihilate fair decks, you should be able to dedicate like your entire sideboard to various forms of combo.

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Originally Posted by unemployer

Arianrhod, have you considered Serene Remembrance as part of the Scapewish wishboard? I am thinking of placing this rather than placing extirpates in the SB

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=366269

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I have not, and that is definitely an interesting option. My question becomes, what would you wish for it against? Considering that it's sorcery-speed, you're not going to get Reanimator targets very often -- and against Reanimator (and dredge) it's usually better to wish for Reanimate if you're given the opportunity to hit their graveyard. Also, against Dredge, only hitting 3 cards is not usually going to do enough.

I'm not dismissing it out of hand -- it's a genuinely interesting option that I hadn't noticed in the spoiler. I'm just bricking on when it would be more useful than some other options.

Yeah, thinking the same actually. I was just looking at the cards in GTC and found that in particular. Unfortunately, I never brought the Reanimate because of our meta here and the part that it is a sorcery makes me think like meh but I am thinking of better boards in the Scapewish version. Our meta here is a little bit messed up, BUG and Jund are rising but the SnT are showing again! Ergo, I am shifting my boards for the new meta and hope for the best. Hopefully, I get to play better in the next coming weeks.

Btw, while we're on the subject of random wish targets, if anyone is having trouble with Burn while using Scapewish, here's a pair of juicy sideboard options for you guys:

Fruition
Wandering Stream

So due to some budget issues I'm going to go ahead and just play straight up BG first. Anybody wanna comment on my deck list below?

3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Acidic Slime
2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Vampire Nighthawk - Saw this guy in one of the decks that top 8'd recently, and since I have him might as well try :) Or should I just put in Strangleroot Geist?

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring Nightmare

SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 4 Duress - I refuse to pay for Thoughtseizes. Gets sided in against combo anyway and it hits most, if not all, key spells.
SB: 3 Engineered Plague

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Originally Posted by sherko7

So due to some budget issues I'm going to go ahead and just play straight up BG first. Anybody wanna comment on my deck list below?

3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Acidic Slime
2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Vampire Nighthawk - Saw this guy in one of the decks that top 8'd recently, and since I have him might as well try :) Or should I just put in Strangleroot Geist?

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring Nightmare

SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 4 Duress - I refuse to pay for Thoughtseizes. Gets sided in against combo anyway and it hits most, if not all, key spells.
SB: 3 Engineered Plague

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I am not a huge fan of the fierce empath. One of your empath targets is already Zenithable. Also 4 tops is a bit much imo. 3 at most. And Im a fan of Wickerbough Elder > Acidic Slime personally.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sherko7

So due to some budget issues I'm going to go ahead and just play straight up BG first. Anybody wanna comment on my deck list below?

3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Acidic Slime
2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Vampire Nighthawk - Saw this guy in one of the decks that top 8'd recently, and since I have him might as well try :) Or should I just put in Strangleroot Geist?

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring Nightmare

SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 4 Duress - I refuse to pay for Thoughtseizes. Gets sided in against combo anyway and it hits most, if not all, key spells.
SB: 3 Engineered Plague

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I agree with Megadeus. Empath only finds you Grave Titan because your other Titan is green and therefore can be found with GSZ. I would replace Empath with a Kitchen Finks.
I would also use Wickerbourgh over Slime due to that fact that he offers more of a clock than slime does. although the argument could be made that slime affers more versatility in the ability to target a land as well. Slime also having deathtouch means it can trade with an apposing Goyfe, however the likely hood of that Slime not getting bolted prior to combat is slim.
I would also cut a Top, maybe add another piece of removal in that spot like dismember.

Edit:

Quote:

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3 Vampire Nighthawk - Saw this guy in one of the decks that top 8'd recently, and since I have him might as well try :) Or should I just put in Strangleroot Geist?

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Nighthawk is actually an interesting choice here. i'm not sure which is better geist or hawk but i's be interested to see the results of nighthawk in some testing.

Im more of a fan of GFTT as a spot removal spell. Anything our Deed hits probably also hits whatever Dismember will hit, but sometimes GFTT hits something sweet like Griselbrand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sherko7

So due to some budget issues I'm going to go ahead and just play straight up BG first. Anybody wanna comment on my deck list below?

3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Acidic Slime
2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Vampire Nighthawk - Saw this guy in one of the decks that top 8'd recently, and since I have him might as well try :) Or should I just put in Strangleroot Geist?

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring Nightmare

SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 4 Duress - I refuse to pay for Thoughtseizes. Gets sided in against combo anyway and it hits most, if not all, key spells.
SB: 3 Engineered Plague

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Try this list

Creatures : 14

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thragtusk
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Grave Titan

Spells : 24

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Recurring Nightmare

Lands : 22

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
4 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Treetop Village
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard :

3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Duress
2 Ensnaring Bridge / Diabolic Edict <-- for Show and Tell dec.
2 Extirpate / Surgical Extraction
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Go for the throat
1 Dismember

Why not try HoneyT's list a few pages back? It's straight BG.

Anyhow, in my quest to figure out which counterspell to use to disrupt SnT, Storm, and Elves, I happened to reread Arianrhod's analysis of the upcoming metagame and came to question Carpet of Flower's usefulness against these kinds of decks.

I've tried HoneyT's list a bit, but I think for now I'd rather try and mix and match with what I already have/about to have and then fine tune it to my taste. :smile:

The argument about Empath is good, and I'll cut that. Acidic Slime breaks shit and will eat removal, so personally that's fine with me, but I'll probably try Wickerbrough Elder too see what that could do.

I personally don't like the Planeswalkers much, sure when they hit ulti its almost always GG. But the fact that you can't tutor for them, their casting cost (Lili with BB, Garruk with GGG) as well as the fact that some of the deck's cards already do what they do best... I'd stick with GSZ-able threats.

Of course, not much experience with the deck yet so let's see :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sherko7

I've tried HoneyT's list a bit, but I think for now I'd rather try and mix and match with what I already have/about to have and then fine tune it to my taste. :smile:

The argument about Empath is good, and I'll cut that. Acidic Slime breaks shit and will eat removal, so personally that's fine with me, but I'll probably try Wickerbrough Elder too see what that could do.

I personally don't like the Planeswalkers much, sure when they hit ulti its almost always GG. But the fact that you can't tutor for them, their casting cost (Lili with BB, Garruk with GGG) as well as the fact that some of the deck's cards already do what they do best... I'd stick with GSZ-able threats.

Of course, not much experience with the deck yet so let's see :)

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I've never been disappointed with Elder especially against the Stoneblade decks where they have multiple equipment cards that they can tutor up.

Liliana is aeesome at taking over a game. Garruk is amazing against control with terminus and making a 3/3 every turn is tough for other creature decks to beat. Liliana is also sweet against a show and tell fattie

- I like Acidic Slime more than Wickerbough Elder. They are close but Slime trades with big Goyfs and some lands (especially Academy Ruins, but there are others, too) can ruin your day. It is also one mana cheaper to use with Recurring Nightmare.

- Vampire Nighthawk is unplayble in the current metagame. It will only turn their dead hand cards into good cards. It dies to Abrupt Decay (Jund, BUG) AND Lightning Bolt (Jund, RUG) without giving any value (same vs Swords to Plowshares in U/W and Maverick). An alternative could be Liliana (Mana cost is the same here) because she will at least always get something from them.

- I think I said that a dozen times now, but the deck needs another GSZable land searcher. Either Sylvan Ranger or Sakura Tribe Elder.

I like the rest of your list.

I'd suggest:

+ 1 Grave Titan
+ 1 Sylvan Ranger
+ 2 Liliana of the Veil
- 3 Vampire Nighthawk
- 1 Fierce Empath

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Liliana is aeesome at taking over a game. Garruk is amazing against control with terminus and making a 3/3 every turn is tough for other creature decks to beat. Liliana is also sweet against a show and tell fattie

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Garruk Relentless is CMC 4 vs Primal Hunter CMC 5. could he be potentially better in the long run? doubles as a removal spell and can make a stream of 2/2 wolves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZimAshe

Garruk Relentless is CMC 4 vs Primal Hunter CMC 5. could he be potentially better in the long run? doubles as a removal spell and can make a stream of 2/2 wolves.

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The goal of Prime Hunter is to be the anti-Jace because he generaly applies more pressure and provides more card advantage. Relentless is good, but PH is better for Nic Fit variants that best abuse Planeswalkers (creature-light).

Sup Peeps,

Got a question for Kevin / Qwerrios / Anyone else who feels like chiming in.

I had a run in with Reanimator in round 7 at Jupiter, and against last night at our local get together.

Does anyone have any advice for dealing with these guys? My best play seemed to be burning wish for innocent blood, and slam it after they drop girizzle brand. Problem being he just said "draw 7... draw 7... force it"