Chalice. Notice a whole two posts ago where it is mentioned Serenity kills their Chalice and Thorns?Quote:
Originally Posted by sampi
Yeah. lands too. And Breakthrough. Or Careful Study, even.Quote:
Originally Posted by sampi
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Chalice. Notice a whole two posts ago where it is mentioned Serenity kills their Chalice and Thorns?Quote:
Originally Posted by sampi
Yeah. lands too. And Breakthrough. Or Careful Study, even.Quote:
Originally Posted by sampi
True. I should have been more observant there.
Has anyone had to fight through double thorn before? Getting to 4 mana is tough. I think DR ashen rider would be the other way of dealing with it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
4 Mana? What are you trying to cast at 2 mana since we all know this deck is more anemic when it comes to casting anything more than CC1. In which case paying 3 mana is not completely farfetched as I've flashed back Faithless Looting before off natural land drops. Two thorns is a luxury, normally you just have to deal with the one, however, even with two on the board it shouldn't stop you from casting Putrid Imp which will allow you to bin your biggest dredger over and over. And unless they back up the thorns with pressure you're still going to be able to build an advantage without needing to actually cast any spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by sampi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
Considering Vandalize List (although pretty much the same as Parcher), what you guys think of this board?
4 Firestorm
4 Unmask
4 Nature's Claim
1 Dread Return
1 Ashen Rider
1 Griselbrand
HI evryone, I'm new to LED-dredge but I've been playing the deck online on cockatrice for a month or so and I've been playing manaless dredge for several months. This saturday there is a Legacy local and I'm lloking forward to participate to this event however I have little knowledge of the differents matchups, and thus, my sideboard. I read some pages of this thread and found it very interesting. Anyway if someone could tell me where i can find matchups analysis and sideboard plans I would be really grateful. Anyway is my current list:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Street Wraith
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Mana Confluence
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
1 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 City of Brass
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
//Sideboard
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 1 Blazing Archon
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 2 Lotus Petal
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
Maindeck is pretty straightforward but my sideboard is still not finished, I'm not sold on the 4-of LoTV, but I seemed like a good card against Storm/reanimator, which i know are bad matchups, but I'd like to put in Firestorms...
Ina nutshell: Help me ! ^^
Thanks and sorry for my english, as I'm French ^^
Played in a local weekly. Went 3-1. My board sucked. I forgot how to board since it has been 2+ years since I have last dredged.
2-0; Storm: He whiffed game 1 and scoops. He mulled to 5 game 2, I stick an iona on black on turn 2
2-1; Sneak: Game 1 I did the thing. Game 2 he caged on 1 and then showed on 3. I did not bring in any anti hate. Game 3 a single zombie got in for like ten points of damage and I faded him drawing a fatty with an active sneak.
0-2; CB: I mulliganed to 5 and kept a bad to mediocre hand but it had pieces so did not want to go lower, did not do anything of value, game 2 kept a slower hand and got swords/terminus'd out
2-0; Grixis delver: We split but played some games. I vomit on turn 1 from a 6, he scoops. More of the same after he mulls to 5 in game 2 and I shred with Therapy.
Overall: My board and board plan needs work. Quad still gets it done. Never needed Dread main. Mulligan always. Unsure if anti hate is needed.
May or may not update with board ideas later once I sit on it some more.
Ive yet to see any video evidence of anti-hate winning a game. I think its more of a mental thing for dredge players rather than anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
Can't give you videos, but I've won many games due to Firestorm, Unmask, Nature's Claim and Fatties. But I understand your point, sometimes it cripples us more than help. I've also lost many games as well that I would've won if I was running main deck. But that's why someone like Parcher wins more games than I do: he tested more, knows the field better and how to side better, and sometimes it does means going main deck g3. And he have done it many times.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmythegreek
Now, from Vandalize/Parcher list, I am considering cutting the 2 Pimp for 2 Firestorm maindeck. Where it does the same (almost): discards cards. Where it helps: killing creatures g1, namely DRS (present in many DTB decks, but also infect creatures which could be a though matchup for us). Also, it open 2 SB slots (in my case), where I am considering 2 extra lotus petal. Where it doesn't help: less Ichorid food, one less creature that could help you DR (although irrelevant g1).
Overall, I am happy with the cost/benefit. I don't normally buy nut hands, and we all know DRS can win games alone in case we don't.
I agree that Shaman is a problem that does need to be taken into consideration game one. Firestorm is a fine addition to the main if it resolves. That's the issue I see. 14 is what I believe to be the minimum number of Black creatures to support Ichorid. So with what I've seen, you're going too low there. If you can kill Deathrite, it probably won't matter. But if they counter it, they can shut down both your offense, and your engine by just removing Black dredgers. Wraith is the best solution to Deathrite. it adds a small bit of speed, which is always important. Especially against Deathrite. It protects your dredgers, and feeds Ichorids. I don't run it, as it hurts consistency of opening hands. I believe the same way that you need a certain minimum of fodder creatures for Ichorid, you need a minimum number of discard outlets. And strictly as such, PImp is the best. He's slow, and his ability to reload after GY sweepers has been unneeded recently. Which is why you see him cut so often. But being basically the best single card at facilitating everything this deck wants to do game one makes him unparalleled in consistency. Which is what I care about more than anything else game one.Quote:
Originally Posted by indefinite.soul
Why do you say it hurts the consistency of opening hands? I think the deck itself is full of discard outlets - regardless of how worse some are over others - that will allow you to consistently bin a dredger on turn 1 and as part of our general rule we don't keep hands that don't have a least a land, an outlet (we didn't specify which), and a dredger anyway. We have Faithless Looting, Careful Study, LED, Cabal Therapy, and Breakthrough and I guess our end step if you're on the draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
Also the Wraith main deck doesn't hurt the deck as much game 1 because most decks cannot interact with you that game anyway except for decks with DRS which is why we have the Wraith there (uncounterable and instant speed). Most of the time you're taking them out for cards that do something stronger against combo where Putrid Imp would have probably been cut anyway being slower in the those matchups.
Another thing to note against a "fair" deck: Sometimes I have a hand that has a Putrid Imp and a Careful Study/Faithless Looting, but only 1 land. In the past I've cast Putrid Imp so that I can bin Dredgers and then cast the Careful Study in my hand for extra dredging. But now I almost never want to do that because experience has shown me that my land will get hit with Wasteland and I wont actually get to cast that Careful Study which leaves me treading water slow dredging with the PImp. OR I cast the PImp turn 1 then on their turn they cast an Inquisition of Kozilek/Duress/Thoughtseize and take away my Draw spell and then again I'm left treading water slow dredging. OR I cast Putrid Imp on turn 1 and then I don't ever resolve that draw spell on my turn 2 since they will now have Daze/Spell Pierce up and again slow dredging.. I've just gotten tired of slow dredging xD
And at this point I'm not saying that having one over the other is correct as subjective as this deck is, but I like to defend my choices as you've done. Game 1s feel like a formality, however, the times that I have lost a game 1 have been due to unfortunate dredges rather than my inability to bin a dredger.
Wraith hurts consistency in opening hands because it is not a card that does anything this deck is trying to accomplish by itself. You can count it as another card simply due to the cycling. But that's like keeping a double Probe hand with Belcher and trying to draw into a win con. I already stipulated how good Wraith is directly against Deathrite. Unfortunately, most decks that run Deathrite, also run countermagic. Every discard outlet becomes vital since most players have realized it's worth the risk to snap counter the first outlet they see. Running less makes that a higher odds play. Running less obviously reduces the odds of you opening with any. And running less forces you to depend on poor outlets like Therapy and Bthrough. If you lead with Therapy on yourself, they will auto counter it. And it's not like resolving it is swell to begin with. Same with Breakthrough, which I've seen Wraith lists run less than 4 as well. Breakthrough doesn't even have any synergy with Wraith if you don't have a discard outlet. Both have a high chance of you bricking on your first dredge and being stalled for at least a turn. And going to your discard step vs Deathrite is useless if you don't have Wraith. Even if you do, if you brick on hitting a dredger, you're stuck slow dredging anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
I agree that PImp is slow vs. Combo. And I usually board them out. Though if running Petal, it can change that. You can discard and dredge T1 with PImp and any draw, and guarantee a body for Therapy. Against Wasteland, PImp is the best opening you can have. The odds of that first Study hitting another land are bad. So you want a way to continually bin dredgers. Not to mention that if you are stuck with just the Study as your action after a Waste, you usually have more than two cards you want to discard. You're forced to bin the dredgers to keep your engine going since you can't count on casting after a Waste. But you have that Ichorid and Bridge stuck in hand now. As you said; in game one the enemy has little to interact. If the deck can't keep dredging, even slowly, it may not matter since they can simply implement their own strategy without your interference. PImp even gives a body for Therapy to force through that Study past Pierce or such. You can wait a turn to be certain of this, since PImp attacking himself, plus the guarantee of the engine continuing applies pressure to the enemy. And if they Waste you, they're not killing the PImp. Which may fall into your plan anyway since you can sandbag Bridges.
EDIT: I probably doesn't matter in most builds anyway. If you are running 4 Looting, and 4 PImp, you do have the most discard outlets of any build. Straight Quadlaser. But with only 8 Rainbow lands, you only have a 51% chance of being able to cast either of those T1. Same with the Wraith builds if you're depending on 4 Loot 4 Therapy as your discard outlets. 8 off-color spells and 8 mana sources leaves only a 51% chance of having at least one of each.
Yeah of course they know they have to stop the outlet, but unless they have a bevy of countermagic they can't get selective about which outlet they counter. They don't know that you aren't or are running a certain number of discard oultets, they will/should snap counter any of them to prevent the engine from even beginning. Like I said I will lose games because of poor dredging not because I wasn't able to start the engine. Unless of course my opponent just had all the disruption in the world (FOW, Daze, Spell Pierce, Wasteland..etc) in which case even PImp wouldn't have been able to help me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
Study might not hit a land, but ideally you're looking for more 1CC Draw Spells, Cephalid Coliseum, Breakthrough, Stree Wraith and even LEDs so there is definitely a lot of different action we can draw. Even lands aren't the worst allowing us to cast Narcos or Thugs or even flashback Faithless at times, but thats less common. I have gotten into situations that I've had cards "stuck" in my hand be them Ichorids, BfB, or Dredgers, but I don't feel thats a huge detriment considering were more streamlined in card choices. I feel like the times you have cards like BfB or Ichorid stuck in your hand was from openers that unless was filled with other saucy stuff you would have mulled anyway because they're virtually mulls already (were not casting BfB or Ichorid which makes them dead in our hand and would yours as well unless you did have PImp). Which just leaves dredgers, but often a times I can also Therapy them out of my own hand if I really need to.
Maybe I'm beating a dead horse as it seems like under certain conditions there are strong arguments for and against both PImp and Street Wraith. And I understand where you're coming from. Which is why at times I've even thought about putting in a miser's Phantasmagorian in this build for those situations, its just that I've never felt it was a huge struggle having a few cards stuck in the hand. Though discarding in multiples of 3 for Phantasmagorian may be more difficult to meet than I'm thinking idk.
[Side Note]
Also I consider bricking on any dredges as one of those unfortunate events/poor dredges scenarios.
What matchups is Griselbrand the target for?
What permanents are you tagging with ashen rider?
Am I crazy for always wanting Iona?
Just trying to figure out which 1-2 targets to play in SB for DR targets. I mainly just don't know when I want Griselbrand.
I guess I'll field this one. I run Griz mainly just to act as a far, far better Sphinx of Lost Truths. It's for any match where I just need to combo as quickly as possible. His stats are just a bonus. His secondary use is against some decks like Miracles. Where they might threaten Terminus and you want to use his ability to just draw and refill your hand in case they can follow up the sweeper with GY hate. Technically, you can also do some absurd, win-more stuff with Firestorm. I've had six+ zombies trapped under an Ensnaring Bridge vs Painter. Dread Griz, draw 14(up to 19), play a second land, Firestorm for 8, in response Firestorm for 8.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
Rider is primarily there for Lands. They have so many different ways to mess with us that we can't interact with that Rider just blows through. They can have both Tabernacle and Chasm set up, and you can remove Chasm, and even let Tabernacle remove itself during your next upkeep. And since it exiles, they can't get either of those singletons back. It's also there for decks where you might not worry about direct hate, but need to deal with other permanents. Painter for instance might have only 1 RiP and 1 Crypt, which you might deal with, and then they drop Bridge. Rider is great against Sneak for obvious reasons. But they sometimes run Leyline of Sanctity. Your plan is to rip apart their hand to stop their combo primarily. So you can Show in Rider, or you can go off, Rider away their Leyline, and rip their hand apart. It's also immune to Karakas vs Miracles or DnT. I often use it vs Miracles just to hit lands. To guarantee they can't Terminus, or play RiP. It's also the safest target vs. Reanimator since you don't care about them getting it much. The life loss from Reanimate hurts them far more than a 5/5 hurts you, and the exile trigger is poor. He only comes in about 5-6 matchups. But if you Griselbrand into Rider by turn two, there is no realistic combination of cards any deck could put together to beat that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
Thanks for the run down. I was boarding into Iona(white) versus miracles but I guess griselbrand does the same thing when on the go real fast plan. I was mainly trying to narrow down to two targets, and trying to figure out which of the three I wanted. much appreciated.
Iona would be my third choice, so you're on the right track. Griz makes it unnecessary vs stuff like Storm though. And it doesn't do enough vs colorless stuff. Lands, Bridge, Platinum, etc. It does blow out Miracles and DnT. Unless they hit Karakas. But if it's early enough they probably can't Karakas AND RiP the same turn. Again, the inability to discard or destroy lands is the main reason. Terastodon is a close second. But I've had them have Exploration and/or Mox hands where they can Loam back Chasm and fight their way back. Also on the rare occasion you need to remove a creature. Not only can't the Don do it, you don't lose Bridges from Rider removing one.
As a preface to what I'm about to say, I'm running four Ichorids in my main because beatdowns are often more effective than shooting for a combo (esp. when people keep Extracting things). As a result, whether a creature is black plays no small part in my assessment of its place in this deck. I also continue to run 2x Dread Return and a G-Brand in my maindeck because they're all excellent cards that are more likely to blow the game wide open than they are to fizzle or durdle.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
The approach I take to Griselbrand is "when would I NOT want him?" rather than "when would I want him?"
Generally speaking, Griselbrand is the best target you can have for Dread Return if you don't need to kill the opponent immediately. It gives us enough dredging power to dump our entire deck any time we want to; it has Lifelink, and it flies (both extremely important for facing a number of "decks to beat"); and it's black, making it an Ichorid feeder.
If you want to win immediately, FKZ, Flayer of the Hatebound, and Kolaghan are better cards to return. But it's not common that you need to run one of those cards because the only decks we need to T1 are other decks that aim to T1 us (Belcher, All Spells, PSI, and occasionally Storm or the like). Sometimes a deck will assemble a killer combo the turn after we've made 6-24 zombies, but it's rare in my experience.
Essentially, G-Brand's draw-7 pretty much reads "we win" if our opponent doesn't have us dead next turn. It does become overkill in a lot of games, but overkill is better than losing. And there are a number of fringe situations in which it'll pull the game for us, even against otherwise hideously powerful plays from the opponent. The example that comes to mind is Show and Tell: I've gotten S&T'd for Emrakul on turn 2 (3?) with no plays, but I had a G-Brand in hand, so I could play out everything and win because I got an attack step before the opponent did.
Ashen Rider, Iona, Blazing Archon, and FKZ are all excellent secondary choices for sideboard Return targets. I'm less and less enthused about Elesh Norn simply because the other choices above seem to handle threats better and give us added benefits that Elesh often can't provide, but keep in mind that they're all such situational cards that they're not worth running in the main (unlike G-Brand). By no means is Elesh a bad card; it just feels a bit less effective against most decks (obv. excluding Elves, Merfolk, Gobbos, and MonasteryPyromancer.dec) than our other options.
Ashen Rider doesn't really have specific, match-independent priority targets; it's a bit of a catch-all for handling permanent threats we wouldn't expect or that would totally shut us out if they were to stay on the board. (Note that it's no use to bring it in against Leyline, RiP, etc. because we don't have a reasonable means of casting it.) Another big bonus is that Rider is black, so it also fuels Ichorid. Essentially, it's our answer to Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, True Believer clones, Tabernacle, etc.
Iona's fantastic. I absolutely will keep it in my 'board simply because of the number of decks that can't beat it. It's no good in the main, though; there are too many decks that shrug off an Iona to make it worth maindecking (e.g. Eldrazi/MUD, fast combo, the mirror match), and it's not a black creature.
Blazing Archon is a beast in some of those matchups, esp. Eldrazi, which needs a minimum of two spells (that effectively cost 2-6 life each) to kill it. I don't know whether it's necessary, but it feels to me like a strict upgrade over Elesh Norn for certain matchups.
FKZ is probably the best of the trio of "insta-win" creatures. Kolaghan's black, which is an upgrade, but it stacks damage less effectively if you've got 6+ attacking creatures (if you're reanimating an instakill creature, you should have more than 6 creatures on the attack). Flayer's extremely strong, but it requires more work to activate it for the kill (minimum of two Dread Returns in the same turn plus Trolls), and it gets cut off by arbitrary strategies/cards like Leyline of Sanctity. Worth pointing out that it can snipe hate-creatures, but it can't snipe any other type of permanent (which Rider can do).
In short, Iona's great against a ton of decks—e.g. Pox/X-Rack, Berserk Poison, D&T, Burn—but you don't really need it game 1 against anybody, and it's easy for opponents to play around it if they're running a deck with a relatively even color weight (Delver variants, Miracles, etc.). G-Brand is unquestionably your best reanimation target barring circumstances in which you need a permanent gone or you need to swing for ≥20 right away. The red bros listed above are all good for instant kills, but you'll need to do that rarely.
[EDIT: What other stuff are you running in your sideboard that you think is more useful than a third target for reanimation? Aside from artifact/enchantment hate, the reanimation targets are the most crucial component in my experience, which is one reason I'm running two Returns in the main. For the record, I'm still opposed to running Abrupt Decay or Firestorm; they sound much better than they actually are.]
I only run 2 targets. I am just trying to figure out which two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Board is
2 targets
2 dread returns
3 petal
4 firestorm
4 ?
the ?'s vary from Claim to Leyline to Unmask to Serenity to Wear//Tear to Echoing truth.
I often board in 6 cards if I want to go fast and sometimes 7, still working out what I take out but it has often been 4 study, a land, and an ichorid or two.
I find firestorm to be one of the better answers versus DRS but like any answer its MMV. At least it does damage and discards, which gives it some more legs than other enchantment answers.
There may be a world where in SB games you just build to be hyper fast with more free dudes and hope they don't have it. Outrace a DRS, dodge leyline all day, etc. May need some tuning on how to streamline the deck to be better against slow eaters like DRS.
I just purchased my plane ticket for Grand Prix Columbus. Anyone here going?
Would love to meet up and talk shop with y'all!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hyZxGmLJqw
#dredgeisalifestyle
Well done, Que.
Hah, beat me to posting it :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by meffeo
Agreed, thanks again to Que for doing the interview with me.
Cheers man! I really appreciate the work you are doing on the channel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Svyelunite
/ot
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
thanks for not sharing all the secrets on how to beat dredge :D :D
Haha thanks guys. Yeah I was thinking about that, but that wasn't really one of the questions really. If anything this interview has kind of given me an idea. I figure I can also record some small snippets with regards to side boarding, gameplay or interactions you might have with other decks, etc.. that I can put on youtube. That might be something useful. Or perhaps answer specific questions idk yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
Also there was some stuff cut from the interview for time reasons, but I want to make sure I got to post it on here. I gave shout outs to people from whom I learned a great deal by emulating and studying their material; whether it be their articles, their gameplay on camera, their discussions, and/or their tournament reports. They included:
Erik Hegemann, Timo Schunemann, Jason Bulkowski, Dave Thomas, Damon Whitby, Michael Keller, Ando Ferguson, Richard Feldman, MaxMcall, Drew Tunison
Thanks and big ups to these guys!
#Westcoast
QUE... Cañon! Well done man, if you decide to post / record snippets and need a hand setting up, drop me a line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
Hey guys I have a question about Keep or mull :
We're game 1 against an unknow opponent and we're on the play, do you keep this hand:
Stinkweed imp
Careful study
Dread return
Mana confluence
Bridge from below
Golgari grave-Troll
Lotus petal
And if you keep, how do you play it ?
And if you know you're against ANT, what is your choice ?
I have another question, Imagine you have a hand With land, dredger, careful ,cabal therapy and the other cards are useless in your hand (like Bridge or ichorid)
Against an unknown deck OTP, do you Cabal yourself ?
If you know the opposing deck, against which type do you cabal the opponent, cabal you or Craeful t1
Thanks !
i think that's a pretty easy keep. t1 careful and you gotta see what you draw from there. i'm not too sure vs ANT if you can mulligan reliably into a better hand. ANT is fast, and you have a lot of disruption available. if you draw breakthrough or even looting off of the careful study you've probably won the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sygmad
cabal therapy is stronger vs the opponent than vs yourself most of the time.
if it's game 1, i would study first. if it's g2/3 and they have hate, on the draw i would cabal, on the play only if they have cage. i can see an argument for playing on t1 if you are really afraid of rest in peace or priest.
Game 1 against an unknown opponent I would keep that hand and play land into careful study. If that resolves, then my next move will depend on what 2 cards I get from study. If I have a hand with therapy on the play against an unknown opponent I would usually therapy the opponent naming force of will.
Hey folks,
I already own a playset of LEDs, so this isn't for budget reasons. I've been double thinking the role of LED in G1 and have been wanting to maindeck Lotus Petal in it's place. I like the acceleration Lotus Petal provides without having to go "all-in" like LED, and being able to get out a discard outlet going + draw spell in the same turn is huge. Moreover, it provides extra mana to get around Daze and Thorn. Can you folks explain to me why I'm wrong in my views of LED? Note, I'm still keeping it in the SB for when we need to go all in against other combo and reanimator.
For reference, here's my list: Dredge
Feels a bit like turning a rocket-car into a Volvo, tbh. You're losing the power and goes-fast for a moderate increase in consistency and resilience, which I don't think is worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by draugr
You might have a slightly better long game with that sort of strategy, but I feel like not running a full set of LED and Coliseum is putting pressure on you to run alternate discard outlets (like PImp) that aren't really necessary and don't have as much power. You'll also be a lot less likely to flash back a Faithless Looting without Lotuses in the deck.
Another big advantage to running LED is that it makes it a lot easier to overwhelm a Deathrite Shaman, and not only when you've got a Faithless to recur.
Hope I'm not being too harsh! I think we have different philosophies about how to build and play the deck; I'm on 12 lands (4 Coliseums), maindeck 2x Dread Return and G-Brand, and 2 Wraiths instead of 3 PImps. I tried out Lotus Petals for a while in the sideboard, and though I can see the theoretical use for them, I didn't find that they came up enough to give me an idea of how helpful they would really be in a tournament. There weren't many instances in which I found myself hurting for a Petal when another card would do just as well, and when the Eldrazi rolled around I stopped taking for granted the ability to play spells on 0 or 1. I like your running 4x Ichorid; I don't feel any desire to go back to 3, especially in the newly Chalice-filled format. Icky's just so good for so many things.
If you're running 4 Petals in your main, I would definitely (DEFINITELY) run Abrupt Decay in your sideboard. You'd have 14 mana sources for it, which is 1.75 times as many as I'm running. I abandoned Decay for a lack of fixing, but I very much doubt you'll have that problem with the Petals.
Hey !
IN GP Columbus Brandon Price placed 31st with a cool dredge list :smile: ! Here it is :
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Street Wraith
2 Putrid Imp
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
1 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
2 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
Sideboard:
1 Dread Return
1 City of Brass
1 Darkblast
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Firestorm
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Nature's Claim
There is a few things that differs from a classic dredge list :
-inclusion of Pimp and Street Wraith
-only 2 Coliseum
-down to 3 careful strudy (maybe due to wraith's inclusion)
-Flame Kin zealot MD as the DR target !
And as always the Sideboard is customized
Any thoughts on this particular decklist ?
i'm guessing the 2 coliseum is to help out the sb, as there's even another city of brass in the sb. (casting darkblast twice in a turn or abrupt decay should be a bit easier)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sygmad
We don't need that much mana in the main. That said, I don't think including Petals in a mainlist is necessarily a bad move.Quote:
Originally Posted by draugr
I tried Petals in the main for a while, but went back to a plain ol' 9 rainbows, 4 Coliseums & 4 LED's.
For me, Lotus Petal has some con's worth considering. The biggest, is that it's a spell, not a land.
It can be countered, and targeted by discard. Anything like Chalice of the Void @ 0, Thalia, Thorn etc. stops you playing it unless you also have a rainbow in hand. And of course it's a one-shot deal. I deemed those reasons enough to use rainbows instead in the main.
Given Dredge is already a fast deck in G1, I suspect the extra speed that LED provides isn't necessary unless your meta is chock full of Storm combo.
Pimp & Wraith are a preference for me. Quite a few of us have been running a mix of these two for a while. I think most agree that both have pro's and con's worth your attention. I ran Wraith exclusively for a while, both for a while, but I'm now back to playing Pimp only. Full circle. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sygmad
I don't know why Brandon Price was running 2x Coliseum, this isn't something I would expect to see unless our player in question was short of a few cards on the day.
3 Studies I can understand, however I think it's a auto 4-of myself.
FKZ is preference. I think we have better options for a DR target (Griselbrand, Iona, Ashen Rider, Flayer etc.) if we're looking to run a maindeck reanimation target.
The 2 Coliseums reminds me of a couple years back.
I'd been running a Griselbrand combo-version of dredge, and I turned up to play without checking my deck.
I turned up with a 58 card deck, as the G-man x2 had disappeared. I can only assume where they went, as they never turned up....:eyebrow:
So being incredibly short of both money and time, I simply chucked a couple islands in my sideboard that the shop-dude donated for me, and popped a couple of my sideboard cards into the main.
After that day, which went well, it dawned on me that a reanimation target wasn't required for LED dredge to win reliably.....
List seems sub-optimal eschewing the careful studies yet including reanimation and targets, seems quite inconsistent. I'm not the sharpest player (not assuming this players skill, I don't know this person) but I've won a 70 man tournament with dredge because the deck ran hot and I saw next to no hate. I'd be interested to hear more from this player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sygmad
Excellent video and interview - great job, and thanks for the shout-out!Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
I'll be playing Dredge for the first time in a year and a half this weekend on the East Coast at Eternal Extravaganza 4 in PA. I'll be sure to keep you guys in the loop.
That list is pretty similar to what i would be playing right know.
This is my list at the moment
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
2 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
2 City of Brass
4 Prized Amalgam
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Wispmare
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Lotus Petal
Im still not 100% satisfied with it, i would like to play with a maindeck dread return and a single target, metagame goes faster and faster and we often need to go big before our opponent untaps.
I am sure that prized amalgam is a 4x in dredge, not playing it is as bad as not playing ichorids, the card is able to hard carry most mu and has never been bad in my tests, entering in eot is also good in some mu such as miracle, you can easily force a combat terminus and have your amalgams enter after it, and that's really game changing.
Im playing 14 lands in that list, not 100% sure it's correct, my plan is to decrease mulligans, I've also decided to play a bit more starters so i swapped a careful study for 2 imps, i think we cant afford to mull as easily as we used to, eldrazi can outrace us if we keep slow hands.
In the board we have 4 firestorms against the insane amount of dreathrite shamans (and this should mean that we need street wraiths, but i really have no more room in the deck), 4 claims as a general answer, the single dread return with no big targets can still reanimate our 2 problem solvers, ingot and wispmare, so is use is more like a single lock piece solver, and both wispmare and ingot are useful in most sideboard plans anyway, if we want to be a little more safe against lock maybe one of them can rotate out for an ashen rider.
Thoughts about my list?
I would like to hear what you think mainly about the amalgams :wink:
It seems you've shaved your numbers above to fit in Prized Amalgam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
Have you tried running it competitively yet? If so, how did it go?
Can you give us instances where PA is a good card to see against fast opponents? (think combo, storm etc.)
I've tried to like to card, tested it a fair bit, but whilst the card fits into Manaless pretty easily, I'm yet to be convinced here in LED-dredge.
My main issue, other than the *tapped* part, is that Pimp & Icky help to power Therapy & Dread Return, whereas PA is slow, so I can't make zombies until my next turn.
Against any decks that can nuke your bridges, this isn't something that sits well with me.
Amalgam has been on Narco level since i started testing it, so i'd say its hella broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
The card is amazing in any grindy MU, you get way more strong dredges than before, hitting and early amalgam followed by a meba or ico is amazing.
You get much more play if your bridges get extracted, a fast beatdown with amalgams and ichorids is often enough to carry the game.
Amalgam is only bad against fast MU basicly, you can feel confidant boarding out them against combos.
Im still not 100% about the sideboard, but i feel like amalgam has become a standard 4x already.
No Dread Return with Prized Amalgam? Isn't that the point of playing another recursive creature? otherwise you're just a beatdown deck. I mean why not play Nether Shadow or even Ashen Ghoul at that point. Though If I were to play your list I would cut the 2 Putrid Imp and add back the Careful Study and at least 1 Dread Return. Try that and let me know how you like it. I haven't personally played with the card, but that sounds like a better configuration for what I think you're trying to achieve. I might even cut the 14th land and put in the 12th dredger. 13 lands in my experience has been fine (9 rainbow lands); I'm currently using 4x Mana Confluence, 4x Cephalid Coliseum, 3x Gemstone Mine, 2x City of Brass Eric Copenhaver's manabase. Plus you still have the 3 Lotus Petal out of the board.
Also your sb looks a bit weak more specifically against combo. 1 Ingot and 1 Wispmare means you' wont draw them reliably. And you will not be Dread Returning these to answer cards like Cage and RIP Obviously... I would rather have targets for fast MU as you've mentioned those are the problem areas and you have no Iona, Flayer/Flame Kin, Griselbrand, Ashen Rider, etc.. to deal with those decks. You should be ok with Nature's Claim though I feel less impressed with it considering the abundance of Chalice floating around right now. I would rather play Abrupt Decay again even though you will not be able to answer Leyline of the Void (1 card that sees niche play). I'll hold my tongue on Firestorm as I've already expressed my thoughts on that card. /
Also I got to split the Finals recently at my LGS Knighware Inc, Running my usual list with Abrupts back in my sideboard. They were a huge help all day helping me clear DRS and Cages.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...25-Trop-Tundra
Happy Dredging Y'all!
Congrats on the finish, Que. Any chance for a tournament report?