Countermagic and Legacy: Do we want it?

If you take a look at the other formats like Standard, you'll notice that a great deal of the better counter-spells are more expensive and sometimes "clunky" or slow. It's easier to predict when someone will have counter magic open and can allow you to play around them (compared to Legacy, where unless your opponent doesn't have a had or doesn't play blue, you never truly know if they have a counter spell or not).

It's because of this that I think counter magic isn't quite as potent in the other non-eternal formats. In Legacy and Vintage, most of the "tier 1" decks run Force of Will and some other counter spells, like Daze or Mana Drain. Whether this is good or not I will not assume as I do not play a large amount of Standard or Extended. However, no one is going to deny that counter magic is far more powerful in the two Eternal formats.

Which brings me to my question: what everyone think about counter magic in Legacy? What kinds of strategy does it add? Is the format be better off without some of the more potent counter spells like Force? Would the removal of powerful counter spells like Force be an improvement to the format to promote growth of other non-blue, non-counter heavy decks?

Is our format too dependent on counter-magic to balance out other decks (combo) that, left unchecked, would basically cause everyone to run those few decks?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

If you take a look at the other formats like Standard, you'll notice that a great deal of the better counter-spells are more expensive and sometimes "clunky" or slow. It's easier to predict when someone will have counter magic open and can allow you to play around them (compared to Legacy, where unless your opponent doesn't have a had or doesn't play blue, you never truly know if they have a counter spell or not).

It's because of this that I think counter magic isn't quite as potent in the other non-eternal formats. In Legacy and Vintage, most of the "tier 1" decks run Force of Will and some other counter spells, like Daze or Mana Drain. Whether this is good or not I will not assume as I do not play a large amount of Standard or Extended. However, no one is going to deny that counter magic is far more powerful in the two Eternal formats.

Which brings me to my question: what everyone think about counter magic in Legacy? What kinds of strategy does it add? Is the format be better off without some of the more potent counter spells like Force? Would the removal of powerful counter spells like Force be an improvement to the format to promote growth of other non-blue, non-counter heavy decks?

Is our format too dependent on counter-magic to balance out other decks (combo) that, left unchecked, would basically cause everyone to run those few decks?

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The removal of Counters in Legacy, well.. would create another format, it wouldn't be even worth no more to be called Legacy. Nothing else to be said.
As long as you're playing in an eternal format, keep in mind that it will be defined by Force of Will, Daze, and such.

Without the fear of force most combo decks would just go for the win no matter what with little to stop them.

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Originally Posted by rockout

Without the fear of force most combo decks would just go for the win no matter what with little to stop them.

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I agree with this 100%. However, is it good for the format to depend on counter magic to stop combo?

I've seen a few Vintage deck lists and almost 90% of them have: power nine, FoW, brainstorm and then their little combo.

I just don't want to see Legacy end up on the same path as Vintage is.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I agree with this 100%. However, is it good for the format to depend on counter magic to stop combo?

I've seen a few Vintage deck lists and almost 90% of them have: power nine, FoW, brainstorm and then their little combo.

I just don't want to see Legacy end up on the same path as Vintage is.

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Non-blue decks have adequate tools to fight combo; CotV, 3Sphere, Pyrostatic Pillar, Duress, Thoughtseize, etc.

True, these non-blue tools require the player to actually have a turn, but it's not like combo players have a god-hand everytime they're on the play.

Legacy doesn't have the ridiculous combo engines that vintage has, such as Timetwister, Yawgmoth's Will, or Tinker. Because of this, combo is slower and less reliable, so aggro has a chance. When creatures are relevant, card slots have to be dedicated to dealing with them, even if it's just adding some goyfs to use as blockers.

Besides, what combo are legacy FOW decks going to use? We don't have Time Vault or Oath of Druids, and our storm engines are weak enough that they require a lot of slots dedicated to the combo. If people start playing Painter's Servant, we can always go and put 1-2 gaea's blessing in our sideboard.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Non-blue decks have adequate tools to fight combo; CotV, 3Sphere, Pyrostatic Pillar, Duress, Thoughtseize, etc.

True, these non-blue tools require the player to actually have a turn, but it's not like combo players have a god-hand everytime they're on the play.

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Exactly. They are proactive, and they can answer combo, but you need mana and luck in hopes that your opponent doesn't just Goldfish on the draw.

How would you feel if they went first on game 1, won, you win game two, and then they goldfish again on game 3? With Force, they can't do this 100% on game one or two, but without it it's a very real possibility. Hell, I know some players joke about Vintage being "a coin flip" on who wins each game. It's not 100% true, but there IS some truth to this.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Exactly. They are proactive, and they can answer combo, but you need mana and luck in hopes that your opponent doesn't just Goldfish on the draw.

How would you feel if they went first on game 1, won, you win game two, and then they goldfish again on game 3? With Force, they can't do this 100% on game one or two, but without it it's a very real possibility. Hell, I know some players joke about Vintage being "a coin flip" on who wins each game. It's not 100% true, but there IS some truth to this.

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If the combo player was able to assemble a turn 1 win in Game 1 AND Game 3 of the same match, then that's incredibly lucky on his part. I mean, really lucky. Shit like that does happen though in Magic.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

If the combo player was able to assemble a turn 1 win in Game 1 AND Game 3 of the same match, then that's incredibly lucky on his part. I mean, really lucky. Shit like that does happen though in Magic.

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I agree that it does require a degree of luck. But is it good that have that possibility? Would it be better to have combo toned further, some of the more potent counter spells removed so that other decks may grow and develop? There is a reason that half of the DTB on this site run Force of Will with other counters: counters can answer most any threat.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Is our format too dependent on counter-magic to balance out other decks (combo) that, left unchecked, would basically cause everyone to run those few decks?

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No, not even if you add "free" before "counter-magic"...

We just finished a tournament here (Goyfless) and Stax and Goblins played off for the win, not MUC & Ad-Tendrils.

I think everything is pretty darned balanced. Oh, and sometimes who's on the play *is* what decides games.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

There is a reason that half of the DTB on this site run Force of Will

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"...it's basically free" is what you meant to say.

Well, consider the current builds of TES, or even Belcher.

Now take out all the protection and build it for speed (Well, most of the time Belcher has pretty minimal mainboard protection), and you've got decks that can goldfish a turn 1 win a measurable amount of time. Yeah, it's not incredibly consistent, but you've got something that will win some matches entirely by the die roll, regardless of what your opponent is playing.

That sounds pretty miserable to me. I don't even own a set of Force of Wills myself (Aggro Loam, GoyfSligh, and Zoo mostly), but as much as I dislike having a Devastating Dreams Forced, I'd much rather play against that than play against a combo deck tuned to not let me have a turn if it goes first.

Forcing (no pun intended) combo to interact with its opponent before knowing it can execute its combo safely is something that keeps this format balanced.

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Originally Posted by mujadaddy

"...it's basically free" is what you meant to say.

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Yeah, basically. :laugh:

Force being free is quite relevant. Daze as well, but it needs a land out so it isn't the same.

But you understand what I am getting at, right?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

You understand what I am getting at, right?

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Sure, but I think you're coming to the wrong conclusion.

Counters are the whole reason to put :u: in your deck at all.

I don't think this discussion is going anywhere. Are you saying that what ought to be done is "remove the cheap counters and remove combo"? That's wildly over-reactive.

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Originally Posted by mujadaddy

I don't think this discussion is going anywhere. Are you saying that what ought to be done is "remove the cheap counters and remove combo"? That's wildly over-reactive.

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Not quite. I wonder if this is good for the format if we are trying to develop other decks.

I do play blue decks, but they aren't my favorite style. But to remove even Force of Will alone from the format, let alone all countermagic, would be ridiculous.

Imagine if ANT could completely remove Duress and Chants from their maindeck and focus on a goldfish. They could probably kill on turn 1 frequently, and they wouldn't necessarily have to kill on turn 1 either.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

I do play blue decks, but they aren't my favorite style. But to remove even Force of Will alone from the format, let alone all countermagic, would be ridiculous.

Imagine if ANT could completely remove Duress and Chants from their maindeck and focus on a goldfish. They could probably kill on turn 1 frequently, and they wouldn't necessarily have to kill on turn 1 either.

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That's my point. The format seems TOO dependent on counter magic to keep combo in check.

Imagine if the format dropped Force but also dropped some of the crazy combo related cards like LED or Bridges. Would it make the format more enjoyable not having to worry about turn-1 kills without Force?

Considering half the DTBs or "Tier 1" decks don't run Blue I'd take that as evidence that free counter magic and combo do not stifle the "development of other decks".

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Not quite. I wonder if this is good for the format if we are trying to develop other decks.

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Better than Vintage.

Legacy has a very nice "rock-paper-scissors" setup right now with Aggro, Control, and Combo. Build a decent deck, and you can beat anybody if the cards fall right. In Goyfless, I went 1-2 in all my losses with a deck that isn't setting the format on fire, but the point is that I got wins over at least 1 top8 opponent.

Do I hate having to wait for players to Combo-Out? Sure. Do I hate seeing Top-'Balance-Goyf in some variation by turn 3? Sure. Do I hate how easy a good hand makes the game for the Goblins player? Sure.

But that doesn't stop me from innovating, and from sculpting something out of 75 cards that suits my playstyle.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Imagine if the format dropped Force but also dropped some of the crazy combo related cards like LED or Bridges. Would it make the format more enjoyable not having to worry about turn-1 kills without Force?

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That seems a little excessive, as far as what would be on a banned list, and that brings into question as to where the line would be drawn. What would this list look like for banning? I'd imagine it'd start like this:

Countermagic to be banned:

Force of Will
Daze
Foil?
Thwart?

Combo pieces to be banned:
Lion's Eye Diamond
Bridge from Below?
Lotus Petal?
Chrome Mox?
Mox Diamond?

That seems like quite a bit - even as just a start.

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Originally Posted by mujadaddy

Legacy has a very nice "rock-paper-scissors" setup right now with Aggro, Control, and Combo.

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I agree. The format is fine the way it is and banning Force of Will wouldn't make it any healthier,