[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

Introduction and Explanation


People sometimes call Ichorid the "crazy backwards upside down deck". It wants it's opponent's creatures to live, it's creatures to die, it's deck to go in the graveyard and it wants not to draw cards. Many people will have no Idea what's happening when you're playing it and often it will feel like you're playing alone.
The Dredge mechanic was first printed during the ravnica block on green and black cards and was origonaly considered to be a junk ability. The first card featuring dredge to be seen as playable was Life From the Loam and was used in decks like Confinement Aggro Loam and Enchantress. The mechanic did not gain an archetype of its own until one block later when dread return was printed in time spiral. The deck worked by using the dredge mechanic to grow it's grave yard. Over a few turns creatures like Narcomoeba and Ichorid came onto the battlefield and are sacrificed to either wreck your opponents hand with Cabal Therapy, or put a game winning creature out with Dread Return all the while making Zombies with Bridge From Below. The deck usually won by turn 4. Manaless Ichorid in legacy did not begin to take root as a serious archetype until the following list placed. This variant increases speed, consistency and reliability of tradional dedge at the cost of losing fate out against a turn zero leyline of the void.



Manaless Ichorid Nicholas Rausch's 1st place SCG Cincinatti 7/17/2011 (228 Players)


4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Gigapede
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
3 Dakmor Salvage
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Sideboard:

1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon
1 Gigapede
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Terastodon
4 Contagion
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress




This variant of the deck will always choose to be on the draw over the play(to have 8 cards on turn one and naturally discard), And you should also always have a dredger in your hand. These points are so important that I would also only advise to mulligan is if you don't have a dredger.
The goal of manaless Ichorid is to Draw, Discard, then Dredge, using your natural discard as your discard outlet. To do this you need eight cards in hand; and because of this strategy, you'll always be able to dredge on your draw step and discard at end of turn. One key advantage to using your discard step as your discard engine is that you misstep pretty much all counter magic in the format and the format has more now than ever.

There are several key tricks to maintaining this through instant speed hate like tormod's crypt and ravenous trap. You can use a draw effect (like street wraith) in response to the graveyard exile, this will let you save the dredger while your graveyard gets nuked. It's also usually best to open with a gigapede or phantasmagorian since you don't have to commit a dredger to the graveyard until you're ready to draw this way. Regardless of hate your ways of winning with this deck hinge on making the most of each of the following cards.

Bloodghast

Ichorid

Narcomoeba

nether shadow

Bridge from below

Dread Return



Bloodghast: The card that allows Bloodghast to enter the battlefield is Dakmor Salvage and is the worst dredger in the deck, and each Dakmor Salvage Should only be used once so make the most on your Dakmor Salvage by making sure you're going to either win or stop disaster by dredging it. There is a general consensus that this is the weakest card in the deck.

Ichorid: these should come out ever upkeep, and will help make zombies for you with Bridge from Below .

Narcomoeba: This is the best fodder for Cabal Therapy and Dread Return as it comes into play the turn it is dredged.

Nether Shadow: Remember to bring this out every turn if possible. Also remember that in legacy we have to keep our graveyards in the order they are created; however when we dredge each pile that comes off the top of our decks goes into the graveyard simultaneously. This means we can stack the Nether Shadows at the bottom of each dredge pile.

Bridge from below: be careful when attacking or blocking to make sure you don't exile this card. Cabal Therapy and Dread Return are particularly good at making tokens with this when you have multiples in your graveyards.

Dread Return: There are a host of creatures available to you to use with this. They include, but are not limited to

Flame-kin zealot
Inkwell Leviathan
Ancestor's Chosen
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Blazing Archon
Stormtide Leviathan
Terastodon
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Woodfall Primus
River Kelpie
Spinx of Lost Truths




As a rule you should have several creatures that draw cards when they come into play (river kelpie, Sphinx of lost truths etc) and at least on finisher in the deck (Iona, Flame kin zealot). You also want as many Dread Returns as possible so you can reanimate them early and often.



Card Pool



Many of the cards that other dredge versions use are usable in this deck. Some of the ones I should mention are,

Golgari Grave-Troll /Stinkweed Imp /Golgari Thug /Shambling Shell: These are what make the deck work and fuel your graveyard. generally the more the card dredges the better. Golgari Grave-Troll is also a good target for Dread return.

Gigapede and Phantasmagorian: These allow you to discard more than one card per turn and can protect you from hate.

Nether Shadow: This deck doesn't have the tieless tribe or putrid imp that traditional dredge has, this is a warm body that takes it's place.

Shambling Shell: Running 16 dredgers is a must since this deck needs one in it's opening hand, this is better than darkblast because it can feedIchorid

Dakmor Salvage / Bloodghast : This deck doesn't have the tieless tribe or putrid imp that traditional legacy ichorid has, these are a warm body to replace them.

Street wraith / gitaxian probe : These provide early explosiveness or protection, Gitaxian probe also allows you to be more accurate with Cabal Therapy .

Ichorid : these should come out ever upkeep, and will make zombies for you if you have a bridge from below out.

Narcomoeba : This is the best fodder for cabal therapy and dread return as it comes into play the turn it is dredged.

Cabal Therapy : These are your disruption and create tokens with Bridge From Below .

Faerie macabre: this is graveyard hate that feeds ichorid


Current Suggested list


4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Gitaxian probe
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Shambling Shell
3 bloodghast
3 dakmor salvage
3 faerie macabre
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria


//Side Board
4 Chancellor of The Annex
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Angel of despair
1 terastodon
1 faerie macabre
4 leyline of the void


The flex spots are Iona, woodfall primus, dakmor salvage + blood ghast, and street wraith and dread return 3-4. Beyond whats mentioned above mishra's bauble and urza's bauble are being tried by some In these spots, as well as Lion's eye diamond, Deep analysis and desperate ravings while others are trying Dryad arbor so that Nature's claim can make it into the sideboard.

Important side board cards are
Contagion
Mindbreak Trap
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of Sanctity
Mental Misstep
Tormod's Crypt
Faerie macabre
Surgical extraction
Chancellor of the annex

Additional info



Kevin Trudeu shares his list on MTG The Source
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Ichorid/page85

Alexander Lapping
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...r_Lapping.html

Article about manaless dredge in legacy on Channel Fireball
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...redge-returns/

Nicholas Rausch Videos
Finals
http://blip.tv/scglive/scgcin-leg-fi...rausch-5398125
Round 4
http://blip.tv/scglive/scgcin-leg-rd...barger-5398637

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Cox

...or to discard a dredger to a gigapede or Phantasmagorian in response to your graveyard being exiled. this will let you keep a dredger in your graveyard as a last resort.

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How? I mean... if you discard a Dredger in Response to the Graveexiling, the Dredger is also exiled >.<



Also, I see how this deck has much more graveyard interaction as normal Dredge, BUT it loses to Relic as hard as it loses to Leyline.

Lets say, I open with Relic, you want to play save and discard Phantasmagorian. I use the tap -> Relic, to remove your Phantasmagorian, you respond with discarding 3. I use Relic for the sac effect. You have 5 handcards now, thats like 3 timewalks for you, until you can start dredging again. A lot of decks can build up enough pressure to beat you in this time. OK, you may get 1-2 Dredges maybe, if the deck is slow, but that shouldn't be enough with drawspells to ensure a win at all...

I understand this whole "huge graveyard interaction thing" for cost of all explosiveness, but how can this deck win, in a meta where more than...like 7 graveyard hates are played in the top8, srsly wtf.

Not wanting to be the big nay-sayer, but IMO this deck loses more matches than normal Dredge in EVERY meta where a kinda normal anmount of hate is played...

Combo seems like a huge flaw MU also.

Doesn't relying on DDD turn Thoughtseize into a Timewalk? Doesn't it make SB Leylines terrible choices, since you're Timewalking yourself? This could possibly be avoided by using Unmask to discard a dredger or grab some hate or fight combo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greenpoe

Doesn't relying on DDD turn Thoughtseize into a Timewalk? Doesn't it make SB Leylines terrible choices, since you're Timewalking yourself? This could possibly be avoided by using Unmask to discard a dredger or grab some hate or fight combo.

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Thoughtseize is a Time-Walk if and only if it happens on the first turn.

Except for Tendrils, we should beat all of the Thoughtseize decks by much more than a turn, which means that despite this we're still pretty happy. Compare this to Thoughtseize against Mana Dredge (especially Lion's Eye Diamond Dredge), where it sometimes does nothing but usually buys 2-3 turns.

Regarding Leylines:
I think Sanctity is just never worth it, but there are definitely situations (on paper) where it's awesome.
the Void is pretty clearly awesome if it's worth running at all. Against any opposing graveyard decks, it should easily buy back the turn you spent putting it out.
I personally prefer Bojuka Bog in this slot, as it's just as uncounterable as Leyline, you can draw it, and it doesn't Time Walk you. As long as Manaless Dredge is getting a lot of press, though, Leyline is just better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

How? I mean... if you discard a Dredger in Response to the Graveexiling, the Dredger is also exiled >.<



Also, I see how this deck has much more graveyard interaction as normal Dredge, BUT it loses to Relic as hard as it loses to Leyline.

Lets say, I open with Relic, you want to play save and discard Phantasmagorian. I use the tap -> Relic, to remove your Phantasmagorian, you respond with discarding 3. I use Relic for the sac effect. You have 5 handcards now, thats like 3 timewalks for you, until you can start dredging again. A lot of decks can build up enough pressure to beat you in this time. OK, you may get 1-2 Dredges maybe, if the deck is slow, but that shouldn't be enough with drawspells to ensure a win at all...

I understand this whole "huge graveyard interaction thing" for cost of all explosiveness, but how can this deck win, in a meta where more than...like 7 graveyard hates are played in the top8, srsly wtf.

Not wanting to be the big nay-sayer, but IMO this deck loses more matches than normal Dredge in EVERY meta where a kinda normal anmount of hate is played...

Combo seems like a huge flaw MU also.

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The normal amount of graveyard hate lately has been 10-15 cards of real hate in the Top 8, possibly with some irrelevant Extirpate and Surgical Extraction alongside. SCG Indy, for example, had scant few hate cards but still no Mana Dredge (this was before popular interest in Manaless) made the Top 8 or the Top 16... clearly more was going on than just graveyard hate.

Depending on how you build it, it's typical for 1/8-1/4 of the deck more to let you play through Relic. Simply cycling Street Wraith in response to the tap is particularly excellent.

Combo is a big problem. The good news is, you can dedicate at least half the sideboard to it, if you want, and you're playing a reasonably fast deck, and you have a bunch of Cabal Therapy to help you out.

Discard effects, combo, and some graveyard hate are some of the reason you want Leyline of sanctity in the sideboard, it's strong enough that it's worth spending a turn doing nothing. The only piece of grave hate that this really auto looses to is Leyline of the void so Ichorid/faster combo are why its there. Faster combo is indeed a problem for this deck so feel free to look into mindbreak trap also.

On the problem with Gigapede/Phantasmagorian. I'm working through the rules for it right now but the concept came from the MTG salvation primer for manaless Ichorid located here, http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showp...70&postcount=1
It's mentioned in the first spoiler.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Cox

Discard effects, combo, and some graveyard hate are some of the reason you want Leyline of sanctity in the sideboard, it's strong enough that it's worth spending a turn doing nothing. The only piece of grave hate that this really auto looses to is Leyline of the void so Ichorid/faster combo are why its there. Faster combo is indeed a problem for this deck so feel free to look into mindbreak trap also.

On the problem with Gigapede/Phantasmagorian. I'm working through the rules for it right now but the concept came from the MTG salvation primer for manaless Ichorid located here, http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showp...70&postcount=1
It's mentioned in the first spoiler.

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Leyline of Sanctity, without some way to protect it, is absurdly bad against Tendrils or High Tide, which are the two most worrisome combo decks.

Mindbreak Trap is a little better but still not awesome.

The cards I'd recommend trying right now are: Mental Misstep, Chancellor of the Annex, and Lion's Eye Diamond (with LED you use it to put a bunch of draw effects on the stack and sacrifice LED in response).

Phantasmagorian's main purpose is to help you discard your hand (often responding to the ability with an instance of itself in order to bin 6 or even 9 cards rather than just 3) in order to combo out. Usually, you won't activate Phantasmagorian's discard ability until the turn you win (or the end-step before that).

Gigapede's purposes are to help smooth out the super creature-heavy builds and to act as extra Phantasmagorian. I don't like him.

People say Gigapede allows you to play around graveyard sweepers but I've yet to see any argument that actually supports that at all.

That primer is inaccurate, Manaless Dredge was (and is still) being played with the Serum Powder, Lion's Eye Diamond, Cephalid Coliseum and Deep Analysis engine before the cantrip engine in MTGO Classic before it was ported to Legacy and nobody took the deck seriously until Bridge from Below was printed in Future Sight.

That aside, Thought Seize isn't the Time Walk people think it is, the opponent has to spend a mana, a card, 2 life and a turn to put one of your business spells into your graveyard for you, a lot of the times you just thank your opponent for discarding a Nether Shadow, draw a card on your turn, pass the turn and the worse thing the card did was accelerate him into Stoneforge Mystic. It's really not the end of the world that people are making it out to people, at least compared to Leyline of the Void.

Relic of Progenitus tho' is really fucking up my day, I ran into it last night and I think it's the real reason to play Leyline of Sanctity in the SB to avoid the lock, because it's like a Leyline of the Void that people actually play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

That primer is inaccurate, Manaless Dredge was (and is still) being played with the Serum Powder, Lion's Eye Diamond, Cephalid Coliseum and Deep Analysis engine before the cantrip engine in MTGO Classic before it was ported to Legacy and nobody took the deck seriously until Bridge from Below was printed in Future Sight.

...

Relic of Progenitus tho' is really fucking up my day, I ran into it last night and I think it's the real reason to play Leyline of Sanctity in the SB to avoid the lock, because it's like a Leyline of the Void that people actually play.

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That deck sounds terrible... Cephalid Coliseum can only be activated off of Lion's Eye Diamond, and only then if you don't take any actual mulligans. The same goes (not quite as strongly) for Deep Analysis.

How well you can play through Relic depends on your list. Street Wraith, Gitaxian Probe, Phantasmagorian, and the Baubles all let you play through it. (also fetchlands if you run Dryad Arbor)

Quote:

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Yeah, Baubles are also more valuable than Gitaxian Probe in the sense they protect the deck from Relic of Progenitus, which is the worst of the SB cards we have to deal with. All I can say is thank god players are diversifying their SB hate cards, because Relic of Progenitus is probably worse than Leyline of the Void in that it's equivalently just as good when drawn and in addition to that an extremely powerful top deck.

Anyway, I had a pretty good showing with this list on Saturday.

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Gigapede
4 Golgar Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Chancellor of the Forge
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy

The nice thing is every card does something in your graveyard other than Gitaxian Probe, even a Shambling Shell feels like an Ancestral Recal every turn.

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How do Baubles protect the deck from Relic of Progenitus? If you play one t1 after the opponent plays a t1 Relic, you can't discard; even if you'd be able to draw that same turn, they'd EOT tap Relic, you'd remove the Bauble, then during their upkeep, tap and exile your dredger.

EDIT: Nvm, I suppose you could drop Bauble, pass, t2 discard, then sac Bauble when needed in resp to the tap ability since the opponent doesn't get priority during the cleanup step. That's another fine reason to run Baubles in place of Chancellor of the Forge.

The maindeck I'm proposing right now for testing:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

(The above shall henceforth be called the 40 card 'core')

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Nether Shadow
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths (or, if you're extremely paranoid like I am sometimes, -1 Sphinx for +1 Angel of Despair)
1 River Kelpie
1 Flame-kin Zealot

The number of cards for consideration in the sideboard right now are still as vast as the beauty of the state of Minnesota; I'll get that figured out after I get the maindeck nailed down. Additional Baubles in the board to fight Relic and potentially improve the fast combo matchup are certainly not out of the question.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ajfirecracker

That deck sounds terrible... Cephalid Coliseum can only be activated off of Lion's Eye Diamond, and only then if you don't take any actual mulligans. The same goes (not quite as strongly) for Deep Analysis.

How well you can play through Relic depends on your list. Street Wraith, Gitaxian Probe, Phantasmagorian, and the Baubles all let you play through it. (also fetchlands if you run Dryad Arbor)

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That deck was the scourge of MTGO Classic for an entire season and can actually take mulligans and race Storm, play it before you judge it;

4 Serum Powder
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Deep Analysis
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
2xSphinx of Lost Truth
2xFlame Kin Zealot
4 Bridge from Below

SB
4 Gigapede
4 Nether Shadow
4 Street Wraith
3 Greater Mossdog

The idea is speed has more marginal utility game 1 vs aggro and combo than your SB has marginal utility vs hate, so you use your SB to transform between speed game 1 and resiliency game 2 and just completely disregard interaction.

The problem tho' is game 2, because a clever opponent is going to choose to draw instead of play, which forces you to pass and give them an 8 card starting hand. You have to have a way of punishing this by being more aggressive.

@Kevin

The Bauble doesn't protect the Dredger, it just stops you from scooping by turning Relic of Progenitus into a double Time Walk.

Phantasmagorian is a core card by any definition, but Gigapedge and Nethershadow may be better in the SB and replaced with cantrips. Given how worthless the SB is versus hate, I think SBing the "grinding engine" of Gigapede, Nether Shadow, Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast and MDing the "cantrip engine" of Gitaxian Probe and the 8 Baubles with 2xSphinx of Lost Truths and 2xFlame Kin Zealots may be the way to go if you want to emphasize Dread Returns game 1. I used a similar strategy on Saturday with swapping between Gigapede and Nether Shadow in the MD for Dakmore Salvage/Bloodghast and Baubles in the SB and sometimes felt like i was playing the deck backwards the whole day.

I'm really on the fence about whether or not the deck should play the Sphinx/Zealot engine or the Chancellor of the Forge engine for the Dread Return package tho', because resolving Dread Return is usually GG anyway and Chancellor of the Forge actually lets you resolve Dread Return faster and IS a Dread Return target on top of that.

Phantasmagorian is a core card, but the correct amount of Phantasmagorian is still up in the air, which is why I've excluded it so far from the shorthand 'core'.

Chancellor of the Forge isn't completely out of the question yet, but I want to try out Baubles in its place for a little bit, considering Baubles can replicate the effect of receiving a token by digging deeper for Narcomoebas, Ichorids, and creatures to stack on top of Nether Shadows (and Nether Shadows themselves). I'm intrigued by your maindeck/sideboard hypothesis; cutting the maindeck Shadows for Baubles, or cutting both sets of Chancellors and Shadows for eight Baubles might prove to be the best maindeck configuration, as I do think that this is a Dread Return deck instead of a Bridge from Below/Ichorid deck like its orthodox counterpart.

Relic of Progenitus is okay against this deck, but it's only great if they get it turn 1 and we don't have any of the truly great ways of playing through it. It's like a less-conditional, less-powerful Leyline of the Void. Clearly those are the only 2 cards that are reasonable (read: awesome) against this deck, which I think is pretty tolerable, so long as we can convince people not to run them.

@Kevin - I like your decklist, but I think you'll probably find that the extra Nether Shadow and Phantasmagorian aren't necessary. In any case, it's close enough to mine that I have a really hard time complaining about it. I think 40 cards is actually a little small for the core. I seem to be the only person who thinks you don't need all 4 Phantasmagorian and all 4 Nether Shadow, so you can almost certainly include at least 2 of each in the core, possibly ignoring me and counting all 8. Additionally, I would be unsurprised if Gitaxian Probe was not considered an auto 4-of in the near future. This could actually displace some number of Dread Return as players try to shoehorn in Bloodghast + Dakmor Salvage alongside the rest of the good cards.

@FinalFortune - I really don't think you even need the grinding package. Grinding out the games is an awesome plan in the relevant matchups (and against some forms of hate), but the faster package is pretty good at grinding out games as well (which I think was Kevin's main point). I think you're probably better off with a combination of very general reactive cards in your sideboard, including Chancellor of the Annex against the Duress decks, and some form anti-combo package.

Edit: After reading up on the LED/manaless list you were discussing, Fortune, it seems like it has a decent chance of winning on Turn 1-2 and a decent chance of winning on turn 6-10 (due to no LED). I don't think that actually helps at all against anything except Belcher or Spanish Inquisition, as even the fastest of the other storm decks will often take a few turns to set up, allowing us to hit them with Cabal Therapy in that window, which implies we'd rather just be more consistent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau

Phantasmagorian is a core card, but the correct amount of Phantasmagorian is still up in the air, which is why I've excluded it so far from the shorthand 'core'.

Chancellor of the Forge isn't completely out of the question yet, but I want to try out Baubles in its place for a little bit, considering Baubles can replicate the effect of receiving a token by digging deeper for Narcomoebas, Ichorids, and creatures to stack on top of Nether Shadows (and Nether Shadows themselves). I'm intrigued by your maindeck/sideboard hypothesis; cutting the maindeck Shadows for Baubles, or cutting both sets of Chancellors and Shadows for eight Baubles might prove to be the best maindeck configuration, as I do think that this is a Dread Return deck instead of a Bridge from Below/Ichorid deck like its orthodox counterpart.

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I don't really understand your hypothesis regarding this deck being a Dread Return deck instead of an Ichorid/Bridge from Below deck because theoretically the only thing that makes it a Dread Return deck is deciding to replace engine cards with Dread Return targets and accelerating into Dread Return as quickly as possible. If you want to play Dread Return centric deck, nothing is more Dread Return centric than the list I posted above.

Also, Phantasmagorian and the number of Phantasmagorians isn't debateable, there isn't a single card in this deck that you want to see in your hand or in your graveyard more than Phantasmagorian. It's like a Street Wraith you can Dredge into, it's absolutely fucking ridiculous at increasing the goldfish.

I'm not certain I'd trade Chancellor of the Forge for Baubles, it's more of a question of Chancellor of the Forge vs the Sphinx/Zealot package because you have to ask yourself whether or not Dread Return targets are win more and how many dead cards you want to have in your hand or graveyard. Chancellor of the Forge is interesting because it gives the deck an alternative Dread Return target and accelerates the deck into Dread Return at the same time.

@AJ

I don't think a reactive SB has the same utility as a SB that plays thru' hate instead of against it, I was really impressed by how SBing into the Dakmor Salvage/Bloodghast package just let me laugh off Tormod's Crypt in my match up vs. Affinity yesterday.

I'm not certain the match up vs. Storm is salvageable, Duress/Thought Seize backed by combo is just a beating and boarding 4 Chancellor of the Annex and 4 Mind Break trap doesn't sound very appealing. Also, can somebody explain to me why the hell people are SBing Cantagion? Nobody plays Yixlid Jailor, and Gutshot is better vs. Yixlid Jailor anyway. I don't get it.

Al of that aside, I'm starting to question whether or not Manaless Dredge is an overreaction to Mental Misstep, because while playing LED Dredge (the Parcher list) either my opponent or I chose to draw game 1 every game and I could just play around Mental Misstep and Daze by discarding my Dredger and sand bagging my Lion's Eye Diamond, Break Through and/or Putrid Imps game 1 and then could board in Tireless Tribe, Firestorm and Ancient Grudge like normal. My main problem with Manaless Dredge is that game two is just awful, awful, awful if they are smart enough to make you play, pass and start the game with an 8 card hand because there's no opportunity cost they'll miss their chance to counter your spells with Daze or get Cabal Therapied.

I would like to say I have drawn some ideas from this thread, so lets try to continue the talk about this interesting take on Dredge.

My 75 looks as the following:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Street Wraith
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Nether Shadow
4 Shambling Shell
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
1 Angel of Despair
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Contagion
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Mental Misstep

It hax a playset of baubles in the main and I side them out game two with the exception of 1 Urza's usually for the quad Leyline of Sanctity barring other Dredge/Reanimator and Mental Misstep. The idea for having Baubles in the board isn't that bad but the deck has alot of wiggle room to work with, and I like the idea of Mindbreak Traps too since they have much more value discard spells are not in the game. Mental Misstep stops Relic, and Leyline does too to a extent. Jailer and Scavenging Ooze are hit by the Contagion which I feel is relevant.

My interesting take on the creature plan is to just win with Troll or Angel destruction and nothing fancy. I do think Bloodghast are needed if you want to play through more hate since more creatures = a better plan Ba. Atleast angel pitches to Ichorid, so game 1 I have alot of consistancy regardless of it opponent wants to hit Baubles with FoW/Counterspell. Games two and three it's pretty luck oriented from there on out.

The finer points of the deck is that it's extremly customizable so theres alot of debate that can be had on what is correct for the mainboard and side. I think Gigapede is actually a card that can be used to play around hate this way. You discard guys with Gigapede every turn to get it back, but in games two when they have a relic and tapping you down for 1 Gigapede finds its way into the graveyard somehow (be it baubly or street wraith at this point,) you swap whatever dredger was gonna be dredged in your graveyard for that fat troll in your hand and Gigapede replacing the troll. I guess if anything Gigapede speeds your dredges consistantly and would improve game one speed for never having to dredge for 3.

If they tap Relic after you DDD and you pitch Gigapede, you can Bauble-Street Wraith it for 1 of those to take the hit, then in their turn make them bust relic on gigapede and friends or tap again for the other fodder cantrip. In your turn dredger hits so the gamestate usually proceeds from there. I don't know, but Gigapede seems like it would smoothen you out on a few corner cases. The case of having no mana I think is something that is right in front of us for tech, but it's harder to justify.

I'm thinking the general shell looks like this:

// Dredgers - 16
4 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

// Free Discard Outlets - 4
4 Phantasmagorian

// Free Dudes - 12
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow

// Free Draw - 8
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

// GY-Goodies - 12
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

That leaves us with 8 flex slots, some number of which must be DR targets (so, perhaps only ~4 slots are completely flexible).

Of course, some may have reasons to diverge from that shell, but I think most could agree to this as the generic build.

As for the Flex slots, I think 3 (if not 4) of them are coming to be solidified for me:

+2 Sphinx of Lost Truth (I've actually been happy with 3)
+1 Flame-Kin Zealot

This is a Dread Return deck. You chain Sphinx's until you have a lethal FKZ. It is fairly rare to fizzle, and you win the turn you go off.

I've been trying a bunch of stuff in the last 4 slots. I'm coming around to agree with ajfirecracker, at least to some extent, favoring baubles. The speed of baubles outweighs what something like Gigapede brings to the table.



peace,
4eak

I go back and forth on Gigapede in the MD or in the SB, right now I'm SBing 4xDakmor Salvage, Bloodghast and Gigapedge, and to me Gigapede appears to be at its best when you combine it with the Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast engine because you have a greater density of threats in your hand that need to get into the graveyard.

The thing about Gigapede is that it's difficult to judge how much speed and consistency it gives the deck, because you'll have those situations where you'll want to get that Cabal Therapy or Bridge from Below into the graveyard as fast as possible and it's impossible to compare the utility of that to just Dredging X more cards.

I definitely think it's the most "cuttable" card in the deck just because it's so much worse than Phantasmagorian and it doesn't do anything that your end step or Cabal Therapy can't do.

I kind of envy Rausch's list just because every card in that deck does something from the graveyard, it's a giant, lumbering pile of inevitability and pretty much what you want to SB your deck into.

Hi,
i haven't tested the manaless build yet. I just feel that being open to the 2 best things opponents can do in the first 2 turns isn't good:
1) Getting killed in the first two turns , can happen to every deck without counter
2) Lakey, Goblin isn't that much of an issue right now, but this can easily be a tough MU.

I feel that Baubles are better than Probes, becasue they can't be Misstepped.... which was the reason to play Manaless.

Hey, i'm actually playing the list from Nicholas and my problem is, i don't know to counter Leyline of the Void, because Leyline of Sanctity doesn't help me against it.
So, how can i counter this? Or is this already discussed and i'm too stupid to read it?

K1w1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by K1w1

Hey, i'm actually playing the list from Nicholas and my problem is, i don't know to counter Leyline of the Void, because Leyline of Sanctity doesn't help me against it.
So, how can i counter this? Or is this already discussed and i'm too stupid to read it?

K1w1

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You lose to it. Just move on to the next game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

You lose to it. Just move on to the next game.

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What about if I have chancellors of the forge in my opener? They could've kept a bad hand having mulled into LotV, have no gas and 20/10/7/5 turns later you win! :p

Yeah, not gonna happen, is it. Still if you've got the time it's better than autoscooping!!!