[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

This is my current decklist, as of 10/2/08:

B/u/w ANT

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [R] Tundra
1 [ON] Swamp (4)
1 [P3] Island (3)

// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [4E] Ad Nauseam
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [7E] Duress
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [PS] Rushing River

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [A] Plains (1)
SB: 4 [GP] Repeal
SB: 4 [6E] Serenity
SB: 1 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

The information below is the original post from 9/19/08:

Since there is alot of dicussion about the card Ad Nauseam, since most of the decks being presented in the brainstorming thread do not fit directly into the FT, TES, or SI threads, and since there are so many different ideas going on in that thread, I've decided to create a thread specifically for variations resembling mine.

First, just to start this off, is a list:

B/u ANT

Lands (14)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Swamp

Spells (46)
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ad Nauseam
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress
4 Pact of Negation

The deck can easily splash a 3rd color if it needs to... like green for Krosan Grip or red for Red Elemental Blast. The B/u list above is a nice starting shell to work with. Once I (we) figure out exactly what the deck wants/needs, we can work on splashing colors and/or making adjustments. I also don't have a sideboard built yet for the same reasons.

This thread is for archtypes of storm combo specifically building around Ad Nauseam (without molding prexisting combo decks around the card). This thread is also for builds more closely resembling the list(s) in the opening post... builds with 8 0cc creatures and Culling/Diabolic, for example, should probably go in a different thread.

The general construction of the decklist above includes: 14 lands, 20 accelerants, 4 Brainstorm, 8 tutors, 4 engine cards, 2 win conditions, and 8 protection spells.

I'll go through some card breakdowns:

14 lands may be too much but I feel comfortable with 14 lands and 8 shuffle effects. I can see the deck dropping to 12 lands if it really needed to.

Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal should be unquestionable given that 0cc artifact mana is very strong with AdN.

Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual produce alot of black mana, which is exactly what AdN + Tendrils wants. It is arguable that Rite of Flame could replace Cabal Ritual in a red splash, though I'd still favor Cabal Ritual because I think black mana is more valuable.

LED/Infernal Tutor is very strong. They accelerate very well into AdN, as well as after AdN resolves. Sometimes they may be dead if you have AdN already in hand... even if you do, you still have other cards to win the game for you, and LED/IT is still a strong backup plan if it gets countered or after AdN resolves.

Mystical Tutor is the strongest tutor the deck has access to, IMO. "U: search for protection, AdN, Dark Ritual, whatever you need" is exactly what the deck wants. It is basically a 1cc setup spell that enables the next turn win.

We're already in blue, Brainstorm with fetchlands is far too strong to not be included. Taking a page out of FT, Brainstorm + 8 fetchlands is really strong.

4 Ad Nauseams shouldn't be questioned. The deck wins when it resolves AdN and always wants to see AdN. Multiple AdN's is only bad if the first AdN resolves, which is irrelevant anyway.

An interesting thing that you'll notice is Pact of Negation replacing Orim's Chant. With AdN replacing IGG, the deck doesn't need to rely on the protection from Chant (to make the engine good). AdN wins once resolved and Pact makes sure AdN resolves.

Pact of Negation is very strong. The deck plays setup cards like Mystical Tutor, which usually don't get countered, and then plays AdN on the following turn. Since AdN wins when resolved, the deck only worries about resolving AdN. Pact does this perfectly for 0 mana. This can quicken the win by a full turn with little consequence.

Duress sets up the protection wall; Duress lets you know whether or not you can win [through Pact] in games where you slowplay (Landstill or Threshold).

Mystical Tutor enables consistent Duress + Pact.

Duress + Pact has been extremely strong in testing.

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The deck can easily cut the lands down to 12 and Tendrils down to 1 to fit more cards... I'm just not sure what cards it needs right now. I think 1 IGG, 1 EtW, 1 bounce spell, and several other cards are worth tying out.

The deck can also splash for a 3rd color, whichever color would benefit the deck most (mainly via sideboard options). A 3rd (or more) color splashes are welcome. I figured B/u was a very solid starting point for working with the archtype.

I'll add more content to the OP as more content comes in.

For now, my current deviation from the starting list I posted is:

B/U/r ANT

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Badlands
1 [CST] Swamp (1)

// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [4E] Ad Nauseam
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [7E] Duress
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 4 [4E] Red Elemental Blast

This will most likely change... I'm simply showing what new development I'm working on right now.

Hi,

Some things I like to point out.

1: Your manabase. It looks quite unfocussed. You don't need the full complement of Fetchlands. 6 fetchlands with Brainstorm is enought. You don't need to use deckthinning, because additional lands are zero damage of AN, and fetchlands do damage you. I would also play at least an Island. The fist turns you want to Brainstorm/ Mystical Tutor. If you can fetch an Island turn one you can better deal with Magus or Wasteland. On top of that your rituals produce B. So after you used AN a single black mana is enough, but sometimes you need more U( for Mystical Tutor+Brainstorm or something)I would play 14 lands something like this.

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
2 Swamp

11 lands produce B turn land and 12 U. 7 swamps and 8 Islands.

2: I would play another wincondtion other than AN, and the choice would be Ill-Gotten Gains. It ups the turn 1 kills a little and wins without damaging your lifetotal, which might be important against fast decks. You could probably remove a AN or Tendrils for it.

3: Pact of Negation is nice but doesnt combo well with Lion's Eye Diamond. Has it ever come up in testing?

BB

With the second list I posted, the B/u/r version, some of your concerns are addressed, Benie Bederios.

I think 8 fetchlands is fine... even without fetching, it provides protection against Wasteland and makes grabbing the land you want more consistent. A 1-of Island isn't necessarily a bad idea though, I could drop 1 Undergound Sea for 1 Island without much problem. I usually don't put more than 3 lands into play (the usual is 2), so at worst I'm seeing 3 life loss from fetchlands, which isn't that bad.

Saying that more lands are good with AdN is wrong: you're not worried about how many cards AdN draws, you're only worried about hitting the right cards to win. All an extra land does is cause a dead flip, since it's going to be a dead card in hand. 0 life loss, 0 relevant card drawn.

I do agree that deck thinning is irrelevant, since again, it doesn't matter if you do or don't draw lands with AdN. That's not why I'm running fetchlands, though.

The deck does have another win condition in Empty the Warrens, which also happens to be strong against countermagic (except Stifle). The deck can easily generate 5-6 storm to make a turn 1-3 EtW lethal without relying on AnD. IGG is susceptible to countermagic moreso than EtW, which is why I prefer to run EtW over IGG maindeck. I do run 1 IGG sideboard though, along with 4 Leylines.

I've yet to have an issue with Pact of Negation, honestly. It does what it's intended to do. It has no less negative synergy with LED than FoW would. Pact sits in hand to protect casting AdN. The 0 mana cost is one of the main reasons I use the card... if it cost 1 mana, I'd run Red Elemental Blast, Orim's Chant, or even Thoughtseize in its place.

If I need proactive disruption before I cast AdN (like in a situation where I would need to resolve LED/IT to grab EtW), I still have Duress.

The fact that Mystical Tutor can grab both Duress/Pact prior to going off makes the protection very consistent.

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So I'll try cutting 1 Underground Sea for 1 Island in my B/u/r list and see how it goes.

On a sidenote, this deck can be called ANT for short, since that's easier than AdN-T. ANT fits right in with the other easy acronyms like FT, TES, and SI. Could a mod rename the thread to ANT instead of AdN-T, please?

Some players in the Spanish Inquisition Thread are working in a version witch 0cc creatures (robots or kobolds), Culling the Weak, Diabolic Intent and Rainbow Lands.

Perhaps you can take ideas from it.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...t=6099&page=18

-B/U/r is probably going to be the right set of colors. Red has EtW, Burning Wish, REB, Shusher, and mana acceleration (if we chose to use it). The deck needs answers to hate, and red can do that.

-8 Fetches are fine. Guaranteeing shuffle with Brainstorm is too important. It opens the third color up very consistently too. It avoids waste. The lifeloss is not as relevant as many might think.

-AnD-T decks can afford to be heavy on land. This seems like an important part of AnD, as it gives you options that most TPS decks can't afford. Land is consistent, reusable, uncounterable mana-production. The only reason not to have too many lands in AnD-T is because it minimizes your business spells in hand pre-AnD. The more protection we choose to run, the more land we should run in this deck. Also, Brainstorm mitigates a high-land count.

-I love mystical tutor in this deck. Remember that you can run 1-of's-- even 1-of protection spells too. A single FoW, for example, may have a place in the deck.




peace,
4eak

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 4eak

I love mystical tutor in this deck. Remember that you can run 1-of's-- even 1-of protection spells too. A single FoW, for example, may have a place in the deck.

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Why tutor for FoW when u can tutor for Pact of Negation? If you don't have AdN in hand, u'd obviously tutor for it. If you do have it in hand, you obviously use the counter to protect your AdN.

If your AdN resolves, you win anyway.

FoW also have the potential to lose you 5 "business cards" if you flip it up first when you cast AdN.


Btw. I wouldn't worry too much about breaking AdN... But i'll leave that discussion some where else. (Can we have a thread dedicated on whether it'll be banned or not? Later on, we can see who's right who's wrong just for fun).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Saying that more lands are good with AdN is wrong: you're not worried about how many cards AdN draws, you're only worried about hitting the right cards to win. All an extra land does is cause a dead flip, since it's going to be a dead card in hand. 0 life loss, 0 relevant card drawn.

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Could this warrant a spot or few for Mox Diamonds? That way you can turn dead land-draws into storm and rainbow mana. Chrome Mox is strictly better before Ad Nauseam with this low land count, still, but Mox Diamonds could make your AdN draws a bit better.

With a 14 land manabase, Mox Diamond is going to be worthless before you cast AdN. Mox Diamond is only useful after you've cast AdN, at which point it doesn't matter anyways because you won. I've only fizzled after resolving AdN in a couple goldfishes out of about a hundred. It's not worth running Mox Diamond.

You draw alot of cards with AdN and you don't need most of them. Pitching excess Duress/Pacts/etc is usually not a problem for Chrome Mox after you resolve AdN. Chrome Mox is strictly better than Mox Diamond and the deck does not need any additional acceleration (especially not Mox Diamond, anyway). 20 accelerants have been plenty for me in testing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

With a 14 land manabase, Mox Diamond is going to be worthless before you cast AdN. Mox Diamond is only useful after you've cast AdN, at which point it doesn't matter anyways because you won.

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If that is the case, I hear you. How many cards you draw by average from Ad Nauseam with this list?
And do you always cast it during your own turn?

Quote:

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How many cards you draw by average from Ad Nauseam with this list?

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It's completely random everytime I cast it. Sometimes I can draw 20 cards, sometimes I just hit double AdN for 10 lifeloss and can only draw 5 cards. It also depends on what my current life total is at, as well. If I have 18-20 life, I can easily draw 10-15 cards. If I'm at around 12 life or so, I can usually go for 7-12 cards.

Regardless, there are very few times where I cast Ad Nauseam and fizzle.

So far in testing, I've cast Ad Nauseam in my mainphase everytime. Casting it on the opponent's end of turn invalidates Pact of Negation as protection. The storm count generated in the mainphase is also relevant quite often. Honestly, the card would be more broken as a Sorcery since it would make Burning Wish > Mystical Tutor.

@Boogy_Boy


My main point is that 4x Mystical is very powerful because it allows you to run singletons. I used FoW just as an example--not because I'm saying it absolutely must be in this deck. My exact words were:

Quote:

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I love mystical tutor in this deck. Remember that you can run 1-of's-- even 1-of protection spells too. A single FoW, for example, may have a place in the deck.

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It was merely an example, so please keep that under consideration.


As to your specific criticism of FoW:

The idea of running FoW in a Tendrils combo deck, even with a card like AdN or Confidant, is not an uncommon idea. Vintage in particular does this all the time, and I suspect that as TPS begins to speed up in Legacy you'll see more reasons to play protection like FoW in storm combo. This deck doesn't always win on first turn, and sometimes the unique protection that FoW can offer is necessary and difficult to substitute.

While I definitely think PoN deserves to be in this deck, that doesn't mean a single FoW is out of the question. FoW is versatile where PoN is not; you can choose to play control for a single turn where PoN can't. Duress, in large part, does mitigate the possible losses of Pacting into a control deck, but there are still cases where FoW would be very useful where PoN wouldn't.

For example, Combo vs. Combo, there are times when Duress isn't as strong as a counter. PoN, unfortunately, is a counter used in win-now situations exclusively, and it doesn't play control. I look at PoN as very specific offensive PRO-active disruption on the stack, and sometimes the deck could use a single defensive turn. FoW can do things that PoN can't. Remember that Duress doesn't kill Brainstorm protected hands, and it is here that FoW does what few cards can.

I certainly don't mean to say FoW must be in the deck, but it could be an appropriate card in the right metagame.

Mystical makes for versatile decks and versatile sideboards (FoW was just one of many possible cards it could grab).



peace,
4eak

Quote:

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Sometimes they may be dead if you have AdN already in hand... even if you do, you still have other cards to win the game for you, and LED/IT is still a strong backup plan if it gets countered or after AdN resolves.

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Have you guys thought about Inferno Tutoring AdN before you play it? You do remember there's the first part to Inferno Tutor? :p
Pulling out another AdN means 1 less chance to run into it. If you Inferno Tutor for a AdN you already have in hand turn 2, you will combo off much more safely turn 3.

Also, if you have problem with drawing only 3 cards with AdN, maybe 1 angel's grace MD? It can cancel the effect for Pact of Negation too. lol. So guess it's like a poor-man's version of FoW.
Thought it might be a "win more"


@ 4eak
icic. my mistake.

I like the idea of starting the combo with Angel's Grace instead of Orim's Chant: draw your whole deck and win. It still requires the Duress, Chant or Pact, though, and Angel's Grace is somewhat useless before the combo. Hopefully.

I can see a 1-of Angel's Grace be good at allowing the deck to go off with an EtW win that was protected via Pact of Negation. Not really sure it's worth splashing white for, though. I think Orim's Chant seems more relevant, since it has synergy with the IGG in the sideboard.

Going 4 colors is pushing it, IMO. At that point, with only 14 lands, going Rainbow would be more stable... which in turn makes Brainstorm bad, which I don't think is worth it.

The bigger question is: what is the best third color splash?

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For right now I'm starting my testing with red. I think EtW is extremely valuable to the deck. Going for the uncounterable win, especially when you can't reach a lethal storm count for Tendrils for whatever reason, can win games. Many decks in the format can't answer 10-12 1/1 tokens early in the game when they aren't prepared for it.

I have not yet tried the Red Elemental Blasts out of the board yet to determine if they are worth going red for or not. My guess right now is yes, since they can replace Pact of Negation against Counterbalance decks... you will usually play a little slower in these matchups anyway and REB can counter Counterbalance. It's also just as good at resolving AdN as Pact of Negation is, although harder on the manabase.

Shattering Spree is another good red card, useful against Dragon Stompy, Stax, etc. Chalice is the most problematic card for this deck when resolved on turn 1 for 0, and Spree answers multiple Chalices and Trinispheres, too. The lack of red mana production in the maindeck does worry me about the card though. 1 red mana source and 4 Lotus Petals does not seem like enough to support big Spree's... though adding some Rite of Flame's could easily fix that.

Is Rite of Flame worth splashing, maybe as a 2/2 split with Cabal Ritual? I believe that needs to be determined with playtesting. The deck easily hits BB consistently right now and 2 Rites could easily make REB's and Spree's more playable.

I'm going to try dropping 2 Cabal Rituals for 2 Rite of Flames and dropping 1 Chain of Vapor from the sideboard for 1 Shattering Spree and see if it still runs effectively (without using the sideboard).

If you wanted to splash for a single fourth color, namely white, we might try this:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island

I'm not convinced that white really brings enough to the deck though.

Quote:

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The bigger question is: what is the best third color splash?

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Red.



peace,
4eak

Pact of Negation isn't good, it's 5cc, it doesn't protect Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond and it doesn't stop Counterbalance. You're better off running either 8 discard, 8 Abeyance/Orim's Chant or a mix.

Red is the best splash, Empty the Warrens, Vexing Shusher and Red Elemental Blast are better than either Orim's Chant or Krosan Grip.

Don't cut Cabal Ritual for Rite of Flame, especially for less than 4 Rite of Flame.

Run 1 Empty the Warrens MD.

Pact of Negation's mana cost and converted mana cost are both 0.

The point of it is though, you can play pact OR LED+ Infernal.

You cant play both in the same deck efficiently.

I personaly perfer the pact/cullings version with no ITs you get to play 8 copys and have 8 disruption the rest is mana so you always get there when you draw it..

LED is good, dont get me wrong, but you want to keep your CC down...

Quote:

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Pact of Negation isn't good, it's 5cc, it doesn't protect Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond and it doesn't stop Counterbalance. You're better off running either 8 discard, 8 Abeyance/Orim's Chant or a mix.

Red is the best splash, Empty the Warrens, Vexing Shusher and Red Elemental Blast are better than either Orim's Chant or Krosan Grip.

Don't cut Cabal Ritual for Rite of Flame, especially for less than 4 Rite of Flame.

Run 1 Empty the Warrens MD.

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Eh?

Pact of Negation is 0cc.

I'm not worried about Counterbalance maindeck. It's not dominant enough in the metagame and this deck can usually resolve Ad Nauseam through countermagic before CounterTop goes online. Chalice is more devastating IMO, and REB doesn't answer that. The fact that Pact of Negation costs 0 instead of R is very relevant, IMO.

You'll also notice the REB's in the board.

Vexing Shusher is not as good as Krosan Grip. It eats removal (yes, some decks leave in some removal), it's mana intensive, and it cannot be tutored by Mystical Tutor.

I do run 1 EtW maindeck in the red splash, obviously.

You are right about 2 Rite of Flames being moronic though, but I'm not really sure how to buff up the red mana sources to make REB's and Spree's better. I don't want to go with SSG's because being 3cc is not worth it.

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I'm going to try this and see how it works:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [A] Underground Sea
2 [B] Badlands
1 [ON] Swamp (4)

// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [4E] Ad Nauseam
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [7E] Duress
4 [U] Red Elemental Blast

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 4 [TO] Cabal Ritual

However, I'm pretty sure maindeck Cabal Ritual and Pact of Negation with IS the better maindeck configuration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Pact of Negation isn't good, it's 5cc,

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

If you have 5 mana after casting IT and popping LED, why wouldn't Pact of Negation protect it?

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Step 1: Learn the rules
Step 2: Build a deck
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit

Don't switch Step 2 and Step 1.

Edit:

Quote:

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Was learn the rules directed towards me?

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To both of you.

Quote:

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Cause... last time I checked

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Check again.

In order to do the IT/LED trick you have to pop the LED before you pass priority, so when your opponent has a chance to counter it you have 0 cards in hand. You cant drop IT, give your opponent a chance to counter, and THEN pop LED. You have to do both at once, and then give the other guy a chance to counter, meaning that if you IT and pop LED, your pact is in the graveyard, and you don't have any way to protect IT (assuming you haven't already duressed).

The ???? Profit thing is a Slashdot reference.

I dont know how many time I need to shout it.

PACT OF NEGATION ISNT LEDS FRIEND THEY HATE EACH OTHER.

Pact cannot protect "IT, sac LED" this is why its BAAAAAAD together.

I was high when I included that in my text but in playtesting I haven't actually done that. Disregard and carry on.

@ Brehn, stop being a troll.

@ Hanni, what I meant was Pact of Negation is 5cc if you plan on using Pact of Negation to protect Ad Nauseam EOT or you have to stop, pass, untap and win or you have to stop Counterbalance.

Pact of Negation doesn't protect Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond into Tendrils of Agony from Stifle, and it doesn't protect Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond into Ad Nauseam from counters. Just using discard to protect both Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond into Ad Nauseam from counters and Ad Nauseam into Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond -> Tendrils of Agony from Stifle is more efficient.

I never said Vexing Shusher was better than Krosan Grip, it doesn't even make sense to compare the two because Vexing Shusher and Krosan Grip are both green. I meant the aggregate of Empty the Warrens, Red Elemental Blast, Pyro Blast and Vexing Shusher were more valuable than the aggregate of Krosan Grip and Vexing Shusher

You need to be real, real concerned with Counterbalance, designing a combo deck that gold fishes over unprepared opponents isn't as important as designing a combo deck that can stand up to Threshold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

@ Brehn, stop being a troll.

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I love you too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

@ Hanni, what I meant was Pact of Negation is 5cc if you plan on using Pact of Negation to protect Ad Nauseam EOT or you have to stop, pass, untap and win or you have to stop Counterbalance.

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1. It's still not correct that Pact of Negation is "5cc" (i. e. "has a converted mana cost of 5")
2. Hanni never planned using Ad Nauseam EOT and has realized that

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Casting it on the opponent's end of turn invalidates Pact of Negation as protection.

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before you've posted your incorrect statement which "meant" something different than you've written.

Maybe the next time you could write what you "mean" to avoid such a confusion?

/troll

I tried the 4 Rite of Flame 4 REB list and it is just not as consistent as the 4 Cabal Ritual 4 Pact of Negation list.

I'd still run REB in the sideboard against decks running Counterbalance. The fetchland manabase should be able to consistently make R when you need it to postboard, but don't plan on casting double REB with any consistency.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brehn

I love you too.



1. It's still not correct that Pact of Negation is "5cc" (i. e. "has a converted mana cost of 5")
2. Hanni never planned using Ad Nauseam EOT and has realized that

before you've posted your incorrect statement which "meant" something different than you've written.

Maybe the next time you could write what you "meant" to avoid such a confusion?

/troll

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Except using Ad Nauseam EOT does come up when you have storm and need mana, so Pact of Negation not being able to protect Ad Nauseam EOT for less than 5 mana on the following turn is relevant, and not being able to stop, pass and untap for less than 5 mana is the main point. Excuse me for giving people enough credit to figure out I was referencing the upkeep instead of the actual cc, I didn't think it'd be that hard to figure out you'd have to either pay for the card or die on the following turn when it's written into the text.

@Hanni, yeah Cabal Ritual is just better than Rite of Flame. I don't think Blasts are good in the main but that doesn't mean Pact of Negation belongs in the main either. I'd just run 4 Thought Seize and 4 Duress if you want 8 disruption pieces, discard seems like the way to go because Orim's Chant adding + W on the combo turn really gums up the works.

Quote:

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I dont know how many time I need to shout it.

PACT OF NEGATION ISNT LEDS FRIEND THEY HATE EACH OTHER.

Pact cannot protect "IT, sac LED" this is why its BAAAAAAD together.

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Capslock is really annoying. Seriously. Just stop holding down shift when you type things. Your meaning doesn't come across any more clearly just because all your letters are capitalized, and if you're looking to add emphasis, bolding text or putting text in italics is a lot nicer both in connotation, and in physical form.

Quote:

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Except using Ad Nauseam EOT does come up when you have storm and need mana, so Pact of Negation not being able to protect Ad Nauseam EOT for less than 5 mana on the following turn is relevant, and not being able to stop, pass and untap for less than 5 mana is the main point.

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I think the real reason not to use Pact is that it gets pitched when you go for IT/LED, which is still what any good AdN deck will be doing a % of the time. What I would like to see in these lists are more duress effects.

On a side note, what does everyone think of 4x Duress, and 4x Chant main? The chants might be easier on the lifetotals than thoughtsieze, and going with gold lands instead of fetches duals really shouldn't be a problem.

Quote:

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You need to be real, real concerned with Counterbalance, designing a combo deck that gold fishes over unprepared opponents isn't as important as designing a combo deck that can stand up to Threshold.

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I probably haven't tested the Combo v. Threshold matchup enough to be able to claim this fully, but wouldn't 8 duress effects be enough to ensure counterbalance doesn't hit the table before you win? It seems as if this deck is fast enough to just win before they can resolve the card, barring the land top land counterbalance hand, and that should probably be solved by throwing duress effects at your opponent.

Although this is probably retarded, I just realized that the B/u version could actually run Counterbalance. The deck should be able to easily support UU with minor modifications.

Drop the IT/LED combo for 4 Top 4 Counterbalance, and voila. The deck is no longer as fast or as explosive, but the deck abuses Counterbalance with Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, and Top, and curves out almost perfectly for it.

B/U Counterbalance ANT

Lands (14)
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island

Spells (46)
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Duress
1 Wipe Away
1 Tendrils of Agony

Honestly not sure right now whether it's any good... the abudance of 2cc stuff makes AdN a bit weaker, though the deck might be able to cut 1-2 AdN's, I dunno. The decklist is definitely interesting. Whether or not it's worth it or not is undetermined at this point.

At first I thought ad nauseum would be one of the few decks in legacy that could use pact of negation but as always any combo deck that uses LED can't really use pact effectively. I think a combination of therapy + duress/thoughtseize would probably be best because it works with LED, before and after ad-nauseum. I was also thinking of an off the wall idea of putting 4 birds of paradise and 4 orcish lumberjack in to accelerate the deck plus once they have served thier purpose you can sacrifice them to therapy, diabolic intent and culling the weak. I admit its strange but an idea all the same

Quote: Today, 05:56 PM
Pulp_Fiction
This message has been deleted by Pulp_Fiction. Reason: I will not post in threads where someone suggests Counterbalance in a combo deck

Is it just me or is this the wrong attitude when discussing ideas. I'll grant you that it might not be the most inspired thing anyone has suggested but how many times do crazy ideas end up doing something creative and interesting. Food chain in goblins, patriachs bidding in goblins, furnace dragon in affinity's sideboard. There have also been several cards people dismissed initially as unplayable like force of will and bazaar of baghdad. My point is that things are in a constant state of flux and you never know when a crazy idea will pan out:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Drop the IT/LED combo for 4 Top 4 Counterbalance, and voila. The deck is no longer as fast or as explosive, but the deck abuses Counterbalance with Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, and Top, and curves out almost perfectly for it.

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The reason CounterTop isn't run in combo lists is because it doesn't protect from Force of Will, not to mention that it has no clock. No clock other than a combo is weaker vs. their Counterbalance + their FoW + their clock.

as for a list, I do like the route you are going with this, but a few things:

-3 AdN
+3 Cunning Wish

I'd give that a try. Honestly, I would. Hitting Cunning Wish instead of AdN gives you 2 more life to work with each time, and is a valuable card AFTER you play AdN, whereas additional AdNs are absolutely dead cards, not to mention it gives you a bit of flexibility with fighting hate (for instance, you could grab a PoN from your sideboard instead of running them MD; Chant, Angel's Grace for when you NEED to win or for saving yourself for a turn from a Pact if you DO decide to run it, hell, you could even run a 1-of FoW in your SB just as a wish target). and you can wish EoT for AdN instead of Sorcery-Speed Tutoring for it. It's an instant also, which means you can leave go at the end of opponent's Turn Wish into it.
B/U Counterbalance ANT

Lands (15)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island

Spells (45)
3 Chrome Mox
3 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Cunning Wish
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
1 Wipe Away
2 IGG
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB-15
1 AdN
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Rushing River
2 Pyroblast
1 Extirpate
1 PoN
1 FoW
2 Shusher (?)
1 Echoing Truth
2x ???

The idea is that you can use AdN as a suprise factor/draw-4, using the IGG kill mostly. When graveyard hate is present, you can simply wish for AdM and go off that way. This has the feel of TES in my opinion in that it uses red accel. and wishes, as well as a Draw-4 (in this case, a draw-X). I suppose that you could put a D. Returns in the SB as well, but I don't know how that would be better than an AdN.

Maybe?

LMK how you see it.

I'm not saying that the Counterbalance route is good, I'm saying that it is interesting and probably deserves a little testing on my end.

Quote:

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The reason CounterTop isn't run in combo lists is because it doesn't protect from Force of Will, not to mention that it has no clock. No clock other than a combo is weaker vs. their Counterbalance + their FoW + their clock.

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If I have Counterbalance out, Mystical Tutor putting AdN on top actually does stop an opponent's FoW.

Cunning Wish lacks synergy with Counterbalance, though. If I was going to run additional tutoring, it would be with Lim-Dul's Vault. Although Cunning Wish can be versatile, setting up the maindeck draw seems really strong. The lifeloss of LDV is still too restrictive to run alongside AdN, though.

The deck could even run 4 Tombstalker and 4 FoW postboard as a transformational sideboard. Between all of the fetchlands and accel, casting turn 2-3 Tombstalker's shouldn't be a problem. Just an idea. The deck can also run 4 LED 4 IT postboard to come out for Counterbalance and in against decks like Goblins and Dragon Stompy.

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I'm obviously not giving up on the B/U/r IT/LED build, as in testing that list has already proven to be very powerful. I am going to spend the next time I get to playtest on the Counterbalance version, though, just to see if it's worth it or not. At the very least it looks very fun.

I think I've just got there,

4 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Seize
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp

I know it looks retarded, but the idea is you use Brainstorm, Ponder and Serum Visions as one big engine to filter thru' your deck while either building Threshold for Cabal Ritual or stacking Ad Nauseam on top of your deck for Lion's Eye Diamond. You've got 0 outs against permanent based hate but you've got 8 discard spells for permanent based hate, so you just disrupt, draw, draw, draw and then go off.

It's rough, but you're about guaranteed to hit 3 land drops and Threshold on turn three and it's ridiculously consistent.

Two things:

1)Why are people so hellbent on not wanting to cast AdN on the opponents end step? In most cases this would be useful, you are playing up against decks either packing FoW or counterspells that actually cost them mana. Very few people are going to be able to CounterTop into FoW to stop you, and in nearly all cases, past turn 2-3, it's going to take a single ritual to power out.

2) Why are people advocating 4 LED's in a deck set to abuse a card drawing spell? There are two times in this counter infested meta that I'd ever be willing to crack LED:

1- I've ripped their hand of countermagic, or
2- I'm going to combo off in Ichorid (and even there I hate LED).

The deck doesn't need LED as an acceleration tool. You'll get plenty of use out of Petal, Moxen (either or), and rituals, LED is just asking for trouble on resolving critical spells. With the exception of Tendrils or AdN itself, everything in the deck is practically 0-2 mana, and a single AnD resolution should put you well above needed cards & mana to reach a lethal Tendrils.

I HATE the idea of playing >1 AdN in any deck. Why? It knocks 1/4 of your life down, and it's a dead draw. I'd rather tutor into it than anything. I can't see any way to go off with it EoT other than wishing into it. While that's possible, that requires 8 mana, and you aren't actually going off, you just used a draw-X to set up your win the NEXT turn.

BTW, you better have some sort of removal that's tutorable--Teeg pwns you.

IDK, I can't figure this out for the life of me...It seems useable, but I can't see a scenario atm outside of TES that it screams "My Milkshake and all that, wot wot".

Pce,

--DC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Except using Ad Nauseam EOT does come up when you have storm and need mana, so Pact of Negation not being able to protect Ad Nauseam EOT for less than 5 mana on the following turn is relevant, and not being able to stop, pass and untap for less than 5 mana is the main point. Excuse me for giving people enough credit to figure out I was referencing the upkeep instead of the actual cc, I didn't think it'd be that hard to figure out you'd have to either pay for the card or die on the following turn when it's written into the text.

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Which is why I have been saying Angel's Grace MD.

me: EoT AdN (God. since when has MtG got so much abbreviation O.o).
opponent: counterspell
me: Pact of Negation.
me: Draw half my library because AdN is seriously broken. If lucky, play EtW?

Untap. Upkeep. Pact upkeep goes on tack. Cast Angel's Grace.
Swing with EtW token ftw or play the 30 or so cards in your hand? Or you could do both and put them at -40 life????

Just to clarify. Not saying Angel's Grace is a must. I just thought this scenario is pretty "cool".

If lucky = your opponent not noticing that EtW is a sorcery, then sure...

In other words, that won't work. Just wait until your 1st main phase to combo off.

I think Angel's Grace is a must. Somehow it just makes damn sense to draw your whole fucking library save one card for next turn's draw. If you are going to do it, do it like a combo player--all the fucking way.

Pce,

--DC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DeathwingZERO

Two things:

1)Why are people so hellbent on not wanting to cast AdN on the opponents end step? In most cases this would be useful, you are playing up against decks either packing FoW or counterspells that actually cost them mana. Very few people are going to be able to CounterTop into FoW to stop you, and in nearly all cases, past turn 2-3, it's going to take a single ritual to power out.

2) Why are people advocating 4 LED's in a deck set to abuse a card drawing spell? There are two times in this counter infested meta that I'd ever be willing to crack LED:

1- I've ripped their hand of countermagic, or
2- I'm going to combo off in Ichorid (and even there I hate LED).

The deck doesn't need LED as an acceleration tool. You'll get plenty of use out of Petal, Moxen (either or), and rituals, LED is just asking for trouble on resolving critical spells. With the exception of Tendrils or AdN itself, everything in the deck is practically 0-2 mana, and a single AnD resolution should put you well above needed cards & mana to reach a lethal Tendrils.

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1) Because casting Ad Nauseam EOT sacrifices all of the storm.
2) Because Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond into Ad Nauseam is the nuts and Ad Nauseam into Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond is convenient.

LOL @ AdN not needing LED, you obviously haven't played with this card, AdN needs LED like a junky needs a fix.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

1) Because casting Ad Nauseam EOT sacrifices all of the storm.
2) Because Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond into Ad Nauseam is the nuts and Ad Nauseam into Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond is convenient.

LOL @ AdN not needing LED, you obviously haven't played with this card, AdN needs LED like a junky needs a fix.

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1.) I find this laughable. I fail to see how drawing X spells off of one card during an EoT step sacrifices all of the storm.

2.) Seems true.

I'm not sure it needs it QUITE that bad, but...whatever. Its a little situational and dependant upon what you drew.

Pce,

--DC