[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

After its debut top 4 performance at the Source Anniversary tournament I present to you Team America:

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Sinkhole

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Krosan Grip
3 Diabolic Edict

The history behind the creation of this deck is quite interesting, as it sort of started out as a joke deck of Dave Gearhart's, referred to as "Europe". It was blue and black only, played confidants and stalkers as the only creatures, combined with the same LD package as Team America. Also, it played 4 maindeck extirpates and no removal. To say the least it was pretty bad (although pretty fun to play). The name was a reference to the vast differences between European and American legacy meta games, and was a homage to alot of cards that rarely see play in America.

As time went on, Dave and I started changing the deck around, at one point playing dreadnoughts in the main and also adding snuff outs. Eventually tarmogoyfs were added and the deck started looking strong. So, we started testing it and preparing the sideboard and maindeck for the Source tournament. Dave of course was locked in to playing It's The Fear, but me and Eric G. (Bourgeoise) decided to give Team America a shot. Eric had some rotten luck in the swiss (pun intended), but I went X - 0 and wound up finishing in the top 4.

The idea behind Team America was essentially to merge the successful elements of tempo based threshold and suicide black. A proactive disruption suite, and a total of 12 "free" spells (force of will, daze, snuff out), allows this deck to be a tempo-generating machine. The 8 threats it plays must all be answered quickly, as they end the game in short order, and the cantrip base of 4 ponder/4 brainstorm smooth out the deck's consistency; something where traditional suicide strategies tend to fall short.

While Team America does not run as many threats as a deck like Eva Green, and lacks the explosiveness of dark ritual, it gains powerful cards like force of will and daze, along with a cantrip engine. It is not quite as consistent as threshold lists running top but you unfortunately make that sacrifice to be more proactive.

I (as well as Dave) will probably be able to go more in depth with some of the card choices as questions are asked, but the list really is quite tight and well tested. The only real controversy right now is the argument of hymn to tourach over sinkhole. Both cards brutally attack an opponent's resources in different ways, but when it comes down to it it really is a metagame consideration. With more blue based aggro control, hymn is probably going to be stronger. If more multicolored control decks show up, as well as survival, sinkhole is going to probably be a better choice.

I will say this: I ran into threshold type decks a few times in the swiss and still was able to pull out victories, while drawing and playing sinkholes. It is too early to tell which is better, but that's where the development of the deck is currently.

At any rate, please discuss. I hope you guys like the deck as Dave and I (as well as the rest of the NoVA legacy players) put a lot of work into testing it.

P.S. Tombstalker is a very underplayed, amazing threat.

The deck seems almost too simple but I really like it. Congrats on your finish. Why Snuff Out over Smother or Ghastly Demise? Is the free affect worth it. That's my only question.

Ironically, I thought of this one back when I was in oklahoma jake :cool: ...

Congrats on the fishish!


Why were you running edict in the board?

It seems terrible as a board card.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Rack

The deck seems almost too simple but I really like it. Congrats on your finish. Why Snuff Out over Smother or Ghastly Demise? Is the free affect worth it. That's my only question.

---

Elegance in simplicity; it is really focused on doing what it's supposed to do. Snuff Out is way better than Smother and Ghastly Demise simply because it is free. In a tempo-driven deck like this where you want mana open for stifle, or to tap out to play sinkhole or ponder on your turn, snuff out is insane. It's even more insane in this deck than it is in Eva Green. Ghastly Demise isn't so hot with tombstalker, or when facing down a dreadnought or huge terravore, and smother costs too much.

Snuff out also has the added bonus of evading counterbalance. On more than one occasion at the Source tourney I was able to play removal through a counterbalance "lock" and win with tombstalker.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

Why were you running edict in the board?

It seems terrible as a board card.

---

Diabolic edict is unconditional removal and is fantastic against threshold-type strategies. It comes in when snuff out just won't do, or to augment the removal suite. Edict really was great all day.

If your opponent is actively playing around Stifle, how good is it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frogboy

If your opponent is actively playing around Stifle, how good is it?

---

Then it served a purpose in slowing them down.

You need the speed to make sure that your plan executes well. If they voluntarily slow themselves down to try to "kill" a theoretical card that you may or may not have, then the card has done it's job without you even needing to play it (obvious simplification, but accomplishes the goal nonetheless).

I would prefer my opponents trying to play around Stifle rather than walking into it (in some scenarios) simply because I don't always have Stifle. It makes the card a lot better when your opponent fears it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frogboy

If your opponent is actively playing around Stifle, how good is it?

---

In a tempo deck like this, that might even be better then stifling something. Especially since you can just leave U open and bluff the stifle getting the same effect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frogboy

If your opponent is actively playing around Stifle, how good is it?

---

Then they're distorting their strategy to some extent, making your other cards that much better.

• Tombstalker is a great card, but if you had to play another threat, what would it be?
• After the source tournament, do you think you would do anything to the list, even just minor tweaks?
• Is a report in the works?
• Needs more Extirpate. Totally.

Edit- wow, I got posted over by 2 people answering the same question. Great minds think alike.

how does the goblin/elves/zoo matchups look for this? do you just distrupt them early with discard and free kill/countermagic and cantrip into more answers? seems like if your creatures got StP'd while you are trying to counter their shit you would be in some trouble.

also, how do you deal with blood moon? just counter it? dont you wish you had basics sometimes?

this deck looks sick though. you just play free shit, and cantrip into more free shit.

i think that bitterblossum could find a place in this. Its just as dangerous and harder to remove. It is just mediocre vs. counterbalance if you don't protect it when you play it or try to distrupt before it comes down. it would be nice just to run 2 just to increase your threat density.

also, could mystical tutor find a place in this? tutoring up creature kill in certain matchups seems like it could be very important. you may not always find it by cantriping.

i also think that hymn is looking stronger. but i dont play the deck, so yeah.

EDIT:

btw, remand is also massively underplayed.. its not too expensive either, and it cantrips.



EDIT #2:
Yeah i'd love to see a tournament report too and see how this thing plays.

Start using capitals or start receiving warnings.

-PR

It seems like it would be hard to consistently represent Stifle in the 20 land deck with nine fetchlands, particularly when you're playing Thoughtseize, Ponder, and Tarmogoyf. To do so would seem like it slows you down as well, and possibly have some cost associated with Brainstorm.

I'm aware that it's symmetrical, but have you considered Smallpox in the Hymn/ Sinkhole slots? Maybe another threat, perhaps?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by raharu

I'm aware that it's symmetrical, but have you considered Smallpox in the Hymn/ Sinkhole slots? Maybe another threat, perhaps?

---

We tried Quirion Dryad for a bit, but that wasn't too great. You can't afford to lose one of your threats to smallpox, and it hurts you more than it does most decks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nitewolf9

We tried Quirion Dryad for a bit, but that wasn't too great. You can't afford to lose one of your threats to smallpox, and it hurts you more than it does most decks.

---

Actually, that leads into another suggestion I was going to let gestate, but I'll mention now: What about some sort of creature recursion, such as Volrath's Stronghold in place of the Bayou, adding in more late-game resilience and a bit of inevitability? That, and if I were to suggest another threat wouldn't be Dryad, but either Werebear (which is still larger than most of the format, in case you were wondering) or a utility critter/ something a bit more resilient/ something solid in the late-game (I hate tempo/ fast non-combo decks without a contingency plan). Maybe something like DC (which isn't fitting to the deck's gameplan, much like Bitterblossom, so no) or a singleton Gigapeede and some River Boas. Maybe -4 Sinkhole -1 Bayou, +1 Gigapeede, +1 Volrath's Stronghold, +3 River Boa? It's a bit non-sequitorish with the rest of the deck, though. I'd rather the Volrath's Stronghold and 4 Smallpox. iDunno.

After playing dreadstall and having daze be relevant so often so late (stifle,wasteland) I can only imagine that sinkhole is a house in here.

The fact that Tombstalker dodges all commonly played removal but STP is rad and both it and Snuff Out dodge counterbalance.

With the addition of cantrips, this deck has successfully addressed my largest gripe with Eva Green.

Furthermore, while the explosiveness of ritual, and the power vs. control of hippie will be missed I always felt that shade was better than nothing but not very good.

Given the current interest in Adnauseum, the 4 stifles and free counters MD poise it strongly vs. most combo. I'd love to see the metagame breakdown of the Source Tourney but I am interested to see how much aggro was there and with this deck now on the scene how well it will stand up.

Overall sweet deck and looks like a hoot!

Huh, something small I feel like pointing out is the use of nine fetches in order to fuel tombstalker :P

Otherwise, I don't know. Seems simple yet (fairly) effective. Moon effects hurt you a lot though. In fact, blood moon says lose game and magus of the moon says that you lose without a snuff out. In fact, looking at it, the whole mana-base seems really fragile. 16 color lands and then wasteland with three colors...Seems rough with how many decks run sinkhole/wasteland/stifle, all of which are really going to hurt you. Have you really not been having trouble with that?

I really like the list, and will have to keep an eye out for this thread, and the development of the deck. As I am currently working on building a Red Death budget deck, and am curious about any and all variants on the Suicide decks. I would have to obtain most of all of the cards in this deck list. However if this deck does in fact prove to be a decent contender in the coming year or two, it may be worth getting the cards needed to make this deck, so that I can start playing the list.

However for now I think I am going to stick with Red Death as a deck to work with. Thank you for sharing "Team America" and congrats on your finish.

Additionally I agree, this deck would lose so fast to Dragon Stompy the way it is currently posted.... needs some basic, even if it is a basic swamp (the most crucial for this deck is the swamp not the islands) but could include both a swamp, and an island. The list I would run is as follows:

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Sinkhole

3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest

I played and tested a 3c deck (UBg) similar this for a while, around the time when I was toying around with B/g/w Deadguy Rock, and I agree to the strength of this concept. My list then wasn't exactly the same as this right now, but I agree your deck is really strong.

What I like most is the synergy of your cards; LD and Daze are very synergistic together, for example. I would not drop the Sinkholes for Hymns out of the maindeck, though I do think additional discard in the sideboard could be a good idea.

However, I do question the strength of Snuff Out in here. While I agree that some of its usage is very strong, running only 16 black spells and already running CDA in Force of Will seems iffy. I have not tested it, and will not disagree with the choice; I'm merely questioning it.

Also consider Nimble Mongoose (between the decks 75), since you clearly have the ability to establish Threshold. Not sure if it's necessary, but 3 different threats (and one that is especially nice to the curve) is solid. 1cc 3/3 untargetable continues to be extremely strong in this format, Goyf or not.

Other than that, it looks really good. I'd personally like to see Pernicious Deed in the sideboard, especially since it's so strong with Tombstalker and answers random problematic decks for you, but that's probably metagame dependant.

Nice job with your Top 4 finish, btw. Congrats.

EDIT: On a sidenote:

Quote:

---

Given the current interest in Adnauseum, the 4 stifles and free counters MD poise it strongly vs. most combo. I'd love to see the metagame breakdown of the Source Tourney but I am interested to see how much aggro was there and with this deck now on the scene how well it will stand up.

---

Actually, you are right about this and wrong about this at the same time. Stifle is good against Ad Nauseam, but not because Stifle hits storm. Rather, Stifle'ing fetchlands is really strong against B/u/w ANT. However, against a 5c version more in the approach of TES (no fetchlands), Stifle is actually a subpar card against Ad Nauseam. ANT has the resources to be able to either Duress or Chant you before it finally casts Tendrils, so using Stifle to hit the storm triggers is unlikely to happen.

Quote:

---

However, I do question the strength of Snuff Out in here. While I agree that some of its usage is very strong, running only 16 black spells and already running CDA in Force of Will seems iffy. I have not tested it, and will not disagree with the choice; I'm merely questioning it.

---

You're aware you don't pitch a black card, right?

Wow, I was totally thinking of a different removal spell for some reason. That's what happens when your slightly drunk and post at 2:45 AM.

At any rate, I disregard my previous statement and completely agree 100% with Snuff Out as the removal of choice for this deck.

Seriously: I am tired of seeing decks like this. It's just a bunch of good cards thrown together as a 4-off each. I see neither any synergies nor any innovation. It looks like BG Suicide, only that is was designed as UB.

The development process likely was: "Hey, let's make some UB aggro deck. Just take the black part from an already good aggro deck (Suicide Black/Eva Green) and then just add in some good blue cards (Brainstorm, FoW, Daze, Stifle), that Threshhold runs already. It can't be bad."
And in the end you thought "well, let's splash green to add Tarmogoyf".
Then make every card a 4-off and tell us you invented a new deck.
Come on, where's the innovation here? Anyone and my grandmother can post a decklist like this. Not that is bad or something, but it is boring as hell.

And why is this deck in Established Decks forum? only because it made Top4 once?

1. Attack the idea, not the poster.
2. Don't back seat mod; use the report post function if see an issue with something.

-PR

I agree with TheLion.

I play a deck like this but there is actual thought to it and the numbers of cards are not 4 of everything. I would post it but I don't think barely missing Top 8 twice by losing the last round qualifies.

too bad ITF really have synergies if you look further.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nitewolf9

Eric had some rotten luck in the swiss (pun intended),

---

Har de har har har, nice joke.

@ Raharu

Take a step back and consider the decks manabase for a second, adding a Volrath's Stronghold as a random one of could seriously screw you out of a game. I would say that at the moment we are running about the minimum as far as colored sources of mana go, that is unless you want to risk not being able to play your spells in a timely fashion. Also, the Bayou serves a very important and easy to discern role in the deck. With a Bayou and an Underground Sea in play you can cast any spell in the deck (with 6 cards in the graveyard for tombstalker if you want to get picky), without the Bayou you would need 3 lands to play any spell in the deck since you need to be able to hit double black and be able to hit green to cast tarmogoyf.

As to suggestions about more threats: Gigapede - How do you expect to cast Gigapede at 5 mana with only 3 green duals in the deck when you want to start by cutting one of said duals? River Boa - This creature seems situational to the extreme, do you want to keep one of your remaining two green dual lands untapped so you can regenerate? Does this provide you with a sufficient clock against combo, after cutting one of your best disruption spells? Does goblins even care? Find me a mana efficient creature that is able to advance this decks gameplan while making up for the loss of the sinkhole/hymn slot and I'll do some testing with it and let you know how it goes.

Also, in case those paragraphs were TLDR, don't cut the Bayou.

@ Vacrix

My opinion on remand is as follows, it might qualify as a personal opinion but maybe you will come to a similar conclusion about why Remand might be an underplayed card: Remand never completely answers a threat, it cantrips you sure, but the point of spending mana to counter a spell is to never see it again. If you spend the mana and take the time and effort to counter a spell it normally means that the spell would be bad for you if it resolved. There is never any circumstance in which remand is a hard counter unlike force or daze. It does not provide you with card advantage and you still need a way to deal with the spell that you remanded. If you want to try it out I encourage you to do so and power to you if it works. I would rather play street wraith (since it takes no mana investment to cantrip you) to draw me into a relevant answer to a game changing spell and Street Wraith will never ever be in this deck. Ever.

@ Cathal83

With this deck your dream first turn play against an unknown opponent is thoughtseize with daze in hand, to pull this off you need an Underground Sea in play. While I agree that chalice/trinisphere/blood moon/back to basics decks can be bad for you, I think that adding basics is the wrong approach. With this deck you want to be the aggressor and running basics just to increase your potential percent against a certain archetype will probably also hurt your chances against that same archetype by randomly cutting you off of the color of mana you need early game to make sure your opponent doesn't get their game plan started. Also, basic forest? Am I supposed to just randomly draw into this and kill the dragon stompy player that I failed to stop with my game plan and allowed to land a blood moon with all of my tarmogoyfs? There isn't even a way to fetch it in your list.

In regards to cutting the Bayou read the first paragraph.

@ Hanni

There is an extreme amount of dissynergy (it's probably not a word but you should know what I mean) between Nimble Mongoose and Tombstalker
so I'll just ask: what would you have me cut for Nimble Mongoose and is Nimble Mongoose actually better than the card you want to cut? Note: Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf are much better threats, you should probably keep around the 20 blue cards to properly support Force of Will, leaving the other two black slots which are a very important disruption spell and the deck's only maindeck removal. Also, there seems to be dissynergy between tarmogoyf and tombstalker but in testing and in match play so far this has never been an issue and I'm sure that this has been covered somewhere in the Eva Green thread.


@ TheLion

Please refrain from just attacking an idea/deck after a simple glance and very little reading this is a forum for discussion about magic decks and magic theory. What does synergy mean to you? Does it mean LD with daze? How about thoughtseize which helps you to set up your play decisions for a few turns and helps decide between dropping your threat or further disrupting your opponent? This deck combines some of the best disruption with some of the best countermagic and two of the best finishers in legacy.
Also, do you mean to tell me you want to see a deck that runs shitty cards instead of the best cards for the job this deck is trying to accomplish: stop your opponent from playing magic while you beat him silly with a fuglystick.

What card would you like to run as less than a 4 of? Every card in this deck you want to see as early as possible depending on the matchup. If you feel this way about this deck you have never played then feel free to not look or comment - it is your choice - but keep in mind that your fellow sourcers see your posts and if you ever create a deck that does extremely well at a legacy event of this size, and you know, plays good cards, people might be reluctant to leave you feedback or even care, so please be respectful.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That being said this deck was a blast to play and worked pretty well against the field. Some matchups I would like to see discussion on improving would be Ichorid and fast aggro decks, destroying all of Peter Rotten's lands then dying to 3 one drop creatures was no fun :(. It's not that I feel this deck needs more threats I would just like to see my threats more often and some of my finish could be chalked up to pure bad luck (like seeing one Tombstalker out of my 8 creatures through 31 cards of my library in round 2). I strongly suggest doing at least a little testing with the deck against various archetypes before posting ways to fix the deck (if it is in fact broken in any way) as it is not quite like anything I've played before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourgeoise

Please refrain from just attacking an idea/deck after a simple glance and very little reading this is a forum for discussion about magic decks and magic theory.

---

What I mainly see in TheLion's post is his observation of the fact that all the cards in this deck have a high power level on their own and don't necessarily complement eachother. There are strong control cards, combined with strong finishers. Each card is on its own a good card. The way this deck may be seen as new and innovative is that it's exactly about that. No CounterTop, StifleNaught, PainterStone where you need two cards to go completely broken. This struck me as 'too easy' at first too, but I must say, the simplicity of it has great potential.

Quote:

---

@ Vacrix

My opinion on remand is as follows, it might qualify as a personal opinion but maybe you will come to a similar conclusion about why Remand might be an underplayed card: Remand never completely answers a threat, it cantrips you sure, but the point of spending mana to counter a spell is to never see it again. If you spend the mana and take the time and effort to counter a spell it normally means that the spell would be bad for you if it resolved. There is never any circumstance in which remand is a hard counter unlike force or daze. It does not provide you with card advantage and you still need a way to deal with the spell that you remanded. If you want to try it out I encourage you to do so and power to you if it works. I would rather play street wraith (since it takes no mana investment to cantrip you) to draw me into a relevant answer to a game changing spell and Street Wraith will never ever be in this deck. Ever.

---

i see your point, but consider this. how relevant is a hard counter? sure it never completely answers a threat, but it digs deeper into your deck, and stalls your opponent for a turn. against aggro, on the play you can counter 1 drops and remand essentially becomes a timewalk. against aggro, on the draw you can counter their 2 drop and it essentially becomes a time walk. why does it matter if you snuff out it next turn or thoughtseize it out of their hand? or even daze it if you waste one of their lands? against control you can remand your own spells making it function like a hard counter in some sense. against combo they still have to build up to playing their business spell. if the opponent plays AdN by playing Dark Rit and sacing LED in their upkeep, how relevant is the fact that they have it back in their hand when you will kill them before it even matters? remand is underplayed because people do not see the obvious advantages that result from it. i have always found it to be a phenomenal draw against aggro especially and its decent enough against the other 2. i mean, you had a choice i bet you would run 4 timewalk in here. its just too good an oppurtunity to pass up. but ya if you don't want to run it i can see why. but is sinkhole really that much better? everything else seems like an extremely strong draw all the time, though the synergy between it and daze is pretty good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vacrix

against aggro, on the play you can counter 1 drops and remand essentially becomes a timewalk. against aggro, on the draw you can counter their 2 drop and it essentially becomes a time walk.

---

No. They still get to draw a card and have a land drop. Remand doesn't even come close to a Time Walk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vacrix

i mean, you had a choice i bet you would run 4 timewalk in here.

---

Remand is not a Time Walk. Stop thinking it is.

I put toghether a quite similar deck some time ago and the low threat density turned out to be its major flaw, too. This kind of deck does want to play aggressivly and have a big boy on the table by turn 3. To make sure you can do that consistantly I think you need to up the threat count to 10.

Another reason for that change is the weak lategame those kind of decks tend to have: the LD plan is likely to have failed if you reach turn 18; Sinkholes, Stifles, Daze and Thoughtseize kinda suck now plus there's no way you can establish control due to the entire lack of CA engines like CB or Bob. The bottom line is: adding 2 more threats lowers the chance of having to struggle through undesirable lategame scenarios.

Unfortunately there isn't a single creature out there that could complement the overall strategy. As prerequisites it should boast a max. of CMC 3 (2 would be better), no double color cost, be strong on its own (no other conditions like threshold). Evasion would be good. Somebody please enlighten me if I missed an obvious choice here..
---
On a completely different note: I really like those 3 Edicts in the board their inclusion is completely viable.

How is this more proactive than thresh... Thresh plays more than 8 creatures, the same cantrip/draw engine and has more solid removal with counterbalance. But at the same time I guess proactive doesn't necessarily mean threat density.

The deck does seem pretty cool though and grats on the finish.

Also, to thelion, if you read his opening post he actually tells you how the deck came about, he didn't just throw a whole bunch of good cards together and say 'ta-daaa'...

As far as your claim the deck doesn't have synergy well then... are you kidding me? What's your definition of synergy?

This deck is insane, I just played against it there was squat I could do. Sinkhole, Stifle, Wasteland and Daze just gave my opponent so much tempo and then he just dropped Tombstalker and I was history. Great deck, very elegant design a great job guys!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourgeoise

@ TheLion

Please refrain from just attacking an idea/deck after a simple glance and very little reading this is a forum for discussion about magic decks and magic theory. What does synergy mean to you? Does it mean LD with daze? How about thoughtseize which helps you to set up your play decisions for a few turns and helps decide between dropping your threat or further disrupting your opponent? This deck combines some of the best disruption with some of the best countermagic and two of the best finishers in legacy.
Also, do you mean to tell me you want to see a deck that runs shitty cards instead of the best cards for the job this deck is trying to accomplish: stop your opponent from playing magic while you beat him silly with a fuglystick.

---

What I mean, is that this deck looks so boring and so obvious like Burn.dec, which just packs the best burn spells available. It is nothing really new. It is just another twist with UB staple cards, we see in every deck, tried out in a new mix.
Take the best (good on their own) UB cards and splash Tarmogoyf. Nothing more.
I miss synergies such as in Armageddon Stax, Pox or Aggro Loam. Well, Daze + LD is a synergy, but a very small one. Playing Thoutseize is of course none.
However, I really think this deck is good, just nothing special.

I've already mentioned how I think this deck is awesome. There is pretty close to nothing I would change about it.

Interesting to note that it's only two cards different from Dread Stalker -- Tarmogoyf and Sinkhole instead of Dreadnought and Vision Charm. This is a pretty obvious set of swaps, so I should have thought of it. (Though clearly, that makes it not Dread Stalker any more -- they're two different decks).

Many of you are totally misreading this deck. This is one of the most aggressive decks in the format. Would you play Volrath's Stronghold in Suicide Black? Would you play Gigapede in Thrash? You wouldn't play them here either.

As regards the "lack of synergy" and "unimaginative" comments, I think this is one of those decks which seems completely obvious in hindsight, but needed a stroke of genius to have been first discovered. It's as if no one in the past -- what, five? -- years had discovered Threshold as a deck, and someone had just now built it. And yeah, there's no blindingly in-your-face synergy like "holy shit, Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top are a combo!", but every card in the deck is nonetheless focused pretty single-mindedly on advancing the game plan. (Basically: by the time the opponent gets to resolve spells which matter, very big monsters for very little mana have reduced their life to very unpositive levels). It's not just a collection of very good cards. It's a collection of very good cards which work very well together. The deck has synergy in the same way Sligh and all the other classic archetypes of Magic have synergy. (EDIT -- And yeah, like Burn. If no one until now had ever thought of building a deck full of efficient burn spells, I would call it a pretty imaginative idea.)

Incidentally, this is a very clear example of a deck I would not play Extirpate in. What was the thinking on Crypt versus Leyline?

And am I right in thinking that the next best threat for this deck after Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf (if you want one) is likely to be Sea Drake?

(Have I mentioned I love this deck? Also.)

EDIT again --

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nitewolf9

P.S. Tombstalker is a very underplayed, amazing threat.

---

I frequently wish you could play like, six.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheLion

What I mean, is that this deck looks so boring and so obvious like Burn.dec, which just packs the best burn spells available. It is nothing really new. It is just another twist with UB staple cards, we see in every deck, tried out in a new mix.
Take the best (good on their own) UB cards and splash Tarmogoyf. Nothing more.
I miss synergies such as in Armageddon Stax, Pox or Aggro Loam. Well, Daze + LD is a synergy, but a very small one. Playing Thoutseize is of course none.
However, I really think this deck is good, just nothing special.

---

+1. I'm also bored by those decks. Especially the aggrocontrol ones. It's quite easy to throw together some great cards and do well. I did some testing with a list I threw together in like 10 minutes and it just did well, because it's goodcards.deck

// Lands
1 [UNH] Swamp
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [A] Tropical Island
1 [7E] Island (2)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
1 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Note that this deck has also a lot more sinergies than Team America.

That obviously doesn't mean Team America is just a bad deck nor that it isn't capable of doing well. We're just pointing out that it's nothing new or exciting. Everyone with free 5 mins (and maybe 1 afternoon testing) could do that.

EDIT:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Illissius

Interesting to note that it's only two cards different from Dread Stalker -- Tarmogoyf and Sinkhole instead of Dreadnought and Vision Charm.

---

Yeah, that's what we were talking about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Illissius

Interesting to note that it's only two cards different from Dread Stalker

---

Yes, as GreenOne already stated, this is exactly what I am talking about.
Too many decks pack the same 50-55 cards over and over again and are presented to the community as a completely new deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Illissius

I think this is one of those decks which [...] needed a stroke of genius to have been first discovered.

---

You make jokes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheLion

It's just a bunch of good cards thrown together as a 4-off each.

---

And why exactly is that bad? It played well, didn't it?

Also, I kind of assumed it would be a UWR deck. I love the simplicity, as I'm a big fan of 4-ofs. Good job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sasa_batora

FoW, Daze, Thoughtseize. These are 12 spells to combat Moon and with Snuff Out, there are 16 of them against Magus.

---

There are no TA Swamps with Magus online: "no Swampies=no Snuffy Outy"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourgeoise

@ Cathal83

With this deck your dream first turn play against an unknown opponent is thoughtseize with daze in hand, to pull this off you need an Underground Sea in play. While I agree that chalice/trinisphere/blood moon/back to basics decks can be bad for you, I think that adding basics is the wrong approach. With this deck you want to be the aggressor and running basics just to increase your potential percent against a certain archetype will probably also hurt your chances against that same archetype by randomly cutting you off of the color of mana you need early game to make sure your opponent doesn't get their game plan started. Also, basic forest? Am I supposed to just randomly draw into this and kill the dragon stompy player that I failed to stop with my game plan and allowed to land a blood moon with all of my tarmogoyfs? There isn't even a way to fetch it in your list.

In regards to cutting the Bayou read the first paragraph.

---

Fair enough. I would at the very least like to see some basic lands run in the side board for the purpose of dealing with such match ups as Dragon Stompy. Of course that could entirely be a meta call, but I think for an unknown Meta it could be a very strong strategy!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourgeoise

@ TheLion

Please refrain from just attacking an idea/deck after a simple glance and very little reading this is a forum for discussion about magic decks and magic theory. What does synergy mean to you? Does it mean LD with daze? How about thoughtseize which helps you to set up your play decisions for a few turns and helps decide between dropping your threat or further disrupting your opponent? This deck combines some of the best disruption with some of the best countermagic and two of the best finishers in legacy.
Also, do you mean to tell me you want to see a deck that runs shitty cards instead of the best cards for the job this deck is trying to accomplish: stop your opponent from playing magic while you beat him silly with a fuglystick.

What card would you like to run as less than a 4 of? Every card in this deck you want to see as early as possible depending on the matchup. If you feel this way about this deck you have never played then feel free to not look or comment - it is your choice - but keep in mind that your fellow sourcers see your posts and if you ever create a deck that does extremely well at a legacy event of this size, and you know, plays good cards, people might be reluctant to leave you feedback or even care, so please be respectful.

---

I completely agree with this Comment, Bourgeoise! You do not usually need negative feedback on a deck thread. That doesn't mean that you aren't going to get such negative feedback. However it isn't usually welcome. My answer to negative feedback is usually to ignore it however.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourgeoise

That being said this deck was a blast to play and worked pretty well against the field. Some matchups I would like to see discussion on improving would be Ichorid and fast aggro decks, destroying all of Peter Rotten's lands then dying to 3 one drop creatures was no fun :(. It's not that I feel this deck needs more threats I would just like to see my threats more often and some of my finish could be chalked up to pure bad luck (like seeing one Tombstalker out of my 8 creatures through 31 cards of my library in round 2). I strongly suggest doing at least a little testing with the deck against various archetypes before posting ways to fix the deck (if it is in fact broken in any way) as it is not quite like anything I've played before.

---

fair enough, I will have to do some testing... unfortunately I can't proxy the deck up at the moment... so I am not entirely sure how exactly I am going to do that testing...

I've been trying a similar deck these last days, but black as main color and lowcost spells to support confidants.

That's my list:

Creatures (11):

4xDark Confidant
4xTarmogoyf
4xHypnotic Specter
3xNantuko Shade

Spells (28):

4xDark Ritual
4xHymn to tourach
4xDuress/Thoughtseize (still have to test alot if bob can support this loss of life)
4xSinhole
4xSmother
4xDaze
4xMana Leak

Lands (21)

4xPolluted Delta
2xWindswept Heath
4xUndergound Sea
3xBayou
4xSwamp
4xWasteland

Sideboard (15)

4xLeyline of the Void (or Tormod... playing Bob)
2xBlue Elemental Blast
2xHydroblast
4xKrosan Grip
3xPernicious Deed

Hey,

Really congratz on the result, the deck looks really great.

As an big fan of tombstalker, eva green and the movie team america, I like this deck very much:laugh:, but I have a few questions:

Do you never run out of beats sometimes? Would shadowmage infiltrator, trygon predator, serendib efreet or the one thats already mentioned, sea drake be good in this deck? Maybe as an 2-off?

Do you ever have troubles with casting sinkhole or hymn if you play it, because there double black? Have you tested spell snare in those slots, maybe it could be really good?

And about the side, dont you miss jitte or plague vs goblins and other aggro decks? And why did you chose crypt over leyline or extirpate?


Maybe i'm gonna play this deck over eva green in the Dutch open championship because with the big amount of combo decks here in the dutch meta I think this deck would be better than eva.


Thanks, electrolyze

As for the comments about losing to Blood Moon: yes, this deck does lose to blood moon and also packs it Dragon Stompy like no one's business. Trinisphere, Moons, and chalice are all absolutely terrible for this deck, so much so that even when we shuffled up my list of Dragon Stompy and played against invisible god-hands from this deck, DS won half of them.

Consider this, though, how many people play Dragon Stompy? At the Source tourney, I knew of 3 total out of 127 (?). Is that relevant? I think that rather than screwing the deck to add a small chance to beat a bad matchup, you should focus on making it better against the vast majority of decks out there. Not to mention Dragon Stompy is a really mediocre deck (don't bother arguing this, I am right), so your chances of seeing it as a tournament progress decreases as you win.

This deck also beats on random chaff really well.