[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

[For now I'll leave this as it's own thread. After some thought, it's different enough both from traditional Elves and from traditional Survival that doesn't necessarily belong.]


Ok I figured it's time to bump this thread with what I've been working on over the past month or so. I wasn't going to bother posting it, but after BirdMan's recent top8 with it at Eli's Beta Dual Land tournament, I decided it's worth talking about. Since it's so drastically different I think it's best if I take a primer-esque approach to catch you guys up to speed.

Here's the current list I have, which is slightly different than what he ran. I should note that this is one of roughly 4-5 lists I'm testing right now, all of which have around a 1-5 card choice change (including 1-2 more land, 1 less land, running ESG, running maindeck Masticore, etc):

The EPIC Elf Survival

4 Survival of the Fittest

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Thornweald Archer
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Wood Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Mirror Entity

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
3 Forest

Since the sideboard was his own and meta dependant I'm opting to exclude it from here.

I started working on this list because I was casually having fun with Elves and realized the potential it had. The only issue was that it really needed haste and Concordant Crossroads sucks, so I checked out Survival + Anger. I saw some other lists that tried Survival but I wasn't impressed with them at all, so I took it upon myself to give it a shot. I put my own spin on it and I really liked what I came up with. Elves on it's own is already a really fast, consistent aggro deck (Just take out the Survival engine, add in more Symbiotes and maindeck Thorn of Amethyst and that's about the only changes), and adding Survival to it not only makes it a lot more powerful and explosive and turns it into a combo deck, but also gives the deck phenomenal game outside of Survival. You have a great aggro game outside of Survival alone with Mirror Entity and 8 lords in the deck, not to mention Elvish Champion gives forestwalk and 80% of the format runs Tarmogoyf. It has a phenomenal draw engine with Sylvan Messenger that is potentially more powerful than Goblin Ringleader because of this deck's ability to play more creatures a turn with acceleration and constantly play it over and over with Wirewood Symbiote. And with Survival you just go crazy with mana and then have multiple options, including going the infinate mana route with Wirewood Symbiote and Mirror Entity, or playing a string of Messengers and overwhelming the opponent, or just dropping a couple lords and smashing in. It's much, much different than playing a traditional Survival deck because this is entirely from an aggro standpoint, so I'll be discussing how it plays out below.

Piloting the deck is very strange, at least with Survival in play. Without it you can run it on auto-pilot for the most part. You play some dudes, play some lords, play Ringleader or something, and just smash. With Survival you have a lot of options. Depending on what you're up against, the infinate mana trick is my favorite, and you can do it as early as turn 3. Doing it is simple:

Priest of Titania + Wirewood Symbiote + Mirror Entity + another elf

Generally I stay away from combos in Survival because of how bad the pieces are on their own, but given all of these slots are in the deck anyway and good on their own, it just happens to work together. The key is to have Priest tap for at least GGG. Then activate Mirror Entity for 1. This will turn all your creatures into Changelings, so Wirewood Symbiote will be an elf. It can then return itself to untap Priest of Titania. Cast Symbiote with GG floating, activate Entity for 1, repeat. It nets mana, and you go infinate and can make your creatures as big as you like and swing in. It's very easy to pull this off as early as turn 3, but it's most common on turn 4.

If you don't take that route, then you can play it to how you see fit, but it depends on the matchups. This could involve strings of chaining Priest of Titanias into lords, or playing multiple Sylvan Messengers to build up an army, or whatever you like.


Card Choices:

Survival + Squee + Anger: It's actually not the heart of the deck, but more a complement to it. Anger is what this is about, but I actually hate Squee in here, but it's unfortunately a necessity.

8 Mana Elves: They accelerate into turn 2 lords, or Survival with mana floating. Having a lot of them is golden as you have a high chance of opening with one.

Priest of Titania: 4 non-legendary Rofellos? Crack.. This is the card that really took me to building this. It is stupid good, with or without Survival.

8 Lords: This is really what gives the deck a beating outside Survival. Having all of them turns all the measly critters into small beaters, and they both have a good ability. Forestwalk is nuts in Legacy, and Perfect pumping out 2/2's every turn is awesome against almost every match. Adding an untapper like Ranger or Symbiote makes him even better. Having all of them also allows me to fight Engineered Plague a lot better.

Wren's Run Vanquisher: I consider him removal before a beater. Deathtouch is really good in here because I can shrug off creatures like Tarmogoyf easily. It also happens to be nice when Wirewood Symbiote bounces it after combat damage.

Thornweald Archer: The oddball choice, and some say it's bad, but I wanted an outlet for Tombstalker. Tombstalker can be a problem if I don't have much else going on. I've been happy with this guy so far, because it still kills Tarmogoyf all the same.

Sylvan Messenger: This guy is just dumb. I don't need to explain this.

Viridian Zealot: There needs to be some sort of artifact/enchantment removal. Sadly this guy doesn't get around Counterbalance that well, but thankfully half the deck does anyway.

Wood Elves: The other oddball slot in here. It's the worst card in the deck, but a necessary evil. I wanted a way to reliably get a white mana to cast Mirror Entity, and this guy also happens to pull Taiga to give me haste. It turns out he's really good for the deck.

Quirion Ranger: I run multiples of these because not only can it be vital to use both when trying to rack up Priest mana and combo, but it's also incredible on its own and to hit off Messenger. With so few lands, having more Wasteland protection also works. I tried running just one but I felt I really needed the second.

Wirewood Symbiote: The heart of the deck. It does pretty much everything. It protects all your other creatures leaving opponents to have to get him out of the way, it is a mana accelerator, it bounces Messenger for insane card advantage, and it allows you to combo. If space permitted I'd run 4 even if it isn't an elf, because it's that good.

Mirror Entity: This was originally Kamahl, Fist of Krosa until I noticed this is also an elf. Hitting these off Messenger is awesome. Without Survival it's insane because it very easily turns your team into a group of 4/4-6/6, or with Priest is just makes you go lethal. I run 2 of them due to the importance of it helping the combo and can grab another if it dies, but also because it's a great draw and flip off Messenger. Plus, it allows you to cast Squee and Anger in a pinch and still make them big, which is a nice plus if you draw them. This guy really puts the deck over the top.


Cards that didn't make the cut:

Genesis: He's another non-elf, and it's very rare I'm going to be using him because there aren't many singletons that I'd need to get back. He just wasn't pulling weight like he would in normal builds.

Eternal Witness: Originally in here like Genesis, but the fact it isn't an elf is really a liability. Plus, I'm not too worried if my Survival dies. The deck is very good at generating advantage without it, so I'm not too worried about it.

Rofellos: The deck doesn't run many lands, so it's hard to abuse him. Occasionally I'd like him if I don't have an opening accelerator, but the deck has enough acceleration anyway.

Masticore: Masticore is always being swapped in and out of the deck. It is incredible in here due to the high amount of mana it generates, but it always feels win more in those matchups. Generally if I can add enough to blow up someone's team, I can win instead. It's unlikely as a random draw, and it messes with Messenger. I like it in the sideboard instead.

Tarmogoyf: Some would argue that Tarmogoyf is green thus deserves its space. Sadly, it sucks, but in this deck and against it. The opponent has to do all the work to make Goyf worthwhile, and it's a waste of time. It's why Goblins doesn't run it either.

Elvish Spirit Guide: This actually isn't a card that didn't make the cut, because I'm doing extensive testing with it right now. The results are sort of wishy-washy. Sometimes it makes the deck explode with something like turn 1 Priest, Survival, Vanquisher, or lord, or multiple mana elves turn 1, and other times it seems like a permanent mana source would be just as good if not better. I like this guy, I'm just not sure if it has a place just yet. It does help that it fucks with Daze decks though.

Utility Elves and other reasonable beaters: Stuff like Caller of the Claw, Wellwisher, Chameleon Colossus, Wren's Run Packmaster, etc all fall under this category. Those guys are either sideboard material, or aren't strong enough to make the cut in the maindeck. I wanted to keep the maindeck as compact as possible, and not clutter it with more 1of's than I needed.


Sideboard:

The sideboard is still way too variable to figure it out. I have a million options on what I want from it, but this is what I have

Krosan Grip
Orim's Chant
Gaddock Teeg
Magus of the Moon
Choke
Thorn of Amethyst
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progrenitus
Yixlid Jailer
Faerie Macabre
Pithing Needle
Null Rod
Engineered Plague
Goblin Pyromancer
Masticore
Price of Progress
Wellwisher
Caller of the Claw
Other utility I'm possibly forgetting?

The main issue is that I haven't entirely narrowed down all of the bad matchups yet in it's entirety and built the sideboard around that. I have a pretty good idea though from what I've gathered from two months of testing. For now, this is my default sideboard based off the harder matchups:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Choke
3 OPEN SLOTS

Matchups:

Counterbalance Threshold: Favorable.

These decks are easy prey because they have little removal to handle all of your creatures, and you have a lot of guys to get around Counterbalance. Tarmogoyf isn't too big of a problem with all the chump blockers you have, and it's hard for them to stop you if any of your bombs (Survival, Champion, Perfect, Entity, Symbiote/Messenger) go unchecked. Black is a bit harder due to Engineered Plague and maybe Thoughtseize, but you're already bringing in Krosan Grips and then Choke and Magus of the Moon lock them down as well. Red can be an issue though because of Pyroclasm and Firespout. That card alone gives them a shot. Plague can be fought around, but those cards mess with you bad. Pyroclasm isn't as bad as you can fight it with double lord, but Firespout is hard, because Magus doesn't stop it. The matchup is still favorable, but can easily be lost due to that.

Tempo Threshold/ Team America : Slightly Favorable-Even.

These matches are usually blowouts on one side of the other. Tempo tricks are either hit or miss here. Either Elves is going to blow you out with acceleration to the point where LD is useless, or you'll hit a single land, kill a creature and put it out of the game. For the most part, you have a better chance at beating Team America and UGB Thrash down than UGR Canadian. Canadian has more removal with Fire/Ice and post-board Firespout/Clasm to do serious damage, so that can be a lot harder to win through. If you manage to circumvent any random mana screw then it's difficult to lose because you have so many creatures and they have so few blockers.


Landstill: Unfavorable.

This is bad, but not hopeless. If it's a 4c build then it's a lot worse, because Pernicious Deed is rough. The lack of disruption in discard hurts here because you can't hit them then resolve a bomb. You just need to rely on pulling cards and hopefully resolving Messengers to stay ahead in CA. Post-board you have Magus and Choke to help, maybe Grip, maybe Teeg if it's an EE/Humility build, and whatever else you end up boarding. Still, not a good match.

TES/ANT/Tendrils: Unfavorable.

This is arguably the worst matchup due to lack of disruption, but you can win turn 3 so you aren't entirely out of it. Post-board helps a little bit, but there isn't too much you can do here. Tendrils is really the only thing that would ideally sway a Survival player away from playing this.

Dreadstill: Favorable.

This plays out very similarly to Threshold, except your Vanqishers are running into Dreadnoughts instead. They can potentially win if they stick a turn 2-3 Dreadnought and are able to clear the way of Zealot or deathtouchers, but it's rare. It's difficult for them to handle all of your creatures pre-board, and if you're able to stick a Mirror Entity then chumping Dreadnoughts is surprisingly easy. Post-board it gets a bit tougher because of Firespout, but you still gain Choke and Krosan Grip to deal with Dreadnought and Counterbalance.

Goblins: Slightly Favorable.

This really depends if they run Perish in the sideboard or Goblin Sharpshooter. If they do, then post-board it'll be difficult to win if they have it and wipe your team. If they don't, then this match is fine. Sharpshooter is really rare now so I wouldn't expect it. You have a million creatures early to block Lackeys, and their mana denial isn't very effective with so much acceleration. SGC is still annoying though and can be a swing in their favor, but that was the case with the deck in any other matchup too. A single lord turns your team huge against them, and your creatures are a lot cheaper than theirs so you can easily win the arms race. It isn't a bye by any means, but when putting pure aggro-on-aggro here, you have more outlets to kill them. I haven't figured out the last slots in the sideboard yet, so these could potentially be Engineered Plagues, or Masticore + Goblin Pyromancer + something, I dunno.

Ichorid: Slightly Unfavorable

I don't have as much testing as I'd like against Ichorid, so I'm not entirely sure on it. Some of the games they just turn 1-2'd me, a few others we sat for a while and both sides had an attrition win, others I had a turn 3-4 win with the combo. It's highly dependant on the dieroll and the starts of both players. They can kill you quickly and rush out zombies, but you can throw a few men down early then swarm them. I haven't been exactly happy so far with it, so the sideboard will likely see hate against them, either Crypt or Plague (or both).

Aggro Loam: Even-Slightly Unfavorable

This match solely depends on if they see Devastating Dreams or not. If they do, you might lose. Your team gets wiped and you lose a few lands, and it's difficult to come back from that under most circumstances. Seismic Assault can be annoying if paired with Loam, but it can also be fought around if you're able to chain Messengers, but still really difficult. If not, then it's hard to lose. Aside from Terravore none of their creatures are remotely scary as you can either chump or toss a deathtoucher into them forever, and you still are fast enough to put pressure on them. I haven't figured out how I want to address this matchup yet. Caller of the Claw seems reasonable for shit like DD or Clasm, but it's a really weak slot otherwise. Or maybe Absolute Law, Bubble Matrix, or something else awful that stops sweepers.



Aside from the fact that a lot of the popular deck's aren't overwhelmingly favorable, the deck still has a lot of potential and arguably more viability than other Survival decks. It's a lot faster than the others and can work much better without Survival than them. Although traditional Survival has a better time with combo decks, it's much weaker against Counterbalance and tempo decks. I think it's at least looking into this because it gives the archtype a new twist.

/end rant.

Cool decklist. This looks like an aggro deck I'd actually enjoy playing thanks to the extra engines thrown in. Pity about the matchups - most of them are not impressive, and while Counterbalance Threshold is favourable we all know how 80% of the decks in the format are supposed to beat Counterbalance Threshold yet somehow the deck still steals wins.

One minor note: you can actually go off with just Priest + Symbiote + Entity if you have one mana untapped - you just activate the Entity as your first step of the loop, netting an extra G from Priest.

Sideboard idea: Winter Orbs should be well-supported in this deck and a fucking beating against control. Null Rod is also an interesting option, killing off Explosives, Top (and Counterbalance with it), and Vial/Jitte from Goblins. If you end up running the ESGs they don't suck too bad against combo either.

How's the Sligh matchup? That's one that definitely needs testing, especially because I don't know whether the best strategy for Goyf is to burn your men and try to punch through or just aim everything at your head and race. I guess the former strategy loses to Sylvan Messenger, but it also gets a lot better when they open on turn 1 Grim Lavamancer.

Very interesting list, I like the mirror entity kill a lot. I am currently running a priest/glimpse/staff elf deck, but I can see the advantages of survival/anger in elves.

The only card in the SB list you posted that I would consider is Fecundity, as it is a great option to recover from mass creature destruction, pyroclasm/WOG. I am not sure if it is a better option then Caller of the claw in your list as he is a survival target.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

Cool decklist. This looks like an aggro deck I'd actually enjoy playing thanks to the extra engines thrown in. Pity about the matchups - most of them are not impressive, and while Counterbalance Threshold is favourable we all know how 80% of the decks in the format are supposed to beat Counterbalance Threshold yet somehow the deck still steals wins.

One minor note: you can actually go off with just Priest + Symbiote + Entity if you have one mana untapped - you just activate the Entity as your first step of the loop, netting an extra G from Priest.

Sideboard idea: Winter Orbs should be well-supported in this deck and a fucking beating against control. Null Rod is also an interesting option, killing off Explosives, Top (and Counterbalance with it), and Vial/Jitte from Goblins. If you end up running the ESGs they don't suck too bad against combo either.

How's the Sligh matchup? That's one that definitely needs testing, especially because I don't know whether the best strategy for Goyf is to burn your men and try to punch through or just aim everything at your head and race. I guess the former strategy loses to Sylvan Messenger, but it also gets a lot better when they open on turn 1 Grim Lavamancer.

---

@ Matchups

The thing is matchups are always different irl than on paper. I mean, I've still lost matches to Threshold with this and have blown out Landstill. Paper is really just speaking out of theory, so I can't say that by looking at them it should be looked down upon. The deck has better matchups against the field as a whole than traditional Survival decks. It is stronger against Counterbalance, tempo, and aggro strategies. I think I may have exaggerated the killing of sweepers on it, because normal Survival gets hurt nearly as bad. It's just I have Engineered Plague to look out for now as well.

Admittedly, I've never played against Sligh before. I don't know how that'd go. Depends how they play against Elves.

@ Priest Combo

I actually should've clarified that. I'm aware you can go off with one floating. I guess I just didn't think to put it in because I have multiple elves in play 90% of the time.

@ Sideboard

Null Rod is mentioned in that list. I also tinkered with Winter Orb, but decided I like Choke more because it'd be brought in the same matchups, but keep them tapped down. It's also better against Threshold too, which operates on a low land count. Winter Orb would help more against Aggro Loam though, so I'll test it out more.

Awesome, I always love seeing a new one of your posts in here Di.

I've mostly moved away from Survival due to having The combo Fear, but I am definately going to sleeve this up and attune myself to piloting it. Who knows, next time around I might put on my Storm-dodging shoes and sling it.

On a rules note; the stack damage, bounce dude, resolve Deathtouch trick does not work, as the Deathtouch ability would go on the stack as the damage resolves, not as it's stacked, so the Elf is back in your hand instead of anywhere the game can find and read its ability.

I would most likely have some Relics in the side, taking 'geese and 'goyfs down to manageable size, straight up killing 'vores in the Aggro Loam match, and helping out the Ichorid matchup.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Di

Ok I figured it's time to bump this thread with what I've been working on over the past month or so. I wasn't going to bother posting it, but after BirdMan's recent top8 with it at Eli's Beta Dual Land tournament, I decided it's worth talking about. Since it's so drastically different I think it's best if I take a primer-esque approach to catch you guys up to speed.

---

Give the Germans some credits, yo.

We were slightly faster:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19952

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20228

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21397

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18892 (No Survival, tho)

I was actually not aware of those top8's. That just makes me feel even more confident on the deck. I'm not a huge fan of those lists, but it's good to know that there's been a lot more development here than I accounted for.

Quote:

---

On a rules note; the stack damage, bounce dude, resolve Deathtouch trick does not work, as the Deathtouch ability would go on the stack as the damage resolves, not as it's stacked, so the Elf is back in your hand instead of anywhere the game can find and read its ability.

I would most likely have some Relics in the side, taking 'geese and 'goyfs down to manageable size, straight up killing 'vores in the Aggro Loam match, and helping out the Ichorid matchup.

---

Aw that sucks. Oh well. If I'm going to use graveyard hate, it'd probably be Tormod's Crypt. I really prefer it be free given I want to be playing spells too.

Quote:

---

The only card in the SB list you posted that I would consider is Fecundity, as it is a great option to recover from mass creature destruction, pyroclasm/WOG. I am not sure if it is a better option then Caller of the claw in your list as he is a survival target.

---

That is a really interesting idea. It's definetely something looking into. Plus I have a playset of foil ones that can see some use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Di

I was actually not aware of those top8's. That just makes me feel even more confident on the deck. I'm not a huge fan of those lists, but it's good to know that there's been a lot more development here than I accounted for.

---

You even asked me via AIM whether I can show you their list. xD

Code:

---

Session Start (adantheone:melancauly): Wed Nov 12 22:55:38 2008
[22:58] melancauly: I just received wind that you guys have an Elf Survival list?
[22:58] adantheone: yessir
[22:58] melancauly: I've been working on it for about 2 weeks and am insanely impressed
[22:58] melancauly: And want to see yours for comparison

---

:-P

I meant I wasn't aware there were lists that top8'd. I knew about your list obviously, but wasn't aware people ran it in tournaments and actually placed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Di

I meant I wasn't aware there were lists that top8'd. I knew about your list obviously, but wasn't aware people ran it in tournaments and actually placed.

---

Ah. Ok. But proof that it's a strong pile, though "Elves" seem to be random.

I've been playing the elf survival list aswell for some time now. And Im unsure about the 3 symbiote. The fact they are non elves really bothers me since I want to be hitting alot with messenger. Tho I haven't tested out the mirror combo. Great find!

<Edit> I didn't want to cut squee myself either but after playing without it I barely even missed it. Just fetching your messengers most of the time give you something to pitch. I guess its more needed when fetching the combo parts.

I've been recommending Survival in Elves since appromixately forever, but people preferred to just keep on playing Crossroads. Shrug. I'm not sure if I ever came up with a list exactly like that one, on some level I guess I was just afraid of running Survival without Thoughtseize and Therapy to help resolve it.

What are your thoughts on: Aether Vial, Elvish Visionary, Rofellos, Eladamri (as a one of), Jitte, Timberwatch Elf (Immaculate Magistrate), Tribal Forcemage, Thornscape Battlemage, Gaea's Cradle, Wirewod Hivemaster. (I assume there's a reason you're not running them.)

Also, doesn't this belong better in one of the Elves threads? It doesn't have much in common with the usual Survival decks beyond Survival itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Illissius

Also, doesn't this belong better in one of the Elves threads? It doesn't have much in common with the usual Survival decks beyond Survival itself.

---

Well, who defines what is a usual Survival deck? Survival has so many faces...:
RG(b/w) Survival Advantage
BGW Rock Survival
Full English Breakfast
Madness Survival
Angry Tradewind Survival
Welder Survival
Not Quite Survival
RecSur
Elves Survival
...

The only common card is Squee.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Illissius

What are your thoughts on: Aether Vial, Elvish Visionary, Rofellos, Eladamri (as a one of), Jitte, Timberwatch Elf (Immaculate Magistrate), Tribal Forcemage, Thornscape Battlemage, Gaea's Cradle, Wirewod Hivemaster. (I assume there's a reason you're not running them.)

---

I think I can tackle a few of these.
AEther Vial: This builds seems to want to win asap, not wait around for Vial Counters.

Elvish Visionary, Jitte, Wirewod Hivemaster: You got these from the Extended Elves! decks, who's backup plan, when they're combo is disrupted, is to go 1/1 beatdown, the backup plan here is Survival and Sylvan Messenger abuse.

Rofellos: He gave reason for this one, not playing enough lands to make it worthwhile.

Eladamri (as a one of): This could be looked into if your meta is pinpoint removal heavy, I assume it wasn't included as it does nothing for sweepers and doesn't help you actually win.

Timberwatch Elf, Immaculate Magistrate, Tribal Forcemage, Thornscape Battlemage: Too slow/expensive, don't tap for mana.

Gaea's Cradle: Doesn't do anything broken until you've gotten to a point where it becomes "win more".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Swing4Five

Eladamri (as a one of): This could be looked into if your meta is pinpoint removal heavy, I assume it wasn't included as it does nothing for sweepers and doesn't help you actually win.

Gaea's Cradle: Doesn't do anything broken until you've gotten to a point where it becomes "win more".

---

Eladamri turns off Quirion Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote.

Gaea's Cradle, though powerful, leads to more inconsistency of opening hands.

I personally think this would be better off in the Elves thread. Di even said that the Survival engine is secondary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaynel

Eladamri turns off Quirion Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote.

---

Ah right, I had thought about the cost of Symbiote, forgot about the effect. :tongue:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Swing4Five

Elvish Visionary, Jitte, Wirewod Hivemaster: You got these from the Extended Elves! decks

---

Actually, no. I got them from the endless Elves lists I've been building up in my notes since, what, the past year?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaynel

Eladamri turns off Quirion Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote.

---

Obviously. That's the drawback. There's also a plus side. The question is whether the balance comes out positive enough. I guess Symbiote is protection enough that you don't also want Eladamri.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by quicksilver

This is a thread for general survival discussion. If you do want to have a detailed conversation about elf survival I do believe it would warrant it's own thread.

---

If that's the case, we might as well make an entirely different thread for any Survival deck running Burning Wish, because that affects the deck and sideboard so drastically that it is undeserving of being in this thread. Or Welder Survival, because they run Chrome Mox, Artifact Lands, and overcosted crap, and Intuition and Thirst for Knowledge. Yeah :)


Case in point, there is no "general" Survival. You have norms you can follow, but there are too many variants to put them in different threads. That's why I made this thread in the first place and helped design the system that we use because of things like this.

But I will concede it could also find a home in the Elves thread. But given the nature of the deck, a strong case could be made to put it in either thread, so I don't see a big issue in keeping it in one or the other.

Plus, this thread was freaking dead. I wanted to promote discussion. But given how much interest this has generated so far, I'll most likely make a thread for it on it's own, because it still does have contradictory issues with both this and the Elf Aggro thread.

Quote:

---

I've been playing the elf survival list aswell for some time now. And Im unsure about the 3 symbiote. The fact they are non elves really bothers me since I want to be hitting alot with messenger. Tho I haven't tested out the mirror combo. Great find!

---

I actually started with Symbiote as a singleton, but kept realizing I wanted to see it more and more. It was mostly because outside of Messenger piles, it was absolute gold. Having protection from removal, combat tricks, recurring Messengers, and the higher percentage of drawing combo pieces made me up it, going from two to then adding in the third like a week ago.

Quote:

---

What are your thoughts on: Aether Vial, Elvish Visionary, Rofellos, Eladamri (as a one of), Jitte, Timberwatch Elf (Immaculate Magistrate), Tribal Forcemage, Thornscape Battlemage, Gaea's Cradle, Wirewod Hivemaster. (I assume there's a reason you're not running them.)

---

Aether Vial - Aether Vial is fine in this deck, but I ended up running more mana elves instead. The curve is low enough in here that you can just run the mana elves and run at a similar speed with Vial, but it's also the fact that Vial isn't nearly as synergistic as the mana elves, given all the buffs from Priest, lords, Messenger, and Mirror Entity.

Elvish Visionary - I've never tested this card, but it'd seem to have some merit. It's a nice cantrip and paired with Symbiote can be pretty interesting. However, it's something I'd want in multiples and I don't have much space for it. It's worth a look though.

Rofellos - I mentioned Rofellos in my post about it. To quote myself:

Quote:

---

Rofellos: The deck doesn't run many lands, so it's hard to abuse him. Occasionally I'd like him if I don't have an opening accelerator, but the deck has enough acceleration anyway.

---

Issue is, Usually Priest of Titania is a better grab, and there's four of them. I've only wanted Rofellos when I resolved a Survival and then hit my third land drop without having a first turn mana elf. It's rare that I find I need him, because the deck runs a lot of acceleration.

Timberwatch/Immaculate Magistrate - I looked at them back from my old t2 lists that I ran, and they were insane. But right now I'm not sure how I feel about them because they can be slow and are weak on their own.

Eladamri - He was actually in my sideboard for a long time. I forgot to mention him in that list of cards. He's constantly weaving in and out of the deck, but I hate how he shuts off my own cards.

Jitte - I also forgot to mention this in list of sideboard cards. I haven't given much testing to it, but it's really solid.

Tribal Forcemage - My older Elves list ran this (and Gempalm too) but I cut them for permanent buffs in the 8 lords.

Gaea's Cradle - I had them in here but I was really bothered by opening them alone and not being able to fetch it. It's possible it could find a way back in though.

Thornscape Battlemage - I never knew this was an Elf. That is awesome. I'll be testing him out somewhere for sure.

Wirewood Hivemaster - This is currently being tested right now. It was mentioned to me by a teammate, and it has potential. I don't know where it'd fit, but it can do stupid things, and would be a really interesting way to circumvent Engineered Plague.

Hi,

I'm one of the german creators of this deck (together with Tobias Hesser, who is not registered here). I have some things to point out with your list:


1. You should run more lands. Similar to Goblins, you have a really high curve, and even if you have mana elves, you still want to drop a land for the first 3 turns (sometimes you can cheat a little with Quirion Ranger). And you should play at least 2 Gaea's Cradle, these give ao much speed. Imagine T1 Mana Elf, T2 Cradle, 2drop, 2drop. With a Cradle, this deck goes really crazy.

2. 8 Lord + 2 Entities is way to much. You have way to much cards in your 3 mana slot, and with only 17 lands, you have high chances to die with 1 land and a hand full of lords. In our meta, most players have realized that this deck strongly depends on the first mana elf, so they often burn it away to slow us down. Actually we play with only 6 lords + one Entity, which seems to be enough. If you have Survival online, you will discard each lord for more Priests and Messenger and kill with the Entity or with (Beware! Secret tech!) Chameleon Colossus (which is also missing in your list).

3. 3 Wirewood Symbiote is also too much in my opinion. One or two of them is usually enough. When you start to combo of, you won't need more, and they are no Elves, so they don't profit from the Messengers or the Lords. Tobias and I always try not to play more non-elves than necessary.

4. I doubt, Wood Elves are good. I understand why you play them, but with enough Fetchs, you will find your Taiga in almost each game. If you need a land searcher, you might try Yavimaya Dryad. Its not an elf, but it can pass the Forest to your opponent (tricky, isnt it?). Forestwalk FTW!

So our actual Decklist looks like this:

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest
4 Messenger
3 Champion
3 Perfect
4 Vanquisher (Thornwald Archer is fine, too)
3 Quirion Ranger (insane wish Priests)
2 Viridean Zealot

1 Entity
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Anger
1 Squee

4 Survival

3 Cradle (might be 2, still testing)
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
6 Fetchs
5 Forest (number of Fetchs and Basics may vary)

Some explanations: We play more basics because of Magus of the Moon in our SB. You dont want to draw only Fetchs with him online. This gives us a slightly lower chance of having a Taiga, but normaly you only need it Turn 4, so you have enough time to find one.

The two Viridean Zealots are still experimental, maybe one is sufficient, but a 2drop more is good for the curve. We've also tried Iff-Biff Efreet in this slot (ok, honestly, who knows this card?), so we make good use of our mana, but the Colossus works better for this (and is and Elf, too).

Only one Symbiote, because he isnt an Elf. Most times, the Rangers and Priests can generate enough mana to kill, and one symbiote is enough to go infinte with the Entity.


Last, but not least, some additions to your sideboard pool:

You might try Wilt-Leaf Liege and Wrens Run Packmaster, which are really good against damage based (mass-)removal such as Devastating Dreams, Plagues and things like that.

best regard
Stefan

P.S.: Since we are the firsts to go Top8 with this list, maybe we should chose a proper name for this deck.
My first idea was: Combo !!!111 Elf Elf Elf

(the german Elf not only means elf, but also eleven, so its a good name for us here, but I'm afraig it doesnt make much sense outside of Germany).

First of all thanks for posting. It's nice to have someone who's familiar with the deck.

Quote:

---

1. You should run more lands. Similar to Goblins, you have a really high curve, and even if you have mana elves, you still want to drop a land for the first 3 turns (sometimes you can cheat a little with Quirion Ranger). And you should play at least 2 Gaea's Cradle, these give ao much speed. Imagine T1 Mana Elf, T2 Cradle, 2drop, 2drop. With a Cradle, this deck goes really crazy.

---

My list is currently up to 18 lands, the list that was run was 17. I haven't had many problems with that configuration so far. With 32 mana sources in the deck (18 land + 8 mana elves + 4 Priest + 2 Ranger) it is very rare that I don't hit mana. It's true I don't hit land first three turns as consistent as a 20-land deck, but it hasn't been a problem to the point where I'd like more of them. I'll also give Cradle another shot, but I'll be pissed if I get stuck with the one-land Cradle hand. I suppose it'd be safer in an ESG list though.

Quote:

---

2. 8 Lord + 2 Entities is way to much. You have way to much cards in your 3 mana slot, and with only 17 lands, you have high chances to die with 1 land and a hand full of lords. In our meta, most players have realized that this deck strongly depends on the first mana elf, so they often burn it away to slow us down. Actually we play with only 6 lords + one Entity, which seems to be enough. If you have Survival online, you will discard each lord for more Priests and Messenger and kill with the Entity or with (Beware! Secret tech!) Chameleon Colossus (which is also missing in your list).

---

I don't know the metagame in Germany, but in the US any deck that has access to black runs Engineered Plague. I can guarantee to see it in a majority of the sideboards I play against. I had to design the deck with that in mind to fight it. Not to mention there is a high amount of Counterbalance here. Getting around that with the 3cc slot is huge.

Chamelon Colossus isn't "missing," I cut it. It was mentioned in my opening post. I cut Colossus in favor of Mirror Entity because it turns a measly team into beaters that just wins, instead of a single creature that gets chumped. If I was going to use another 4cc creature as a beater though, It'd most likely be Wren's Run Packmaster, which I'm still looking at. It gets around Engineered Plague very well and makes creatures that do too. It's definetely something I'm interested in, at least moreso than Colossus.

Quote:

---

3. 3 Wirewood Symbiote is also too much in my opinion. One or two of them is usually enough. When you start to combo of, you won't need more, and they are no Elves, so they don't profit from the Messengers or the Lords. Tobias and I always try not to play more non-elves than necessary.

---

Running at least two is almost mandatory if you wish to combo. There are a lot of situations where you tap out to cast both Entity and Symbiote, then use Symbiote to return an elf and untap Priest, generating enough mana to find and cast another one, then go infinate. I run 3 despite the non-elf because it is one of the strongest draws in the deck. It makes the deck much more explosive and consistent, and recurring Messengers is insane. Also, it's more important given I place a higher emphasis on the combo.

Quote:

---

I doubt, Wood Elves are good. I understand why you play them, but with enough Fetchs, you will find your Taiga in almost each game. If you need a land searcher, you might try Yavimaya Dryad. Its not an elf, but it can pass the Forest to your opponent (tricky, isnt it?). Forestwalk FTW!

---

I run Wood Elves because it will fetch the Savannah, not the Taiga. It is harder to have multiple fetchlands to have both haste and cast Entity by turn 3-4. Wood Elves will get at least one of them, because I'll most likely have hit one fetchland or a dual, and most likely would go for Taiga first.


I do like your build, but I think it would have a lot more trouble over here due to the splash hate you get from Goblins. But I can see dropping a lord for a beefier dude reasonable, as well as taking some other things from the list.

I've been testing out this deck since I saw it place in germany a month or two back. The only real new development I see is the inclusion of Mirror Entity. I also thought about taking this route, for the infinite mana trick, but after testing it just didn't seem as consistent.

Instead, I went with good ole Killer Bees. It's not infinite, but with a Priest of Titania and a Survival you can chain into twenty + mana by turn four pretty consistently. Then cast a flying hasted 20/20 for lethal. (It also takes care of Tombstalker just fine). Using Bees instead of Mirror Entity provides the advantage of not having to splash for a tertiary color, and takes up less room. I can't definitively state it's the better choice, but I think it's a comparable choice.

I do like the list more than any Elf or Survival list. Hope to see more development on it in the future.

Quote:

---

Instead, I went with good ole Killer Bees. It's not infinite, but with a Priest of Titania and a Survival you can chain into twenty + mana by turn four pretty consistently. Then cast a flying hasted 20/20 for lethal. (It also takes care of Tombstalker just fine). Using Bees instead of Mirror Entity provides the advantage of not having to splash for a tertiary color, and takes up less room. I can't definitively state it's the better choice, but I think it's a comparable choice.

---

For me personally Entity was fine because I already had white in my sideboard for anti-combo cards. Also, it isn't like you need to always use the infinate mana trick, although it's far more consistent than it's given credit for. But Mirror Entity is incredible because you can just play him and swing with a lot of big creatures instead of a single one (hence why I like him over Colossus). I've won countless games on the back of Mirror Entity alone just casting him, tapping a Priest of Titania, then swinging with a huge team. It's also great because making lots of creatures bigger at once gives you better chance at taking down Tarmogoyfs and Dreadnoughts. Yesterday I took out a Dreadnought with two elf tokens from Imperious Perfect because I had Entity with 4 lands and 2 mana elves untapped. It was sweet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galroth

I've been testing out this deck since I saw it place in germany a month or two back. The only real new development I see is the inclusion of Mirror Entity. I also thought about taking this route, for the infinite mana trick, but after testing it just didn't seem as consistent.

Instead, I went with good ole Killer Bees. It's not infinite, but with a Priest of Titania and a Survival you can chain into twenty + mana by turn four pretty consistently. Then cast a flying hasted 20/20 for lethal. (It also takes care of Tombstalker just fine). Using Bees instead of Mirror Entity provides the advantage of not having to splash for a tertiary color, and takes up less room. I can't definitively state it's the better choice, but I think it's a comparable choice.

I do like the list more than any Elf or Survival list. Hope to see more development on it in the future.

---

Killer Bees are not really good :). Try Chameleon Colossus instead, with 12 mana, he beats for 32 damage, which should be enough^^. And he's an elf, too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MindTwiZt

2. 8 Lord + 2 Entities is way to much.

---

These are great since counterbalance is everywhere and 3cc is rarely hit off flips.

One of the few constants in nearly all my Elves lists was 4 Symbiote. It's just so ridiculous -- protects your dudes, boosts your mana, does combat tricks, recurs Messengers (and Battlemages). Why would you play any less?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Illissius

One of the few constants in nearly all my Elves lists was 4 Symbiote. It's just so ridiculous -- protects your dudes, boosts your mana, does combat tricks, recurs Messengers (and Battlemages). Why would you play any less?

---

Which battlemagi are you running?

Thornscape

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Illissius

One of the few constants in nearly all my Elves lists was 4 Symbiote. It's just so ridiculous -- protects your dudes, boosts your mana, does combat tricks, recurs Messengers (and Battlemages). Why would you play any less?

---

In a list with Survival, you don't need the full complement as it's so easy to find. But it's funny you mention that because I started at 1 and worked my way up to 3 when I found I wanted it more and more. It'll probably stay at 3-4 though.

Also, it turns out I like Wren's Run Packmaster. It's phenomenal Engineered Plague hate. Colossus is decent too, but Packmaster is a beating against like every deck.

Hey, I don't have a lot of experience with survival elves. Normal elves however... I've been playing non-stop since september.

First off, I know this is basphemy for a lot of Elf players but how much does Wren's Run Vanquisher -really- offer you? I will immediatly admit that it's a great card against aggro, but it's a bit of an egocentric card, it doesn't offer much synergy with your allied elves.

4 Llanowar + 4 Fyndhorn Elves is likely far too much, I guess survival wil eat up some of your mana as well, and with survival you'll have less trouble with dead cards, but having an opening hand with just 1/1 mana producers isn't something elves can afford.

Eladamri is an amazing card, not only shroud -really- but forestwalk is makes your elves unblockable in 70% of the MU's in the current meta. Sure your tricks with Mirror Entity won't work, but you can always return Eladamri to hand the turn before you're going to do it. Not a small thing, you can draw it off Sylvan Messenger, that really does make the difference. I wouldn't advocate running more then 2 though.

Elvish Visionary I rate extremely high, and not because I saw it in extended, as soon as Alara came out I knew it was the perfect card for elves. It's practically a mini Sylvan Messenger, the great thing though, it's cheap you can cast it early and it's a great target for Wirewood Symbiote to return to hand early on. Test them out and you'll see what I mean, it just gives this deck an extra punch.

Rofellos is a great 1-off. Yes, Priest of Titania is better, but even though Rofellos doesn't offer quite as much mana, if it nets 3 mana it's still an amazing mana producer, getting 3 shouldn't be a problem.

I diversified my mana producers by adding 2 Heritage Druids, they give you instant mana from creatures that shouldn't even be able to produce mana at all. Every creature becomes a potential llanowar elf. Works great when you landed a messenger, you can play your entire hand even without a Priest of Titania.

Good luck with the list, it looks promising. Not that much a fan of Survival as I feel like it makes an aggro deck slower, at the same time when it goes to the long game a card like survival gives you great advantage.

~

Eledamri shuts down your symbiotes and and your rangers. He's really not that great.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nessaja

Hey, I don't have a lot of experience with survival elves. Normal elves however... I've been playing non-stop since september.

First off, I know this is basphemy for a lot of Elf players but how much does Wren's Run Vanquisher -really- offer you? I will immediatly admit that it's a great card against aggro, but it's a bit of an egocentric card, it doesn't offer much synergy with your allied elves.

4 Llanowar + 4 Fyndhorn Elves is likely far too much, I guess survival wil eat up some of your mana as well, and with survival you'll have less trouble with dead cards, but having an opening hand with just 1/1 mana producers isn't something elves can afford.

Eladamri is an amazing card, not only shroud -really- but forestwalk is makes your elves unblockable in 70% of the MU's in the current meta. Sure your tricks with Mirror Entity won't work, but you can always return Eladamri to hand the turn before you're going to do it. Not a small thing, you can draw it off Sylvan Messenger, that really does make the difference. I wouldn't advocate running more then 2 though.

Elvish Visionary I rate extremely high, and not because I saw it in extended, as soon as Alara came out I knew it was the perfect card for elves. It's practically a mini Sylvan Messenger, the great thing though, it's cheap you can cast it early and it's a great target for Wirewood Symbiote to return to hand early on. Test them out and you'll see what I mean, it just gives this deck an extra punch.

Rofellos is a great 1-off. Yes, Priest of Titania is better, but even though Rofellos doesn't offer quite as much mana, if it nets 3 mana it's still an amazing mana producer, getting 3 shouldn't be a problem.

I diversified my mana producers by adding 2 Heritage Druids, they give you instant mana from creatures that shouldn't even be able to produce mana at all. Every creature becomes a potential llanowar elf. Works great when you landed a messenger, you can play your entire hand even without a Priest of Titania.

Good luck with the list, it looks promising. Not that much a fan of Survival as I feel like it makes an aggro deck slower, at the same time when it goes to the long game a card like survival gives you great advantage.

~

---

You are wrong on so many points.

First of all 8 Llanowar Elves is the perfect number. No more, no less. Because on average you want 1 in your opening hand. That is the only way to combo off on turn 3 with a Survival. Any less than 8 Llanowar Elves and you will have to combo out much later and slower.

Rofellos is not required. 0 is the correct amount. The deck already has far too many weak draws, you don't want to add more weak mana producers when you don't need it. It doesn't help the deck. You should instead be replacing it with a "threat card", not another "support card"

Elvish Visionary is terrible, way too slow for this deck, or for legacy for that matter.

Eladamri is absolute junk ever since it wasn't an elf anymore. It doesn't protect anything. If they were to use a removal spell they would just use it on your eladamri. It doesn't save anything. It's still losing 1-for-1 whether it's losing your eladamri or another elf. Either way you will be losing a card to the removal spell with or without him. It's just a 2/2 body basically that can't trade itself "1-for-1" easily. It doesn't neutralize any other card therefore it is weak. The only thing is it gives forestwalk, but IT DOES NOTHING ON ITS OWN!! it requires you to have superior board position to have any decent effect. Whenever a card is weak on its own, it is usually junk. Elvish Champion is far superior for Forestwalk in any case.



But the main thing is 8 Llanowar Elves is absolutely critical in this deck. This is not a normal Survival Deck, this is a 3rd turn Survival combo deck and you need to play a Llanowar first turn for that to happen more consistantly.


I've been tweaking this deck since 2005. I've tested hundreds of games with it. This is just from my own experience.


And to the topic starter, GRW is far less consistant than GR version with Timberwatch Elf. You don't need Mirror infinte combo. You just play it a bit differently with Priest/Messenger until you get a bunch of Timberwatches and/or quirions for trampling Messengers ftw. 40+ trample damage on average. Still 3rd turn win and still just as consistant. is a far stronger consistant plus Timberwatch is vastly underrated it is a bomb with Quirion especially, and doesn't suck up your mana like the mirror, and doesn't require white splash. I'm too lazy to explain, but I think you should test it. It's far more smooth in my opinion. Also worthy of testing is Masked Admirers, it's less consistant but can win 3rd turn also with correct searching technique.

You people are ofcourse entitled to your opinion.

First of, on Eladamri, he doesn't do anything else then Wirewood Symbiote does in terms of protection, meaning he takes away 1 removal spell before they can start killing your significant creatures. Then take in account that he offers 3 things that Wirewood Symbiote does not:

1. He gives your creatures forestwalk.
2. He's fetchable with Sylvan Messenger.
3. He's an elf so gets bonuses from lords.
4. He adds mana to Priest of Titania.
5. With lords in play, he actually isn't easily killable by burn spells, turned out to be a big plus against Goblins and GoyfSligh.

Setting up protection for the rest of your elves is totally worth the cost of not being able to untap your elves against most decks. However, if you do want to combo off, return him to hand EOT opponents turn and have fun. I doubt you would play this card if you were going for the combo win though.

As for Rofellos, the right amount of mana producers for my deck is 12. As I determined 8 Llanowar/Fyndhorn as not ideal - and tested it with 8 for a long time, always the same conclusion - I decided that I really don't need that many 1/1 vanilla mana producers. Rofellos might be a strictly inferior version of Priest of Titania, he's still the second best mana producing elf in Legacy, I'd pick him over the 8th Llanowar Elves any day.

As for Elvish Visionary, since when is any form of card advantage not fit for legacy? When mana is in excess, which should happen with 3 cradles, 4 Priest of Titania and in my case Heritage Druid the only limiting factor is cards available. An Elf that gets all the benefits from the lords and cantrips as well is exactly what a deck that has mana in excess needs.

Our differences in views most likely has more to do with that I feel like the combo in this deck is far too fragile in the format and that more often then not you will need to take the aggro route instead. As I said, I play my own version of Aggro elves, from my expience, opposing decks aren't going to give you anything. Any significant creature will be destroyed asap, especially a Priest of Titania or Wirewood Symbiote are going to receive a counter or a removal spell and if they don't you're probably playing against combo and will probably lose the next turn. So really, the only way to win as far as I'm concerned is either by protecting your significant creatures or by getting card advantage over them.

In addition; I think if you want to play combo, you're likely better off with a true combo deck instead. And while having the combo around doesnt hurt much as it requires a small card investment, designing the rest of your deck around it seems to me like a bad idea in the legacy format.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nessaja

You people are ofcourse entitled to your opinion.

First of, on Eladamri, he doesn't do anything else then Wirewood Symbiote does in terms of protection, meaning he takes away 1 removal spell before they can start killing your significant creatures.

---

See, that was basically my point. You may as well just replace Eladamri WITH a significant creature to begin with. Then instead of protecting a significant creature you would instead have 2 significant creatures instead. Eladamri was only good when it was errertad to an elf. Because then it would make many cards in the opponents deck useless, therefore virtual card advantage. However it is no longer an elf, and does little on its own because itself is an outlet for the opponents removal cards. Therefore it is weak. It is in fact a card disadvantage because a) it can't trade itself for another card easily being a 2/2; fails to neutralize at least 1 oppent's card b) Doesn't threaten to win on it's own; relies on other cards to be usefull. It is very close to being a card disadvantage just by playing it.

Quote:

---

Then take in account that he offers 3 things that Wirewood Symbiote does not:

1. He gives your creatures forestwalk.
2. He's fetchable with Sylvan Messenger.
3. He's an elf so gets bonuses from lords.
4. He adds mana to Priest of Titania.
5. With lords in play, he actually isn't easily killable by burn spells, turned out to be a big plus against Goblins and GoyfSligh.

---

With lords in play, if they can't burn Eladamri, then it would be hard to kill any other card you could have played rather than Eladamri to begin with. That's a moot point. Wren's Run Vanquisher is superior to Eladamri, just to provide an example of something better than him. It easily neutralizes a card on its own, and is bigger.

Quote:

---

Setting up protection for the rest of your elves is totally worth the cost of not being able to untap your elves against most decks. However, if you do want to combo off, return him to hand EOT opponents turn and have fun. I doubt you would play this card if you were going for the combo win though.

As for Rofellos, the right amount of mana producers for my deck is 12. As I determined 8 Llanowar/Fyndhorn as not ideal - and tested it with 8 for a long time, always the same conclusion - I decided that I really don't need that many 1/1 vanilla mana producers. Rofellos might be a strictly inferior version of Priest of Titania, he's still the second best mana producing elf in Legacy, I'd pick him over the 8th Llanowar Elves any day.

As for Elvish Visionary, since when is any form of card advantage not fit for legacy? When mana is in excess, which should happen with 3 cradles, 4 Priest of Titania and in my case Heritage Druid the only limiting factor is cards available. An Elf that gets all the benefits from the lords and cantrips as well is exactly what a deck that has mana in excess needs.

Our differences in views most likely has more to do with that I feel like the combo in this deck is far too fragile in the format and that more often then not you will need to take the aggro route instead. As I said, I play my own version of Aggro elves, from my expience, opposing decks aren't going to give you anything. Any significant creature will be destroyed asap, especially a Priest of Titania or Wirewood Symbiote are going to receive a counter or a removal spell and if they don't you're probably playing against combo and will probably lose the next turn. So really, the only way to win as far as I'm concerned is either by protecting your significant creatures or by getting card advantage over them.

In addition; I think if you want to play combo, you're likely better off with a true combo deck instead. And while having the combo around doesnt hurt much as it requires a small card investment, designing the rest of your deck around it seems to me like a bad idea in the legacy format.

---

Rofellos is weak... it doesn't even fit into the gameplan of the deck. You want to play a mana producer on turn 1. You need 8 Llanowar Elves Mathematically to achieve that on average. Any less than that and the consistancy of that gameplan drops significantly. The correct amount of mana producers is not 12. The correct amount is always as minimal as necessary according to the gameplan. there's already a huge imbalance of "support cards" (ie lands, mana producers) and "theat cards" (cards that win) in this deck. The average sucessful legacy deck has around 20 or less "support cards" most of which are lands. This type of elf deck can easy have more than 30. a "threat card" is a card that can either "trade 1 for 1" or threaten to win on its own. Rofellos is a support card. Adding more UNNECESSARY mana production like rofellos is only going to weaken the deck. It's a good card, BUT NOT NECESSARY. Whenever you can cut a support card for a threat card it should be done. therefore Rofellos should be cut. the only reason llanowar Elves is in this deck is because the gameplan is to drop a mana-producer on turn 1 so that you can hope for 3 mana on turn 2. If the gameplan didn't need llanowar Elves it would be cut for a threat card too, but it does. Nothing in the deck should be revolving around Survival anyhow, it should fit in just because it happens to work. Playing 8 llanowar Elves has little to do with supporting the survival combo, it just so happens that it does. The deck needs first turn acceleration and thats the main reason there is 8.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nessaja

You people are ofcourse entitled to your opinion.

First of, on Eladamri, he doesn't do anything else then Wirewood Symbiote does in terms of protection, meaning he takes away 1 removal spell before they can start killing your significant creatures. Then take in account that he offers 3 things that Wirewood Symbiote does not:

1. He gives your creatures forestwalk.
2. He's fetchable with Sylvan Messenger.
3. He's an elf so gets bonuses from lords.
4. He adds mana to Priest of Titania.
5. With lords in play, he actually isn't easily killable by burn spells, turned out to be a big plus against Goblins and GoyfSligh.

Setting up protection for the rest of your elves is totally worth the cost of not being able to untap your elves against most decks. However, if you do want to combo off, return him to hand EOT opponents turn and have fun. I doubt you would play this card if you were going for the combo win though.

---

You can't compare those two cards since they fill two different roles. Not only does symbiote act as protection for your elves. It also acts as a means to produce fact amounts of mana (which has been stated all throughout this thread) You don't need a useless card like elvish visionary when you can bounce Sylvan Messenger multiple times in a turn. Symbiote just has better card quality than Eledamri.

Quote:

---

Also, it turns out I like Wren's Run Packmaster. It's phenomenal Engineered Plague hate. Colossus is decent too, but Packmaster is a beating against like every deck.

---

So he deserves a MD Slot?
But what to cut?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xenos

See, that was basically my point. You may as well just replace Eladamri WITH a significant creature to begin with. Then instead of protecting a significant creature you would instead have 2 significant creatures instead.

---

Don't fool yourself now, the deck posted in the opening post only has 16 elves that are worthwhile of killing. And there isn't any elf you can put in there that would be worthwhile of killing just as much when compared to Priest of Titania or the Lords/Mirror. You're talking as if you got a deck full of significant creatures but that's hardly the case.

Quote:

---

a) it can't trade itself for another card easily being a 2/2; fails to neutralize at least 1 oppent's card b) Doesn't threaten to win on it's own; relies on other cards to be usefull. It is very close to being a card disadvantage just by playing it.

---

The same can be said about wirewood symbiote really. That really isn't a viable argument to not play him.

Quote:

---

With lords in play, if they can't burn Eladamri, then it would be hard to kill any other card you could have played rather than Eladamri to begin with.

---

It's the difference between needing 2 or 3 lords in play. Considering that 2 lords is what you would draw on average that seems rather significant to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by edgewalker

You can't compare those two cards since they fill two different roles. Not only does symbiote act as protection for your elves. It also acts as a means to produce fact amounts of mana (which has been stated all throughout this thread) You don't need a useless card like elvish visionary when you can bounce Sylvan Messenger multiple times in a turn. Symbiote just has better card quality than Eledamri.

---

You're not telling me anything new. The ability of mana production from Wirewood Symbiote is most definitly win more though. If you can afford to use his ability to untap one of your own creatures - and the only worthwhile creature in your deck to do that with is Priest of Titania. Then you probably already won in practice. In a real game however the Symbiote either instantly gets killed or your opponent reacts on the symbiotes ability by killing a significant creature.

Hear what you're talking about, bouncing Sylvan Messenger multiple times a turn, you do realize that if you can bounce a messenger once you've already practically won? Bouncing a visionary is a trick yo use when you're actually play against a competent deck that is making your life hard, it can put you from card disadvantage to card advantage when you're having dead draws. Exactly like Eladamri, they shine in the hard matchups instead of being win-more on the easy ones.

Quote:

---

Rofellos is weak... it doesn't even fit into the gameplan of the deck. You want to play a mana producer on turn 1. You need 8 Llanowar Elves Mathematically to achieve that on average. Any less than that and the consistancy of that gameplan drops significantly. The correct amount of mana producers is not 12. The correct amount is always as minimal as necessary according to the gameplan.

---

Ironically, without me ever seeing this topic I came to the conclusion that any more then 12 mana producers would flood my hand with them. As seen in the opening post, the same choice is made. 12 just happends to be the minimum in a 60 card elf deck with a typical curve. So as far as I'm concerned, the right amount is 12. That said, how you fill that amount in should be the second thing to tackle. If it's really the case that a turn 2 survival is absolutely essential for this deck then I'll talk no more as my experience with survival in specific is limited. However, when you're talking about the aggro side of your deck Rofellos is so much better then that last llanowar elf.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nessaja

Don't fool yourself now, the deck posted in the opening post only has 16 elves that are worthwhile of killing. And there isn't any elf you can put in there that would be worthwhile of killing just as much when compared to Priest of Titania or the Lords/Mirror. You're talking as if you got a deck full of significant creatures but that's hardly the case.


The same can be said about wirewood symbiote really. That really isn't a viable argument to not play him.

---

false. Symbiote can neutralize a card easily. For example chump blocking a Goyf and bouncing back the elf. that's 1 for 1 given that you have an elf in play. Eladamri only protects against removal spells, it can't neutralize a card the same way Symbiote does via blocking. He's useless because it doesn't neutralize anything being a target itself to removal spells and doesn't block well neither. He's as good as a dead card unless you already have the board advantage and the opponent has a forest. Go ahead and use Eladamri, it's but it's obviously weak in many ways.

And as for Eladamri being a significant creature, it is not. There is nothing that important to protect in an Elf deck anyhow. Mirror? Priest? Lords? These are not gamebreakers the deck relies on synergies not single cards. Protecting these cards from removal spells is not necessary. Let them exchange 1-for-1 it's an even exchange. The only time a card is worth protecting is when it has a in-play value of more than 1, such as a card that can win on it's own or a card that generates big threats. Those cards have in play value of more than 1 card.. There is no 1 card winner in here that is that crucial to protect. There are tons of better options than Eladamri it's not like Elves are lacking a card pool. The card has no threat power, no defense power, and no support power. It's card value is less than 1. It is in fact a "win more" that only works when you already have the advantage.

Quote:

---

It's the difference between needing 2 or 3 lords in play. Considering that 2 lords is what you would draw on average that seems rather significant to me.



You're not telling me anything new. The ability of mana production from Wirewood Symbiote is most definitly win more though. If you can afford to use his ability to untap one of your own creatures - and the only worthwhile creature in your deck to do that with is Priest of Titania. Then you probably already won in practice. In a real game however the Symbiote either instantly gets killed or your opponent reacts on the symbiotes ability by killing a significant creature.

Hear what you're talking about, bouncing Sylvan Messenger multiple times a turn, you do realize that if you can bounce a messenger once you've already practically won? Bouncing a visionary is a trick yo use when you're actually play against a competent deck that is making your life hard, it can put you from card disadvantage to card advantage when you're having dead draws. Exactly like Eladamri, they shine in the hard matchups instead of being win-more on the easy ones.


Ironically, without me ever seeing this topic I came to the conclusion that any more then 12 mana producers would flood my hand with them. As seen in the opening post, the same choice is made. 12 just happends to be the minimum in a 60 card elf deck with a typical curve. So as far as I'm concerned, the right amount is 12. That said, how you fill that amount in should be the second thing to tackle. If it's really the case that a turn 2 survival is absolutely essential for this deck then I'll talk no more as my experience with survival in specific is limited. However, when you're talking about the aggro side of your deck Rofellos is so much better then that last llanowar elf.

---

I'll end it here as I'd only be repeating myself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaD

So he deserves a MD Slot?
But what to cut?

---

Can start off by cutting those useless Squee and Wood Elves in my opinion.


Or any card that is only there because you happen to have Survivals. No deck should ever be built to revolve around 4 cards. It should be the opposite, the 4 Survivals should revolve around the deck, and just "happen" to fit in. That's maximal efficiency.

Of course Squee isn't that good by himself (well, at least he chumps...) but with Survival he just go nuts. I guess its a question of cardquality.
Like Di said i would regard it as a necessity since survival wins by its own.
AND: Cuttin a squee for a lonely packmaster is quite odd since u'll rely on survival to get him for sure...

Furthermore i don't like the idea to cut cards that stabilize my manabase like the wood dudes do.
But since it is the weakest card in the deck i 'll try it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaD

Of course Squee isn't that good by himself (well, at least he chumps...) but with Survival he just go nuts. I guess its a question of cardquality.
Like Di said i would regard it as a necessity since survival wins by its own.
AND: Cuttin a squee for a lonely packmaster is quite odd since u'll rely on survival to get him for sure...

Furthermore i don't like the idea to cut cards that stabilize my manabase like the wood dudes do.
But since it is the weakest card in the deck i 'll try it.

---

I use to run squee in the early stages of my build, but the thing is I realised is that he is not required for several good reasons.


a) If you have cards you shouldn't be fetching a Squee to begin with because with the right build and searching techniques you should be winning on that turn instead.

b) If you need cards you should just fetch a Messenger.

c) not an elf, and even if it was, I'd still not play it.



I never once needed a squee in my build, I found it to be largely redundant and unnecessary. When I had cards I would be going for the combo, not waiting for squee engine next turn. When I needed cards, Messenger was always much stronger than a Squee.

Squee is playable, it's decent card, but not required, that's all.