[Deck] Death Cloud Rock/Loam Control

Over the past couple weeks I have been working on the following deck list:

3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
3 Barren Moor
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's SH
5 Swamp
4 Forest

4 Finks (awesome w/ Smallpox/Cloud/chump blocking)
4 STE (mana fixing and buys time against Goyf)
3 Terravore (Wins games quickly, but may be unnecessary)
2 E Witness

4 LFTL
3 Death Cloud (They generally lose more creatures than you do and it wrecks their hand)
3 Raven's Crime (Empties hands early)
1 Worm's Harvest (Win Condition)
4 Diabolic Edict (May switch some for Smallpox)
2 Smallpox (See Death Cloud)
4 Pernicious Deed

S.B.
2 Crypt
3 Choke
3 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip

The Deck Has Beaten:
Elf Stompy
4c Threshold
Tombstone
Team America (But lost once)
UBg Good Stuff

The deck has problems with:
TES

I have played three matches against TES and I have only won one game. Even if I can empty their hand early they can still win with Ill-Gotten Gains off the top, so I neet to be lucky with this one. Any tips on Improving this MU would Be great.

I would Also Appreciate any advise or comments on the list.

Advice eh? Ok, stop trying to be like a LftL deck. Either join em or beat em, but don't randomly play their cards. Check out some legacy The Rock.dec lists on deckcheck.net if you need any ideas. I am wondering why you run smallpox alongside deathcloud. If one needs the mana to blow up in the opponents face with a huge deathcloud why do you play smallpox. Replace those with Sinkholes.

I love Loam. It sift through your deck with cycling lands, and help you recover from Death Cloud faster than your opponent. It also makes Raven's Crime even more awesome.

As for Sinkhole, it seems like a better idea than Smallpox.

Ok, keep loam if you like. Just at least play tarmogoyf! Too much green, too little goyf.

With the Loam engine, and the fact that this deck isn't aggro control, I'd highly suggest running Tombstalker instead of running Goyf, if you are going to go for either. Chances are you'll be filling your yard rather quick, and two flying 5/5's beats ground stalemates any day.

I would also keep the Smallpox, as Sinkhole is too narrow. You are already going to make the card heavily one sided, being able to recur creatures killed or discarded, and you have plenty of land destruction already.

I'd probably suggest:

-1 Deed
-1 Terravore
-4 Finks

+3 Tombstalker
+1 Smallpox
+1 Witness

Finks is nice, but having more disruption from Smallpox and the ability to recur it via Stronghold + 4 Witness is awesome.

Tombstalker can probably easily seal the deal on it's own in the late game, and work fine in conjunction with Terravore, that's 5 stable win conditions with an active Loam engine, and they are still good without.

As he only has 12 sources of black mana in the MD, I can imagine a 1G unconditional spell to be cast more than a conditional BB spell. That is why I suggested Goyf. Sinkhole grants a tempo advantage that smallpox does not. This deck simply will run too many huge threats for Smallpox to work efficiently and will often end in suboptimal situations. Tombstalker DOES NOT work fine with Terravore! 6 cards out of the GY will probably mean at least 2 lands and with a goyf those would still be in there.

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Originally Posted by bowvamp

As he only has 12 sources of black mana in the MD, I can imagine a 1G unconditional spell to be cast more than a conditional BB spell. That is why I suggested Goyf.

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His threats are meant to be dropped at the end game, the other creatures are purely utility. Goyf fits into neither of these strategies, and frankly does nothing to his assault plan.

Also, saying there's only 12 black sources is an understatement, as there's fetchlands, STE, Witness, and Loam to balance the color requirements. I fail to see needing access to BB early and late game being an issue.

As for Smallpox, it is almost never situational in a build like this. Even if it misses one of it's hits (which will be either a discard or a creature removal), it's still doing it's job: filling the yard and preventing the opponent from gaining ground.

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Sinkhole grants a tempo advantage that smallpox does not.

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Whereas Sinkhole is nothing more than an LD spell, and Smallpox functions as removal, discard, and LD. Already having recurring Wastelands as well as Death Cloud is more than enough LD to cover gaining ground.

Add in that it's got Loam, as well as STE, it's got plenty of potential for tempo already, as well. The opponent isn't always dropping a land a turn, while Loam can say just the opposite here.

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This deck simply will run too many huge threats for Smallpox to work efficiently and will often end in suboptimal situations.

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I don't consider 5 threats with an average cc of 3 to be "heavy". Since there's also alternate win cons, one could even cut the numbers back to 4. Either way, they are going to be far more useful in the end game based on Smallpox being early removal and discard, not the other way around.

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Tombstalker DOES NOT work fine with Terravore! 6 cards out of the GY will probably mean at least 2 lands and with a goyf those would still be in there.

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This is assuming far too much of the game state.

First, Tombstalker does not have to be cast at BB, and since this deck has very few instant speed effects, it can afford to tap out to land a threat. I could easily seeing playing Stalker @ 4 or 5 mana and still being fine with it.

Second, Terravore counts all graveyards, and seeing as all of the land destruction is symmetrical, it's most definitely not going to care much about a possible -2/-2 if it's still swinging for 10+ with trample.

Another smaller benefit of Tombstalker over Goyf is it's resilience to Counterbalance as well as removal pinned at cheap CC creatures. It's very hard to flip an 8cc spell with CB, and it's not necessarily easy to set off Deed or Keg for 8 either.

@ Tombstalker
This deck has so many ways to use the graveyard; Loam, Volrath's SH, E Witness, that I would not want to remove cards for Tombstalker. Also, Terravore has trample, so it can break through on the ground.

@ Goyf
I can see no reason to replace Terravore with Goyf. I have never cast a Terravore that would be smaller than a Goyf, and the one less mana in the casting cost irrelevant because I never cast Terravore early in the game.

@ Finks
Finks help to break the symmetry of Death Cloud and Smallpox. Also finks help me get into the mid/late game, which is what a control deck wants to do. In a pinch Finks can also finish the game.

@Tombstalker
If you "use" the graveyard already, why deplete it? All of the cards that you have mentioned want a healthy gy, so give it to them.

@Goyf
Goyf should not be seen as replacing terravore, it's replacing finks as an alternative to Tombstalker.

@Finks
They would be better if you had a more controlling strategy with Therapies and the like. Right now they just help when you cast your game winning spell. This is what I call "the danger of cool things". Your Clouds have tons of tiny interactions going on. So many that cutting the worst of all of them is acceptable. Playing the Rock is different than Loam Deathcloud Control. Also, what makes this deck better than say, 43lands.dec, Control Loam, or Eternal Garden?

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Originally Posted by bowvamp

Also, what makes this deck better than say, 43lands.dec, Control Loam, or Eternal Garden?

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People seem to love non-basic land hate these days and Eternal Garden and 43land.dec must wish for an answer if they can. Or they can just die to Price of Progress.

Control Loam Depends a lot more on Loam and the graveyard than this deck. I have won games with my loams Extirpated on turn 2 This deck doesn't need loam to win. It can just go board control like the Rock.

I think the deck needs at least 6 cycle lands because they are your main draw engine and you want to recur 2/Loam asap. I also think the deck should play Thoughtseize because otherwise it is too dependant on dredging into Raven's Crime.

You could cut Witnesses. Witness does not do much that the deck can't already do: it can recur Draw, Wastelands Discard and win conditions without Witness and Witness is really slow.

Hey, if it works in extended it's worth a try! I was wondering why Death Cloud is better than Pox. Less life loss for you?

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Originally Posted by Shabbaman

Hey, if it works in extended it's worth a try! I was wondering why Death Cloud is better than Pox. Less life loss for you?

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There is less life loss, but Death Cloud is also more controlable than Pox. Cloud can get rid of all of my opponents creatures. However this is just my reasoning. I haven't tested Pox.

Edit
@ Tao
Witness has not done much for me and Thoughtseize is almost the removal that witness would get back anyways, so I will try switching them this weekend.

Don't run Pox. Pox is not a control card, it's an aggro card. Here's the key distinction between the decks:

-You have no acceleration to make an early game threat
-No non-creature creatures to activate
-Not playing the discard suite to back it

In other words, you have nothing to gain from it's casting. Smallpox works fine for a quick, short-term balance, that's all it's there for. Pox is there to one side your opponent, and push through damage with fast or artificial creatures. That's why it's so heavy on both land destruction and discard spells, it NEEDS to win asap, and does so by fast denial.

If you plan on cutting Witness, find a way to put in Tombstalker, seriously:

-With the exception of Loam, now all your instant and sorceries (and enchantments, I suppose) won't come back (and you are now adding more with Thoughtseize...bringing the total up to 16, not counting that you can afford to ditch "spare" Loams if you have them as well)
-You can afford to pitch STE/Finks in the late game to power out a better win condition (this brings the "stable" total of pitchable cards to 24, damn near half the deck)
-You'll have more than enough lands in both players yards to make up a slim loss to Vore (think 2-3 lands at most, if at all), and now have a flying 5/5 to make up for it
-Stalker doesn't need to drop @ BB, you can afford to pay more, you are a non-reactive control deck. What are you keeping that mana open for?

Is this really not enough to prove it's worth it? You are never going to be ditching 5-6 lands just to play the Stalker, and if you did, just ride Vore to victory if it's already out. If not, what good are those lands in the yard doing you now?

You can't dig for Vore without using Loam and Stronghold, and that requires at least a spare turn to topdeck it from the yard and draw. That's a turn you are giving the opponent to start stabilizing.

It takes a single mid/late game Death Cloud to make Vore larger than a Goyf, and counting discards from Death Cloud and Smallpox, cycling lands, and Loam recursion, chances are it'll be much bigger.

if you don't believe me, slip 2-3 in there, and playtest them. When you have what you believe to be the best time to drop it, write down the cards you had to pitch, and whether or not you even saw Vore by then (and what it cost it's P/T). Post those numbers here, or PM me if you like.

I highly doubt you're going to prove me wrong on this, though.

If I am cutting Witnesses for Thoughtseizes then what should I cut for Tombstalker? If it is supposed to supplement Vore then those are staying. The best option would seem to be a removal card and a support creature.

More than likely that is the correct call. I personally would be looking at a mixture of 2-3 cards from Deeds, Finks, and Edicts. Maybe cut 1 of each and just call it good there for a start.

I'm actually interested in this deck myself, if not just to have something fun to play every now and then. I'll see about getting this list proxied out and messing with it a bit myself, with the already opted Thoughtseize and Tombstalker changes.

I'm glad to see someone else interested in the deck. I would love to hear about your playtesting. I only have the resources to play at the local shop on Sundays and the occasional big tournament.

This is interesting. I have a question, though: what does "STE" stand for?

STE stands for Sakura-Tribe Elder

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Originally Posted by e=mc^2

STE stands for Sakura-Tribe Elder

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Man, I knew it was an acronym I used to use, I just couldn't put my finger on it! I haven't heard anything about STE for a while. That's kind of awesome.

Anyway, a couple things about this deck on first glance: First, there's a couple things that look weird to me, like 2-ofs ET, and Smallpox. Seems like if you play smallpox, you'd want 4. Is 2 ET really enough to see 1 a game? Do you need to see 1 a game? I've never tried this deck, but my instinct would be to play 3 to ensure I'll see one each game. Second: I'm willing to be that the Kitchen Finks haters have never played with the card. It's completely ridiculous. Think of it this way: whenever you play it, even if it is neutralized right away, you either get a mixture of tempo and card advantage, or a great deal of tempo. It of course lacks the brute force of Tarmogoyf, but is really on a similar level of power. IMO Finks is one of the more unappreciated cards in Magic.

I really can't say that in a format of huge, evasive, or undercosted creatures that a 3cc that comes back (weaker) and splashes your life total is really going to gain much in the way of tempo.

The other problem I have with it is the necessity to have BB and GG available fast. The deck's core is black, the green splash serving solely as utility. The only cards that make sense as GG in casting because of this are Witness (recurs the black spells), and Terravore (the win condition), because they only take up 5 slots in the deck.

Yes, Finks is nice in that it can come back, and it can gain you 4 life in the meantime. But it's a 3cc spell that really just gains you a little life. It's not a clock like Terravore, and it's not utility like STE or Witness. I would argue Shambling Shell has just as much purpose in the deck because of it's ability to make your minor threats bigger, and functions as backup Loams for dredge purposes.

But even then, I probably wouldn't say to put it in.

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Originally Posted by BlindMage

Man, I knew it was an acronym I used to use, I just couldn't put my finger on it! I haven't heard anything about STE for a while. That's kind of awesome.

Anyway, a couple things about this deck on first glance: First, there's a couple things that look weird to me, like 2-ofs ET, and Smallpox. Seems like if you play smallpox, you'd want 4. Is 2 ET really enough to see 1 a game? Do you need to see 1 a game? I've never tried this deck, but my instinct would be to play 3 to ensure I'll see one each game. Second: I'm willing to be that the Kitchen Finks haters have never played with the card. It's completely ridiculous. Think of it this way: whenever you play it, even if it is neutralized right away, you either get a mixture of tempo and card advantage, or a great deal of tempo. It of course lacks the brute force of Tarmogoyf, but is really on a similar level of power. IMO Finks is one of the more unappreciated cards in Magic.

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First off I'm glad that someone else loves the Finks.

@ ET (Eternal Witness?)
I only wanted to see them in the games that go on for a while. Then they could be used to recur removal or threats. They weren't really that usefull, so I a trying additional discard in their place.

@Smallpox
I was trying them out to have some additional edict effects. Now some Diabolic Edicts might become Smallpox, or the Smallpox may become Chainer's Edicts.

Goyf is really terrible in these decks because you play him as a wall against aggro on turn two and then they kill him because he's a Squire. Baloth is better.

Playing Tombstalker in your Death Cloud deck is wtf. So is Terravore. Your creatures should be guys that stave off death early because pretty much anything is good post-Cloud, and you have Harvest going long.

re: Harvest: Crypt and Extirpate are both very good against your deck. Consider adding Burning Wish.

Smallpoxing an aggro deck is completely and totally insane.

I might add a fetchland but I might not. I would probably cut a Bayou if I did. I would definitely run all four Wastelands and all eight cycling lands and would consider 26 lands to be the bare minimum.

If we're talking about changing the win condition, consider Haunting Echoes. Even Smallpox -> Haunting Echoes seems worth doing, but it will often be much better than that.

Echoes is a lot worse than Harvest because of Retrace and Harvest's ability to let you come from behind.

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Originally Posted by frogboy

Playing Tombstalker in your Death Cloud deck is wtf. So is Terravore. Your creatures should be guys that stave off death early because pretty much anything is good post-Cloud, and you have Harvest going long.

re: Harvest: Crypt and Extirpate are both very good against your deck. Consider adding Burning Wish.

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I only play one Harvest because I never want to see more than one. Because there is only one Harvest I don't want to count on it as the only win condition. Cycling into a big dude after Cloud is just as good as Harvest. In fact I don't even need Loam. I can just leave one threat in my hand after Cloud. I like not needing Loam to win. It means that Crypt and Extirpate are only a real problem for Vore and Stalker. If I can't have them I can always go Finks FTW.

Don't kid yourself, without Loam your deck is really loose. We were seriously considering Shred Memory just to have more Loams in the Extended version.

edit: you can also dredge into Harvest really fast if you're trying, and my point about Tombstalker not being very good on defense in your deck remains valid.

I agree with you frogboy. His creatures should be playable early which makes tombstalker inviable. Try tarmogoyf. Also, running smallpox without evasive creatures is dumb. For the hundredth time, run sinkhole. You will be surprised how often sinkhole will lead to a mana screw. It also is just two to take away a continuous source of mana. It repays itself during the untap phase of the opponents turn after next. That thing said earlier about pox being an aggro spell is fail. It's the most potent CONTROL spell in the game. Just because it generates it's advantage when it hits play and kills a bunch of stuff does not mean it's aggro. This is why pox has a chance versus combo while aggro is horrific versus it.

Tarmogoyf, as stated earlier, is still bad.

Have you ever actually cast Smallpox after your opponent opens on Wild Nacatl? It's a really good feeling.

I have, in a deck called pox and later in my twist on that deck, discipline pox.

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Originally Posted by bowvamp

I have, in a deck called pox and later in my twist on that deck, discipline pox.

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Thank you for telling me about your other decks. That post was extremely relevant to this thread.

Also, I don't want to drop early creatures. I want to kill my opponents stuff, then drop a dude and beat.l

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Originally Posted by bowvamp

I agree with you frogboy. His creatures should be playable early which makes tombstalker inviable. Try tarmogoyf. Also, running smallpox without evasive creatures is dumb.

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Way to read only what you want. If you agreed with Frogboy, you'd realize exactly why Tarmogoyf is bad here: he's a wall. That's it. Baloth on the other hand, might be exactly what this deck would be looking for. Slightly larger in cost than Finks, same need for GG, but a larger body and more life gain at your discretion. Worth looking into, I know Standard DC lists used to use a couple.

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For the hundredth time, run sinkhole. You will be surprised how often sinkhole will lead to a mana screw. It also is just two to take away a continuous source of mana. It repays itself during the untap phase of the opponents turn after next.

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For the hundredth time, no. This isn't Pox, this is dedicated control. There's already enough potential tempo with Smallpox, Death Cloud, Loam, Wasteland, and STE. Cutting cards that are the concept of the deck to add in narrow land destruction isn't going to get it to the end game any faster.

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That thing said earlier about pox being an aggro spell is fail. It's the most potent CONTROL spell in the game. Just because it generates it's advantage when it hits play and kills a bunch of stuff does not mean it's aggro. This is why pox has a chance versus combo while aggro is horrific versus it.

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Pox is an aggro-control deck. You know why it's distinguished as such?

It runs just enough disruption to have it's cheap aggro elements get through unhindered. Pox itself is synergy, pure and simple. Pox decks break that synergy by playing creatures that don't die to it, land destruction elements to further cut back the opponent's mana production, and discard spells to further eat it's hand. In other words, it's immune to it's own bomb.

The problem is, Pox isn't guaranteed at doing it's job alone, hence the additional 16-20 spells backing it. That's NOT control. Take the card out of a deck designed specifically around it, then come back and tell me it's the most potent control card out there, or that it's even control at all. You can't. You simply MUST break the symmetry, or be in the exact same position as your opponent.

However, the tempo gain from a single Pox is often game breaking BECAUSE of the fact the deck is aggressive at it's core. And this is also why it's got slightly better game against combo than pure aggro builds. Most of them just flat out don't pack any disruption. Land destruction, hand disruption, and a fast clock are all good against fast combo, while still having relatively solid options against pure control. Hence the rise of aggro-control in Legacy over the past few years.

Sorry to derail the thread a little bit e=mc^2, but I had to set it straight that Pox strategies do not belong here.

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Originally Posted by DeathwingZERO

Way to read only what you want. If you agreed with Frogboy, you'd realize exactly why Tarmogoyf is bad here: he's a wall. That's it. Baloth on the other hand, might be exactly what this deck would be looking for. Slightly larger in cost than Finks, same need for GG, but a larger body and more life gain at your discretion. Worth looking into, I know Standard DC lists used to use a couple.

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Baloth and Finks Both gain you 4 life. Finks has to come into play a second time, and Baloth has to die, so they both have their drawbacks. Also, by turn 4 Baloth won't be eating any Goyfs so the larger body doesn't matter there. Both Finks and Baloth can both block small tribal dudes. The extra power might end the game faster, but I chose finks because I could play it after a Death Cloud without needing another land drop. I realize that I should have Loam active by the time I play Death Cloud, But sometimes I don't.

Hey folks. I just thought I would tell you that I have been dinking about this sort of design myself. After working at it a bit, I actually went without Deeds. Instead I have Birds and Chrome Mox, and for Pete's sake, Tombstalkers, man. Chrome Mox is excellent in this deck with all the extra Loams and Crimes you tend to see. The acceleration is a really big deal too, and these cards make your recovery from Clouds so much better than the opponent. I actually have guys left over after Cloud most of the time. I think I might take Smallpox out though, for the same reasons.

Anyway, good luck

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Originally Posted by e=mc^2

Baloth and Finks Both gain you 4 life. Finks has to come into play a second time, and Baloth has to die, so they both have their drawbacks. Also, by turn 4 Baloth won't be eating any Goyfs so the larger body doesn't matter there. Both Finks and Baloth can both block small tribal dudes. The extra power might end the game faster, but I chose finks because I could play it after a Death Cloud without needing another land drop. I realize that I should have Loam active by the time I play Death Cloud, But sometimes I don't.

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Smallpox and Edict should be taking care of fast Goyfs, as well as STE (to block, at least). You don't need much more in the early game IMO, as that's already 10 slots to take on a 4 of. If you really fear an early Goyf, I'd suggest swapping those Edict's for targeted removal instead (or possibly looking into dropping Deed for spot removal, as a majority of extended lists have done...Deed is heavily mana intensive in pinch situations, you could afford to SB it for matchups where it's more than favorable for you to sit on it).

If you went that route, you'd have better control over what the opponent is getting rid of, which might help in the long run (especially against things like Thresh, where the 4/4 body can stall those Mongoose all day long). Baloth would most definitely not be a 4 of in this list either, unless you used it over Terravore for the late game. Another option is Garruk, which has seen heavy use in Ext lists because it's immune to your removal as well as being both acceleration and a win con in it's own.

There's a lot of options DC lists can use, I would probably say what your win condition is will end up being a more personal flavor. My main concern with the deck is that it has to be fast enough with stall/removal in order to put the game into DC range, and that's primarily what I'll be looking at with testing.

I would not drop all of the deeds from the main deck. It is the only MD answer to artifacts and enchantments, which is necessary with all the counter-tops around.

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Originally Posted by e=mc^2

I would not drop all of the deeds from the main deck. It is the only MD answer to artifacts and enchantments, which is necessary with all the counter-tops around.

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The main goal of a deck like this is to be as immune to CB/T as much as possible, not answering it. Threats should all be out of range of a flip, and the disruption should attempt to keep them from getting it to stick, not answering it when it does. And Deed only answers Counterbalance, most decks can dig and find another, especially using Top.

And Deed is not CB/T proof in itself. Dreadstill has 3cc, and so do most versions of Thresh, as well as ITF, having it's own Deeds as well. CB/T should be something you consider playing around, but not heavily worried about. This also is why I was urging putting in threats that are outside that range, such as Baloth/Garruk and Tombstalker. Death Cloud is already immune to it, whatever you play afterward should be also.

Counter-Top can hit Loam and raven's crime, making it hard for you to force a Death Cloud through countermagic, or dredge through the deck. Also deed solves a fast army of little dudes and any random artifact/enchantment shenanigans like Quinn. I like keeping 2-3 in the MD.

EDIT: Deed answers CB and top at the same time.

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The main goal of a deck like this is to be as immune to CB/T as much as possible

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4 Life from the Loam

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Originally Posted by e=mc^2

Counter-Top can hit Loam and raven's crime, making it hard for you to force a Death Cloud through countermagic, or dredge through the deck. Also deed solves a fast army of little dudes and any random artifact/enchantment shenanigans like Quinn. I like keeping 2-3 in the MD.

EDIT: Deed answers CB and top at the same time.

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Deed only answers Top if they've already activated it for the draw, in which they'll still get the top card anyway. Aside from that, you'd need a Needle to keep it from coming right back next turn.

The card I was considering using in Deed's place was Damnation. Most decks would only get one or two swings in with a single big creature (or a few small ones, barring goblins) by the time this went online, and it's less mana intensive than Deed for clearing boards.

It might still be good to have anyway, though not sure if it's really necessary, and what other options would be good to swap for it.

I was also considering looking into Mox Diamonds. They keep making me feel like they belong here, much like in Aggro Loam, to speed up the deck just a tad, and make better use of Loam and Death Cloud/Smallpox. Have you looked into testing them yet?