[Deck] Ultimate Walker

Co-written by Yan and Enigma

As some players noticed by the SCG reports Enigma and VsTheworld did a couple of weeks ago, one of the deck that made top8 and had a relative good success at the event was Ultimate Walker. We (me and Enigma) wanted to write up a primer about the deck I made and played for a couple of month.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//card...i_vengeant.jpg http://sales.starcitygames.com/cards...ce_beleren.jpg http://sales.starcitygames.com//card...ght-errant.jpg

All started with a common UWB Landstill list with Vindicate and the new and so famous addition: Elspeth. Eventually, with the “domination” of Vial in the metagame, Standstill became not as good as before for two reasons:1. The first real reason was its casting cost: get spell snared and counterbalanced (which was dominant in Montreal’s metagame). 2. When you are playing Standstill, you have to counter Vial (another dominant card). Then, you lose your FOW for eventual back-up. As we will see, backing-up our Planeswalker is a key with this deck, because it makes so much CA. With the loss of Standstill as the main draw engine, we needed something else. We found it with Ancestral Vision and Jace Beleren. The goal of removing 2cc from the deck became really important and we then removed Counter spell from the deck, replacing it by a soft lock named Forbid.

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/83/2ccy.jpg

Let’s go card by card with the original list:

Artifacts
2 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives

Instants
2 Cunning Wish
3 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
2 Forbid
4 Force Of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords To Plowshares

Planeswalkers
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-errant
2 Jace Beleren

Sorceries
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Decree Of Justice

Basic Lands
2 Island
2 Plains

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tolaria West
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Relic Of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Meddling Mage
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Extirpate
1 Misdirection
1 Path To Exile
1 Pulse Of The Fields
1 Pyroblast
1 Wing Shards

Crucible of worlds :
First question we were asked : Why 2? Firstly, in a control deck, we always felt it’s a game changing (no color screw, every land drop, possible lock and infinite blockers). Secondly, the addition of Forbid made the card so much better. In late game, we just discard lands to pay the buyback.

Engineered explosives:
Simply the best removal in the format. Soon to be 4-of. Auto-include. +2 Tolaria west means 6 possible E.E.

Cunning Wish:
Control needs answers. This card is all about answering everything: from Ichorid, to Progenitus, Burn, Lftl, Ancestral Vision (Misdi ), CB… Name it. Why only 2? Most of the time you need only once in the game, the second one is always overkill and will be removed to FOW.

Daze:
Don’t need anymore. It was the weakest card and we cut it for an addition Jace, Explosives and going back to 60 cards. The goal was trying to back-up the planeswalker but the replacing cards are just plain better (you always want an E.E. in your hand).

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5553/dazecopy.jpg

Fire/ice:
The first draft of the deck was including Humility and F/I was the main reason to play red because of its 2-for-1 ability. We soon realized it had synergy with Ajani Vengeant, which is better than Humility (No more krosan grip target, pure CA compares to Humility and an insane ultimate ability). 8 Spot removals give a match against Vial’s deck and Survival.

Forbid:
No more vulnerable to spell snare, and the possibility to have a late game soft lock (Draw step + Jace + Vision = at least 1 counter each turn).

FOW:
Auto-include.

Spell Snare:
4 would be good, but it’s hard to cut something, and 3 is still pretty good. With explosives, the 2cc permanent are still easy to deal with anyway.

Stp:
Auto-include

Planeswalker’s team:
Since the introduction of those cards, a couple of standard players tried it in their decks and realized how it’s good. Elspeth has been the first one introduced in Legacy that had a real influence in the metagame. They make a lot of CA in synergy with your deck and they are crazy hard to deal with in a heavy control spell’s deck like Ultimate Walker.

1 Ajani Vengeant:
It slows the game until it wins it and removes creatures while gaining life. It has a good synergy with F/I and is really good combined with his team (Elspeth and Jace). It gives a match again lands.deck and mirror (any control deck (same thing for Elspeth and Jace)).

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant:
It’s the most game-breaking card in the deck. It kills fast, or stalls forever. If it stays, it wins (infinite blockers at nine counters).

2.. now 3 Jace Beleren:
With the high amount of spot removal, it stays in play. If you play it on an empty board, you feel the victory (the same feeling with a Dark confidant that sticks, but harder to deal with). At the end, it can just finish your opponent by decking him (White Stax, Mirror, Mighty Quinn… (or any control deck)).

Ancestral Vision:
It’s our main draw engine. A must counter for any aggro-control or control deck (as standstill was before). Drawing 4 cards in a turn (sometimes 5 with Jace (hihi)) is that good. With all the removals and recursive E.E., it makes this card good and not that slow.
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2821/4ancestrals.jpg
4 Recall ? Why not.

Decree of justice:
You never want to see more than once in a game but its ability to end the game on late game is still good. It’s a good combat trick and a way to protect the walkers.

Lands:
4x Basics: A must against Blood moon and wasteland.
3x Tundra: with the 2 plains, and 4 flooded, it’s enough.
3x Volcanic: Fire is important. 2 wasn’t enough.
1x Underground Sea: EE at 4 and Extirpate.
5x Fetches: Without brainstorm, we don’t need that much. Just enough to fix the color.
2x Wasteland: You don’t want to color screw. It’s more for the Crucible lock and the man lands. Plus, it can be fetched with Tolaria.
3x Mishra’s: Too much colorless to include the fourth one. Tolaria west again.
2x Tolaria West: E.E, Mishra, Ancestral Vision, Academy Ruins, Wasteland… and it passes under opponent’s standstill. It’s another “Cunning wish” for 0cc cards.
1x Academy ruins: E.E. recursive gives games by itself.

Sideboard:
Wish targets:
Extirpate: Deal with waste, mishra’s, Lftl, Ichorid, Bridge, random noob combo…, name it.

Pyroblast: additional counters and destroyes annoying blue permanents.

BEB: A response to every moon effect and DS and general.

Path to Exile: 5th swords.

Pulse of the field: Auto-include with Cunning wish.

Dismantling Blow: 3 for 1 looks good to me.

Wing shards: Against swarm agro, Progenitus, Mongoose, ETW.

Misdirection: Another weapon for the mirror match and burn (Banefire, fireblast…)

Permanents:

4x Meddling mage:
We were needing something else against combo (ANT, Ichorid, Natural Order) and Loam.

3x Crypt effect:
I feel Ichorid is a better MU than what it was with landstill because of fire/ice and planeswalker. With Extirpate, the 3 crypt effect looks enough.

2 Relic: Against any control, loam and tarmogoyf, it’s better than Crypt.

1 Crypt: Good synergy with Tolaria West.

The final list:

// Lands
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Tolaria West
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Polluted Delta

// Spells
3 Jace Beleren
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Cunning Wish
1 Decree of Justice
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Force of Will
2 Forbid
3 Spell Snare
4 Fire/Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Wing Shards
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Misdirection

Klaus' list:

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
1 Firespout

4 Ancestral Vision
3 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Crucible of Worlds (-1 CoW, +1 Land? (U. Sea? Tolaria W.? Tundra? Basic?))
3 Engineered Explosives

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Jace Beleren
1 Decree of Justice
---------------------------
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory



Match-up coming soon…

Yan & Pierre-Marc

Just a heads-up, the deck looks very fun (planeswalkers!), going to build this in MWS and give it a spin!

I just knew Jace would show up, and it's no surprise that it would be some sort of Landstillish / control deck.

I'm glad Ancestral Vision is finally getting some respect in Legacy.

I consider it one of the top 5 draw spells in the format.

the whole 2cc not being good is true to an extent.
but ... you're playing fire/ice and you're not playing goyf.
i understand the color considerations here, but why no brainstorm, is ancestral visions > brainstorm in your mind?
i would almost rather run threads of disloyalty over forbid.

Pft... not Ultimate planeswalker till you wish in Nicol Bolas :cool:

This deck works? Seems kinda slow though, compared to how fast zoo and other tribal are these days, makes me nervous seeing no board swipe @.@ White & zero WoG?

The draw seems a bit slow. Have you guys tested against heavy discard?

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Originally Posted by bowvamp

The draw seems a bit slow. Have you guys tested against heavy discard?

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Since when has heavy discard ever been a relevant concern for the legacy metagame? The most discard you'll be likely to ever face is thoughtseize + hymn, which is from only a couple decks barely anybody plays. You may get therapied occasionally, but that's not huge either. When seeing something as slow, I'd look first to see how it does versus things that want to out tempo you.

Also, there's probably not much point in asking questions until the matchups are written, since that will probably answer a lot of questions (And raise new ones) :P

Although this "pile" looks a bit random, I really like the approach.

We had a long debate about the format sucking because it's dominated by Counter-Top-Goyf and how it spoils the fun. That's why maindeck Spell Snare is necessary because the most dangerous threats are still in the CC2 slot.

Ancestral Visions also seem to be strange, but since I have played Kadaj's MUC some time ago, I could really see they are the more efficient carddraw in compairison with Standstill.

Which leads to your first point of your primer which I really agree with: Standstill is the most situational carddraw in the Legacy format.
There are too many situations where you'd be stupid as hell to play it (Ather Vial, sometimes Nimble Mongoose). In some occasions, you can also get blown out of the water if the opponent is also playing a lot of manlands or Decree of Justice.

But pretty nice writeup, this deck definitely has got my attention now (especially now that you've cut Dazes ;-) ).

Yea, I do look forward to reading about it. I like the strategy locking people out with elspeth, draw, and counters. I can see how it shuts down late game, looks like the hardest part is holding them off till you get get those 4cc game winners out and just plain drawing them on top of that. Ancestral vision's an awesome spell on turn 5.. but only if you're still alive by then. Still I can't wait to hear more :)

No goyf or tops? I like it!

What is the reasoning behind the lack of Brainstorms?

I took this deck out for a spin on MWS and I want to say that it really wtf pwnes zoo. The games took forever, but I either killed everything he played via swords or recurring EE, or I got out the crucible and stuck him on 2 basics while I had 2 spell snare. I really like the deck, great job on it and the primer!

Very interesting deck. I like it. It breaks the symmetry of sweepers, and the walkers are very flexible. I'm not accustomed to red in pure control, so that was a nice surprise.

Please tell me more about your thoughts on Brainstorm and Top. I realize you only have so much room, but Brainstorm does look pretty strong in this deck, especially if you happen to have multiples of walkers. As for Top, I think a singleton wouldn't be a bad idea to test, as it avoids diminishing returns and remains pretty powerful.






peace,
4eak

The approach of building a deck resistant to Spell Snare and Counterbalance makes a lot of sense. I like it.

However, something's not right.

If you want to be immune to Counterbalance, which is why you don't want to run Standstill, why would you run Ancestral Vision? :confused: It's 0 mana, so if your opponent has counterbalance, all they need to do is flip a land and your draw spell is countered. Unless I'm mistaken, most CB decks run more lands in their deck than 2 cc spells.

Also, by changing the mana curve of the deck to be immune to Counterbalance, and using the 3cc Forbid as a counterspell, doesn't that invite the deck to be more vulnerable to Daze? Or Stifle on your Ancestral Vision? EDIT: Wouldn't Fact or Fiction be better at dodging CB, but then again it doesn't help your mana curve problem.

EDIT: I took another look at the final list. 22 land + 2 Tolaria West =does/not= 24 land. Also take into account the list contains SIX colorless lands. How do you beat decks like Tempo Thresh, Eva Green/Team America? Resolve Crucible at all costs? I think that's a longshot.

Overall, I feel like Ultimate Walker sacrifices too much in order to minimize one specific weakness, Counterbalance (and Spell Snare), and what it sacrifices are actually the basic core principles of a control deck, which is to have a stable manabase, and be able to cast and protect your spells. Actually, I'll take that back since you run Spell Snare (and Fire/Ice), but still, the manabase is shaky, and the deck has a high mana curve that makes all of your plays clunky.

Yeah, you resist Spell Snare/CB with Forbid, but you also weaken your ability to protect your bombs when you play them.

In conclusion, I actually like the deck, but someone's gotta ask the tough questions. Good luck in developing the deck!

I would add Moats and Humilities. 2 of each I think.

Personally, I like the deck, but honestly I think the deck is far from optimized. Some card choices are just not justifiable. Here're some that I see and argue against:

The 22 lands with 2 West is cute, but if you refer to landstill lists that test heavily, Tolaria West should never be included as a landdrop since it's a horrible Landdrop and should only count towards the "24th" land drop like EDragon. Your deck is heavy on the 4-drop and you should be happy that you have been hitting landdrops consistently. Even in basic-heavy Landstill builds, reaching 4 mana is a little hard in a meta of wastes/stifles/sinkhole. 22 Lands + 2 Tolaria West just does not cut to it. West is cute with Visions, but ultimately, Visions is too situational.

There was a thread with Visions v.s. Standstill a few months back on the source and there's a conclusion that both were situational cards, with Visions being "worse" in a sense that at the very least, you play Standstill ONLY if you have board or card position. No one is going to drop a Standstill against Vial. The very most risky play is to drop Standstill against Bob, and this is possible, but is dependent on the cards in your hand and against certain versions of bob.dec. The many points raised in the thread include:

Visions resolves, you draw 3 cards. Visions isn't situational on the board while Standstill is. If you have board position, then Standstill > Visions because it's a better topdeck and gives you cards or lets you sculpt your hand while they do not crack Standstill. Regardless, you're earning in the end. However, Visions fall under a ton of even more situational scenarios. If you drop Visions and I resolve a Standstill, you're going to cry as suspend is not a "may" resoluation. If you drop Vision and Countertop gets through, that's another problem. Visions is prone to Sprites, and also the suspending turns allow your opponent to build up cards to counter it. 4 Turns to find an answer isn't hard, and it's almost as situational as Standstill. I think that saying Standstill is susceptible to Snares and CB is true, but it's not an argument to excludes its utility since Goyfs are susceptible to Snares and CB. Your argument must be tailored to why Visions is better in your deck. You've laid certain points and they're valid since Visions feed Forbid, but so does Standstill (which happens to net Ancestrall Recall CA as well). Visions is better in your deck because you can Tolaria West tutor for it but what are the situations where you will tutor for Visions and let it resolve in 4 turns? When you're winning more of course! What happens when you are getting beaten in the face? You would more than likely tutor EE or play that land tapped to get more mana to play planeswalker/removal.

As a big lover of Landstill, I don't like the arguments that you propose against Standstill. It's the most situational draw that's true, but the deck is tailored to abuse it the most. We are seeing Landstill playing 3 instead of 4 Standstills but that's because of the meta shifting to vial decks (merfolks). However, recent Landstill builds have much better matchups against Folks with a good board plan, as well as knowing the deck better. For instance, dropping to 2 Standstill is great on the draw agains Merfolks after you lost game 1 since you won't get them early, and you can land it later after you've reset the board with EE/Disk/Wrath.

I cannot justify the lack of Brainstorm. There's a reason why it's restricted in Vintage despite the format having so much filtering power. Brainstorm is in par with Recall in terms of card knowledge (not card advantage) and is one of the biggest spells for a control deck to dig for answers. The only reason why I see you not running Brainstorm is because you run 3 Jace, but Jace is board dependent. He does detract attention from you when creatures swing to him, but then he just becomes a bad 1UU draw a card whereas you could have had a U: Draw 3 cards and dig for answers against a board.

I understand how this deck made T8 in the meta. It's a good deck, but I think it's unoptimized and not running Brainstorm or focusing too much on Visions is not too good. Perhaps you didn't run into decks that disrupted your manabase, or had Top/Standstill against Visions. In every way, Fact or Fiction >>> visions, but I think you can't run those since your curve is already very high. I do like Forbid over Counterspell and might consider it in Landstill myself, but in all honesty, Forbid <<< Counterspell or even negate if you're faced against Tempo Thresh/TA/Eva/waste.dec/stifle.dec. This deck is strong because it plays a group of permanents that Legacy is not experienced with i.e. Planeswalker. I do like how you manage to use Vengeant to its fullest in Legacy, but I think he's at best the 3rd best Planeswalker, and he's good to a large extent only because REB/Pyroblast in the board is larger than blue in this format.

Hope this is a civil discussion and contribution to this thread. Just curious though, is this deck considered to be established with only one tournament result and no deep discussions at all?

This is a really nice anti-CB-Goyf list. It makes Spell Snare next to useless and significantly weakens CounterTop. Its value is very strong in metas that are heavy in the Goyf-CBTop engine. It's probably less strong in metas that are Landstill heavy.

I suspect that it'll stay strong as long as CounterTop is the primary blue archetype in play. It'll be interesting to see how it does if Landstill continues its resurgence and begins to overtake CounterTop in the played lists.

- How the hell does this deck not play Brainstorm?

- Why do you run only 3 Factory?

- What makes Ancestral Visions any good? Control is all about surviving the early game and gaining position later on. AV hits way too late for that to have any effect. The card is almost dead against anything aggro-ish.

- What justifies Fire//Ice over other spot removal? Why won't you run PtE main?

- Forbid seems like a card that's either a 3CC counter with no benefit, or a complete overkill. Is this card really that useful, and can't you win the games you win on it anyway?

I tried this out on mws and got murdered by goblins. I think you could use a few more sweepers main.

I watched this deck play all day at the 5k, and every time you got Ajani Vengeant in play, you just crushed your opponent. Why only run 1? Its a ridiculous threat against both aggro and control.

what does it take to establish a deck on the source?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

- How the hell does this deck not play Brainstorm?

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Indeed. Why? Just why?:eek:

Brainstorm or Ancestral Visions which is tutorable by Tolaria West? I think once they've decided to run the Tolaria West engine then Ancestral Visions becomes a compelling addition.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

- What justifies Fire//Ice over other spot removal? Why won't you run PtE main?

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Fire//Ice can generate CA by hitting 2 X/1 weenies or cantrip and generate speedadvantage. And the tap effect is pretty naughty with Ajani Vengeant.

As i mentioned earlier in my post. tolaria West->Visions is a win-more strategy. Control decks do not have the luxury of win-more games since they're easily crushed by fast aggro. Countertop Thresh is easy even for the Landstill player. i can see this deck crushing countertop but Landstill does that fine. Multiple testing shows that Landstill ignores Countertop anyway, and in Vindicate builds, you deal with much more. 6StP Landstill builds have a little more trouble against Countertop but in general, Landstill is gaining popularity as Countertop deck is gaining strength. This deck is good against Countertop but I can in paper say that it loses horribly and has a much weaker matchup against other forms of Aggro decks, especially fast one. Fire//Ice does nothing against Zoo.

Tolaria West->visions is great but only when you're winning. Taking a turn to tutor up Visions on Turn 3 and playing on Turn 4 is bad. If you tutor up visions and play it on Turn 4, it's still bad since you can only start drawing on turn 7. You only make such a play if they have no board and what's the point in drawing then? Are you saying that by turn 4, this deck has answered all threats on the board with just StP and Fire//Ice? Landstill runs up to 10-15 MD creature hate spells (including EE/Disk/humility/Wrath ) and many times it still faces an unstable board. Planeswalker help a ton but only Elspeth is the real threat since she keeps growing and can protect herself. Vengeant comes close to delaying the field, but is only effective agaisnt threat-light decks such as Thresh or countertop. Against Zoo, this deck needs SB Firespout or risk losing fast.

I'd rather have Brainstorm for turn 1s to dig for FOW/Snares/StP against Lackeys and Vials and hide my stuff from Thoughtseize/Hymn, and draw at instant speed after cracking Standstill and digging another 6 cards deeper.

This deck has good card draw but lacks card filtering. There's no guarantee that Jace will draw you into your answers. I'm not attacking the deck, but I would like to see the arguments for not including Brainstorm, which is notoriously the best card draw in the early game in this format, not to mention THE best card draw for control players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

what does it take to establish a deck on the source?

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Tournament placings, mostly.

ajani's ultimate is only good vs slow decks, decks not running burn, and decks not running stifle.
plus if you really want to destroy lands why not run white staxx?
ajani's tapping 1 dude down is weak for legacy, esp since it costs 4 mana to do it. i would rather just play shackles and steal their dude forever.
sure planeswalkers are difficult to deal w/ outside of vindicate and burn, but is a 4 mana spell really what this deck needs, if so why only 1?
the pile is a oddball mix of landstill and tempo thresh imho.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MTG-Fan

Tournament placings, mostly.

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Also, a well written card choice description and matchup analysis is needed too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MTG-Fan

Tournament placings, mostly.

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I think he was being sarcastic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce

ajani's tapping 1 dude down is weak for legacy, esp since it costs 4 mana to do it. i would rather just play shackles and steal their dude forever.

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The amount of times I staring down one dude is too numerous to count on one hand. It's also a way to slow down their mana, etc, etc. It's a way to slow them down while you become stronger.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeroenC

I think he was being sarcastic.



The amount of times I staring down one dude is too numerous to count on one hand. It's also a way to slow down their mana, etc, etc. It's a way to slow them down while you become stronger.

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Ajani cant keep creatures tapped.

Goyf attacks.
I play Ajani, "bind" Goyf.
Goyf does not untap.
I bind him again.

Seems like I'm keeping it tapped.

for 3 mana you can own goyf, for 4 mana you can tap goyf.
seems terrible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce

for 3 mana you can own goyf, for 4 mana you can tap goyf.
seems terrible.

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That's a pretty surface-level analysis of ajani vengeant. He can keep any permanent tapped down, gain you life, kill medium/small dudes, bolt your opponent in the face, and occassionally destroy all your opponent's lands (good game). And each turn he can do something different than the last turn. Comparing this planeswalker to a single-purpose enchantment doesn't make too much sense.

He's definitely a really good tool, especially in a format where a lot of decks don't have an extremely large number of threats, and decks aren't usually prepared to deal with a resolved planeswalker, especially when backed by counterspells.

My bad, I thought it couldnt target creaturtes. Lern 2 reed newb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce

for 3 mana you can own goyf, for 4 mana you can tap goyf.
seems terrible.

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He beats control/aggro if unchecked, is a win condition, keeps factories, goyfs, noughts, ect... under control. Its synergistic with fire/ice, and is a continual source of card advantage. So heres a thought: Try testing the deck instead of bashing its card choices without bringing anything intelligent to the table. Or you can continue to post fail one liners. Whatever you think works better for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

That's a pretty surface-level analysis of ajani vengeant. He can keep any permanent tapped down, gain you life, kill medium/small dudes, bolt your opponent in the face, and occassionally destroy all your opponent's lands (good game). And each turn he can do something different than the last turn. Comparing this planeswalker to a single-purpose enchantment doesn't make too much sense.

He's definitely a really good tool, especially in a format where a lot of decks don't have an extremely large number of threats, and decks aren't usually prepared to deal with a resolved planeswalker, especially when backed by counterspells.

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believe me, i play type2 and i played ajani vengeant, i know how amazing he is. i just dont think he is amazing enough in legacy.
good decks have daze, and fow main as well as sower (4 drop) and counterbalance.
resolving a situational 4 mana card that has very little impact on the immediate board seems terrible in a format where turn 1, 2 and 3 wins from combo decks are common.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce

believe me, i play type2 and i played ajani vengeant, i know how amazing he is. i just dont think he is amazing enough in legacy.
good decks have daze, and fow main as well as sower (4 drop) and counterbalance.
resolving a situational 4 mana card that has very little impact on the immediate board seems terrible in a format where turn 1, 2 and 3 wins from combo decks are common.

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this

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce

resolving a situational 4 mana card that has very little impact on the immediate board seems terrible in a format where turn 1, 2 and 3 wins from combo decks are common.

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How many decks don't have something that you want to lock down on turn 4 or 5? Basically it's just the combo decks. I see a storm combo deck about every 4th tourney these days. That makes Ajani Vengeant likely to have impact when he lands about 13 out of every 14 rounds.

For a control deck I actually can't imagine that there isn't something I want to lock down by the midgame in most game because there usually is. Of course I'm usually using one shot solutions to do it. Being able to throw out a permanent to handle the situation that then allows me to switch targets when I've decided to remove the main problem (or priorities change) sounds like a win-win, particularly when that permanent can end the game for me at that point also.

And on the storm combo decks: even then mana can be a real issue for them. Keeping an Underground Sea tapped endlessly gives them yet another thing they need to draw into before they can go off in a lot of cases.

In addition to "Why not Brainstorm," why red as the third color?

Don't get me wrong. I love Ajani Vengeant here. Locking down forces them to overextend. Repeated Helixes are sexy. But there's only one of these in the deck at the moment. And it and Fire//Ice don't seem like automatically enough to not explore Black, Green, or Just straight UW.