Ichoridless Ichorid, StarCityGames Legacy 5k Top 4

A few weeks ago I was brainstorming ideas for legacy decks to take to the StarCityGames legacy 5k in Philly. The recent trend in the legacy format has been toward Zoo and Merfolk, but the format is probably the most vast available. Counterbalance top won Chicago, and despite being pretty bad against Zoo and Merfolk the deck isn't going anywhere. So I asked my friend if there was a deck that dominated zoo and still had good match-ups against both Merfolk and Counterbalance. Being good against random stuff was important too. We eventually arrived at dredge. So, I started testing the lists I found online. I wasn't really impressed with Lion's Eye Diamond. Without Deep Analysis the card didn't do much, and it was really awkward with sideboard cards. I called it a 0 mana One With Nothing. Then something awesome happened. I checked out a spoiler for Zendikar and saw Bloodghast. At first I was very skeptical, but I wanted to try it out. I started off by adding two in addition to three Ichorid. It seemed good, and I added another and another. Eventually I cut Ichorid all together for the list that placed me third at that Legacy 5k.

4 GOLGARI GRAVE-TROLL
4 STINKWEED IMP
3 GOLGARI THUG
4 TIRELESS TRIBE
4 NARCOEMEBA
4 BLOODGHAST
1 SADISTIC HYPNOTIS
1 CEPHALID SAGE
1 FLAME-KIN ZEALOT

4 BREAKTHROUGH
4 CARFUL STUDY
4 CABAL THERAPY
4 BRIDGE FROM BELOW
3 DREAD RETURN

4 UNDISCOVERED PARADISE
4 GEMSTONE MINE
4 CEPHALID COLOSSEUM
2 DAKMOR SALVAGE
1 CITY OF BRASS

SB
4 PITHING NEEDLE
4 CHAIN OF VAPOR
3 FORCE OF WILL
2 ANCIENT GRUDGE
1 ANCESTOR'S CHOSEN
1 SADISTIC HYPNOTIST


I'll go through a card by card breakdown before going into sideboarding and some of the exploits in the tournament. Honestly, my mind is far too hazy for a full a detailed tournament report, but I did the best I could. If you want to play the deck or beat it, the card breakdown and my boarding advice should be a good start.

Ok, so let's get something out of the way, cards that pretty much can't be cut:
4 Golagri Grave-Troll, 4 Stinkweed Imp, 3 Golgari Thug, 4 Bridge from Below, 4 Narcoemeba, 3 Dread Return. Most lists play these numbers within one or two. These cards would require great reasons to remove, or even to change the numbers. I have no such reasons.

Now, with that out of the way, we can move on to the elephant in the room:

Bloodghast, it seems obvious and natural to compare him with Ichorid. They both serve the same basic function in Dredge, they sacrifice for Dread Return and Cabal Therapy as well as attack when needed. Ichorid is certainly set up to do the later much better. The extra power, the trample, and always having haste all make Ichorid the better attacker. Ichorid also trigger's Bridge from Below every turn without any help. This can be very useful. Certainly Bloodghast does not just obviously out mode Ichorid. Yet, Bloodghast has it's own set of advantages. One huge advantage is activating after you've dredged for the turn. Ichorid only activates during the upkeep. That doesn't even let you dredge for your draw, never mind any sorcery shenanigans. Bloodghast lets you dredge as much as you can and then activate as many copies as you can get. Even with just the extra draw step you're much more likely to dump Bloodghasts into your graveyard than Ichorids before you've dredged. That's the primary selling point, but there is more. Let's take a look at their drawbacks. Ichorid needs a bunch of black creatures around to exile. Bloodghast needs you to make land drops. To start, exiling your creatures isn't very good if you ever want to dread return a decent size troll. Second, there are these two lands than make it so easy to keep getting land drops (and one of them was played in dredge before bloodghast was even on the seen). The long and the short is that Bloodghast is better for comboing as long as you build around him, whereas Ichorid is better for beat-down. Since I wanted to cut LED for more lands anyway, bloodghast seemed the way to go.

The lands:

4 Cephalid Colosseum - it almost made my list of cards that can't be cut. It lets you dredge 3 times and discard 3 times for 2 mana. Seems good, but the numbers aren't concrete. It's impossible to rely on by itself. It needs something else to get things rolling. It's also cold to wasteland. That being said, it's still really good and 4 seems right.
4 Undiscovered Paradise – It is, in case you missed it, the land that combos with Bloodghast. It also produces any color of mana. If you are playing Bloodghast this is a 4 of.
2 Dakmor Salvage - You need some way to get land after breakthroughing your own hand away, or playing out the first two before you've hit bloodghasts? Wizards printed a dredgable land! So, how many do I run? Obviously it sucks as a early land, but you might need to play one out early so better go with 2. 3 seems overkill, so yep 2 it is.
4 Gemstone Mine/ 1 City of Brass - These really come down to how much room you have left. Gemstone gets the nod over city because life seems more relevant than using your land more than 3 times.
15 lands have been good for me, but two weeks of testing and won tournament doesn't have the numbers set in stone.

Honorable mention- fetches and basic lands - It would be nice because wasteland is a problem, unfortunately you may need all 5 colors available.



Sorcery Shenanigans (that's just fun to say):

4 Breakthrough – It's probably the best dredge enabler out there. With 1 mana you can dredge 4 times, and with 2 mana you can dredge 4 times and keep Dakmor Salvage to drop for landfall. There are other options though.
4 Careful Study – there are certainly more powerful options available. Burning inquiry and Tolarian Winds come to mind. Careful study helps do something very important though, dig for sideboard cards. This gives it the nod, at least for me.
4 Cabal Therapy – Therapy helps up the number of creatures by sacrificing non-token creatures and activating multiple Bridge from Belows. It's also much needed early disruption. Note: When in doubt name Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile.
Honorable Mention – Unmask – if there was more room I might have squeezed a few in. It disrupts as well as Therapy, but it doesn't have the other function.

Creatures:

4 Tireless Tribe - vs Putrid Imp. Without Ichorid around Putrid Imp is no longer an automatic inclusion. If I lose the attacking angle from Ichorid I might as well play Tireless Tribe, which is worse at attacking, but it's better at keeping you alive long enough to combo out. 4 could go to 3, but you need as many ways to get things in the yard as possible. Having a discard enabler that's a creature makes the combo more consistent than adding more sorceries. Side note: Without Putrid Imp Unmask becomes a lot worse. This is another reason why Unmask didn't make the deck.


1 Sadistic Hyponotist: Ancestor's Chosen is much better against Zoo, but Dredge is already pretty good against Zoo. Why not pick a Dread Return target that is relevant against Zoo, but is ridiculous if it resolves against Counterbalance or Merfolk?

1 Cephalid Sage – Since I'm trying to combo out relatively fast this guy is a big help. I chose him over Sphinx of the Jwar for those rare cases when you breakthrough away your hand and then dread return him, in which case you'll dredge 3 and discard 2 leaving Dakmor Salvage in hand to landfall with. Wanting to dread return without threshold seems even rarer.

1 Flame-kin Zealot – Sometimes it's nice to just be able to win then and there.

Sideboard:

4 Pithing Needle – Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Wasteland, Cursecatcher, ect... ect...
4 Chain of Vapor – Leyline of the Void, Yixlid Jailer, Gaddock Teeg, ect... ect...
2 Ancient Grudge – Umezawa's Jitte and other artifacts (it seems good in theory, but I didn't ever bring it in).
1 Ancestor's chosen – 1 sideboard slot makes the most popular deck of the moment fold, sign me up!
1 Sadistic Hypnotist – See him above, now imagine having double the odds of finding this card.
3 Force of Will – MVP all day long. I should have run 4 cutting either a pithing needle or an Ancient Grudge. That's the only change I'd make in the deck if I was playing it next weekend. If you have as many blue cards as this deck, why run unmask in the board? Force can stop every hate card except Leyline, which Unmask can't hit either, and it gives you random game against other combo decks. And besides, who expects FOW from dredge? Mise! (the best part of my tournament stories are of Force wrecking peoples' days)

Sideboarding – It's really tough. I don't have set plans. If you expect a certain type of hate you bring in a certain type of anti-hate. If you're not sure you bring in just bring in Force. If you're really not sure you leave it alone and just try to combo off as fast as you can before it matters. In case it's not obvious tireless tribe is worse against Merfolk, Counterbalance and ANT, while therapy and careful study/breakthrough aren't as good against Zoo, Lands, and the mirror. Regardless, I hardly ever sideboard out all of one thing. The only thing I know for sure is that against blue you take out Flame-Kin Zealot for an extra Sadistic Hypnotist, and against non-blue aggro you take out the main deck Sadistic Hypnotist for Ancestor's Chosen.

Highlight reel:
Round 1- Natural Order Survival Elves - Dan Miller- I won the first game pretty quickly. I lost the second to an army of little green men. Game 3 I forced Loaming Shaman for the win. I'm pretty sure my opponent is still stunned.

Round 2 – Merfolk- Matt Murray - I win game one very fast. He admits he's never played against dredge and it's his first time playing merfolk. In game 2 he gets Cursecatcher down and I drop needle naming it and hope he doesn't have any hate. He doesn't and I win. Thanks Wizards for making Cursecatcher unable to respond to needle.

Round 3 – ANT - Randall Lam - Game 1 I Therapy naming swords. I see LED LED Il-Gotten gains. I don't have any creatures out so it's off to game 2. Game 2 I mulligan into Force, the hand was slow but after I rocked his day with the unexpected force I had about 5 turns to win. Game 3 I had double Force for Duress and Il-Gotten Gains. This probably still haunts him at night.

Round 4 – Zoo- Jesse Hatfield- Sweet easy match-up. Game 1 I'm a turn too slow and he attacks/ burns me out. So much for easy. Game 2 and 3 Ancestor's Chosen does it's job.

Round 5 - Merfolk- Alex Bertoncini – Unlike my round 2 Alex is one of the best merfolk players out there. Game 1 I just barely squeeze through after losing 3 Bridges to Cursecatcher and finding the third. Game 2 I'm too slow and he crushes me with 2 Adepts, Lord of Atlantis, and Mutavualt. Game three he plays out Standstill and 2 Mutavualts. I dredge into Narcoemeba at 16 life. I block and get 2 2/2 zombies going down to 14. He attacks and I block losing both bridges. I get the other 2 online before he can draw hate. He breaks his standstill dredging the rest of my deck. Apparently his plan was to do that with tormod's crypt, but lucky for me he never drew it. It still came down to swinging for exactly lethal with him having lethal on board for the next turn.

Round 6 - Lands - Chris Woltereck - I win game one, but I don't remember much about it. I lose game two after he gets down Mana Bond and wastes his own manlands to knock out my bridges. Game 3 I Forced Mana Bond, and still just barely won. He cracked a fetch while at 11, this gave my bloodghasts haste which negated his Tabernacle.

Funny story, round 7 I'm 6-0. My 6-0 opponent, the White Stax player I eventually played in the top 4, and I wanted to intentionally draw. Well, neither of us have ever been in position to ID, so we have to call a judge over to ask how to ID... awkward... Everyone around has a laugh at our expense.

I IDed again in round 8. Yes! First time top 8 and it's at a 5k! My only other real accomplishment up to this point was winning a trial at GP Chicago. (I 0-3'd after my byes in the actual GP, and had all my cards stolen BTW.)

Cedric Phillips apparently didn't make out very good on this trip money wise so he refused a top 8 chop. $300+ dollars on the line, no pressure.

In the top 8 I played against Chris again. In game 1 I literally drew my last card and won. I had attacked for 18 with bridges and Flame-Kin Zealot the turn before. Thanks to Maze of Ith I hit for 15. Tabernacle comes down the next turn and I'm all out of dread returns. My last dredge from the turn before was dakmor, and 4 Bloodghast got there. In game 2 I Forced Exploration and Mana Bond. I want to remark that he was a much better technical player than myself with a deck that had serious game against mine if played correctly. I got really lucky with a double Force hand that was still very fast.

I asked the head judge if we could chop top 4 if Cedric loses. He goes and looks it up on the computer, and by the time he comes back to confirm it Cedric is out and we all agree to chop. (Well there was 2 people still playing in the top 8, but they both agreed that whoever won would chop)

In the top 4 I played against White Stax.- Brian Peters - Trisphere, Crusible + Wasteland and Ghostly Prison are main. He had tormod's crypt in the side. I took the first game down way too fast for him. I was too slow game two and didn't see Force. Game 3 I kept a really bad 6 card hand with no dredge cards. I forced Ghostly Prison, but eventually he got his denial up and running.

I didn't stick around to watch the finals, but I just looked at the results on Starcity and I'm glad Brian won. A. Because it vindication for losing to him. B. Because us first time top 8ers gotta stick together.

All in all the deck is faster so it gains a bit against the field. It is worse against Merfolk though. Merfolk is so good at keeping you from comboing that Ichorid's better stats become relevant. It's obviously still winnable. The deck is slightly better against hate, but you still need to dodge a lot. I dodged most hate, and was really lucky with Forces. Still, I think the deck was a prime meta-game choice, and is superior to Ichorid because of its added speed and consistency. White Stax is a losing proposition, but he was probably the only Stax player there so it should be easy enough to avoid if you pick this deck up. He won, so maybe his deck will become popular. Who knows? I give props to him for adding Baneslayer Angel to Stax. It seemed unreal for him. Bloodghast was pretty unreal for myself, not just in itself, but I think it warps the deck for the better.

Thanks to that friend at the beginning of the story, Justin, for suggesting dredge, organizing the trip, and driving. Thanks to Dan for coming along, and threatening to leave me there every 5-10 minutes after I made top 8. They made the trip possible/ a lot of fun.

Congratulations on the finish. I must admit that I didn't think Ichorid could get any lamer, but playing force in the SB is pretty damn lame.

VERY interesting twist on Ichorid and its SB. I'm glad it paid off for you.

For the life of me I cannot figure out what you use cabal ritual for. Did you mean cabal therapy?

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Originally Posted by quicksilver

For the life of me I cannot figure out what you use cabal ritual for. Did you mean cabal therapy?

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Indeed

Congrats on the finish! Also, nice list for Bloodghast, thanks for all the insight into it.

Neat list, and congrats on your first top8!

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showp...&postcount=320

Hate to say I told you so, but...

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Originally Posted by Nightmare

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showp...&postcount=320

Hate to say I told you so, but...

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Guess you were ahead of the ball on me calling that one. Honestly, when I first read the spoilers I thought it was so/so. It, however, is not.

I guess, thanks for not designing and playing the deck. That would have really stole my thunder.

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Originally Posted by Bluemagex2517

Guess you were ahead of the ball on me calling that one. Honestly, when I first read the spoilers I thought it was so/so. It, however, is not.

I guess, thanks for not designing and playing the deck. That would have really stole my thunder.

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Haha, all credit is yours, my friend. I just saw some potential.

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The long and the short is that Bloodghast is better for comboing as long as you build around him, whereas Ichorid is better for beat-down. Since I wanted to cut LED for more lands anyway, bloodghast seemed the way to go.

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This made me scratch my head a bit. Other than that congrats on the finish.

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Originally Posted by sunshine

This made me scratch my head a bit. Other than that congrats on the finish.

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Was I unclear? I meant that Bloodghast is easier to get out quicker so it's easier to dread return earlier. But Ichorid is better to attack with turn after turn creating bridge tokens and marginal advantage against decks that prevent dread returning.

Like I said in the thread:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...2&postcount=53

Any comments? :wink:

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Originally Posted by Morbid-

Like I said in the thread:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...2&postcount=53

Any comments? :wink:

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"did you use it that much all day in g2/g3?" that was answered above in my report.

"Which I declined to add because it would take away a crucial draw spell or another body for Therapy/DR in Narc." - You generally slow roll you're combo if you only have one blue spell to pitch to Force. Often I won't even play land, instead just discard when I have 8. As soon as you Force something important you can go nuts. There are only a fraction of spells in any given deck that actually effect you. You wouldn't waste a force on a goyf for instance. And, if you have narcoemba in hand or an extra cureful study or break through it's no worries. It's important enough to stop certain spells that you can risk slowing yourself down. You don't bring it in against decks like Zoo, where you can't slow roll.

LoL. Dredge that plays force. I love you man, now please go and win a vintage tournament with bloodghast dredge with md fows so I can steal your tech in that format too!

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Originally Posted by Bluemagex2517

"did you use it that much all day in g2/g3?" that was answered above in my report.

"Which I declined to add because it would take away a crucial draw spell or another body for Therapy/DR in Narc." - You generally slow roll you're combo if you only have one blue spell to pitch to Force. Often I won't even play land, instead just discard when I have 8. As soon as you Force something important you can go nuts. There are only a fraction of spells in any given deck that actually effect you. You wouldn't waste a force on a goyf for instance. And, if you have narcoemba in hand or an extra cureful study or break through it's no worries. It's important enough to stop certain spells that you can risk slowing yourself down. You don't bring it in against decks like Zoo, where you can't slow roll.

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Huge props for this. Almost makes me wanna play Ichorid again. Congrats for the info // an awesome finish.

Bloodghast was talked about in Mana Ichorid in Vintage. The list is growing young and I'm glad your list in Legacy was a success. The Vintage list ran FOW MD, possibly against the new ZEN ichorid hate. Any chance that running multiples/split of Ichorid/ghast would improve getting creatures into play consistently and not risk losing to random Extirpates?

I do love the Dakmor Salvage combo with Bloodghast. It's sad that that land didn't make it in the Ichorid lists before Bloodghast since it wasn't needed. Now, you can enable multiple Bloodghasts and never worry about getting creatures online.

We now need Wizards to print a 1cc blue creature that discards like Imp and Tribe. That way, FOW can get into the MD and really screw around with many other matchups G1/G2/G3. With FOW in the MD, you shouldn't lose to combo game 1 anymore.

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Originally Posted by crz87

Bloodghast was talked about in Mana Ichorid in Vintage. The list is growing young and I'm glad your list in Legacy was a success. The Vintage list ran FOW MD, possibly against the new ZEN ichorid hate. Any chance that running multiples/split of Ichorid/ghast would improve getting creatures into play consistently and not risk losing to random Extirpates?

I do love the Dakmor Salvage combo with Bloodghast. It's sad that that land didn't make it in the Ichorid lists before Bloodghast since it wasn't needed. Now, you can enable multiple Bloodghasts and never worry about getting creatures online.

We now need Wizards to print a 1cc blue creature that discards like Imp and Tribe. That way, FOW can get into the MD and really screw around with many other matchups G1/G2/G3. With FOW in the MD, you shouldn't lose to combo game 1 anymore.

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The split was ok, I just liked Bloodghast so much better and couldn't find room for ichorid. With forces the deck would be even tighter on slots, and doesn't mana ichorid still run bazaar? So that's even less space. I'd have to work on a vintage list, but I'd imagine the low mana bazaar with fatesticher decks are better at dodging forces. Those style of vintage ichorid decks run a lot less lands, but maybe if you built around dredging dakmor every time? Idk it would require a lot of testing, and I play a lot more legacy than vintage so I'm not the person for the task.

Congrats on your finish. It's always nice to see new cards making an impact.

And Brian Peters is a good friend in my playgroup :)

Glad you T8ed with him :)

Looking at the list again, I think FOW shouldn't be MDed, since it slows the deck down. And I noticed, you have a grand total of 19 cards including FOW (20 if you played 4 FOW) to pitch to FOW. That's great and I think it's something to be terrified off when playing against Bloodghast (not Ichorid :P).

Since Ichorid games are always pretty lame, some SB strategies would´ve been interesting. I also like to hear how often you had to mull, since that IS a huge factor when playing Dredge.

Apart from that, mad props for that whole thing ;)

Could the 2 people still playing of just chopped and gotten alittle less than everyone else? Or did no one think of this at the time.

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Originally Posted by NQN

Since Ichorid games are always pretty lame, some SB strategies would´ve been interesting. I also like to hear how often you had to mull, since that IS a huge factor when playing Dredge.

Apart from that, mad props for that whole thing ;)

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I didn't mull much early in the tourney. Against ANT in the second game I mulled to 5. The first hand was actually incredibly fast, but it was ANT so no matter how fast the hand was I needed force or Therapy to even think about keeping. I mulled a lot against Zoo, but he mulled a lot against me. I mulled at least once or twice against every deck I played there after. Most 7 card 1 landers with a dredge card a keepable on the draw, and I lost a lot of die rolls. This saved me some mulligans. This is not true of Zoo and ANT, which is why I took more muligans against those decks. Against zoo I needed at least 1 breakthrough or careful study or tireless tirbe + a non-dakmor dredger + land to play that enabler in order to keep. Every game I double forced my opening 7 had both force in it, which was super lucky.

The sideboard is hard to remember because it's different for every deck and every time. I remember some things I brought in, but not what I took out. Like I said the only thing I really remember clearly was the dread return targets so I'll make those more clear, and anything else I remember.

1. Elves survival. No change in dread return targets. He's as much of a combo deck as an aggro deck so Ancestor's chosen only buys me a little time. He's not nearly as fast as zoo, so Sadistic has a good chance to hit important combo pieces. I do remember boaring in needles and then boarding them out because I didn't see any targets besides his maindeck, and on the play I'm too fast for him. Playing needle would slow me down. I kept in Force because it could stop his combo for a turn, and any surprise yard hate.

2. Merfolk. 3 Needle, no Force. Flamekin comes out for Sadistic.

3. ANT. Force comes in and and 2 chains come in to up the blue card count for force, and maybe he had leyline, who knows? -4 tireless tribe, -1 thug. Flamekin becomes sadistic, because sadistic is gg.

4. zoo. sadistic for ancestor's chosen. Force never came in, other than that I don't remember.

5. sadistic for flamekin, sage comes out because dread returning is hard to do anyway. needles come in. I brought in forces game 2, but took them out for game 3.

6. lands. Sadistic comes out, but no dread return targets come in. +3 force +2 needle. either 2 or 3 Therapies come out and some number of tireless tribe come out.

top 8. Lands. See above.

Top 4. Force comes in. Needle comes in. Maybe I should have not boarded and just hoped to combo really fast and him not draw crypt? Not likely with wasteland too. That MU is so horrible. Why oh why couldn't Dark Depths have won that game?!

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Originally Posted by lebron jim

Could the 2 people still playing of just chopped and gotten alittle less than everyone else? Or did no one think of this at the time.

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You can't chop a match in progress. And I doubt you can chop in different brackets like that.

First, congrats. Second, from the report it seems like your opponents didn't draw any hate against you after sideboarding...you only mention Loaming Shaman in the first round. Were there more Crypts/Leylines/etc involved, or did you really get a bit lucky there :wink: ?

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Originally Posted by georgjorge

First, congrats. Second, from the report it seems like your opponents didn't draw any hate against you after sideboarding...you only mention Loaming Shaman in the first round. Were there more Crypts/Leylines/etc involved, or did you really get a bit lucky there :wink: ?

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Yes I did get lucky. But, most zoo decks haven't been bothering with yard hate. And Ant doesn't usually need to bother with yard hate. I forgot to mention in my report that the first merfolk player get rid of stinkweed imp on turn 2 in the second game with crypt, but I had another stinkweed in hand. I saw crypt it against white stax game 2, and had pithing needle in hand. Damn trinisphere.

Interesting deck, really!!

Quick question, didn't you also make Top 32 at the last Legacy GP with Ichorid, or am I mistaking you for somebody else ?

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Originally Posted by georgjorge

Quick question, didn't you also make Top 32 at the last Legacy GP with Ichorid, or am I mistaking you for somebody else ?

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Completely mistaking me for someone else. This is what I played at the last GP (Chicago): http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23965

I've been working on a list like this. More Pox-y and control-ish though.

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Originally Posted by Bluemagex2517

The extra power, the trample, and always having haste all make Ichorid the better attacker.

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What trample?

Congratulations with the finish.

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Originally Posted by Ecoris

What trample?

Congratulations with the finish.

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whoops