[Deck] Dream Halls Combo

On September 19, 2009, Dream Halls came off the Legacy banlist. The card had been legal in Magic Online Classic, and resulted in no problems there; the assumption was that it would be safe for Legacy. It might even spawn some new decks. Everyone knew the enchantment was powerful (it had been banned for years in Extended and Legacy), and it had been some time since anyone built a successful Dream Halls deck for competition. Indeed the idea itself was consistently condemned on the forums as unrealistic, slow, and inconsistent. Yet, after much testing, debate, argument, and research, a number of new cards and interactions were found that interacted brilliantly with the Halls. This proved to be enough to bring Dream Halls from the casual box into the coveted card slots of tournament decks.

The end result was a powerful victory on January 2, 2010. In Frankfurt Germany, on day 6 of the 7 day Magic Marathon that was German Magic 1, Jonas Harbili piloted a Dream Halls deck to victory. The particular build was created by Harbili's, friend Marc Tobiasch, who, at the last moment, elected to play a different deck. Harbili took Tobiasch's Dream Halls all the way. With 270 competitors, over two dozen unique archetypes, and attendance from across the continent, the tournament was a major event. And Dream Halls took the top prize. Here is Harbili’s list.

Dream Halls
By Jonas Harbili
1st Place, Day 6 Legacy at German Magic 1, January 2 2010

Lands: 17
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea

Creatures: 5
1 Bogardan Hellkite
4 Progenitus

Instants: 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lim-Dul's Vault

Sorceries: 19
4 Conflux
3 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
4 Thoughtseize

Artifacts and Enchantments: 8
4 Dream Halls
3 Lotus Petal

Sideboard: 15
1 Hydroblast
2 Meditate
1 Rushing River
4 Spell Pierce
2 Duress
3 Propaganda
2 Pithing Needle

An impressive list for an impressive win. Before explaining individual card choices, I will explain how the combo itself works for those that do not immediately see it.

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Basic Deck Strategy

1. Get Dream Halls in play.
2A. Discard something to cast Conflux
2B. If you don’t have Conflux, discard something to cast Lim Dul’s Vault and cast a spell to draw Halls.
2C. If you don’t have LDV, then you should not be comboing yet.
3. With Conflux, find 1 Progenitus (Green card), 3 Cruel Ultimatum (Black, Blue, and Red cards), and 1 Conflux (White Card).
4. Discard Progenitus to cast Conflux 2, finding Hellkite, Thoughtseize, FoW.
5. Discard Hellkite to cast Ultimatum number 1. (5 life loss)
6. Ultimatum 1 returns Hellkite to hand. Discard Hellkite again to cast Ultimatum number 2. (10 life loss)
7. Ultimatum 2 returns Hellkite to hand. Discard Hellkite again to cast Ultimatum number 3. (15 life loss)
8. Ultimatum 3 returns Hellkite to hand. Discard Progenitus to cast Hellkite. (20 life loss)

This is the basic way the combo can work. You can always alter the order or find other cards as needed, but the fundamental operation will remain the same. If you are concerned about instant speed graveyard removal (A Crypt or Relic, for instance), which will kill your discarded Hellkite, then you can alter the combo process.

1. Get Dream Halls in play.
2A. Discard something to cast Conflux
2B. If you don’t have Conflux, discard something to cast Lim Dul’s Vault and cast a spell to draw Halls.
2C. If you don’t have LDV, then you should not be comboing yet.
3. With Conflux, find 1 Progenitus (White card), 2 Cruel Ultimatum (Blue and Black cards), and 1 Bogardan Hellkite (Red Card) and 1 Conflux (Green card).
4. Discard Progenitus to cast Conflux.
5. With Conflux find 1 Cruel Ultimatum and 4 Progenitus.
6. Discard Progenitus 1 to cast Ultimatum 1. (5 life loss)
7. Discard Progenitus 2 to cast Ultimatum 2. (10 life loss)
8. Discard Progenitus 3 to cast Ultimatum 3. (15 life loss)
9. Discard Progenitus 4 to cast Bogardan Hellkite. (20 life loss)

Back this up with FoW and Thoughtseize, and find your combo pieces with aggressive Brainstorming and Pondering, and you will be well on your way to some turn 2-4 wins in no time.

Alternately, you can always simply use Progenitus as a beating win condition, whether cast using Dream Halls, or dropped into play as early as turn 2 (or even 1) with Show and Tell. This makes the deck slightly more versatile than other combo decks, as it effectively as two different combo-based win conditions.

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Card Choices
THE MAINDECK

(Now, before I explain the card choices in Harbili’s deck itself, I must offer some words of disclaimer. There is no universally agreed upon deck list. Harbili’s interpretation won a major event and brought hope to Dream Halls players everywhere. But it is not flawless and it is not above criticism and revisal. This is the case with many decklists, but it is very noticeable with Dream Halls.
I have attempted to explain Harbili’s probably reasoning for using these cards in his deck. I have not spoken with him, and my reasons may not be his, and may simply be inadequate. But that is the point of discussion and refinement. )

Ancient Tomb: Accelerates Dream Halls and Show and Tell, allowing for a much faster clock. On occasion, can be risk in a tight Aggro matchup, especially against Zoo. Harbili’s build only runs 3 because Tomb can only cast 8 of his spells (Show and Tell, Dream Halls).

Islands: The deck is extremely resilient to Wasteland, owing to its 5 Island manabase. In many games, it does not even need Underground Sea, or Ancient Tomb, to win.

Lotus Petal: There are a number of contenders for this spot, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, and Dark Ritual being the frontrunners. Each has serious problems that Petal does not share.
Chrome Mox causes card disadvantage. That is particularly bad in hands where you don’t actually have your combo, and you have to pitch a draw or protection spell to get some mana. This leaves you vulnerable to counters or hate, and/or can slow you down in the long run.
Mox Diamond forces you to run extra lands to be most effective, and Harbili’s build (running only 17) does not really fit that bill.
Dark Ritual is powerful, but it costs B and adds BBB. If it cost U and added UUU, it would assuredly be in the deck. But Ritual increases your reliance on Underground Sea, which in turn makes you more vulnerable to Wasteland. Moreover, the only time that you would be able to maximize your mana gain is with Dream Halls itself. Casting anything else would not require Ritual; even with a Ritual, the earliest you could cast Show and Tell is still turn 2 (which you can do with a Petal anyway).

Bogardan Hellkite: The dragon serves multiple purposes in the deck. First, it pitches to cast Ultimatum in the first of the 2 combo processes I described above.
But Hellkite is also a viable Show and Tell target. If you need an extra turn or 2, a quick Hellkite can hold the line long enough for you to cast Halls, Ultimatums and then swing for the win.
Finally, Hellkite lets you circumvent Meddling Mage (if ever you see him…), Gaddock Teeg, and other cards that might prevent the Ultimatum path from working on its own.

Conflux / Dream Halls: Harbili’s build adheres to the combo philosophy of full-playsets. Every important combo card comes in 4’s. This increases consistency, but also decreases overall card slots.

Show and Tell: Enables the turn 2 win in some games, greatly aids the turn 3 win, and provides an alternate win in the form of Hellkite (if necessary). Redundant “mana acceleration” in most cases; between this, Petal, and Tomb, you are almost guaranteed to get Halls out before turn 4. An overall excellent card in the deck.

Brainstorm / Ponder: Quick, cheap, digging. Both pitch to FoW. Brainstorm hides combo pieces from probing discard spells. Probably the best ratio of cost to digging in all of Legacy (unless you are feeling lucky with Spoils of the Vault). Harbili likely considers these superior to comparable draw spells like Impulse, Accumulated Knowledge, Diving Top, etc. because Brainstorm/Ponder work faster and get more immediate returns. For his build, which is intent on speed, this is more important than the increased digging of Impulse, or the synergies of Top.

Lim-Dul’s Vault: Harbili decides to use the classic UB tutor instead of cards like Enlightened Tutor, Grim Tutor, Rhystic Tutor, redundant draw, etc. There are some strong cases to be made for Vault. For one it pitches to FoW, unlike any of these other cards. Second, it finds anything that you need, not just Halls. This is a limitation of Enlightened Tutor, for instance. If you need Show and Tell, a sideboard card, a FoW, etc. then LDV becomes much better.
It trumps Cunning Wish because it actually finds Halls itself (and Show and Tell for that matter). It also can be considered better than Grim Tutor owing to its cost. By turn 3, especially if on the play, Dream Halls should be casting its winning cards, not sacrificing a valuable Lotus Petal to cast the Tutor on turn 2. Tutor also loses some of its punch without Ritual, which Harbili did not choose to include. Finally, the 3 extra life loss of Tutor can be fatal in matches where you already are using Tomb to accelerate, FoW to counter a spell, and Fetchlands to grab your Islands.

Force of Will: Harbili is using a blue combo deck. FoW will be included. Period.

Thoughtseize: The 1 CC black sorcery disruption slot certainly belongs in this deck. But the question remains: Duress or Thoughtseize? Some players prefer Duress. After all, most threats are non-creature, and the 2 life loss can be very dangerous in aggro matchups (more on this to come). Is Thoughtseize warranted?
Thoughtseize handles 2 threats that Duress cannot touch. The first is Pridemage. If you don’t have FoW in the early turns of the game (which you probably won’t, given that you only have 4), then it helps to have additional assurance against the enchantment wrecking Lion. If you don’t, then you have to get redundant cards in your hand to counteract the Pridemage’s effect. This can slow you down at least a turn or two, which is lethal against Zoo.
Thoughtseize also slows down the opponent’s clock. If you are having a subpar start, or if your opponent is having a good one, preventing a turn 2 Goyf drop can be critical in keeping you alive until you can drop the Halls. Similarly, in Enchantress, taking out Argothian before she hits play can help stall the opponent until you can get your own combo online.
That said, 2 life can be a lot. If you are already losing about 3-6 life (from FoW, Fetch, Toom, and LDV), then the additional 2 life loss can put you too close to burn danger. Or attack danger. I will discuss more of this later (the self-inflicted damage), but for now, trust me that it can be a problem.
Duress can be a suitable replacement, but only if you are budget minded and confident that you will not face too many Pridemages/will be able to outrace opposing decks.

THE SIDEBOARD
Hydroblast: Additional anti-burn countermeasure. Similarly useful against a fast Goblin clock. Replace a Thoughtseize with a Blast, as in most cases, they will have the same end effect, although without the life loss (I acknowledge that Blast won’t nuke an artifact, but if you are boarding in Blast at all, then that is not your worry).
-1 Thoughtseize, +1 Hydroblast

Meditate: Boarded in against decks with a slow clock, especially Landstill and Stax decks. The card advantage is worth the wait, as your opponent is unlikely to be able to come up with a counter to your 4 additional cards in their one extra turn. When you are 5 cards richer at the beginning of your next turn, you will be more than ready to both combo out and defend your pieces. Also, the 3 CC is helpful to circumvent Chalice and Counterbalance.
Vault is less useful in these matchups. For one more mana you can get 4 more cards. The 2 CC of Vault is also a liability with Chalices and Counterbalances roaming around in these matchups (and Spell Snares, for that matter). Meditate circumvents all of these problems.
Additionally, Meditate is a strong answer to discard. If your hand gets hit hard by any number of disruption spells, Meditate lets you refill. The cost of a turn is unimportant, given that you are likely to win the moment you untap and enter the main phase.
-2 LDV, +2 Meditate

Rushing River: Sometimes you just need to bounce something. Or two somethings. Whether a threatening Pridemage, a billowing Stax, or an early Reanimator target, River gets the job done. Take out a Thoughtseize for the River, as they will often accomplish the same task. You would not want to board in River against a deck that had more instant threats than permanent threats anyway.
-1 Thoughtseize, +1 Rushing River

Spell Pierce: Wins the counter war for you against the midrange UG decks (and Merfolk, for that matter). Also extremely early as disruption against fast combo like Belcher and ANT. When adding cards like Pierce and Duress, you want to use the “little off the top” boarding strategy; taking out a single copy of cards here and there to gain additional weapons.
-4 (Permutation of Petal, Vault, Show and Tell, Progenitus, etc.), +4 Pierce

Duress: If your opponent is playing green then you can expect Krosan Grip in games 2 and 3. Use a similar “off the top” boarding strategy to get all of the Duress into your deck.
Same as above

Propaganda: Most of the time you want to race your opponent. But against Dredge, Goblins, or Zoo, you might want the extra few turns of life that Propaganda buys you. Similarly effective against Enchantress, if they get their angel tokens online. This is a tougher card to board in, as you are acknowledging that you are slow against a fast deck, as opposed to Meditate where you accept some slowness against a similarly slow deck. Moreover, your opponent will still have cards that you need to take out with Thoughtseize and Duress (Grip in most cases). I would not board in this card in most matchups and would rather try to race.

Pithing Needle: Pridemage answer, pure and simple. If Pridemage hits play then this is your only solution. Has a host of other tangential applications, but its defeating Pridemage is at the top of your list.
-1 LDV, -1 Progenitus, +2 Needle

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Advanced Deck Strategy

In this section, I will discuss some of the nuances of the Dream Halls deck. These are strategic points that apply to all matchups, and are good to consider no matter who you are playing against.

The Mana Base: Here are your chances of getting a certain number of lands in your opening hand (without mulligans):

0 Lands: 5636 times (5.64%)
1 Land: 21353 times (21.35%)
2 Lands: 32372 times (32.37%)
3 Lands: 25703 times (25.7%)
4 Lands: 11439 times (11.44%)
5 Lands: 3024 times (3.02%)
6 Lands: 441 times (0.44%)
7 Lands: 32 times (0.03%)
In 90.86% of all scenarios, you will have 1 through 4 lands, which should be playable.

Self-Inflicted Life Loss: One of the biggest game-aspects lost in goldfishing is self-inflicted life loss. Dream Halls does a fair amount in a short time and on a consistent basis. This is problematic in a field full of fast aggro decks. While it will not matter in the control matchup (slower clocks) nor the combo matchup (if the opponent goes off you are dead whether your life total is 20 or 15), it is supremely important to understand self-inflicted life loss against decks like Zoo, Goblins, Burn, and so on. This is not just a function of Harbili’s deck, although I will use his list to illustrate the point.

Look at the mana base. Harbili runs 17 lands total, of which 10 damage you: 3 Ancient Tomb and 7 Fetchlands. So you have almost a 60% chance of getting at least 1 land that damages you in your hands. In practice, this means that you will probably have either 2-3 fetchlands or 1 fetchland/1 Ancient Tomb. This gives you about 2.5 damage per game from your lands.

Now let’s look at your disruption. In some games, you will be fine with just casting 1 FoW (1 life loss). In other games, you will not get a FoW, but will instead get a Thoughtseize (2 life loss). In other games, you may need/cast both (3 life loss). This works out to around a 1.75 life loss per game on average; you have an equal chance of getting FoW or Thoughtseize (so the average of the 2 is 1.5), and a less than likely chance of getting both. This raises the total to about 1.75.

Finally, you are using Lim-Dul’s Vault. You have about a 44% chance of getting it in your opening hand, and after you cast a single draw spell, that increases to about 50%. If you get Vault, you will probably cast it, and it will probably take around 2-3 digs to get a card that you need. This means that, in a game where Vault is used, you will lose about 2.5 life on average. But you do not always draw Vault. Indeed you will probably only use it in less than 50% of games. Let us say 40% of games. So multiplying the 2.5 life loss average by the 40% of games that it is used in gives you approximately 1 life loss on average from Vault every game.

So that means you will deal yourself 2.5 damage from lands, 1.75 damage from disruption, and 1 damage from Vault on average in any given game. That’s approximately 5 damage per game. Goldfish the deck a few times and you will find that this value is extremely close to the truth.

Why is this a problem? Because decks like Zoo have a scarily fast clock. Assume a scenario where the Zoo player goes turn 1 Lynx, turn 2 Goyf, turn 3 Burn. That’s 4 damage from the Lynx on turn 2, and 10 damage from the Goyf, Lynx, and Burn spell on turn 3. That’s 14 damage. See the problem? That puts you a measly 1 life from death. If you had an extra fetchland or need more Vault digging, this could mean that you are unable to pull of the combo.

So what is the point of all of this? I have demonstrated that self-inflicted life loss is a problem in this deck, a serious one that can cost games. The way around this is to be judicious. Here are my point-by-point pieces of advice for Dream Halls pilots:
1. Thoughtseize only when necessary: If you are playing against Goblins or Zoo and it is game 1, the only serious threat that Zoo has is Pridemage. Goblins has nothing. By “serious threat” I mean a card that can stop your combo. If you need to slow down the clock, then use FoW. Avoid Thoughtseizing in the serious aggro matchups unless you know that it will help you.
2. Crack fetches only when needed: Only crack your fetchlands when you need them for mana. In general this is a good practice, but it is even more important in Dream Halls owing to the possible life loss.
3. Be flexible and patient: This point pertains specifically to LDV. Do you REALLY need to dig for Halls? Or can you just Show and Tell a Progenitus/Hellkite out right now to hold the line? Or even win the game? Vault is one of the worst, and best, cards in the deck, because players who use it have a tendency to suicidally dig for their card even after it becomes clear that further life paying is not to their advantage.

When to use Progenitus: Show and Tell can get your combo out, but it can also get the 10/10 monster into beating mode. When would you use one strategy instead of the other? First of all, see how early you can do one strategy versus the other. If you have Tomb, Petal, Show and Tell, Progenitus in your opening hand and you are on the play, and you also happen to have a blue card and FoW, then by all means, get him out there and don’t worry about the Dream Halls win condition. Second, if your hand is light on digging spells (Brainstorm/Ponder/Vault), you lack combo pieces like Conflux and Halls, but you do have Show and Tell and Progenitus, then go with that combo. The clock is ticking in many matches, and Progenitus can really slow that down.
Similarly, sometimes Show and Tell on Hellkite is also a good decision. This is especially true in the Goblin and Merfolk matchups, where a single Hellkite can virtually clear the board. In general, just be flexible. If you do not feel that you can find your combo in time (whether through statistical analysis or the heart of the cards), then look for a backup plan in Progenitus/Show and Tell.

Cards to Watch Out For: In the Legacy format, there are only a few cards that you need to specifically watch out for in addition to the normal stuff like Duress/Thoughtseize/FoW/etc. EVERY deck needs to watch out for these cards. You also need to keep an eye open for the following. Some go without saying, but it still is important to mention them.
Krosan Grip: Default Dream Halls hatred.
Qasali Pridemage: Not many decks use him, but the maindecked hatred is rough in game 1.
Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast: It is tempting to hastily combo out against decks that do not appear to pack countermagic. Then the Blast hits.
Gaddock Teeg: Shuts down all aspects of the main combo. Show and Tell with Hellkite/Progenitus circumvents the little guy.
Ethersworn Canonist: Same as above.
Umezawa’s Jitte: An early Jitte drop and equip will put your opponent above 20 life in a hurry. Progenitus beats is the solution here.
Burrenton Forge Tender: You have probably begun to notice that most of these cards stop the combo. Not the Progenitus.
Aura of Silence: The enchantment version of Pridemage, more or less.
Rhox War Monk: Similar to Jitte.
Extirpate: Nightmare card, even though not many decks use it. If cast in the middle of a combo, it could leave you a turn behind and on the rocks. As usual, however, it does nothing to stop Progenitus.
Chain of Vapor: Dredge’s weapon of choice against Halls. Bounces the enchantment in response to a spell being cast to slow you down. Useless against Progenitus.
Iona, Shield of the Emeria: This is the only card on the list that stops both of your plans. If Iona gets out and names blue, you are scooping. No Halls, no Show and Tell, no FoW, no nothing. This creature is one of the strongest cases to change part of the board to include a Snuff Out or two, although even that may be a lost cause, given that you cannot back it up with FoW (Duress/Thoughtseize backup, however, will work).
Arcane Laboratory: Enchantment version of Cannonist.
Ray of Revelation: Aggro Loam will use this and Grip for redundant hatred.
Zuran Orb: Like Jitte, but when combined with Glacial Chasm and Loam, can produce a seriously problematic engine that means Progenitus can’t attack.
This is not an exhaustive list, but it gives you some idea of the huge vulnerabilities, especially in games 2 and 3, that the Dream Halls combo itself is going to have. Plan accordingly. Do not assume that a deck has no threats just because you think you know their list. Always try to have a backup plan (read: Progenitus) whenever you are trying to combo against any deck that might have these cards. You will notice that these cards do little to stop Progenitus, but everything to stop Halls. Keep that well in mind.

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Matchups

Matchups are sorted alphabetically. Not all decks have been included on this list, as some matchups will be similar to others. Based off of recent tournament results, these are the decks that a potential Dream Halls player should be prepared to face.

Aggro Loam: Favorable
Your opponent will have almost no chance of stopping you in game 1, unless you get a bad draw and get beaten to death. The only cards that you have to worry about are Chalice of the Void at 1, which will slow your digging down, and Burning Wish for Hull Breach or Reverent Silence. Chalice only slows you down, and Wish is itself a slow plan that you should be able to stop with either Thoughtseize or FoW. It is to your advantage to just go for the Dream Halls route, unless you know that you can protect Progenitus from a possible Chainer’s Edict, Perish, or other wishable removal spell.
Krosan Grip will be the name of the game in games 2 and 3. Ray of Revelation might also make a showing. If your opponent showed no sign of Burning Wish during game 1, and you want to assume that he does not actually have a Burning Wish in his deck, then you can simply side out a few pieces of the Halls combo and switch to Progenitus beat mode with disruption package backup. If Wish is still in the picture, then keep your options open. Spell Pierce or Duress are the only cards worth bringing in no matter what, but because Loam has very few cards that actually threaten your plan, you need not bring in many.
Boarding strategy: -1 Conflux, -1 Halls, -1 Vault, +3 Duress/Pierce

ANT: Favorable
It’s almost a strict race to the finish. You have to worry about FoW, Pierce, Duress, and perhaps a maindecked bounce spell. There is no reason to not go for the Dream Halls combo, unless you can get Progenitus out on turn 1; by the time you get him out on turn 2, you will already be winning by turn 4. At that point in time, you might as well try for the turn 3 or 4 Halls win.
In games 2 and 3, you can totally switch around your plan. I have found it quite effective to board out most of the Halls combo and add in both the Pierces and Duresses. Then you can just go for the Progenitus/Hellkite beat plan, which you can resolve by turn 3 most of the time, while sitting behind a shield of a whopping 16 disruption/counter spells. ANT, on the other hand, will be unable to so easily switch their strategy, and will have a highly unfavorable game 2 and 3. Why get rid of your combo if the matchup is a straight race? Because in doing so, you can double your disruption spells while ANT is pretty much stuck at their usual package. This gives your Progenitus a strong chance of ending the game while ANT fumbles around for its Storm count. Regardless, as a result of games 2 and 3, the match as a whole is in your favor.
Boarding strategy: -2 Conflux, -3 Ultimatum, -1 Halls, +2 Duress, +4 Spell Pierce

Belcher: Favorable
ANT is almost a strict race. Belcher, at least in game 1, is 100% a strict race. Unless the Belcher player wishes for Hull Breach, you just need to beat them to the finish. As long as you have 1 FoW or 1 Thoughtseize, you should be able to manage this; the probability works out in your favor of having either these cards by turn 2.
Games 2 and 3 are a bit of a toss up. If Belcher resolves a turn 1 Xantid Swarm, then they are going to be able to win the subsequent race (most of the time). If they do not side in the Swarms and instead bring Duress into the picture, then you have to worry about disruption. Basically, you do not know what the Belcher player will do; will they try and stop your combo, or try and protect their own? Because of Swarm, it is extremely foolish to rely on the Progenitus strategy in games 2 and 3. If that green critter gets out, your clock is ticking down, and Progenitus is not going to be able to race it. Adding in the Duress set will be quite helpful, as 11 disruption spells are going to be a challenge for Belcher to circumvent (especially if used judiciously). Just watch out for the surprise Empty the Warrens. If you were planning to FoW Belcher and then find yourself having to FoW a Warrens, you are going to be in serious trouble. Remember, however, the Ultimatum can keep you alive here for a turn if you do not have the full combo assembled. The same goes for Hellkite.
Boarding strategy: -1 Vault, -2 Progenitus, +2 Duress, +1 Hydroblast

Countertop: Unfavorable
So much countermagic. Counterspell, FoW, Daze, Spell Snare, Counterbalance, Hydroblast; this is but a sample of what you will face in this matchup. When combined with the Goyf/Rhox clock, you could be in serious trouble. Especially given that one or two Rhox swings tends to put the Countertop pilot at 20+ life, and out of range of a single turn combo kill. Make sure that you have a Progenitus back up plan in the works; even a simple Swords on their own Tarmogoyf can put them at over 20 life, and bring your lone Hellkite into range of Path or Swords. Remember, the Countertop player just needs one creature out to smash, and can hold 4+ counters in hand to deal with your combo. You have to invest far more in order to win.
The story is not much better after boarding. You will have even more spells to worry about, like Grip, Elemental Blast, Chalice, and others. Your best bet is likely ditching the Halls combo altogether. But what about the random ‘I win’ factor? Forget about it. If you dealt with 12-16 counters in game 1, expect 16+ in game 2 (or at least 12+ and some permutation of Grips and Extirpates). You will have a much better chance of resolving a Show and Tell on Progenitus then you will of resolving the whole combo; one takes up 8 slots. The other takes up 15. Meditate is valuable in this matchup, especially because at 3 CC it does not get countered by Countertop or Snare. Moreover, your clock is not that serious. Getting 4 extra cards can help bolster your arsenal to win a counterwar.
Boarding strategy: -1 Vault, -2 Halls, -2 Conflux, -3 Ultimatum, +2 Meditate, +2 Duress, +3 Pierce.

Dredge: Neutral
Another race, but this time you are guaranteed to get hit by disruption spells. Or rather, one spell: Therapy. You will probably get Therapied 3 times by turn 4 (2 if you are lucky). Guaranteed disruption, by virtue of excessive dredging, coupled with a blazing fast clock can be problematic in game 1. Don’t even think about the Progenitus beating plan; three turns is just not fast enough when the zombies are building for an assault.
Games 2 and 3 are slightly better. Unfortunately, unlike most decks in the format, you do not have any graveyard hate in your board. That’s the bad news. The good news is Dredge has very little to board in against you. You might have to worry about a Dread Return on Iona, perhaps a Ray of Revelation, and maybe a Chain of Vapor. But you don’t have to worry about much else. Thoughtseize is useless in this matchup, so get rid of all 4 of them in favor of Spell Pierce, which can be critical for stopping Return and Therapy. Propaganda is also immensely helpful in slowing the clock down. Shed some of the less useful cards (in addition to Thoughtseize, get rid of Vault, because it’s suicidal, and Progenitus, because you are not going to win the beatdown game) to improve your game 2 and 3 matchup.
Boarding strategy: -1 Vault, -2 Progenitus, -4 Thoughtseize, +4 Spell Pierce, +3 Propaganda.

Goblins: Highly Favorable
What differentiates this Aggro matchup from the Zoo matchup or the Merfolk matchup? Lack of answers. Quite simply put, there is almost no card that Goblins can use that can stop you. All you have to worry about is their clock. This means you do not have to use Thoughtseize to proactively remove threats, nor do you have to waste time getting a FoW to protect your combo; once you go off, you go off. Period. End of story. The Goblins clock is about as fast as the Zoo clock (turn 4 win), and your clock is approximately a turn 3 win, with consistency. Turn 4 if you want to be conservative. Obviously you do not under any circumstances want to go for the Progenitus plan, unless you can get him out on turn 1 (or turn 2 on the play). The monster is just not fast enough to race the horde.
Games 2 and 3 you will only have to worry about Red Elemental Blast, and perhaps Chalice. Some decks pack neither, in which case this is just a repeat of game 1. You can board in Propaganda to give you a huge clock extension, and you can add in a Hydroblast to slightly bolster your counterspell arsenal.
Boarding strategy: -4 Thoughtseize, +3 Propaganda, +1 Hydroblast

Lands (38/43): Neutral-Favorable
Game 1 is essentially a free win for you. The only card you need to worry about is Glacial Chasm, but even Chasm can only stop 5 of the 20 life loss as a result of your combo. Bring Progenitus onto the field (to avoid Maze of Ith shenanigans) and keep Chasm in the yard (FoW on Loam) to seal the game. You have a lot of time to set this up, or at least more than you would in other matches.
So why is this match only neutral? Games 2 and 3 can get ugly. Krosan Grip and Ray of Revelation are slightly annoying, but overall not that bad; there is nothing uniquely bad about the matchup just regarding these two cards. Zuran Orb is the problem child here. When used in tandem with an active Chasm, this will shut down your entire attack strategy and leave your opponent hanging at around 5 life but just out of reach. Do not ever let an Orb resolve. If you do, endless life gain and Chasm/Stadium/Cycle-land recursion will dash all hopes of victory. Thankfully, however, because Lands does not exactly pack redundant hatred, you should be able to get lucky in at least 1 of the 3 games and dash to the finish while your opponent fumbles around for a Chasm or Grip. For boarding you want to add in a pair of Duress and Pierce, the former for Grip and Orb, and the latter for Ray and Loam. This will give you 12 disruption spells to guarantee your success.
Boarding Strategy: -2 Progenitus, -1 Vault, -1 Petal, +2 Duress, +2 Spell Pierce

Merfolk: Highly Unfavorable
Your nightmare matchup. Fast clock combined with ample countermagic shield is a recipe for catastrophe to the aspiring combo player. Cursecatcher alone will slow Show and Tell down by at least 1 turn. Combine that with Daze and FoW and you have a serious wall of counterspells to pierce. Now, add on top of that Standstill, so the Fish player can draw into even more countermagic, and Jitte, to put them out of combo range, and you have yourself the classic nightmare matchup. There are three tricks to winning this match. First, don’t be scared. If you have FoW backup for your Halls, do not assume that your opponent has a FoW AND a Daze just because they have more than three cards in hand. You will miss your window of opportunity to win and learn in dismay that they did not even have the FoW, let alone 2 counterspells.
Second, don’t be stupid. Do not tap out to cast a Show and Tell if your opponent has a Cursecatcher in play. Do not forget that there are charge counters on a Jitte. Errors like these will cost you games, and they are easy to make against the already frightening Merfolk deck.
Third, pay attention to the Merfolk clock. Unlike Zoo and Goblins, aggro decks that consistently can muster a turn 4 kill, Merfolk tends to be a bit slower. If your opponent is having a slower start, then use your draw and tutor spells to find protection spells (FoW, TS) or redundancy (extra Show and Tell, Halls). Double Show and Tell is especially effective, especially when backed up with other spells. You cannot afford to go for this sort of redundancy in a Zoo matchup, because the clock is so much faster. But against Merfolk, it can be worth the wait.
Games 2 and 3 are worse than game 1. You will also have to face Hydroblast and Spell Pierce in addition to all the counters of your first game. Duress and Spell Pierce are your answers here. Unfortunately, it is hard to sideboard against Merfolk because you cannot just ditch a strategy (Progenitus or Halls) as in other matchups. This means you have to choose which you are going to use as your primary. I prefer Progenitus, as it renders their Hydroblasts ineffective; they are meant to counter Ultimatum, not Show and Tell.
Boarding Strategy: -2 Halls, -2 Conflux, -1 Vault, +2 Duress, +3 Spell Pierce

Zoo: Unfavorable
Maindeck answers, a fast clock, and a dangerous sideboard characterizes the Zoo matchup. The turn 4 clock of Goblins is made far more dangerous when you add in Pridemage to the mix. If he slips through into play, then you essentially have to switch to the Progenitus plan. Even this, however, might not be enough, especially if burn spells start flying at your face. While Harbili himself went 2-0 against Zoo in his tournament, this should not be viewed as representative of the matchup overall. In his first game, the Zoo player did not drop a plains and thus missed out on 3 critical points of Nacatl damage over the next few turns; this would have ended the game. Similarly, his opponent did not draw any enchantment removal in either game.
The first order of business in sideboarding is to lower your Thoughtseize and Vault count; these cards tend to kill you rather than help you. Duress comes in to deal with Grip, and Propaganda comes in to greatly increase your survival chances.
Boarding Strategy: -1 Vault, -3 Thoughtseize, -1 Progenitus, +2 Duress, +3 Propaganda

----------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusions

Dream Halls is a powerful combo deck, but Harbili’s build is not the end-all-be-all strategy. There have been similar Dream Halls showings since his win, many of which were slightly different builds. This should be debated and discussed in the post itself, and not leveled as an attack against the primer; I acknowledge that there is no BEST build. I merely am giving an explanation of one specific build.

I will post additional tournament information on this deck (And its variations) as they are presented in the thread.

-ktkenshinx-

----------------------------------------------------------------
Additional Builds & Tournament Appearances

Dream Halls
By Jaime Cano and Césat Fernández: GP Madrid 2010
2nd and 4th place respectively (same decklist)

Lands: 17
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Flooded Strand
5 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea

Creatures: 4
4 Progenitus

Instants: 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lim-Dul's Vault

Sorcery: 20
4 Conflux
4 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
4 Thoughtseize

Artifacts and Enchantments: 7
3 Lotus Petal
4 Dream Halls

Sideboard: 15
2 Meditate
1 Rushing River
4 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away
2 Duress
3 Propaganda
2 Pithing Needle

------------------------------------------

Great Primer. I can see you put lots of work in it, so i am sorry i have to spoil that:
How often did you actually play this deck in a real tournament?
This

Quote:

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3. With Conflux, find 1 Progenitus (Blue card), 3 Cruel Ultimatum (White, Green, and Black cards), and 1 Bogardan Hellkite (Red Card).

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does not work because of Cruel Ultimatum's colors, so you should edit that line to a combo chain which works

Quote:

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Rushing River: Sometimes you just need to bounce something ... or an early Reanimator target

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I'm not sure I would board this in against reanimator, because like you say later in your primer, they would just reanimate Iona game 2/3 naming blue. I think it's much more worthwhile to board in extra duress/countermagic to prevent their reanimates and extirpates.

This is true, Cruel Ultimatum is BUR...
but the combo can still be achieved by getting the following:
Progenitus (Green), 2 Cruel Ultimatum (B and U), Conflux (W), and Bogardan Hellkite (R)
Then cast the Conflux for Cruel Ultimatum and 4 other pitch cards (prog's and confluxs).
then cast 3 Cruels and Hellkite for the win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dorsch

Great Primer. I can see you put lots of work in it, so i am sorry i have to spoil that:
How often did you actually play this deck in a real tournament?
Thisdoes not work because of Cruel Ultimatum's colors

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Then just switch Progenitus as the green card and the Ultimatum as the blue card. Then get another conflux as the white card?...

From countertop you must fear Pyroblasts more than Hydroblasts (UGrx versions)

Awesome primer. I wonder if the guys who placed well (Harbili and didn't someone do well at an SCG event?) would give us their thoughts. Is there an approaching consensus on what the best wincon package is?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dorsch

Great Primer. I can see you put lots of work in it, so i am sorry i have to spoil that:
How often did you actually play this deck in a real tournament?

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I have not played this in a tournament, that is true. I did, however, test Halls in 25 sample 3-game bouts against each of the matchups listed. It is from this testing (none of which was done on Workstation) that my experience comes.

Quote:

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Thisdoes not work because of Cruel Ultimatum's colors, so you should edit that line to a combo chain which works

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I have edited this to reflect my oversight. Writing long primers tends to see one forget the little details like this; good catch.

Once the data from the most recent SCG event is released (the excel spreadsheet) then I will update this accordingly with that deck's matchups. Someone did indeed finish 28th of 117 at Dallas/Ft. Worth; his list is given below:

Dream Halls
By Dustin Buckingham
5 Island
4 Force of Will
3 Conflux
1 Echoing Truth
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Polluted Delta
4 Dream Halls
3 Cruel Ultimatum
3 Lotus Petal
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Underground Sea
4 Show and Tell
4 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
SB: 4 Progenitus
SB: 3 Diabolic Edict
SB: 4 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Ravenous Trap

His build is extremely similar to Harbili's in most respects.

-ktkenshinx-

- One thing I noted in the replies to this thread and the old DH thread: People are too afraid to go for Show and Tell / Progenitus, some even to the point at which they don't want to play Progeitus at all: Yes it can be outraced. But that doesnt really matter, you win some games and lose some games, thats the basic thing about nearly every combo, you go for it and see if it is enough. I mean, don't do it against Goblins or Pox or when Prog clearly won't win the race but it is often giving you good odds.
ANT is an awesome deck which has the luxury of being able to cast Chant and have a 100% Combo, but usually Combo decks are based on taking risks - I've seen Mind's Desire for 12 fizzle and Mind's Desire for 1 win. DH has other advantages when compared to ANT. Some ANT versions even side in Dark Confidant or Xantid Swarm, because they HELP winning if you untap with them. Progenitus needs no help for that.

If you see Tropical Islands on the opponents side, just go for it.
They have a hard time countering a Show and Tell on turn 3 (make sure to have Petal or Tomb so you get around Daze), especially if you either Thoughtseized or have FoW ready. They will drop Goyf, you drop Progenitus and they will scoop. GG. But if you let the game go on and on to set up a perfect DH combo they will find more and more disruption every turn, maybe even Counterbalance with FoW and trinket Mage on Top.

It is often the same thing with Staxx. Even though they might have solutions for it, like Moat or Tabernacle/Geddon it will still be better to go for it than just waiting for them to drop Trinisphere and Chalice on 1/2 and Geddon you. Same with Landstill, but here it is better. If they have Moat or Wrath you get another shot with DH later, if they dont have it, you just got a free win.

- For what you get with the first Conflux:
a) If you are not worried about disruption (like free Krosan Grips): it doesnt really matter: you just get something like 2 additional Confluxxes, 2 Ultimatum, 1 Hellkite and it is more than easy from then on, because all the Confluxxes give you way more gas than you need. You can't do anything wrong.

b) If you are worried about disruption: First of all cast the first spell without passing priority.

In G2 if they play Green Mana they will often be waiting with Krosan Grip and thus it is best to lead with a Cruel Ultimatum so that you survive more turns if they Grip it. The Ultimatum will usually draw you more gas so you can combo again in one or two turns and it also usually buys you enough time to live until then - they probably just lost their complete hand and a creature and you gained 5 life. Furthermore the Ulrimatum will have wrecked their hand so that they won't disrupt again.

If you have no Ultimatum, but a Conflux you should play it safe and get another Dream Halls. Furthermore a Lim Duls Vault, two Conflux and a Cruel Ultimatum. If they let Conflux resolve without Gripping it then you have won because they don't have Grip. Cast Cruel Ultimatum to make absolutely sure you have won and go on as in G1. If they Grip it you will have another Dream Halls for the next turn and you will be able to cast Cruel Ultimatum from it.

hi

ive build this deck and the first question that came to my head was, what are we doing againts discard and blast those are the worst card right ? but then ive started to realize why not playing chalice of the void!!! it stop everything we fear except krosan grip im still wanderring if i will try this baby main or in the side board. of course the deck needs a little tweak i presume but that is the list im trying right now

key spell 8

4 dream hall
4 show and tell

the kills 12

4 progenitus
3 cruel ultimatum
1 all sun dawn
4 conflux

disrupt 8

4 force of will
4 thoughtseize

deck manipulation 11

4 brainstorm
3 impulse
4 lim dul's vault

mana 21

4 ancient tomb
4 chrome mox
3 underground sea
4 polluted delta
2 scalding tarn
3 island
1 swamp

side 15

2 wipeaway
2 hurklys recall
4 chalice of the void
2 duress
3 ravenous trap
2 propaganda

chalice does not just stop hate it win you game its excellent againts zoo tempo ***** and any kind of storm combo once its on the play for exemple they cannot sword their own creature to gain life...:tongue:

i think chalice should be at least considered

what are you thinking ?

I prefer the slightly more compact win condition of:

-1 hellkite
-3 cruel ultimatum

+1 tendrils of agony
+3 Open spots

1 Tendrils is all that is needed.

Dream halls--> conflux 4 times netting force + tendrils + 9 other cards. Play 4 of those 9 other cards. Impulse or Brainstorm into other spells. to pitch to play tendrils.

The one functionality I miss is playing cruel off of dream halls to draw into conflux.

Great primer, ktkenshinx. It's very thorough.

Quote:

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If you have no Ultimatum, but a Conflux you should play it safe and get another Dream Halls. Furthermore a Lim Duls Vault, two Conflux and a Cruel Ultimatum. If they let Conflux resolve without Gripping it then you have won because they don't have Grip. Cast Cruel Ultimatum to make absolutely sure you have won and go on as in G1. If they Grip it you will have another Dream Halls for the next turn and you will be able to cast Cruel Ultimatum from it.

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After Dream Halls hits play, you have priority cast Conflux. They either Grip in response or they don't.
- If they do, then you can choose to fetch something like Dark Ritual + Dream Halls to go off next turn.
- If they don't, then you'd have 4 cards + Conflux again, and then you have priority again with Dream Halls in play.
The point is that what you search for depends on whether they grip in response, right?

Quote:

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Best win condition

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There's no consensus. Harbili’s win package is pretty decent. There are no necessarily dead cards pre-conflux; Progenitus (and to a lesser extent Hellkite) can be S&T'd in, and Cruel Ultimatum gives you 7 cards to cast off Dream Halls. It's also worth noting that even though the deck deals at most 20 damage on the turn it combo's off, following up 2/3 CUs with Dragon and Progenitus is usually game. It's almost assuredly game postboard, because you can tutor up a bounce spell to get rid of any permanent.
Storm is not a great kill because you then need answers to Trinisphere and Canonist, while other kill conditions can slow roll 1 CU a turn. It's also harder to win if they've hit you a few times with RWM. Tendrils is dead pre-combo, and having Tendrils discarded leaves you without a win condition.

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Goblin's MU

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I've actually found the Goblins MU about as difficult as Zoo. Ports and Wastelands slow us down by a full turn, and if Goblins realizes it's up against combo, it can mulligan aggressively into fast hands.

In brief, I've also found that Landstill is a very easy MU because they have around 7-9 relevant cards (Counterspell, FoW, and some combination of Clique/Cunning Wish/random tech). Eva Green is generally a terrible MU - discard affects us much more than other combo decks, and they put down a reasonably fast clock. Rock is not as bad as Eva Green, but it depends on the build. Tempo Thresh is generally easy, but it depends on the draws. Lim Dul's Vault is their only spell snare target, and the only other relevant spells they have are Stifle, Force, and Vendilion Clique. I also didn't find Counter-top to be as bad as described, but I haven't playtested that matchup a lot, and the skill of the Counter-top player is obviously a big factor. Versions with Qasali Pridemage are very difficult, but Daze can be played around, and Spell Snare only counters Vault, which can be boarded out.

I'd like to make a case for Dark Ritual over Ancient Tomb and Lotus Petal. I fully understand the merits of Tomb, and am testing it in the place of some lands and Dark Rituals in my build. It's nice to open up some non-land slots and to not worry about card disadvantage from Ritual (I run fewer progenitus, so I also have more slots for lands). I like Dark Ritual because it gives you a full 8 cards that cast Dream Halls on turn three. It conveniently provides better protection against Daze. The downside is that you have 2 fewer cards for a turn 2 Show and Tell, but the chance of having acceleration + S&T + Progenitus/Combo in hand is small enough that the difference. Turn 3 seems to be the magical goldfish turn, because the first 2 turns are usually spent cantripping. It doesn't necessarily make you more reliant on Underground Sea because you can run more basics in the Ancient Tomb slots. Also, if you run 20-ish lands, Ritual can be boarded out in control MUs.

Nice Primer but awful list. I don't give a shit it has won a big tourney or not. My version of the deck plays 20 lands + 4 petals + 6 cantrips + 3 tops. Even with this, I have hard time finding my mana in some MUs (Canadian Thresh and Eva Green to start with). Reducing the land count to 17 and relying on Show and Tell that much is really not the way to go. Against discard, it has absolutely no chance neither since it plays no card advantage and no top.

Has anyone considered Searing Wind as an alternate source of large damage? It deals 10, and it cuts down on the steps required:

1) Cast DH
2) Cast Conflux for CU, CU, Conflux, Searing Wind, Progenitus
3) Discard Progenitus to cast Conflux, getting Conflux, Prog, Prog, CU, All Suns Dawn.
4) Discard PRog for CU.
5) Discard CU for CU.
6) Discard Conflux for Searing Wind (for the win)/All Sun's Dawn (if any steps were countered).

And you can always just go nuts, if necessary :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maveric78f

Nice Primer but awful list. I don't give a shit it has won a big tourney or not. My version of the deck plays 20 lands + 4 petals + 6 cantrips + 3 tops. Even with this, I have hard time finding my mana in some MUs (Canadian Thresh and Eva Green to start with). Reducing the land count to 17 and relying on Show and Tell that much is really not the way to go. Against discard, it has absolutely no chance neither since it plays no card advantage and no top.

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You are too harsh. This deck has proven itself, and if your list isn't competitive, don't blame it on this list.

That said, I play 25 lands and 3 Mox Diamonds. I also think that the combo shouldn't need Show and Tell to go off. If majority of the time you just use Show and Tell to drop a fatty, I feel you could as well drop the Halls and its massive support package and play more consistent S&T deck.
In order to reliably cast Dream Halls, land count should be 20 or above and include at least four copies of Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors.

I also dislike Force of Will because of the card disadvantage. Like Maveric78 said, there's no real card advantage going on here. I decided not to play Fow for now, since it takes an invaluable card from your hand and I already have had problems comboing when I have Dream Halls but have cantripped/used all the coloured cards and cannot cast Conflux. This adds up when you are facing discard. By removing Fow you could replace Ponders with Tops and improve immediately the discard matchups. It also makes playing Mystical tutor even more appealing. In last tournament I won majority of the games by tutoring Conflux at the end of opponents turn and during my turn dropping Dream Halls. I understand tutor being more card disadvantage, but I don't think that this deck even needs Fow while tutor drastically improves your chances of having business in hand while playing Halls.

Some notes:
- I consider cutting S&T a huge mistake, reasons has been expressed by others already.
- The smallest possible kill with the largest number of Progenitus looks good,
to make S&T stronger.
- Cutting FoW is a huge mistake in my opinion, card advatange is not everything, if they drop a Pridemage or something it can screw you badly. Fow helps here.
- If you dont go for the fastest possible kill like the orginal list, say aim for a turn 5 kill, Ancestral Visions is a great tool. As its nice to cast of Halls in order to find Conflux and it lets you recover from discard / whatever. If so you would need additional ways to survice to that point though. Concentrate can also be considered with the proper acceleration. Cast it on turn 3 to set up the turn 4 combo.
- I also thought about Flash of Insight as it can be discarded for Halls, gives ca and also finds the second piece. Requires a bunch of blue and UU in that turn though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hopo

You are too harsh. This deck has proven itself, and if your list isn't competitive, don't blame it on this list.

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I never said that.

FoW is a necessary evil. Not to protect your combo because it does it quite unefficiently (since you'd need 5 cards to combo), but as a versatile universal turn 0 to turn infty solution. It's also great to fight against random hate after playing Conflux, along with Thoughtseize. As I said earlier, the best protection spells for the combo are Duress/Thoughtseize and Spell Snare. The first one deals proactively with everything, but it's empties your hand which is bad. The second one is the answer to every non split second and non counterspell hate : hate bears, Qasali, counterbalance, hymn, mana denial (smallpox/sinkhole). Spell Pierce is good too.

Instead of Fow I've been playing Cabal Therapy. But I must admit that Rector version plays quite differently and benefits massively from therapy. I'm advocating one-mana discard spells as primary protection.

As a sidenote: You shouldn't give too much credit to Jonas Harbili. The deck's inventor is Marc Tobiasch, who lent the deck to Jonas. Marc decided against playing the deck in favour of his 4c Kitchen Finks control deck by flipping a coin.

The Meditates are a SB answer to discard. Marc said he has got enough other weapons to fight blue control.

I tried a UGB version with Veteran Explorer and Lotus Cobra to mana ramp the combo and 4*Seize + 4*Cabal Therapy to protect the combo. The good thing of this version was to be able to play quite often Conflux or even Ultimatum without DH. But I found that I was emptying my hand too fast.

My list was controlish:

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// Lands 19
2 [CST] Island (2)
2 [CST] foret (2)
2 [CST] swamp (2)
3 [ZEN] Fetch UG
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Fetch GB
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [A] Topical Island
1 [A] Bayou

// Creatures 8
4 Veteran Explorer
4 [ZEN] Lotus Cobra

// Combo Package 10
3 [CFX] Conflux
1 [ALA] Cruel Ultimatum
1 [] Echoing Truth
1 [EVE] Nucklavee
4 [SH] Dream Halls

// Disrupt 11
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [] Cabal Therapy
3 [] Pernicious Deed

// Manipulation/Tutors/Piocheurs 12
4 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [BOK] Sensei

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The perfect hand is like this:
Turn 1 Explorer.
Turn 2 Seize + Therapy flashbacked. Play Cobra.
Turn 3 Fetch 7 manas in pool to play whatever you want.

First of fall, I would like to thank the person who wrote this primer for making it thorough and informational. Pros and beginners with hopes of riding this deck towards T8 victories will benefit from reading it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rancorous Fool

I prefer the slightly more compact win condition of:

-1 hellkite
-3 cruel ultimatum

+1 tendrils of agony
+3 Open spots

1 Tendrils is all that is needed.

Dream halls--> conflux 4 times netting force + tendrils + 9 other cards. Play 4 of those 9 other cards. Impulse or Brainstorm into other spells. to pitch to play tendrils.

The one functionality I miss is playing cruel off of dream halls to draw into conflux.

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While I cannot discount the possibility of using Tendrils as a bankable win condition, I must just point out that that build makes it unidirectional in a way that it couldn't win without Dream Halls on the board. I would give Jonas the credit for having the balls to bring this unproven list in a major tourney. The same principle applied by Bant/CounterTop/green aggro players made this deck effective and that is what's called NO package. I call SnT the blue and meaner Natural Order, it costs 1 less colored mana to play, it doesn't need 1 creature, and it only costs a fourth of Natural Order (at least that's how much i got mine :laugh:). SnT package in this deck is very synergistic. Progenitus, a rainbow card that pitches anything to Dream Halls and SnT accels Dream Halls into play turn 1 or simply wins turn 3 by dropping a fatty that doesn't scoop to anything.

Having alternate win cons wins games.

For your interest, the two lists I told you about, are already uploaded:

http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?e...Madrid+/+Spain

I just took home a set of under ground seas and a set of badlands after finishing second this past weekend at Jupiter games. I played a dream halls list that I have been working on for 3 months solid as I was in the hospital for most of that. Here is the list.

4xbrainstorm
4xponder
4xdream halls
3xconflux
3xintuition
2ximpulse
4xshow and tell
4xcruel ultimatum
4xprogenitus
4xforce of will
3xpact of negation
4xlotus petal
3xsimian spirit guide
8xisland
3xancient tomb
3xcity of traitors
s/b.

4xchalice of the void
1xconflux
1ximpulse
1xintuition
3xmisdirection
3xspell pierce
2xhibernation

After my 2nd place performance i will say the deck needs 1 or 2 more islands, and the hibernations and misdirections are going to change to different cards. Brainstorm is good but i think without that many shuffling effects it might be better as serum visions. I know it looks silly having chalice of the void with all of those cantrips, but when i board in the chalice I take all of them out to bring in 4xchalice, 1ximpulse, 1xintuiton, and 1x conflux. I can afford less search if I'm slowing my opponent down considerably. I can say just coming out of the hospital this was my favorite performance of mine as far as my ten plus year magic career goes. actually its like 14 years but who's counting.

p.s. i just want to say that I had a very good time interacting with everybody. I want to apologize for the simian spirit guide win....that was dumb but sometimes that is how magic goes.

I'm very happy to see another viable combo deck being represented. First Enchantress then Dream Halls. The format is getting better every second.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishnabubu

I just took home a set of under ground seas and a set of badlands after finishing second this past weekend at Jupiter games. I played a dream halls list that I have been working on for 3 months solid as I was in the hospital for most of that. Here is the list.

4xbrainstorm
4xponder
4xdream halls
3xconflux
3xintuition
2ximpulse
4xshow and tell
4xcruel ultimatum
4xprogenitus
4xforce of will
3xpact of negation
4xlotus petal
3xsimian spirit guide
8xisland
3xancient tomb
3xcity of traitors
s/b.

4xchalice of the void
1xconflux
1ximpulse
1xintuition
3xmisdirection
3xspell pierce
2xhibernation

After my 2nd place performance i will say the deck needs 1 or 2 more islands, and the hibernations and misdirections are going to change to different cards. Brainstorm is good but i think without that many shuffling effects it might be better as serum visions. I know it looks silly having chalice of the void with all of those cantrips, but when i board in the chalice I take all of them out to bring in 4xchalice, 1ximpulse, 1xintuiton, and 1x conflux. I can afford less search if I'm slowing my opponent down considerably. I can say just coming out of the hospital this was my favorite performance of mine as far as my ten plus year magic career goes. actually its like 14 years but who's counting.

p.s. i just want to say that I had a very good time interacting with everybody. I want to apologize for the simian spirit guide win....that was dumb but sometimes that is how magic goes.

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Congratz on the finish, I'm glad you did well with your list. However, just the thought of not running brainstorm deserves a good smack in the face. Serum Visions? I threw up a little. Run fetchlands, run another color even (black is a great canditate). There is litterally no good reason not to run brainstorm and additional shuffle affects.

maverick, i'm atm trying a four colour version with veteran explorer, academy rector and diabolic intent as a tutor. also play 4 thoughtseize plus 3 cabal therapy as disruption pack, but still haven't reached the optimized configuration.
the combo pieces are 3 conflux, 1 cruel ultimatum, 2 nucklavee and one chain of vapor, though 1 nucklavee is optional sometimes you can hardcast it and gives some c.a.

I will update the main post with the pertinent information, including credit to Marc and his take on Meditate's inclusion. I will also add in the Dream Halls list to the third post (those that finished from Madrid).

Perhaps the best way to start some serious and productive discussion on the deck would be to analyze and compare win condition packages. Which is stronger? Which is faster? Which requires fewer cards? Which is more resilient to disruption? What cards stop certain packages? etc. This would be a good way to more acutely tackle the Dream Halls deck.

Here are the possibilities as I see them:

1. Ultimatum/Hellkite
2. Searing Wind
3. Tendrils of Agony
4. Nucklavee

These are not so much "packages" as they are the key components of the package. Is there any further clarification or preciseness that we can find in regards to win conditions before we actually analyze them?

-ktkenshinx-

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Originally Posted by Fatestitcher

I must just point out that that build makes it unidirectional in a way that it couldn't win without Dream Halls on the board. ...

Having alternate win cons wins games.

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I still play show and tell, as well as 4 progenitus. The alternate win condition is still intact. I'm not sure why you thought I would cut those cards. I simply changed the dream halls kill condition. Cruel Ultimatum, like tendrils, cannot be played without dream halls. The only functionality lost is relying on Conflux post dream halls resolution rather than stalling/ hoping to draw conflux off of cruel.

Don't forget Time Stretch. It allows the deck to scrap Ultimatum altogether and instead pack 4x Progenitus as the win/pitch, which imo is a positive since it is actually droppable off S&T. A singleton Stand/Deliver (or Recoil should one splash Black) can be run to bounce Moat/Humility should you be vary of that G1.

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Originally Posted by Infinitium

Don't forget Time Stretch. It allows the deck to scrap Ultimatum altogether and instead pack 4x Progenitus as the win/pitch, which imo is a positive since it is actually droppable off S&T. A singleton Stand/Deliver (or Recoil should one splash Black) can be run to bounce Moat/Humility should you be vary of that G1.

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I think Time Stretch is actually a pretty good card. When you play Progenitus, Time Stretch basicly means game over. I would still play at least 1 Ultimatum (getting your opponent to discard his whole hand is good after all), but he other 2 spots it takes up can be filled with 1 Time Stretch and 1 card to get rid of nasty things like Moat, Humily, Glacial Chasm and the like. I would actually consider old school Desert Twister for this role, but the fact Vindicate has 2 colors makes it better (easier to fetch with Conflux).

I have also been thinking about Abeyance. When you resolve this, there is nothing your opponent can do. I've been thinking about playing Chant to protect you from countermagic and Grip (you play to combo out the turn you land Dream Halls), but you always were vulnerable against Pridemage. Abeyance actually protects you from both countermagic, and Pridemage activations (or Seal of Cleansing/Primordium and Aura of Silence for that matter).

Maybe splashing white for both Abeyance and Vindicate is a thought to think about for a while.

Ive been thinking about a slot for Abeyance too in place of Cruel ultimatums.

here's my proposed Conflux#1 defensive pile:
:b:: Lim-Dul's vault/Thoughtseize
:u:: Pact of Negation
:r:: Conflux
:g:: Progenitus
:w:: Abeyance

Vindicate may be squeezed in the :b: slot. This list may require to run the ultimatums in the sb or none at all. 2xTime stretch or 2xPandemonium as the kill card.

There is very solid reasoning for not running multicolor. In testing the mono blue build was doing just as good as the other builds at playing around disruption, but not automatically losing to double wasteland draw automatically is a big bonus. I played against fairly heavy counter spell packages in 6 of the 7 rounds in the swiss and 2 of three rounds in the top 8 so my deck obviously can get past disruption. Brainstorm was not as good as ponder for me 80 percent of the time.

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Originally Posted by Atwa

I think Time Stretch is actually a pretty good card. When you play Progenitus, Time Stretch basicly means game over. I would still play at least 1 Ultimatum (getting your opponent to discard his whole hand is good after all), but he other 2 spots it takes up can be filled with 1 Time Stretch and 1 card to get rid of nasty things like Moat, Humily, Glacial Chasm and the like. I would actually consider old school Desert Twister for this role, but the fact Vindicate has 2 colors makes it better (easier to fetch with Conflux).

I have also been thinking about Abeyance. When you resolve this, there is nothing your opponent can do. I've been thinking about playing Chant to protect you from countermagic and Grip (you play to combo out the turn you land Dream Halls), but you always were vulnerable against Pridemage. Abeyance actually protects you from both countermagic, and Pridemage activations (or Seal of Cleansing/Primordium and Aura of Silence for that matter).

Maybe splashing white for both Abeyance and Vindicate is a thought to think about for a while.

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This is true but it is overkill, when u drop progenitus it is pretty much game over. I only had one progenitus killed the entire tournament. and i never lost a race. I also dont like fetches because then I'm open to silly things like stifle and pithing needle to wrecking my mana.

Would Leyline of the Void be a viable Sideboard option? It's useful in quite a few matchups and can be Show and Tell'ed in if necessary.

Yes i think that is definitely one of the cards that is on the radar, definitely a meta-game call.

yes. it is interesting that with FOW you can protect it from their duresses/therapy. Chalice of the Void (1 counter) in the sb may also help, especially against ANT, Ichorid, and Entomb decks. But that's already 8 slots >.<

How about Conflux into:
Sharuum the Hegemon
Sharuum the Hegemon
Disciple of the Vault
Conflux/Progenitus
Conflux/Progenitus

Then Disciple (pitch Conflux), Sharuum (pitch Sharuum). Sharuums create infinite loop of death/resurrection and opponent dies from Disciple. 3 combo slots (instead of 4 Ultimatums), but 1/1 creature is easy to get rid off

The second pile is:
Sharuum the Hegemon
Sharuum the Hegemon
Pandemonium
Conflux/Progenitus
Force of Will/Pact of Negation
Works just like the first one, but you have protection spell and Pandemonium is less vulnerable than Disciple.

The third pile:
Kiki-Kiki, Mirror Breaker
Sky Hussar
Force of Will/Pact of Negation
Conflux/Progenitus
Conflux/Progenitus
This one needs 2 slots for the win, waiting for attack is bad, package includes protection.

And just if you want some classy wins:
Magister Sphinx
Hidetsugu's Second Rite
Conflux/Progenitus
Conflux/Progenitus
Force of Will/Pact of Negation
Sphinx, FINISH HIM!, Hidetsugu's Second Rite, you win, FATALITY :cool:


Oh, and the best Conflux pile ever:
Autochthon Wurm
Nourishing Shoal
Lich
Conflux
Pact of Negation

Okay. This has been debated 1k times on the other thread and it appeared quite clearly that the best package is:
1*Instant U-Bounce (useful pre-DH)
1*Cruel Ultimatum (useful pre-Conflux)
1*Nucklavee (useful in control MU when you have a lot of lands)

All three elements can be resurrected from the yard and it's possible to protect the combo against any (single) graveyard hate.

The Conflux-stacks are simply (Progenitus is not necessary, even if the deck is probably better with it) :
Conflux => Seize + Fow + Ultimatum + Conflux*2
Conflux (pitch Conflux) => Seize + Bounce + Nucklavee + Conflux
Depending on board state/opponent's hand size/your hand :
- Bounce annoying permanent pitching FoW
- Seize (pitch Conflux)
- Ultimatum (depending on the opponent's hand, pitch either Nucklavee or something else)

Then, combo like a champ. Play Nucklavee regrowth Ultimatum and the Bounce. Play Ultimatum, Bounce Nucklavee, play again Nucklavee, and so on.

I don't see a single reason for using another package actually.

I agree with a lot of the stuff Maveric78f says.
- Running 17 land with no Top makes it very difficult to win against MUs that attack your mana base. It makes you too dependent on S&T. Also, Top is really worth it in this deck. It slows down the turn 2-3 goldfish, but it's invaluable against control and discard. I've said this many times before, but it bears repeating; drawing Vault cards with top is really important. going turn 1 top, turn 2 vault for 2 combo pieces, turn 3 win can happen quite often.
- Force is worse than Pact of Negation to protect our combo, but it's desperately needed to shore up our combo matchups since DH is the slowest combo deck, and it provides a generic solution to problematic cards such as Pridemage and Countertop (even though our combo dodges CT, a turn 2 CT turns off too much of our cantrips and gives our opponent inevitability).

There seems to be a lot of misconception about the Progenitus plan. It's not a good plan vs aggro. You're still at a significant risk to lose even with Turn 2 Progenitus on the draw, or Turn 3 on the play. I think getting raced by aggro is a much greater concern than the few decks in the meta that run 2-3 cards to stop progenitus. Other than FoW and Remember, even if your opponent finds a solution to progenitus, you've at least bought yourself a few more turns to play land and dig for the combo. As for MD answers any permanent that stops any of the win conditions, I suggest a single MD Cunning Wish. It's not dead in any match-up; I have Echoing Truth, Dark Ritual, Pact of Negation, and Ravenous trap in my SB. I only run 1 because it's generally too slow for a combo deck, and I can try to Vault for it if i really need it.

Adding other colors for protection is unnecessary. Abeyance seems interesting as it solves Qasali Pridemage, grip, and counters, but getting 5 mana to cast both Abeyance and S&T Dream Halls is too difficult seeing as how Zoo can goldfish you by turn 4, Merfolk and Thresh pack land destruction, and CounterTop will probably have its combo out by then. Enchantment destruction just sets you back a turn, which is only a problem if you're facing lethal. Get Dream Halls into play, without passing priority Conflux into Rit, DH, Conflux, Prog, CU, and go off the next turn.

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Win conditions

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Storm is unnecessary. You have to run 1 All Sun's Dawn, or else you're only left with the Progenitus plan if your opponent discards Tendrils, which is unlikely to happen unless your opponent knows your deck, but why take the risk or run additional dead cards as an answer?. You're also reduced to the Progenitus plan if your opponent has Trinisphere.

Searing Wind/Magister Sphinx is not that great either. Again, both cards are dead pre-combo (Sphinx can be S&T'd in, but it rarely does anything). Again, you have to run an All Sun's Dawn to avoid losing to discard on win conditions.

Is there any good reason why we must try to win the turn we combo off? Going Conflux -> cast CU 2-3 times, followed by a Wish for bounce/GY hate/countermagic, and finally a Progenitus gives us the game against most decks. Unless you see a lot of Enchantress decks that can have both Moat and Elephant Grass in play on turn 3, there's not much else in the field that can stop it. Running 3 CU gives you 7 cards to cast off Dream Halls, which means that most of the time you'll just be Vaulting for Dream Halls exclusively.

If I were to run a dedicated kill package, I'd probably run Nucklavee-CU-Echoing Truth. It's simple and has only 1 possibly dead card (nucklavee).

This is more or less the deck that a few of my friends and I created a few months ago. A couple things like the land count and the win package could be tweaked. It's not perfect, but in terms of speed it goes off turn 3-4 very consistently. It gets fewer turn 2 wins than the German build, but the basics and top help greatly against land destruction strategies, top is huge against discard. In this deck, you only need UU if you hardcast Dream Halls or if you cast 2 other blue spells in the same turn, and you almost never need BB in a single turn. I rarely have to grab Underground Sea. 3 FoW looks odd - I could easily run 3 duress/thoughtseize and 4 FoW. It's just that Force is terrible at protecting the combo since it requires that you have S&T, DH, Conflux, Force, and 2 other colored cards in hand to go off with protection. If you expect lots of CounterTop or Combo, then 4 Force is a must.
I'm going to test running a few Lotus Petal and Ancient Tomb in place of some land and Dark Rituals to open up a few more slots in the MD. I don't like running 4 progenitus because they're dead without S&T, and I've had bad experiences getting raced by Zoo / Goblins when I had turn 3 Progenitus.
I was originally running 1 Pandemonium 1 All Sun's Dawn as kill, but it's generally worse than Cruel Ultimatum or Time Stretch.

2 Progenitus
3 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Dream Halls
4 Conflux
4 Show and Tell
3 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Top
4 Lim Dul's Vault
4 duress/thoughtseize
3 Force of Will
1 Cunning Wish
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Underground Sea
9 Island
5 Swamp

The S/B is largely unsettled, but it looks sometime like this:
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Spell Pierce
2 Echoing Truth
1 Pact of Negation
1 Dark Ritual
3 xxxx (Possibly Innocent Blood to help shore up aggro matchups)