New Competitive Eternal Format Coming

Sorry if this is the wrong forum, but this will most likely cause discussion among the Legacy crowd. I saw this on mtgsalvation:

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First, some background.

The people at WoTC want to support Eternal formats at all levels of competitive play. Unfortunately, the format is simply too expensive for something like a Pro Tour and associated qualifier season to be economically viable. The price of key staples would be even higher they are now if they did this, due to increased demand. And because of the reserve list, they can't simply print more.

So, a new format is coming. It will be released later this year, with high-level events next year and probably a Pro Tour in 2012, assuming the format catches on. Here's how it will work.

1. Normal constructed Magic rules apply. This isn't a special-rules format like EDH or Planechase.
2. All cards printed during Masques block and later blocks, plus associated core sets, are legal (except banned cards, of course).
3. Nothing ever rotates out.

One point of uncertainty. My source says they haven't definitely decided on Masques block as the cutoff yet, but it will be around that time.

With the ability ro reprint staples if necessary, the people at WoTC hope they can make a non-rotating format which is accessible enough to use in a PT and qualifier season.

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What are your thoughts on this?

This is the logical evolution of WotC's business model. Keep making competitive formats that include the latest cards while also giving people access to many of their favorite cards from the past. They'll probably do this repeatedly if Magic remains a successful product.

I would definitely play the format if it came into existence, alongside Legacy.

This would be retarded. No one wants to play Legacy Lite. Just makes ChYOS a sanctioned format.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

This would be retarded. No one wants to play Legacy Lite. Just makes ChYOS a sanctioned format.

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Yep. I agree with this 110%.
Combo seems like it would be extremely degenerate in a format like that without FoW. I guess we'll have to see how it pans out...

Very reliable source for this information.

The entire internet is pointing to the Salvation post, and the OP has a grand total of 1 post.

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EldraziSpy
Just Getting Started

Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1

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Not that anyone is really a credible source on the internet but let's use some common sense here before we get our panties in a knot.

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Originally Posted by DuxDucis

Very reliable source for this information.

The entire internet is pointing to the Salvation post, and the OP has a grand total of 1 post.



Not that anyone is really a credible source on the internet but let's use some common sense here before we get our panties in a knot.

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You may be right, but it's no surprise that the dude has no previous posts: he is presumably violating either an explicit NDA or a general "don't leak this yet" order so it's not remotely a stretch to assume that he just doesn't want to be identified.

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dschalter
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Mar 2010
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Well played. =) /conspiracy off

If created, I'd give another eternal format a shot.




peace,
4eak

Interesting that it may NOT be a Masques cut off. That, I can only guess, is due to debates over including cards like Dark Ritual, Counterspell and Brainstorm, which would definitely be format-defining cards.

@ IBA, one perspective is indeed a "Legacy Lite", but another perspective is Extended-plus ("heavy" sounds stupid :wink:). I guess it would resemble more like current Extended than like Legacy since most of Legacy's defining decks would be gone (no Wasteland, LED, Force of Will, Swords to Plowshares, Lackey, Reanimate/Exhume, et al.). Duals and fetches would still be around, only they'd be Ravinca duals, like in current Extended.

I think CYOS is more difficult to moderate as in making sure that decks are "legal". I'm not arguing it is too difficult, but I can imagine the DCI/Wizards prefers simplicity over complexity, and CYOS is slightly more complex than a format with a general cut off (i.e. Masques on).

I can't go out on a limb and say it's stupid or horrible, because quite honestly, I haven't seriously contemplated what decks would port over or what kind of meta would develop. Also, that cut off line does not equate a cheap format. Tarmogoyf, Wasteland, and Force of Will are three cards they could easily have been kept cheaper (especially the latter two) without any worries of policy violations, but they still haven't bothered. I'm sure this trend of hot cards becoming increasingly expensive and scarce would not end with the introduction of a new format. (Oh God, I'm really not trying to start another price discussion, but if that is one of the reasons for this idea, namely unfettered ability to reprint, they haven't exactly shown a willingness to use that ability they have now.)

Edit: To add to the conspiracy theory: there is every possibility that the "leak" is intentional. Companies and politicians often leak information intentionally so that they can see and gather feedback on a particular idea. This gives them a chance to make appropriate amendments prior to a formal policy declaration.

Edit II: Dammit, this is a duplicate thread. Just saw the other one now. I wasted all that analysis when it has already been said. :frown:

Regarding the source of this info, I was skeptical about the poster at first, but I've noticed on that site that a lot of times a user will show up for the first time and reveal a spoiler or some other piece of news, so I wouldn't completely discredit it.

As for the format, I would be very disappointed with it, as cutting off all cards before Masques block or any block for that matter seems unfair and would not be a real eternal format anyway. I'm guessing it's supposed to be Wizard's response to the recent Reprint List policy, but what about people that want to play with their old cards? Ice Age block and Tempest block were both new and available at one point and in the future, Ravnica and Time Spiral block will eventually be old and hard to get a hold of, so where does it stop when deciding which cards to keep legal? Also, this would just drive up the prices of the new duals and such, not to mention Goyf still being pricey.

Well Dark Ritual would be legal, and so would AdN.. And so would Cabal Ritual.. And Force wouldn't be so yeah. The format looks dumb to me. Whats wrong with Legacy anyhow?

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Whats wrong with Legacy anyhow?

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Price for the most part. I mean being a broke college player I can play one of two good decks: Goblins or Merfolk.

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Originally Posted by PunkRocker1134

Price for the most part. I mean being a broke college player I can play one of two good decks: Goblins or Merfolk.

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That never stopped anyone from playing MWS. Sure real cards are nice. I much prefer doing extensive testing with a deck, like on MWS, before I buy it anyway. By the time you are a good pilot with the deck on MWS, you can likely put aside a little bit of money each week (if you have a job) to buy the deck. I don't know what your financial situation is but $400 in 4 months time seems reasonable. Then you can start winning cards by playing well so that you can make other decks or improve the existing ones. I bought SI 3 years ago for about $150 and used shitty cards like Duress instead of Cabal Therapy until I won enough store credit to buy the rest of the deck. Just be a good pilot and legacy is the format for you.

Why are people acting as though there wouldn't be a banned list? I doubt WoTC is dumb enough to make a new format that will immediately be dominated by degenerate combos (maybe that will be the case in time, but if they do go with this I'm sure they will test the main accelerators quite a bit to see if they should be banned or not).

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2. All cards printed during Masques block and later blocks, plus associated core sets, are legal (except banned cards, of course).

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Well that isn't very specific. So stuff like Skullclamp would be banned but this limited information doesn't necessarily elude to its own list. I'm sure there would be but what would it be? Sure a lot of the cards in ANT would be legal but LED wouldn't be, and neither would Underground Sea so its missing quite a bit. It would be a strong deck but not necessarily the best one.

Either way, it looks like Legacy for people who don't want to play a more skill intensive format. I'll be sticking to Legacy, thanks.

Bs imho. Nothings wrong w Legacy. No deck is dominating the way I can see it.

I suppose this is fake, but hypothetically: legacy was, as far as I can see, created as a cheaper alternative to vintage. Now that Legacy has become so popular, legacy itself has become rather expensive. Creating a cheap alternative to legacy is just running around in circles.

as others have said, this format could be entirely dominated by combo.
Unless, of course, combo is kept in check by bans.

If so, then the format will consist of Goblins (old school, with bidding, perhaps?), Domain zoo, various forms of Blue Goyf and a couple of old favorite control deck re-hashes (wake? Slide?). Expect Rishadan Port to be a gangster and just show up in every deck.

A format like this should probably replace Extended, because that format is going downhill fast, in quality and popularity.

I would play a format like this, though. It would not be my main format, for sure, but I'd definitly try it out.

Just a thing about Combo: if it's from MM and so on, "ANT" would lose these cards:
-Mystical tutor.
-Lion's Eye Diamond.
-Mox Diamond (which should be in the LEDless lists).
-Dual Lands.
-Lotus petal.

I don't know you, but it would be visibly weakened. All the Initial Mana Sources ANT relies on are not avaiable except the shittiest one, Chrome Mox, and good luck if you're trying to replace that with Simian Spirit Guides. Perhaps it could come out like a sort of crappy UBr list with lots of red and black acceleration and Empty the Warrens, but still I don't think it would be overpowered.
Still, since it could go off turn1-2 without FoW being a huge risk, Ad Nauseam will probably be banned.

Pauper Storm comboes at turn 3-4 many times without this cards and only play commons.

ANT must adapt to the new format a little, but believe me. You'll hate it or play it in 1-2 months.

Not sure why you'd play ANT in this format when you could play EntombHulk, which unless I'm missing something obvious don't lose anything (aside from Body Snatcher, but meh). ANT would gain Mind's Desire if you wanted it though.

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

I suppose this is fake, but hypothetically: legacy was, as far as I can see, created as a cheaper alternative to vintage. Now that Legacy has become so popular, legacy itself has become rather expensive. Creating a cheap alternative to legacy is just running around in circles.

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This. One million times over. Just reprint those staples and make money. Don't make people irritated because you create a new "eternal" format every 3 and 4 years while letting the older "eternal" format die. If this is true, it's just retarded.

Uhm, I'm not very excited about this possible new format. I love to play legacy because I get to play the cards I used to play when I started. Legacy to me is fascinating because of Duals, Force, Plow, Sinkhole, Tabernacle, Mox Diamond... and so on. For a coincidence, I stopped playing right during the Masques block, so the new format would have very small appeal to me. As a side note, this will probably mean there will be no more support to legacy, which will likely slowly decline like Vintage did.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix
Whats wrong with Legacy anyhow?

Price for the most part. I mean being a broke college player I can play one of two good decks: Goblins or Merfolk.

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hmm... yeah yeah yeah

Surely WotC is preparing its next marketing bomb by trashing the thriving Legacy community to replace it with a dumb poor post-Masques format.

WotC have no hidden social wealthare agenda. They're in it to make money targeting rich youngsters from upper middle-class who can buy few boxes to get those lovely 4-of Mythics.

But don't worry, they'll keep you in the frame. You're a college student, you'll be a wealthy young professional soon. But they'd rather get you hooked on cracking few packs for draft than any eternal format whatsoever..

WotC make money selling boxes and developping online format, end of

So, uh everyone ready to see all Ad Nauseam top 8's? Well you'd better get ready. If all of this information I see people playing Ad Nauseam all over the place since it and zoo are the only decks that really don't lose too much (I mean top tier decks) and Ad Nauseam owns zoo in the correct hands. Really. Its not even fair. I think the first few months of this format at least are going to be reminiscent of Raffinity in Mirrodin Block. You either play the boogeyman or play to beat the boogeyman.

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Originally Posted by TFD

So, uh everyone ready to see all Ad Nauseam top 8's? Well you'd better get ready. If all of this information I see people playing Ad Nauseam all over the place since it and zoo are the only decks that really don't lose too much (I mean top tier decks) and Ad Nauseam owns zoo in the correct hands. Really. Its not even fair. I think the first few months of this format at least are going to be reminiscent of Raffinity in Mirrodin Block. You either play the boogeyman or play to beat the boogeyman.

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Why do you think Merf won't roll ANT all day instead? Losing FoW sucks, but they have other options and can MD stifle x 4 to fill the void vs combo too.

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Originally Posted by walkerdog

Why do you think Merf won't roll ANT all day instead? Losing FoW sucks, but they have other options and can MD stifle x 4 to fill the void vs combo too.

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Yeah, because as everyone knows, Stifle>Tendrils. Lol.

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Originally Posted by VeniVidiVici

Not sure why you'd play ANT in this format when you could play EntombHulk, which unless I'm missing something obvious don't lose anything (aside from Body Snatcher, but meh). ANT would gain Mind's Desire if you wanted it though.

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.....because Entomb Hulk is a bad deck?

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Originally Posted by Lothian

hmm... yeah yeah yeah

Surely WotC is preparing its next marketing bomb by trashing the thriving Legacy community to replace it with a dumb poor post-Masques format.

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The fact that Legacy has the best community gives us a lot of momentum to pull through the change. Monthly tournaments in Vestal, NY draw regularly 80-90+ people, some of whom drive for 5 hours one way to get there. My local store gets it's largest draw on free Legacy tournaments (we rotate every Sunday, last week's Extended only had 8, Legacy gets over 20 every time). And, of course, GP Madrid had 2200 people. So I don't think this would make a big dent in Legacy numbers. New people can still be drawn in once they get disgruntled with this new format.

In such a format, they would undoubtedly tailor a banlist to the new format. This banlist would mirror the existing Legacy banlist, and would be designed to maximize format health. The following cards would undoubtedly be ported from the preexisting list.

Flash (6th Edition)
Gush (MM)
Mind's Desire (Scourge)
Skullclamp (Darksteel)
Vampiric Tutor (6th Edition)

You will notice that Worldgorger Dragon is not on this list. This combo might absolutely be allowed into the format, given that Animate Dead, Necromancy, and Dance of the Dead are all gone. Off the top of my head, there are no suitable substitutes for these cards in the deck.
Now, in addition to these cards, the following might also have to be banned for the sake of format health.

Aether Vial (just as it is currently banned in Extended)
Disciple of the Vault (would prove to be out of control in an Alara/Mirrodin affinity deck)
Entomb (Just as it was banned in Extended before the rotation)
Ad Nauseum (degenerate combo ala Mind's Desire)

I am likely missing some cards, but this list would ostensibly make for a healthy format. A lot of decks would still exist in one form or the other, and new archetypes would arise or come back from the dead. It would be both an economically sound and a player-oriented format.

One question that people might have regards Dredge/Hulk/Reanimator and other powerful graveyard based decks. Even if Entomb were not banned, and I assure you, it would be, these decks would still be kept in check by the same graveyard hate. Crypt, Relic, Trap, Leyline are all still in this new format. As such, many decks would not have to be totally nerfed or banned into oblivion (read: Dredge). While Wizards might do this, and I hope they do not, it is not a necessary move on their part.

-ktkenshinx-

Counterbalance and Top would still be legal in this format as well as Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist, all these cards are usually much more important than Force to kill Combodecks as they get around Orim's Chant and Duress. Spell Pierce and Dispel would also be still available. In case you are worried about turn 1 combo run Chrome Mox as people did when Flash was Legal with Baseruption.

All this left aside this new format would just circumvent the problem for some years and split up the community again. Don't think it will happen.

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Originally Posted by Shugyosha

Counterbalance and Top would still be legal in this format as well as Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist, all these cards are usually much more important than Force to kill Combodecks as they get around Orim's Chant and Duress. Spell Pierce and Dispel would also be still available. In case you are worried about turn 1 combo run Chrome Mox as people did when Flash was Legal with Baseruption.

All this left aside this new format would just circumvent the problem for some years and split up the community again. Don't think it will happen.

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The one problem is solves is that it can ignore the reserve list and reprint any legal cards for the format. On the other hand, not now, but in 5 or so years, it might kill legacy. :/

On one hand, it's sad that they will probably want to kill legacy just like they killed vintage because their stubborness and lack of common sense.

On the other hand, extended is less popular than legacy, and as long as that's the case, I don't think there's anything to fear for the introduction of a new fo(W-less)rmat.

This is a TERRIBLE idea. I mean, seriously, wtf?

"We made a dumb decision on the reserved list so we're going to make a goofy hybrid extended format that nobody wants or will like."

Just go ahead and implement CYoS already. There's at least a lot of potential and interest in that format. They can start it on MTGO, where enforcement isn't a problem, then see how it does before deciding whether or not to migrate it to paper as a "cheap" alternative to Legacy.

I mean, if MODO isn't there to help them test out new specialty formats, then why do they run other random specialty formats on it?

This idea smacks way, way to much of dumbassery squared with deuchebaggery.

The only thing that makes me wonder about the validity of this is the point of view of Wizards themselves. They have no real good reason to create "Overextended" or whatever it would be called. When extended was created it wasn't exactly popular and now trying to basically recreate it would make it compete against the decently popular Extended and the hugely popular Legacy. It's a formula for instant disaster. It makes no sense even from a marketing view. What would they stand to gain and lose? They stand to lose a lot by alienating people that play in the surrounding formats. They gain...Nothing....a new format that will be played, but barely? This is shooting yourself in the foot only.

"Overextended" would only be a way to get out of the Reserve list lock, but that's the only thing it serves and that's not a good enough reason when there's already ways around their little self imposed chastity belt.

Just do a CYOS format Wizards. Its more challenging, easier to play for the Standard crew and dare I say, more balanced.

This would be the BEST FORMAT EVER if they banned Top and kept Vampiric Tutor legal. That way I could play Netherhaups, which is ... probably the coolest deck of all times.

I actually really like the idea of this format. Counterbalance would totally fucking blow since CCs of cards will be all over the place instead of 2 and under. Decks like: Fires, Combo Elves, Enduring Ideal, TEPS, Goblin Bidding, and others would be very cool to see played and most likely will. Being a combo player, I have no problem if they banned ANT. I really just want to play with Mind's Desire (which is inferior) but still cool.

Hell, we might even see a Counter-Rebel comeback! The only blue-based control deck that is actually interesting!

So to be honest, I didn't read anything past the first five posts in this thread.

That being said, here's why I think this is just a rumor and will not be happening.

Roughly 30% of MTG's revenue comes from MTGO sales. Large portion of this is current set drafting and ticket sales, sure, but there is a growing following of Legacy online. The OP states a proposed format that is essentially Extended-Plus. Anything from Masques onward. Two large problems I see with this new format:

1) Masques isn't even released on MTGO, and not anytime soon will we be seeing Peat Bogs coming online. For a company that is trying to align both paper and online aspects of the game towards a unified play structure, this rumor fails.

2) The price of IPA cards online is redonkulous. Creating this format will achieve the exact opposite of the "no more expensive cards" idea that is being mentioned as a catalyst for the new format. Sure, you won't need dual lands, but what about those Pernicious Deeds, Vindicate, etc.

That being said, I do agree that there needs to be a format that bridges the gap between Legacy and Extended. However, the rumor stated in the OP seems far too farfetched for Wizards to push.

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

we might even see a Counter-Rebel comeback! The only blue-based control deck that is actually interesting!

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There is nothing interesting about the Rebel scum. It's actually more boring to play than Landstill... hey wait a minute... :)

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

This would be the BEST FORMAT EVER if they banned Top and kept Vampiric Tutor legal. That way I could play Netherhaups, which is ... probably the coolest deck of all times.

I actually really like the idea of this format. Counterbalance would totally fucking blow since CCs of cards will be all over the place instead of 2 and under. Decks like: Fires, Combo Elves, Enduring Ideal, TEPS, Goblin Bidding, and others would be very cool to see played and most likely will. Being a combo player, I have no problem if they banned ANT. I really just want to play with Mind's Desire (which is inferior) but still cool.

Hell, we might even see a Counter-Rebel comeback! The only blue-based control deck that is actually interesting!

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Umm... Vamp Tutor wouldn't be in the format... too old.

EDIT

And for those getting nostalgic... old bad (compared to now) decks won't win... You will see: Tendrils combo, counterbalance decks (remember it was dominating Ext two seasons ago, and since we've seen more solid cards, DDT (that may overlap with CB decks), thresh variants (overlap again), zoo, merf, goblins, burn (which is actually solid b/c shocklands <3 burn decks), and probably no stompy, although it could happen, minus cot/at. You might see 1-2 older decks do alright I guess... but I'd hate to have to play with them against the above decks.

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Originally Posted by walkerdog

Umm... Vamp Tutor wouldn't be in the format... too old.

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It was in 6th Edition, which was legal at the same time as Mercadian Masques.

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Originally Posted by majikal

It was in 6th Edition, which was legal at the same time as Mercadian Masques.

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oh! good call then... more likely to be banned than CB though.