Legacy, Summer 2010: Most Bannable Card?

Legacy, Summer 2010: Most Bannable Card in Legacy?
(not that they will touch it)
Part 2

------------------------------------------------

THE QUESTION
What is the MOST bannable card in Legacy?

THE DISCLAIMER
NOT that anything is going to be banned or needs immediate banning

Where is the "Nothing" option?
We are trying to determine what the most likely candidate for banning is. That does not mean the card is getting banned, or that it should ever be banned.

------------------------------------------------

While reading through the "Is Legacy Too Broken" thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?18571-
Is-Legacy-too-broken), I stumbled across a request to recreate the August 25, 2009 poll about the most bannable card in Legacy. Started by Dr. Jones, this thread went on for a whopping 25 pages, and had approximately 200 voters. The original thread can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...te-speculation.

This initial poll, however, is quite outdated. Including such absurd options as Standstill, Phyrexian Dreadnought, and Natural Order, the data here might be considered a bit oudated. Moreover, the metagame has made drastic changes since this early poll. Mystical Tutor was legal. Tarmogoyf-based aggro decks were everywhere. CounterTop midrange decks were consistently taking tournaments. In light of this old 2009 metagame, it is perhaps unsurprising that SDT won out in "most bannable card" with 103 votes. Counterbalance, Goyf, and LED were the next closest contenders, each with 34, 46, and 35 votes respectively.

Things have changed. New fears are on the horizon. New articles have called for card bannings, and various players from the community have spoken out in favor or in opposition of these suggestions. How does that same poll look now, a full year later? Let us find out. This topic deserves a new thread all its own due to recent conversation about the issue. It is a fundamentally different question than the one posted in 2009 (Dr.Jones original thread), and thus it needs its own new home.

I have included these cards on the poll due to their presence in a variety of articles, their recurrence in banning/metagame health threads, and their general tournament prevalence. The candidates are:

Brainstorm: Heavily played card in both combo and many blue decks
Counterbalance: The enabling card of the CounterTop engine.
Force of Will: The glue that holds the format together? Or the wedge that drives it apart?
Lion's Eye Diamond: A flatly unfair piece of combo decks.
Sensei's Divining Top: The other enabler of CounterTop. Also causes time problems in rounds.
Show and Tell: At 3 mana and a blue card, is SnT too much of a danger?
Survival of the Fittest: Making a meteoric rise in recent tournaments. Safe or unsafe?
Tarmogoyf: Magic's most efficient beater. The old question stands: is he TOO efficient?
Tendrils of Agony: The core of all good, modern combo decks.
Wasteland: An overperforming, hyper-versatile bullet.

Some cards did not make the cut.

Imperial Recruiter: Prohibitively expensive. Does not always post consistently broken results, even though its home deck is quite solid.
Entomb: Reanimator has been weakened, but not crippled, by Mystical Tutor. GY hate is easily sideboarded, and the deck itself has not been performing too well recently.
Life from the Loam: Lands and Aggro Loam are solid decks, but not broken ones. This engine is never too unfair, and enables 2 interesting strategies for the format.
Dark Ritual: It's too easy to list all the combo cards on the above poll. I chose the biggest culprits, not the small (albeit critical) engine components.
Wild Nacatl: Ari Lax suggested it. It was a dumb suggestion, and it has not been backed up by recent tournament performances.
Ad Nauseam: A powerful engine, but really not the big problem with Storm. Tendrils is obviously a bigger problem, and LED is obviously more consistently broken.

So those are the cards in questions. Feel free to post your rankings, your justifications, and your discussions alongside your poll.

-ktkenshinx-

I voted for Brainstorm. I do not believe that it a card that will be banned. I would much rather see fetchlands get banned than anything on this list. I own them, they benefit every deck I play, but I would love to see the design space that would open up if fetchlands were banned (and which decks would suffer). Without a doubt, fetchlands slow down play pretty dramatically. Anyway, I feel like brainstorm is the most likely candidate to get the axe, and that it is unlikely to get it anytime soon.

Most likely card to get banned is LED because wotc hates combo. Second most bannable card is brainstorm, because all blue decks play brainstorm as a 4 of automatically sans the new UG madness survival deck which is arguably more green than blue because it runs survival which you absolutely need green mana for to consistently abuse the card. Brainstorm also helps combo for obvious reasons.

Counterbalance is not broken enough to get the axe and neither is sensei's top. The "slow down rounds" argument is bullshit in legacy because the format is blazingly fast with cards like goyf, steppe lynx, wild nacatl, and terravore being able to kill an opponent in under 5 turns when backed up with burn, their own countertop lock, or other creatures that can also beat down. And when combo decks are played the round is typically short due to combo decks usually winning by turn 5 or simply losing to the opposing deck.

Show and tell is not broken enough to warrant banning. 2 card combos such as SnT + emrakul win you the game sure but so does painter's servant + grindstone and that isn't dominating in any way. And they are also answerable with oblivion ring, karakas, or just killing the opponent afterwards with burn or creature beatdown.

Survival of the fittest is a really good card but I doubt it will get banned. People should realize that it is easily answerable by many cards in the format such as meddling mage, pithing needle, k grip, EXTIRPATE, faerie macabre, or crypt/relic. Any GY hate actually. Also qasali pridemage really hurts survival. The card is safe.

Tarmogoyf will never get the banhammer despite me wishing for it endlessly in the middle of the night. He partially holds combo in check with his power getting in two swings makes ad nauseam a lot worse typically. He is a vanilla creature that is efficient true but he isn't TOO efficient.

Tendrils of Agony the card isn't the problem the enablers are such as LED, dark ritual, and other cards. Banning tendrils would be quite stupid and wotc knows this so they won't ban it.

Wasteland is safe. Sure the game would be "more fun" without it since people hate getting land hosed but it wouldn't be healthy for the format to lose something so format defining. It also hates on combo so that is a valid reason to keep it in.

Where is the 'None' option? None of those cards need banning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AngryTroll

Where is the 'None' option? None of those cards need banning.

---

Incorrect, sir! Vengevine Survival made up 25% of the top 16 of the latest 5k! It is too dominant!

Mystical Tutor banned and the format is still heavily blue?

Ponder and Preordain are pretty good cantrips?

Discard is underperforming since 199x?

Get my vote, BRAINSTORM!

I voted for Top. With Counterbalance in play, it forms a soft-lock that is very unfun. Unfun as it is, though, it is not unstoppable. On the other hand, Sensei's Divining Top is very inconvenient to play against in tournaments where rounds are timed. But my primary reason for voting Top is that fact that it's so ubiquitous as a card. I feel it is too efficient at what it does for its cost. Furthermore, its invulnerability to generic artifact removal doesn't help either. I like library-manipulation cards though, but only if they are niche cards that find their home in specific decks. One example is Mirri's Guile which finds a comfortable home in Enchantress.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AngryTroll

Where is the 'None' option? None of those cards need banning.

---

I too do not think that any of the cards need banning. The question is, however, which is MOST bannable, with the added qualification of "NOT that they will touch it".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

Most likely card to get banned is LED because wotc hates combo. Second most bannable card is brainstorm, because all blue decks play brainstorm as a 4 of automatically sans the new UG madness survival deck which is arguably more green than blue because it runs survival which you absolutely need green mana for to consistently abuse the card. Brainstorm also helps combo for obvious reasons.

---

I also voted for LED, although the card is really quite safe. Recent T8s are tending heavily away from Storm combo, and even non T8 players seem to be avoiding the archetype. That said, Wizards really hates combo, especially any combo that can be deemed "non-interactive". I can already see the idiotic justification posted on some Friday in the future:

"LED looks just like Black Lotus! It turns out that the "drawback" isn't even a drawback in the right decks! Combo is b0nkerz!"

Whatever. Hopefully Wizards can actually do some data analysis and Legacy player consultation about bannings in the next year instead of wildly speculating about card prevalence and power. Indeed, I was hesitant to make a thread like this, lest Wizards decide that this is the go-to place for information and not read the multiple disclaimers about what we are actually voting on.

-ktkenshinx-

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

Most likely card to get banned is LED because wotc hates combo.

---

This, though I think banning anything from the list is unnecessary.

Quote:

---

Incorrect, sir! Vengevine Survival made up 25% of the top 16 of the latest 5k! It is too dominant!

---

True dat!!! BAN BASKING ROOTWALLAS!

I voted for Sea Troll because its obviously the worst troll ever, so definitely the most bannable.

The whole 'round time' argument, is, in my opinion, a ton of bullshit. The format is a fast one; what with combo decks, Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk...the control decks will be just as slow without Sensei's Divining Top. Top enables an archetype, helps to keep combo going, and can be used as a streamliner in virtually any deck. Leave SDT alone.

Tarmogoyf, although he is powerful, IS just a vanilla creature. Perhaps some sort of reprint might be nice in order to drop his value(not sure how they could do this without angering people though; maybe in an FTV set), but he doesn't need a ban.


Tendrils of Agony - although Storm decks ultimately rely on this card, it really isn't the issue. Sure, Storm was a retarded mechanic, but since it's here, lets not half the power of combo. Again. Banning an enabler might be a better choice.

Wasteland is completely safe. It helps slow down combo decks(which Wizards seems to love doing), it punishes greedy decks for being greedy(no 5CC in this format, thank you very much), and can easily be played around by fetching basics, or just playing basics. If Wasteland is too big of an issue, the issue isn't the card - its the people who have to have their dual lands.

Counterbalance is a tricky one. The ability is fine by itself, but with Sensei's Divining Top it becomes a pain; virtually the only good way to deal with it is through Krosan Grip in response to them finishing up with Sensei's Divining Top at the end of their turn(they will have put what they want to draw on the top of their deck, instead of leaving the three there for the blind flip @ Grip).

Survival is easily hated out, and if the Vengevine strategy is too much, just play gravehate. Don't worry about Survival.

Show and Tell isn't busted; or anywhere near it. Like the guy above - Painter/Stone is a two card combo as well, and also happens to be one that doesn't need a turn to finish you off with. Painter/Stone can play Painter, Grindstone, and Activate in the same turn. Show and Tell into Emrakul needs a turn before Emrakul can attack. Also answerable with Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edict, Karakas, Oblivion Ring, Maranga, etc. It's fine.

Now to the bannables - Brainstorm streamlines and cantrips for combo decks, and is played in virtually every deck that plays blue. I don't really have an issue with the card, but it is bannable because of its extreme utility value.

Lion's Eye Diamond - Huge enabler for storm decks. LED + Infernal Tutor is one of the cornerstones of Storm decks, and the deck needs the additional mana from LED more often than not. The deck could function with Lion's Eye Diamond, but it would be incredibly difficult, and would become slower(which, in my opinion, is healthier - Turn 1-2 kills aren't fun at all). However, the deck can goldfish to that same turn number just as easily, and can still do Doomsday stuff, and can still win through Ad Nauseam. This would have been a better choice for banning than Mystical Tutor(although Tutor had other problems, and probably needed to go as well).

If any of these cards will end up banned, it will be Lion's Eye Diamond. They'll probably offer us a five paragraph long explanation about how broken Black Lotus is and how similar LED is to that card.

Can you explain why Natural Order was an absurd option? The 'tinker' version of legacy is allways dangerous. Brings one of the greatests creatures (Maybe now is better Emrakul) but still.

Anyways my vote goes for sensei's divining top, as allways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ktkenshinx

Whatever. Hopefully Wizards can actually do some data analysis and Legacy player consultation about bannings in the next year instead of wildly speculating about card prevalence and power. Indeed, I was hesitant to make a thread like this, lest Wizards decide that this is the go-to place for information and not read the multiple disclaimers about what we are actually voting on.

-ktkenshinx-

---

Unfortunately, WotC seems quite content make up facts about players and use the worst possible methods in order to arrive at a pre-determined conclusion. Player consultation would be nothing more than PR lip service(remember the 'consultation' about the Reserved List? Went reaaaaaaaaaal well didn't it?)

That said, I voted for CBalance for the same reason, I presume, peopled voted for LED(don't like seeing it hit play).

Can't be LED or SDT on power levels because neither of those cards is a dominant card in the current meta. If CounterTop was doing better lately you could argue SDT, but it's not. If SDT was penetrating more winning lists than just CounterTop you could also make an argument, but really it's not other than the odd Doomsday list. LED shows up in what, 10% of winning decks? Less?

If you buy the argument that Force of Will holds the format together then it can't be Force of Will, despite the fact that Force of Will shows up in a large minority, if not actual majority, of winning decks. If you also buy the argument that Force of Will is the best card in the format and makes blue dominant that leaves you in a quandary as to what to ban to bring it and blue down some. I think Brainstorm, which is clearly one of the 5 best cards in the format and almost always present beside Force of Will, is the logical choice. There are plenty of less abusive methods for blue to filter cards at this point, many of which would be snapped up by other colors if they were available. Banning Brainstorm would re-level the format without exposing it to combo winter or aggro summer or any of the other possibilities that people like to bring up when cards like Force of Will and LED are in the ban discussion.

Imho, it has no sense to ban something now. If had to ban only limited on columbus, i'd ban something to stop the blue dominance, namely Brainstorm or Tendril. Countertop is stupid and boring, but has a tendency on pushing mid-range strat, a thing that i consider positive, even if said mid-range strat are totally hosed by any kind of combo. So... meh, i dunno. If i have to guess, the most likely card to be banned now is Tendril, for many reasons. It pushes blue and punish mid-range decks and non-blue strat. Also, people would probably take better a ban on it than a ban on good old favorite Brainstorm.
Also, it is the main culprit in storm, and if this isn't banned now, it's pretty likely that in due time something else will be banned to "slow" combo like LED since any big presence of combo in a meta isn't considered good by WotC (and by me, if said combo is tendril-storm zzz). And i'd prefer to keep LED or ritual (and brainstorm for that part) in the format more than Tendril for sure.

I voted for Show and Tell. When the next collection be printed, we will always look for that 25 mana 40/40 Flying Protection from Kors and Fungus guy made for 8 years old boys and think "How we can cheat with this?".

But I fear Natural Order even more than SnT. Not only because with this you don't need to have the evil monster in your hand or because you just need run one copy of the creature. I fear it because all you need is a fetchland or a Tarmogoyf, aka "Playing Magic the Gathering".

Looking at some recent tournament results, I would rather have banned Aether Vial. Goblins and Merfolk run rampant these days. And cheating into play the majority of nonland cards in one's deck seems pretty overpowered.

That being said, I picked Top simply because of the impact it has on round time limits. Besides, combo already took a beating from Mystical Tutor, let's hurt a different deck for a change. Oh, and banning Brainstorm just ruins the format.

Honestly if I had to choose something... SnT. Nothing should really be banned, but SnT-->Emrakul/Prog is just stupid. Everybody and his mom can do it and it wins the game on its own. Its idiot proof.. and nobody but idiots like idiot proof combos.

EDIT:
Storm combo would still be good without LED, especially since everyone would expect it to die. QSI is competitive LED-less storm combo, though most people just opt to play TES because its easier and you don't have to deal with blind draw4's.

Top and LED are the most bannable cards for sure, but I personally wouldn't be sad to see Survival go since I find the combo with Vengevine too obnoxious and idiot-proof.

I don't think any of them are actually ban worthy.

I voted for SDT simply because it helps dumb people stall out games to time. I guess that could make them smart depending on how you look at it I guess, but you know what I mean.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kikoo

I personally wouldn't be sad to see Survival go since I find the combo with Vengevine too obnoxious and idiot-proof.

---

Yeah, but still fair. Show and Tell is like Flash with Sumonning Sickness.

Show and Tell gets my vote. It's the closest thing to Flash in the current metagame. Still 2 turns slower and not worth of a ban, but any combo component that gets along with force of will to win the game is the de facto number 1 in my book.

I voted Survival for a couple reasons. First off I know it shouldn't be banned, because it is easily hated with common board cards, and it is the flavor of the month this August. Unfortunately it is the flavor of the month this August and the people making decisions may have been overlooking a lot into the Minneapolis 5K to see the health of the format.However I think the worst thing it has going against it is it is a recurring tutor. And we all know how much the decision makers frown on efficient tutors.

Can we maybe add a "Nothing" option because, you know, perhaps nothing needs to be banned?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Can we maybe add "Nothing" option because, you know, perhaps nothing needs to be banned?

---

The question is not "what needs banning." The question, quite clearly, is "What is the most bannable card in Legacy" with the added disclaimer "NOT that Wizards is going to ban anything." Because that is the question, "nothing" is not a valid candidate. If the option were between Monk Realist and War Priest of Thune, the latter would be more bannable, even though neither deserves banning. I have edited the first post to clearly show the question and that "nothing" is really not an option.

I am surprised that SDT is the number one contender for most bannable card in Legacy. CounterTop has been underperforming recently, which might admittedly have something to do with combo's fall after Tutor's banning; this was a solid matchup in the past. This just serves as a testament to one criteria that players are probably using in their votes: annoyance factor. SDT is just an obnoxious card to play against. It takes a lot of time, enables stupid plays, and has a game-stopping synergy. It is also interesting that people find this control card less interactive than LED/Tendrils, a more proactive non-interactive Magic situation (combo).

-ktkenshinx-

Show and Tell gets my vote. As long as WotC keeps printing bigger and better fatties, this card is dangerous.

edit: Not that I think anything needs to be done at the moment, but this one has the most potential to become broken.

Survival of the Fittest does not need to be banned. While it is a very strong engine, it is by no means dominant. The thing with UG Madness is that it's the flavor of the month. Certainly it made up 25% of the top 16 at Minneapolis, but I'm certain that the deck was extremely overrepresented due to the level of coverage it got during GP: Columbus and the fact that most of the cards in it are pretty cheap. I would even be willing to bet that it was the most-played deck. Give it a couple of months and it will die down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc

Mystical Tutor banned and the format is still heavily blue?

Ponder and Preordain are pretty good cantrips?

Discard is underperforming since 199x?

Get my vote, BRAINSTORM!

---

+1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ktkenshinx

The question is not "what needs banning." The question, quite clearly, is "What is the most bannable card in Legacy" with the added disclaimer "NOT that Wizards is going to ban anything." Because that is the question, "nothing" is not a valid candidate. If the option were between Monk Realist and War Priest of Thune, the latter would be more bannable, even though neither deserves banning. I have edited the first post to clearly show the question and that "nothing" is really not an option.

I am surprised that SDT is the number one contender for most bannable card in Legacy. CounterTop has been underperforming recently, which might admittedly have something to do with combo's fall after Tutor's banning; this was a solid matchup in the past. This just serves as a testament to one criteria that players are probably using in their votes: annoyance factor. SDT is just an obnoxious card to play against. It takes a lot of time, enables stupid plays, and has a game-stopping synergy. It is also interesting that people find this control card less interactive than LED/Tendrils, a more proactive non-interactive Magic situation (combo).

-ktkenshinx-

---

Fair enough. I voted for Tarmogoyf because I want to play Grizzly Bears, and Striped Bears!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Yeah, but still fair. Show and Tell is like Flash with Sumonning Sickness.

---

I don't really think it's that fair. Before Vengevine was printed you would be in a pretty bad spot if you were facing down a resolved Survival, but you would still have a fighting chance. If Survival resolves nowadays, all counterspells you might draw afterwards automatically become blanks and most decks basically just lose the game in 0-2 turns to the uncounterable flying haste attack. Graveyard hate is just a minor speed bump for the deck and is easy to play around. Extirpate works, but that's not a card you're terribly excited to play and it doesn't stop them from just tutoring for their best creatures. Sure, Krosan Grip takes care of the enchantment, but that's a 3cc answer to a 2cc card that does nothing when you're on the draw and your opponent goes turn 1 Hierarch + turn 2 Survival.

Now it's not just an insane card advantage engine/infinite Eladamri's Call, it's basically "1G: You win", which is just stupid.

I'd like to see how many UG Madness decks there were at the 5k, but 5 copies of the deck in top 16 seems like a lot in any case.


Show and Tell isn't broken in my opinion. There are just way too many answers (even maindeck) to Emrakul and he's really the only exciting thing to dump into play. The answers include all of the Diabolic Edict-ish spells, Knight of the Reliquary (Karakas), Humility, Oblivion Ring, Stingscourger, Sower of Temptation and so on... And let's not forget that Show and Tell allows you to put any of these cards into play for free. Also, the Survival decks have a powerful backup plan if their "combo piece" is dealt with, the Show and Tell decks do not.

The sky isn't falling (yet!), but it seems like Survival pilots are having a disturbingly easy time x-0'ing whatever tournament they play in (atleast that's is my general impression from reading the various SotF threads), but then again, if more people played 4c Allies there wouldn't be a problem!

/rant

If I could vote by not voting (N/A), I would do that.

As I see it, all of those cards help make Legacy what it is -- which I find to be a very fun and balanced format.

Zapping any of those cards would harm an otherwise perfectly fine format.

I love how every time a deck does marginally well at a single tournament, everyone flips the fuck out and starts waving the banhammer around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by majikal

I love how every time a deck does marginally well at a single tournament, everyone flips the fuck out and starts waving the banhammer around.

---

Exactly. I honestly don't give a damn what today's latest and greatest card is. The important thing is to ensure that a card does not become too entrenched in legacy to the point of becoming unplayable.

This is for most bannable card after all. I'm still expecting a big
Standard Extended Legacy Vintage
No Changes

I think none of these cards are bannable. Counterbalance and Top are just boring, so if I had to say something it is Top.
Rather ban Vengevine than Survival which is core of many reliable not too powerful decks.

I personally would ban too hard to get and expensive Portal cards like Loyal Retainers.

I wouldn't ban anything...but if I had too it would be brainstorm. It's the strongest card in legacy and an enabler for top, led, and snt which are the top 3 on the poll...it's also been played in tier 1 decks alongside all of the other cards on the poll.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Incorrect, sir! Vengevine Survival made up 25% of the top 16 of the latest 5k! It is too dominant!

---

Well I think it's really just because the deck i so "new" and "innovative" and not because it's power.also, it's a blast to play.
But in a few weeks, players will get used to VV- Survival and start to caope with it. Less T16's then, i guess.

Just for this list, they could print a 1CC Instant that searched for three cards, put them into your hand, left off the "shuffle your library afterwards" clause so you could set the deck any way you wanted to, had the relentless rats ability of having more than four copies in a deck, and also made the opposing player give you his car/hot girlfriend, and I'd -still- pick Lion's Eye Diamond here. I've been in favor of banning this and only this for the last several years.

That said, Sensei's Divining Top is also very close in my book and would also make a solid ban.

Everything else on that list should absolutely stay under all circumstances.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ktkenshinx

I am surprised that SDT is the number one contender for most bannable card in Legacy. CounterTop has been underperforming recently, which might admittedly have something to do with combo's fall after Tutor's banning; this was a solid matchup in the past. This just serves as a testament to one criteria that players are probably using in their votes: annoyance factor. SDT is just an obnoxious card to play against. It takes a lot of time, enables stupid plays, and has a game-stopping synergy. It is also interesting that people find this control card less interactive than LED/Tendrils, a more proactive non-interactive Magic situation (combo).

-ktkenshinx-

---

Clearly this. Nothing on the list is ban worthy. But SDT is by far the most irritating and un-fun to play against. The time factor of SDT is also another pretty big issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorpT

Clearly this. Nothing on the list is ban worthy. But SDT is by far the most irritating and un-fun to play against. The time factor of SDT is also another pretty big issue.

---

It's also present in quite a few combo decks. Just saying.