Infinate Persist

Was looking over the results of the LCL in Barcelona and noticed this spicy deck in the Top 8...

Infinate Persist by Carlos Minon Moreno

Creatures
4x Safehold Elite
4x Melira, Sylvok outcast
4x Kitchen Finks
4x Carrion Feeder
4x Bird of Paradise
1x Wilt-Leaf Leige
1x Viscera Seer
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Scarland Thrinax
1x Rendclaw trow
1x Eternal Witness

Sorceries
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize

Enchantment
1x Goblin Bombardment

Artifact
2x Altar of Demencia

Lands
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Misty Rainforest
3x Bayou
1x Taiga
3x Swamp
4x Forest
1x Dryad Arbor


SB
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
1x Terestodon
3x Beast Within
2x Surgical extraction
2x Krosan Grip
2x Nihil Spellbomb

Looking it over, I think with some fine tuning this deck could be something special...What do you think guys?
I think this deck doed have alot of potential, in the correct metagame it can be quite the unexspected deck to play against.

This deck crushed me on MWS 2 minutes ago. If only I had managed to do something more powerful than City-PImp->Discard darkblast->breakthrough->dredge 3 draw 3-> dredge 3-> repeat...


In short, this deck is ok and so on, but I don't think it is viable...yet.

I think the deck has something going for it. But some of the card choice are just aweful. Almost looks if it was built kind of on a budget. Viscera Seer, Scarland Thrinax, and Rendclaw trow should all be cut. Upping the deck to 4 Goyf and going down to 1 Carrion Feeder. The deck almost wants Fauna Shaman in there which it very possible. Also not sure why Cabal Therapy isn't being used over Inquisition of Kozilek.

The only other thing the deck needs is a way to find one of the infinite win cons.

I definitely think that rendclaw troll and viscera seer can be cut. I think cabal therapy is good enough. The main card this deck is missing is bob! where is that card drawing machine? I think that red can be cut, it is nice to have scarland thrinax to be able to searched for with green sun's zenith but meh... Also goblin bombardment could easily be altar of dementia. I could see playing imperial recruiter maybe in this deck as well (although they cost a fortune)

Wouldn't Diabolic Intent kinda work here?

I also like the idea of running Bob.

Why scarland thrinax over nantuko husk?

@Perm...you are able to GSZ for it...

Really cool.

Apart from 8 discard (which is kind-of increased to 12 if flashing back therapy) there is no disruption and nothing to stop them countering your creatures. Perhaps look at something like Gaea's herald or Xantid Swarm? They're both GSZ tutorable. Your creatures are important in this deck. Perhaps a few Unearth as currently it returns EVERY creature, apart from Wilt-leaf, for 1 mana! It also makes persist creatures pretty scary.

My proposal, from the original list, would be:

-4 Inquisition
-1 Viscera Seer
-1 Tarmogoyf
-1 wilt-leaf liege
-1 Birds of Paradise

+4 Cabal Therapy
+2 Dark Confidant
+2 unearth

I don't see the point of having one Viscera Seer as it isn't searchable, and you are unlikely to have him in your opening 7, so the 1 mana cost seems irrelevant. As this deck has no instants, few sorceries, no planeswalkers and creatures that return, Goyf seems like he will be reliant on their deck to be big.

Bob draws cards in a low mana cost deck like this, without causing too much damage. Otherwise, I think it's an awesome little list.

For the sideboard, I would have:

+4 Gaea's Herald

Also, perhaps something to note, if you are looking for Melira, you can sac a creature to Altar yourself, and then unearth or eternal witness her back.


Just my 2 cents...

I think you definitely want Cabal Therapy over either Inquisition or Thoughtseize in here. I think the main question to ask is do you want to take this deck in an all combo direction with lots of tutors - diabolic intent, zenith, summoner's pact, living wish, maybe NO/Pro as well, or do you want to go in an aggro/combo direction with a few combo outs like goblin bombardment or carrion feeder/rite of consumption/fling, and if you do that, do you also include devoted druid and quillspike, or do you go in a general rockish midrange direction with the combo as just a minor part of the plan.

I'm just asking because if you want to go aggro/combo, then it might be worth looking at white for stoneforge mystic and equipments plus swords to plowshares, or if you go that route and stay in red, then maybe you should add some lightning bolts to the deck. If you go a more rocking route then maybe you want to look at including destructive flow as a method of disruption?

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

I'm just asking because if you want to go aggro/combo, then it might be worth looking at white for stoneforge mystic and equipments plus swords to plowshares, or if you go that route and stay in red, then maybe you should add some lightning bolts to the deck. If you go a more rocking route then maybe you want to look at including destructive flow as a method of disruption?

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White would provide E Tutor to find Altar. Phyrexian Unlife would also go well with Melira, although not having that "win now" factor.

As for removal, Maelstrom Pulse doesn't seem to bad here. Flexible, can't be countered by MM and you don't run the common creatures you would normally target with it.

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

I think you definitely want Cabal Therapy over either Inquisition or Thoughtseize in here. I think the main question to ask is do you want to take this deck in an all combo direction with lots of tutors - diabolic intent, zenith, summoner's pact, living wish, maybe NO/Pro as well, or do you want to go in an aggro/combo direction with a few combo outs like goblin bombardment or carrion feeder/rite of consumption/fling, and if you do that, do you also include devoted druid and quillspike, or do you go in a general rockish midrange direction with the combo as just a minor part of the plan.

I'm just asking because if you want to go aggro/combo, then it might be worth looking at white for stoneforge mystic and equipments plus swords to plowshares, or if you go that route and stay in red, then maybe you should add some lightning bolts to the deck. If you go a more rocking route then maybe you want to look at including destructive flow as a method of disruption?

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I was thinking along the same lines. Since Goblin Bombardement is the "key" combo and G is needed as well it should at minimum be GR. Then either W (StoP and good creatures like Mother, Pridemage, Gaddock ... see GW Aggro) or B (Creatures with sac effect, Discard) could be added. I would not favor a 4 color build. The sweeper combo Enchanted Evening + Patrichian's Scorn probably is too much casual.

I think defining a core would be helpful:

4 Safehold Elite
4 Melira, Sylvok outcast
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
4 Green Sun's Zenith

8 Disruption
7 Win Conditions
10 Open Slots

7 Fetches
4 Dual Lands
7 Basics
1x Dryad Arbor

A list of win conditions:
Altar of dementia
Blasting Station (I think this works)
Goblin Bombardment
Carrion Feeder
Nantuko Husk/Phyrexian Ghoul/Scarland Thrinax/Bloodthrone Vampire
Spawning Pit (sort of)


I think Oran Reef, The Vastwood should be a two of in this deck. It keeps persist guys alive indefinitely as blockers. The Open Slots consideration for open slots I think are BOB BOP Goyf and one ofs for searching with GSZ.

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Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know

I think defining a core would be helpful:

4 Safehold Elite
4 Melira, Sylvok outcast
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
4 Green Sun's Zenith

8 Disruption
7 Win Conditions
10 Open Slots

7 Fetches
4 Dual Lands
7 Basics
1x Dryad Arbor

A list of win conditions:
Altar of dementia
Blasting Station (I think this works)
Goblin Bombardment
Carrion Feeder
Nantuko Husk/Phyrexian Ghoul/Scarland Thrinax/Bloodthrone Vampire
Spawning Pit (sort of)


I think Oran Reef, The Vastwood should be a two of in this deck. It keeps persist guys alive indefinitely as blockers. The Open Slots consideration for open slots I think are BOB BOP Goyf and one ofs for searching with GSZ.

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Glistening Oil seems ridiculous with Melira. Melira says "creatures your OPPONENTS control lose Infect." Also, I'd recommend Greeater Good as a possibility.

It seems like protecting Melira is vital for this combo. Could Sylvan Safekeeper be included to do so?

G/U/w ???

Fortunately none of the creatures seem very color intensive

Daze
Mental Mistep
Brainstorm

Noble Heirarch

Swords to Plowshare
Enlightened Tutor

Karakas

My 2-cents

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Originally Posted by rukcus

It seems like protecting Melira is vital for this combo. Could Sylvan Safekeeper be included to do so?

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It is.

I feel that in order to really be competitive, a deck like this would need to be able to go aggro as a backup. Is that possible?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zork

It is.

I feel that in order to really be competitive, a deck like this would need to be able to go aggro as a backup. Is that possible?

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Exalted creatures (Pridemage, Noble) would certainly serve this purpose. Although Pridemage would more or less require the white splash.

Other than that, there's always Tarmogoyf, especially with GSZ.

You don't want to go 4 color. White doesn't really give the deck anything. Black pretty much covers anything you want white for here.

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Other than that, there's always Tarmogoyf, especially with GSZ.

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The deck needs 4 Goyf as the back up plan. There is too much removal in this format to only play one.

Quote:

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I feel that in order to really be competitive, a deck like this would need to be able to go aggro as a backup. Is that possible?

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There is that and the SB does have NO into Progs. I think the deck could get away with also playing Woodfall Primus as a NO target as well.

What the deck needs is more search and/or draw. If the deck doesn't find Melira, then the plan goes out the window. Fauna Shaman or Diabolic Intent should be looked at as more ways to find her or other missing pcs. This is a 3 card combo deck no matter what way you go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brushwagg

You don't want to go 4 color. White doesn't really give the deck anything. Black pretty much covers anything you want white for here.



The deck needs 4 Goyf as the back up plan. There is too much removal in this format to only play one.



There is that and the SB does have NO into Progs. I think the deck could get away with also playing Woodfall Primus as a NO target as well.

What the deck needs is more search and/or draw. If the deck doesn't find Melira, then the plan goes out the window. Fauna Shaman or Diabolic Intent should be looked at as more ways to find her or other missing pcs. This is a 3 card combo deck no matter what way you go.

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Could Lightning Greaves or Darksteel plate have a home here? Greaves makes your Melira immune to all removal, and plate allows Melire to go into the Red Zone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brushwagg

There is that and the SB does have NO into Progs. I think the deck could get away with also playing Woodfall Primus as a NO target as well.

What the deck needs is more search and/or draw. If the deck doesn't find Melira, then the plan goes out the window. Fauna Shaman or Diabolic Intent should be looked at as more ways to find her or other missing pcs. This is a 3 card combo deck no matter what way you go.

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This. And Murderous Redcap, or Glen Elendra Archmage (extra protection fro Melira).

Melira + Murderous Redcap (killing itself) + Essence Warden --> infinite life.
Melira + Murderous Redcap + Carrion Feeder --> infinite damage.
Melira + Murderous Redcap + Goblin Bombardment --> ends the game 3x faster on Magic Online ;) (if your opponent didn't concede first)

Yeah, it's still a 3-card combo.... Buried Alive + Victimize? Shoots, that's only two creatures. Oh well. Perhaps Survival of the Fittest?

4x Safehold Elite
4x Melira, Sylvok outcast
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Bird of Paradise
4x Dark Confidant
1x Tarmogoyf

1x Recurring Nightmare

4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize

4x Carrion Feeder
1x Scarland Thrinax
3x Altar of Dementia

4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Misty Rainforest
3x Bayou
1x Taiga
3x Swamp
4x Forest
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Oran Reef, the Vastwood


I tested this against team america and went 2-2, should of have been 1-3, but ripped melira the turn before I would have lost. The main thing I think I would change is that I would Take out the discard spells. Against decks that play mental missteps, they get countered with tempo loss. I was thinking playing 4 Hymn. 3 Go For the Throat 1 Birds of Paradise. The beatdown plan is obsolete against decks with creatures because there is no removal to get rid of the creatures that are bigger than yours. I think the Go for the throats will be helpful. There isnt much one drops then...

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Oh well. Perhaps Survival of the Fittest?

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That's why I was thinking Fauna Shaman. You need it active for a turn to find a missing creature.

There is also Tortured Existence and Fecundity. Not sure Fecundity makes the cut but you do draw your deck to find a win con.

I think the deck really want's to go gwb, but I don't think toughing red or blue would hurt too much if you decided to do it either. I think it's also criminal that no one has talked about Birthing Pod in this deck yet either. The tentative list I would run:

Creatures
4x Birds of Paradise (or Noble Hierarch, depends how much you want exalted vs. black mana)
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
4x Kitchen Finks
4x Safehold Elite
1x Murderous Redcap
1x Essence Warden
1x Qasali Pridemage

Sorceries
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy

Artifacts
4x Birthing Pod
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Savannah
3x Bayou
1x Scrubland
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Wasteland

I know that's a long way from optimal, but it does incorporate equipment wins + birthing pod, which is just a crazy tutor and advantage engine. Knight of the Reliquary and Horizon Canopy should probably both be in there as well, but I just thought of them as I was typing this paragraph.

Either way, I think all of these lists should include either Stonefore/Equips (6slots, requires white) or NO/Pro (4slots, requires a way to discard/shuffle Prog) as a backup plan in addition to the main combo.

I'd say the main tutor engines for this deck without going into blue and the BS/Ponder realm are Fauna Shaman, Green Sun's Zenith, Birthing Pod, and Diabolic Intent, with NO being able to fetch either Melira, Scarland Thrinax, or Finks/Elite in addition to it's Prog backup function.

Morgan, where are your sacrifice outlets?

ah crap, knew i was forgetting something. dammit. thanks guy. everyone ignore my nonsense list. except the part about birthing pod. thats just sheer fucking genius.

I knew I traded into a set of those for a reason. Maybe between Melira, Birthing Pod, GSZ, and Fauna Shaman the deck may be able to go for the combo or combo-control route. I'll try to work up a list.

I'm quite the fan of Momentary Blink in decks with this many CITP effects. You need a better way to protect Melira anyway.

Winning with (casting) three cards:
A)
1. Buried Alive (dumping Protean Hulk, and two other random cards) +
(Edit: Entomb would be enough, you just need Protean Hulk)
2. A sacrifice oulet in play (Carrion Feeder, Phyrexian Tower, etc.) +
3. Reanimate spell (Reanimate, Animate Dead, Exhume, whatever), reanimating Protean Hulk, then sacrifice Protean Hulk to bring:

Melira + Kitchen Finks + Carrion Feeder (should the above sacrifice outlet is no longer available), or
Melira + Safehold Elite + Carrion Feeder + Essence Warden
etc.

EXTRA: With Dark Ritual, this could be a turn one combo. (Land, Dark Ritual, Entomb, Carrion Feeder, Reanimate)

B)
1. Buried Alive (dumping Protean Hulk, and Carrion Feeder and 1 random cards) +
2. A random creature to sacrifice to:
3. Victimize, bringing Protean Hulk and Carrion Feeder from the graveyard into play, then it goes the same way as above.


With (casting) one card:
Tooth and Nail, bringing Protean Hulk and Carrion Feeder into play, then see above. (But who plays with Tooth and Nail in Legacy, anyway? :)


PS:
Tortured Existence & Survival of the Fittest looks great together...

After messing around with various lists some more I've gotten to this one. It's still far from perfect though. It seemed like having non creatures as part of the combo diluted it and made it harder to assemble, so I limited the Persist guys to Finks and Redcap, which provides either infinite life or infinite damage. I also set the disruption up as mana denial and discard. The mana denial slows down your opponent, and the discard clears the way for you to go off. This version lacks a solid backup plan aside from beating with subpar critters, which is bad. It also has zero removal MD, which may be good or bad depending on your opinion of it.

Discard
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Thoughtseize

Protect yourself when going off, prevent them from doing the same.

Mana Denial
4x Wasteland
3x Destructive Flow

Lots of basics and manabirds help you to ignore the effects of both of these while still accelerating yourself.

Persist
4x Kitchen Finks
4x Murderous Redcap

These give you a way to win through either infinite damage or make it really hard to lose through infinite life. Both have moderate utility on their own as well.

Sacrifice Outlets
2x Scarland Thrinax
2x Dimir House Guard

Thrinax can be found with Zenith, and House Guard can tutor for either Birthing Pod or Murderous Redcap.

Tutors
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Birthing Pod

GSZ is acceleration, mana fixing, and combo completion. Almost no downsides to it at all. Birthing Pod can find any creature in your deck without being vulnerable to counter magic. Can also come down on T2 with help from a Zenith or Bird. Finds two guys from every persist creature.

Combo
4x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Eternal Witness

Melira is the enabler for the persist combos, while Sylvan protects your dudes while your going off, and Witness gets back anything you need.

Acceleration
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Birds of Paradise

With GSZ this gives you eight T1 manabirds without clogging your deck with them excessively. Birthing Pod can turn a BoP into a Melira if necessary. Or an Arbor into a BoP.

Lands
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Mountain
1x Taiga
1x Badlands
1x Bayou

Sideboard
4x Grim Lavamancer

Removes little dudes, utility critters, Bobs, and Merfolk.

4x Krosan Grip

Kills Leylines (Void and Sanctity) and Humility among other things.

3x Phyrexian Metamorph

Kills Iona, Emrakul, and Progenitus, tutorable with both Dimir House Guard and Birthing Pod.

1x Genesis

Gets all your guys back.

3x Dosan, the Falling Leaf

Turns off countermagic and instant speed removal, protecting your combo in the face of hate.


Like I said the deck lacks a good backup plan and has dudes that are generally smaller and more expensive than other Legacy creatures, so either No/Pro (4 slots) or a bunch of equipment w/no SFM (4ish slots, various swords and/or jitte) should likely be in the maindeck. There could be more sacrifice outlets or a way to win outside of damage, like Altar of Dementia. But I'm not certain how necessary that is. The maindeck as it stands now is also 63 cards, which is three too many. And it has no card draw outside of the various tutors and Birthing Pod. Top seems like a natural fit in a deck with essentially unlimited shuffle effects, but I have no idea what to cut for it and it also seems like it would slow things down in a deck that is already not quick.

However, even with all of those disclaimers, this seems like a solid/very reasonable place to start from when building the deck. I also looked at some kind of beast package (likely Garruk) + contested cliffs as a way to get removal and an alt-win in the maindeck, but that plan would require dropping the Destructive Flows. One other thought on alt-wins that this deck could probably use is Rude Awakening, but it is expensive at eight mana.

Why not use Imperial Recruiter as a tutor if running :r:? It can tutor up any part of the combo, or the 1-of Sylvan Safekeeper/Eternal Witness.

Melira (4)
4x Melira, Sylvok Outcast

Tutors (8)
4x Imperial Recruiter
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Sac outlets (8)
1x Viscera Seer (also Scry for Redcap)
2x Carrion Feeder
1x Bloodthrone Vampire (cmc2)
1x Scarland Thrinax (1-of for GSZ)
1x Goblin Bombardment
1x Blasting Station
1x Altar of Dementia

Persist guys (8)
4x Murderous Redcap
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Safehold Elite (for cheaper GSZ and for Recruiter if stuck with 3 lands)

Mana accel. (4)
4x Birds of Paradise

Protection/recovery (2)
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Eternal Witness

Disruption (7)
3x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy

Lands (19) - rough sketch
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Bayou
1x Taiga
1x Badlands

Sideboard (15)
3x Natural Order
1x Terastodon
1x Progenitus
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Mental Misstep / Leyline of the Void / Nihil Spellbomb
2x Beast Within

3 of everything, then 4 living wish to get whatever is missing. Living Wish can actually get Carrion Feeder / Visera Seer unlike GSZ. You could also pack Volraths Stronghold. Protects against Extirpate as well.

An upgraded deck made top8 at a big tournament:
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...8&iddeck=46498

I don't think birthing pod is good enough for legacy. Investing 4 mana and 4 life should win the game and having 4 of those without filter effects is not good.

I can think of a 4 mana sourcery that is pretty good.
With this combo, NO can also end the game on the spot instead of bringing up a Progenitus, right?