[Deck] Natural Order RUG

Overview:

NO RUG is a blue/green/red aggro-control deck that features the Natural Order/Progenitus combo. Superficially similar to many NO Bant lists, NO RUG runs red to cover its weaknesses at the cost of green/white utility creatures like Knight of the Reliquary, Stoneforge Mystic equipment packages, and white sideboard options like Gaddock Teeg. Using the best free countermagic, green acceleration and beaters, and red for repeatable removal/protecting Natural Order, NO RUG is a deck with few bad matchups.

History:

NO RUG burst onto the Legacy scene when Reid Duke piloted it to third place at GP Providence 2011. Since then, NO RUG has put around one or two pilots into the top 16s of the Star City Games Legacy opens. Michael Jacob piloted the deck to fourth place at the first Star City Games Invitational.

Decklists:

Alex Bertoncini, 13th place Star City Games Legacy Open Baltimore, Maryland

Creatures
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mental Misstep

Legendary Creatures
1 Progenitus
3 Vendilion Clique

Sorceries
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
2 Ponder

Basic Lands
1 Island

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills

Land Creatures
2 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Trygon Predator
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Todd Anderson, Star City Games Legacy Open Baltimore, Maryland

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mental Misstep

Legendary Creatures
1 Progenitus
3 Vendilion Clique


Sorceries
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
1 Ponder

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Island

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills

Land Creatures
2 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Terastodon
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction

Ron Natividad, 8th place Star City Games Legacy Open Denver, Colorado

Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Pierce

Legendary Creatures
1 Progenitus
3 Vendilion Clique

Sorceries
2 Chain Lightning
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
1 Ponder

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Island

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Terastodon
1 Mental Misstep
2 Pyroblast
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Card Choices:

Manabase: Red gives the deck numerous advantages over white, and is a much better complement to the Natural Order strategy.

Noble Hierarch: The best acceleration in the format also sacrifices to Natural Order. Run four.

Grim Lavamancer: One of the biggest reasons to run NO RUG over other aggro-control lists. Grim Lavamancer eats up Goblins and Merfolk, two of aggro-control’s worst matchups, while stopping Stoneforge Mystic and manlands cold. Lavamancer kills almost all of the formats problem creatures while often providing those last few, important points of damage.

Tarmogoyf: The best beater in the colors we run. Provides early defense while you set up Natural Order and acts as a strong backup plan if Natural Order is countered. In large numbers, Tarmogoyf can win you games on his own.

Vendilion Clique: Arguably the best non-Progenitus creature in the list, this is one of the few decks that want to run more than two. Vendilion Clique curves beautifully into Natural Order, while letting you see if the coast is clear for Progenitus to start stomping your opponent’s guts out. In a pinch, Clique can put Progenitus back in your deck or pitch to Force of Will. Blue Duress plus an evasive beater, what more do you want from a card?

Dryad Arbor: Turns Green Sun’s Zenith into mana acceleration and allows your fetchlands to get you a green creature for Natural Order if needed.

Natural Order/Progenitus combo: An often-maligned strategy that shines in this shell. The combo can win you games out of nowhere as Progenitus has Protection from everything, making him nearly unanswerable once he hits the table. Potentially fast enough to race Goblins and in a format where nobody runs Wrath of God, he slays control if he hits the table. Acts as a catch-all in matchups where our other cards are ineffective.

Brainstorm: Arguably the most powerful card in Legacy. Run four.

Force of Will: A card whose usefulness has been debated to the point where Bant lists have cut it and many decks are now running three, NO RUG wants four. It provides much needed protection for Natural Order, hits the few answers there are to Progenitus such as Moat and Humility, acts as a speedbump for the faster aggro decks, and is invaluable against combo.

Daze: Another free counterspell whose merits have been debated in NO RUG. Setting yourself back on land is counterproductive to casting four-mana bombs, but its value on the first few turns of the game has kept it in the lists for now.

Mental Misstep: The new kid on the block, Mental Misstep has redefined Legacy. Saves your guys from removal while making sure aggro and combo play fair.

Lightning Bolt: Kills just about everything Swords to Plowshares does without giving your opponent any life. Lightning Bolt is a much better choice against Merfolk and Goblins than Swords to Plowshares. Many important tournament matches have been decided by a NO RUG player ripping a Lightning Bolt off the top for those last three points of damage.

Green Sun’s Zenith: Acts as acceleration while being able to fetch Tarmogoyfs when needed. Green Sun’s Zenith is a versatile, essential part of NO RUG.

Ponder: Grows Tarmogoyf, feeds Grim Lavamancer, and digs for whatever you need. Often the first card sideboarded out of the deck, it smooths your draws and helps ensure you draw Natural Order.

Sylvan Library: Provides card selection while also granting massive card advantage against control and combo decks that aren't rapidly chewing away at your life total. A situational, but useful card.

Chain Lightning: A debated slot. See Lightning Bolt.

Fire // Ice: A recent addition to the deck. Fills many of the same roles as Lightning Bolt while pitching to Force of Will, and cantripping at worst.

Relic of Progenitus/Tormod’s Crypt/Surgical Extraction: Graveyard hate is essential in an increasingly graveyard-dependant format. Relic cantripps, but makes Tarmogoyf tiny and depletes Grim Lavamancer. Surgical Extraction is free and instant speed, but may not get the job done against Ichorid decks. Tormod’s Crypt may be found to be an acceptable compromise between the two.

Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast: Another trump in the Merfolk match. Also protects your Natural Orders and gets Jace, the Mind Sculptor off the table.

Ancient Grudge: Another benefit of the red splash. Kills equipment dead, hits Affinity’s dorks, answers problem permanents like Ensnaring Bridge, and sticks around to do it again.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor: Gives you another win condition against decks that can answer Natural Order. Very helpful in winning against dedicated control.

Thrun, the Last Troll: Another trump for the control matchup, Thrun, the Last Troll is also a fantastic Jitte carrier.

Submerge: Another new addition that gives you answers to most of the creatures that Lightning Bolt can’t reliably handle such as Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary.

Umezawa’s Jitte: Helps out against creature heavy decks.

Terastodon: Another answer for problem artifacts and enchantments, but really shines in a few matchups. Against aggro decks, he provides blockers and 18 total power worth of creatures for those times Progenitus just isn’t quick enough. Blowing up all your Islands while making 18 power worth of creatures has swung more than one Merfolk match. It’s also funny to hit High Tide’s manabase.

Playing Natural Order RUG, by Jona

Like the title suggests, this is about playing Natural Order RUG (or NO RUG in short). At first, I'm going to write something about how the deck plays in general (which is hard by the way, because how you play heavily depends on the matchup) and after that I'll go more into detail on specific matchups. Note that these analyses are limited to the decks I frequently face in tournaments.

I'm going to use the most recent list I played to showcase what the deck is capable of doing:

//Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

//Creatures
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique

//Other Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Fire // Ice
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Misstep
4 Natural Order
3 Ponder

//Sideboard
1 Relic Of Progenitus
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
2 Energy Flux
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction

The list is of course not optimal, but what list is? I would only change two cards in the maindeck as of now, but these changes are mostly untested. As you can see, the deck has more than a few cards in common with Canadian Threshold or Next Level Thresh. On top of that, it has elements of Bant Aggro (and Big Zoo) in Green Sun's Zenith and Noble Hierarch. And in that shell, which is already strong by the way, you have the Natural Order package.

The way I see it, this is not a straight up combo deck. It's rather an aggro deck with disruption to both force through it's late game (turn three to four) bombs (Natural Order) and protect its threats (Tarmogoyf and Vendilion Clique mostly, sometimes the Exalted-ability). It's also interesting to see how Vendilion Clique is the perfect card for this deck since it can represent a clock and disrupt your opponent. There are only few matches where you're going to act as a combo deck and it's crucial to know in which matches you are going to do that.

Finding out what your opponent is playing is really important for your success with this deck. You need to know how they are trying to beat you in order to chose the according gameplan. I know that this is basic Magic strategy, but this is more important for this deck than for most other decks.

In general there are two ways they can try to beat you: The first one is that they try to race you. Not easy when you can curve into a turn three Natural Order but definitely manageable if you're facing some form of combo or really fast aggro. Keep in mind that a turn three Natural Order is usually only a turn five kill. The other way to beat you is to not let you win. This is what most control decks are trying to do.

If you know your opponent's plan for the game, you want to find out how you're going to interact with them and how they plan to interact with you, i.e. find out what particular cards play a major role in the current game. If you do this carefully and consequently, you will manage to win a lot of games with this deck.

In a lot of games casting Natural Order is the easiest and fastest way to win. Sometimes you need to explore other routes to victory though, such as beating with a lonely Vendilion Clique or flooding the board with Tarmogoyfs (this is basically only good against few decks, but you will encounter situations where it's the best plan). This deck does not focus on resolving Natural Order but it's still one of the best bombs in the format so if you can have it, why not use it?

If you have the turn three or four Natural Order, it's usually the best move to use it. As long as you don't blindly tap out into everything, Natural Order will rarely let you down. If you've played some form of combo deck before, you should know that it's often bad to wait too long, your opponent will only get more answers and opportunities to sculpt their hand.

As with every other deck, don't overextend into sweepers. Play your cards carefully. Don't dig for Natural Order if you don't need it, you want to get as much value as possible out of your cantrips. This is also true for how you play Vendilion Clique. You only want to cast it early on when you have no other way to win the game or multiples in hand and it will kill them if they don't deal with it (unlikely) or you set up for Natural Order. If you want to use it for disruption, you should either cast it when they're tapped out or in their draw step to see as many cards as possible before your opponent can play them.

After this general introduction, let's look at the matchups.


UWR Stoneblade / Patriot

This is the deck I currently see the most at the top tables. It's really hard to play this matchup and overall it's pretty even. In my experience your best bet is to play as aggressively as possible in game one, but don't waste your burnspells. Use them to kill their Stoneforge Mystics, Jaces and eventually them. This should be obvious. Try to kill them before they can resolve Ancestral Vision and just overwhelm you. Also keep in mind that Batterskull can do a decent job in racing or stalling you.

For postboard games there are different ways you can play. You should definitely bring in your Krosan Grips for their Batterskulls and most likely some Red Elemental Blasts. Depending on what you bring in, this keeps your main plan mostly intact. You sure can board out your removal, but I don't think this is a good move. I did this before I tried out what Reid Duke wrote about in his report from Providence: Boarding out Green Sun's Zenith and Tarmogoyf. This was much more successful. It's definitely a bold move but it's hard for them to deal with Natural Order, they only have few outs to it.

Cards you need to deal with are Stoneforge Mystic, Wrath Of God and Ancestral Vision. Jace, The Mind Sculptor obviously wins games but the first three cards are more important.

With the list posted above, my boarding was this:

-4 Tarmogoyf
-4 Green Sun's Zenith
+2 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Thrun, The Last Troll
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Spell Pierce


Maverick

This is another deck I frequently encounter where I play (according to TCDecks this is actually the most successful deck as of now). Against them it heavily depends on what they're playing, there's a lot of variance in decklists. Again, it's probably your best bet to resolve an early Natural Order and race them. Don't get killed by Mirran Crusader or screwed up by Aven Mindcensor. Luckily both of them die to burnspells so you should be able to deal with them. Also make sure to take care of Mother Of Runes or otherwise it might protect their pesky creatures. Force Of Will and Vendilion Clique are rather bad as they neither have relevant countermagic you need to take care of nor do they have any key spells you want to take away from them. Vendilion Clique also loses to Scryb Ranger, which sees some play.

For postboard games you have a lot of really strong tools; you can bring in Krosan Grip to deal with their equipment, Grim Lavamancer to kill off their creatures and draw removal away from your Tarmogoyfs and Submerge which is a beast and deals with their flashed in Aven Mindcensors. That move has won me quite some games as drawing Aven Mindcensor after you resolved Natural Order is pretty much useless. Keep in mind that they can board in stuff like Wing Shards and don't run into it. Green Sun's Zenith for Gaddock Teeg also happens, but you can deal with it (hint: use red cards).

For sideboarding I recommend this:

-3 Vendilion Clique
-4 Force Of Will
+1 Relic Of Progenitus
+2 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 Submerge

You don't necessarily need all of these cards and could probably keep some of Vendilion Cliques, but Submerge, Grim Lavamancer and Krosan Grip definitely are among the best available sideboard cards in the current meta, not only against Maverick.


Natural Order RUG - The Mirror

The mirror is hard to play. You both want to resolve an early Natural Order and kill your opponent before they can to so. This mirror is mostly about tempo. Because of that you want to kill your opponents Noble Hierarchs and Dryad Arbors. Fire // Ice is a great tool against the mirror, it can also occasionally tap down lands to keep your opponent off Natural Order mana if they're playing around removal.

Natural Order, Force Of Will and Vendilion Clique are the most important cards in this matchup, but also play around Daze when necessary. Mental Misstep and Tarmogoyf are not too strong here, but even though Mental Misstep won't hit any keyspells here it's quite strong to maintain tempo advantage or prevent your opponent from gaining an edge. Turn two Vendilion Clique into turn three Natural Order is one of the strongest possible lines of play in the format, this is especially true for the mirror.

Postboard you have access to Submerge, Spell Pierce, Grim Lavamancer and Red Elemental Blast to counter their stuff. A timely Submerge can not only slow them down considerably but also screw up Brainstorms they use to protect against Vendilion Clique. There are way more cards you want to bring in than you want to board out. I don't think Grim Lavamancer is necessary to win here, especially not if you board out Tarmogoyf.

-4 Tarmogoyf
-1 Mental Misstep
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Spell Pierce
+2 Submerge


Zoo

In my experience, this is one of our hardest matchups. They can simply just race your Progenitus and they have lots of removal to prevent you from accelerating and keep you low on mana in general. Try to counter sources of massive damage like early Wild Nacatls and Steppe Lynxes, huge creatures like Knight Of The Reliquary or even Terravore and blowout-burnspells like Price Of Progress. Don't lose to Grim Lavamancer, that guy can easily rain on your parade.

Just like Maverick, they don't have real keyspells so Force Of Will and Vendilion Clique are rather bad cards here. What you bring in mostly depends on what you expect from them and what kind of list they play. Against some lists you definitely want to bring Krosan Grip, against others Submerge just wins games on its own.

Because I mostly face Big Zoo lists with equipment and the occasional Choke, my boarding is usually the same as against Maverick:

-3 Vendilion Clique
-4 Force Of Will
+1 Relic Of Progenitus
+2 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 Submerge

Merfolk

Apart from the fact that this matchup is really easy, I enjoy playing it since it's highly interactive and can play out in a lot of different ways. Sometimes you just have it and go for the turn three Natural Order but between Daze, Cursecatcher, Wasteland and Mental Misstep on your Natural Order, this doesn't happen too often. Rarely, but sometimes, they can also just blow you out. Another way to win is if you just beat them down with multiple Tarmogoyfs.

Apart from Lord Of Atlantis and Æther Vial, there aren't really any overly important cards in their deck. My plan for this matchup has always been to board out the Natural Order combo. It's much harder for them to deal with a bunch of Tarmogoyfs backed up with burnspells, Grim Lavamancer and Red Elemental Blast. Note that you have a lot of mana but your curve is quite low without Natural Order so you don't lose to their Dazes, Cursecatchers and Wastelands in postboard games. Blowing them out with Vendilion Clique on a crucial Æther Vial activation is a quite strong move.

It doesn't really matter whether you bring in Spell Pierce or Thrun, The Last Troll, both have their merits and neither is incredibly important. If you expect Umezawa's Jitte or odd things like Cursed Totem you can also bring in a Krosan Grip.

-1 Progenitus
-4 Natural Order
+2 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Spell Pierce
+2 Red Elemental Blast


How to beat…

…countermagic? Resolve a Vendilion Clique. This is often important and Vendilion Clique is generally a strong card against decks with countermagic. An end of turn Clique occasionally kills Jace, The Mind Sculptor. Against decks with countermagic your three most important cards usually are Natural Order, Vendilion Clique and Force Of Will. Sometimes you get Red Elemental Blast and Spell Pierce.

…Wrath Of God? This is similar to beating countermagic. But keep in mind that you rarely need more than a two turn window to attack with Progenitus and if you manage to keep your opponent from having four mana or you can counter it, this is usually enough. If you don't have Progenitus, don't overextend into Wrath Of God or Damnation. Thrun, The Last Troll laughs at Day Of Judgment.

…Diabolic Edict and the like? Have one or two uncracked fetches with at least one Dryad Arbor in your deck when you already have Progenitus on the table. Flashing in Vendilion Clique is also rather useful.

…Jace, The Mind Sculptor? You don't necessarily need to deal with him. Attacking your opponent with Progenitus often helps. Jace helps them finding answers though, so you could Red Elemental Blast it. End of turn Vendilion beats him, as does Grim Lavamancer or a creature you have on the battlefield before resolves and then killing him with a burnspell.

…boatloads of spotremoval? This works like beating Diabolic Edict: You set up a gamestate where you can resolve Natural Order. You then either have four lands plus an uncracked fetch, Dryad Arbor in your hand or enough mana to cast Green Sun's Zenith, Noble Hierarch or Tarmogoyf. You then get a green creature to sacrifice for Natural Order and do so without passing priority. And violà: you get a 10/10 with protection from everything (including spotremoval).

…lifegain (Batterskull)? First off: Run Krosan Grip. It also beats Umezawa's Jitte. Other than that, race it with a 10/10 protection from everything of your choice. You can also burn Stoneforge Mystic or cast Vendilion Clique in response to Stoneforge Mystic's activation. This works, trust me.

…Hive Mind? Pay for the pacts, make sure you counter your copies, don't let them resolve Hive Mind or just race them. Lists with Daze have a huge advantage here.

Suggested Reading:

GP Providence Report: 3rd with Natural Order RUG
NO More Games
I Get NO Respect!
The Baltimore Open

i was expecting Reid Duke's up there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by death

i was expecting Reid Duke's up there.

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Him and Todd Anderson agree on just about everything about the deck, and Duke's GP-winning list was a little outdated. I might add it later for historical purposes.

Awesome Primer! The deck was driving fast from Developmental to a DTB (I'd appreciate Nihil explaining the statistic behind the election). I enjoy how this deck was disguised as a Bant deck during most of its developing days and people screamed how StP was "strictly" better than Bolt during the transition.

Are you going to add some MU analysis, Kuma? The way I see it, it is like 60-40 against Vial Aggro and Chalice Aggro, about even against Bant, Zoo, but not as sound against Combo and Dredge (slightly below 50-50 against competent pilots). I need more tests against Control, Stoneblade and Rock. I feel that the above-average MU is due to the few Progenitus hates around. The recent printing of Phyrexian Metamorph, Phantasmal Image lends the card pool some MDable hates against this deck.

I think I'm going to write something about the matchups, how they play out and what sideboard cards are valuable. I might write an article or just post it here, given that I don't write for SCG or something.
Regarding the matchups; it's hard to lose against Merfolk and Goblins. Dredge is also favourable in my experience. UWR Stoneforge is pretty even but slightly favourable with the right boarding plans and tight play (tried something out yesterday and that seemed pretty strong).
This deck's main selling point is its versatility, you can basically play combo, beatdown or control; depending on what cards you see (or dig for with your cantrips) and how you sideboard. It's also nice that you can switch roles between games two and three, this has won me quite a few matches.
I played in a tournament yesterday and one of my two losses was because I wasn't focused at all and heavily punted two games against Zoo (still managed to win one though). The other one was against DDFT which I obviously didn't metagame against. This was my list:


//Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

//Creatures
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique

//Other Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Fire // Ice
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Misstep
4 Natural Order
3 Ponder

//Sideboard
1 Relic Of Progenitus
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
2 Energy Flux
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction

The list was really strong and I'm only going to change two cards at most in the maindeck and a few cards in the sideboard. You can also read my report from last week for some information on how I play and sideboard.

By the way, this deck didn't start with Reid's performance in Providence but when he piloted it to a sixth place finish in Boston in April. This was even before Mental Misstep was legal though.

I used to play Pro Bant but after the print of mental misstep and the rise of landstill decks I shifted to RUG (mostly for red elem. blast and cause lighting bolt>merfolks).
I wanted to ask if adding 2 jaces MD worth it. My list is:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Dryad Arbor

/Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique

/Other
4 Brainstorm
2 Fire // Ice
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Misstep
3 Natural Order
3 Ponder
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
3 Green Sun Zenith

He provides an other win con and they never expect him.
I used to have +3 daze +1 grim lavamancer -1 V. clique -1 ponder -2 fire // ice
but after seen fire//ice in action i never go back, also V. clique does the same thing as a daze in order to protect NO or jace.
lastly I removed 1 NO for the jaces cause its the only card I do not want to see in multiples ( I am happy with 2 cliques+fow but i hate it with 3 NO in opening hand).
Any suggestions are wellcome.

EDIT: I do not say that daze is not good (it kicks ass) but the fear of having daze does more damage than actualy having daze

Is your list missing 3 Green Sun's Zenith? Seems like. Also, in my testing Jace was not good. I don't care if I get multiple Natural Orders, it easily wins games anyway. How often do you lose after you resolved Natural Order? I lost a total of two tournament games after resolving it and drew another one (this was a very interesting situation that came up yesterday). Jace, The Mind Sculptor is also not too strong against most cotrol decks, they actually have less out against Progenitus than against Jace. Further, it's also easier to resolve Natural Order than Jace.

Care to explain why Natural Order is easier to resolve than Jace? Both require double colored mana but NO needs a green creature to sacrifice. Since most control decks are U/w, if I'm playing U/w I would reserve my counters for NO than Jace because 1) Jace won't kill me in two turns 2) I can still attack Jace with critters 3) I can cast Jace to legend-rule your Jace. If I'm playing U/b/x then it's a different story, I would let your NO resolve and get rid of Progenitus with black removal spells, cast my Jace to fateseal you and prevent you from drawing NO or resolving Jace. But again, U/w is more played.

This thread needs more discussion about how to identify roles in game, and when to pursue the Tarmogoyf plan instead of the NO plan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by death

Care to explain why Natural Order is easier to resolve than Jace? Both require double colored mana but NO needs a green creature to sacrifice. Since most control decks are U/w, if I'm playing U/w I would reserve my counters for NO than Jace because 1) Jace won't kill me in two turns 2) I can still attack Jace with critters 3) I can cast Jace to legend-rule your Jace. If I'm playing U/b/x then it's a different story, I would let your NO resolve and get rid of Progenitus with black removal spells, cast my Jace to fateseal you and prevent you from drawing NO or resolving Jace. But again, U/w is more played.

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First off, I didn't say Natural Order was easier to resolve than Jace but harder to deal with (though it actually is easier to resolve because of Red Elemental Blast on Jace). Anyway, you explained it yourself, a resolved Natural Order is way harder to deal with than Jace and setting up a gamestate with four mana and a fetch for Dryad Arbor is not exactly hard to set up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mchainmail

This thread needs more discussion about how to identify roles in game, and when to pursue the Tarmogoyf plan instead of the NO plan.

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I'm writing on this as I've been experimenting with stuff like boarding out Natural Order or Tarmogoyfs. I'm sure I'll be able to post full in-depth matchup analyses with explanation of the deck's general playstyle tomorrow or even today (but that's rather unlikely).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by death

Care to explain why Natural Order is easier to resolve than Jace? Both require double colored mana but NO needs a green creature to sacrifice. Since most control decks are U/w, if I'm playing U/w I would reserve my counters for NO than Jace because 1) Jace won't kill me in two turns 2) I can still attack Jace with critters 3) I can cast Jace to legend-rule your Jace. If I'm playing U/b/x then it's a different story, I would let your NO resolve and get rid of Progenitus with black removal spells, cast my Jace to fateseal you and prevent you from drawing NO or resolving Jace. But again, U/w is more played.

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First off, I didn't say Natural Order was easier to resolve than Jace but harder to deal with (though it actually is easier to resolve because of Red Elemental Blast on Jace). Anyway, you explained it yourself, a resolved Natural Order is way harder to deal with than Jace and setting up a gamestate with four mana and a fetch for Dryad Arbor is not exactly hard to set up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mchainmail

This thread needs more discussion about how to identify roles in game, and when to pursue the Tarmogoyf plan instead of the NO plan.

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I'm writing on this as I've been experimenting with stuff like boarding out Natural Order or Tarmogoyfs. I'm sure I'll be able to post full in-depth matchup analyses with explanation of the deck's general playstyle tomorrow or even today (but that's rather unlikely).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jona

Is your list missing 3 Green Sun's Zenith? Seems like. ....

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yeah I will edit it now.

In my meta there are more bug landstill than U/w ones thats why I wanted to try jace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jona

First off, I didn't say Natural Order was easier to resolve than Jace but harder to deal with (though it actually is easier to resolve because of Red Elemental Blast on Jace)...

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Not to be a dick, but your reply was kind of condescending, so I feel that I should point this out...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jona

Is your list missing 3 Green Sun's Zenith? Seems like. Also, in my testing Jace was not good. I don't care if I get multiple Natural Orders, it easily wins games anyway. How often do you lose after you resolved Natural Order? I lost a total of two tournament games after resolving it and drew another one (this was a very interesting situation that came up yesterday). Jace, The Mind Sculptor is also not too strong against most cotrol decks, they actually have less out against Progenitus than against Jace. Further, it's also easier to resolve Natural Order than Jace.

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I personally feel that Jace2 and Natural Order fill up the same slot, so they don't really go in the same deck unless it's to sideboard one for the other like Burtoncini's list. I Think Jace2 is undeniably strong post board plan as surely, they will be siding in hate against your Progenitus more than for your Jace2. Jace2 is actually a great card against control decks because the card advantage is what allows you to win the attrition wars control decks often put you into. How do you guys feel about the 2x Grim Lavamancers that frequent this deck? Is that even enough? Just a random question I thought I'd throw out there.

PS: I don't understand how you lost after drawing multiple Natural Orders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jin

Not to be a dick, but your reply was kind of condescending, so I feel that I should point this out...

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This was not my intention, sorry. Also, I should probably start remembering what I write.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jin

I personally feel that Jace2 and Natural Order fill up the same slot, so they don't really go in the same deck unless it's to sideboard one for the other like Burtoncini's list. I Think Jace2 is undeniably strong post board plan as surely, they will be siding in hate against your Progenitus more than for your Jace2. Jace2 is actually a great card against control decks because the card advantage is what allows you to win the attrition wars control decks often put you into. How do you guys feel about the 2x Grim Lavamancers that frequent this deck? Is that even enough? Just a random question I thought I'd throw out there.

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I agree with your opinion on Jace. In my testing against U/W/r it was rarely worth it as they have a lot of ways to deal with him. Against UBG I'm not sure, that deck is not really prevalent where I play, even in bigger events. About the Grim Lavamancers: I tested them maindeck and then tried Fire // Ice instead, which was way better. Fire // Ice has won me more games than Grim Lavamancer because of stuff like killing two Goblins, not being hit by Mental Misstep, tapping down Batterskulls to race them and pitching to Force Of Will (this one is actually really important).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jin

PS: I don't understand how you lost after drawing multiple Natural Orders.

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This wasn't what I meant. I lost two games total where I resolved Natural Order. One was because of a misplay and was actually still really close and the other one was against UWR where I also misplayed and therefore lost. On top of that I drew a game against UWR because of time in which I resolved Natural Order. I could have won that game but variance striked. I had three draw steps to draw either a land, a burnspell, a Noble Hierarch or Green Sun's Zenith in order to win, but I didn't.

Edit: I finished writing a general guide for playing the deck plus matchup analyses with sideboard guide for my latest tested list. I also wrote something about tricks you need to be able to pull off from time to time.
I only wrote about Maverick, Merfolk, Stoneblade, Zoo and the mirror though. BUG Landstill and Bant Aggro are not relevant where I play so I'm not able to write in-depth analyses about these matchups. Is there something else that's important in the current meta or that you feel should be mentioned? Are there any situations that came up in testing or tournaments that you feel should be explained?

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Originally Posted by mchainmail

This thread needs more discussion about how to identify roles in game, and when to pursue the Tarmogoyf plan instead of the NO plan.

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This would be good. I recently played the deck at a smallish event just to try it out.

I ended up going 3-2, beating TES, Uw Stoneforge, and Affinity all rather easily, got crushed by Reanimator and lost a close one to Merfolk.

I found that I almost never wanted NO... in fact I think I sided it out every single round.

Maybe that was incorrect, but the "Zenith up an army of Tarmogoyfs" + Clique beats was almost always preferable.

The NO plan ended up being a turn too slow for me a lot of the time at the event and in other testing.

Did you really feel like you didn't want it or rather like you didn't need it? At one point I also thought that I almost never needed it, but when I had it, I almost always won. The plan of winning with lots of Tarmogoyfs is mostly good against decks without big creatures but with a lot of small ones, i.e. Merfolk, Goblins and Affinity. It might also be too slow against storm combo, but I'm not sure about that. Against basically every other deck in the format Natural Order is amazing.

Edit: I don't think we need the guide twice on the first page.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jona

I agree with your opinion on Jace. In my testing against U/W/r it was rarely worth it as they have a lot of ways to deal with him. Against UBG I'm not sure, that deck is not really prevalent where I play, even in bigger events. About the Grim Lavamancers: I tested them maindeck and then tried Fire // Ice instead, which was way better. Fire // Ice has won me more games than Grim Lavamancer because of stuff like killing two Goblins, not being hit by Mental Misstep, tapping down Batterskulls to race them and pitching to Force Of Will (this one is actually really important).

Edit: I finished writing a general guide for playing the deck plus matchup analyses with sideboard guide for my latest tested list. I also wrote something about tricks you need to be able to pull off from time to time.
I only wrote about Maverick, Merfolk, Stoneblade, Zoo and the mirror though. BUG Landstill and Bant Aggro are not relevant where I play so I'm not able to write in-depth analyses about these matchups. Is there something else that's important in the current meta or that you feel should be mentioned? Are there any situations that came up in testing or tournaments that you feel should be explained?

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Oh that's interesting. I noticed that a lot of lists opted for Fire/Ice instead of lavamancer in the main. How come the count is only at two if this card is so important?

As for tricks go, don't forget the Vigilant 10/10 protection from everything Natural Order your Progenitus trick. Also another interaction I found interesting was, "Oh shit, I drew Progenitus," Vendilion Clique my 10/10 to the bottom.

That's all for now folks.

I wrote a small report about playing NO RUG to Top 8 in a 50ish man tournament. Read about it here. Please refrain from commenting about the rest of the article on here.

I really like the deck, but it does need a solution to the Hive Mind match up (they just drop Emrakul, it's fucking annoying. That being said, my opponent was being very sketchy this match, so...)

I like 3 surgical extraction in my SB. I think it can also be used very effectively versus Hive Mind if they intuition or if you manage to counter 1 combo piece. Besides that I think we have to hope to win the counter wars with Red-Blast support or to get lucky with a daze.
...probably still slightly unfavourable, but I did not test a lot!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jin

Oh that's interesting. I noticed that a lot of lists opted for Fire/Ice instead of lavamancer in the main. How come the count is only at two if this card is so important?

As for tricks go, don't forget the Vigilant 10/10 protection from everything Natural Order your Progenitus trick. Also another interaction I found interesting was, "Oh shit, I drew Progenitus," Vendilion Clique my 10/10 to the bottom.

That's all for now folks.

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It's not overly important but a strong and versatile card. Plus the deck is lacking space for more. I might actually go up to three, but I don't know what to cut from my current list anymore. I even considered cutting a Tarmogoyf or two but I don't want to focus too much on the Natural Order plan. Being able to execute a somewhat normal Next Level Thresh game is actually quite important against most aggro decks (but Fire // Ice is not bad against these decks either).

And your right, I should have mentioned the vigilance trick, probably in the last section. I'm going to write something about the game I drew on Sunday, as the board state was really interesting and when I tanked, at least five people told me there was no way I could win. In fact, there was no way I could lose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

I wrote a small report about playing NO RUG to Top 8 in a 50ish man tournament. Read about it here. Please refrain from commenting about the rest of the article on here.

I really like the deck, but it does need a solution to the Hive Mind match up (they just drop Emrakul, it's fucking annoying. That being said, my opponent was being very sketchy this match, so...)

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Interesting report. Also nice to see that you picked up this deck, we should play a few games again (testing against Hive Mind?). Anyway, how did you like Umezawa's Jitte in your sideboard? In my experience it was often not strong enough as this deck doesn't have too many creatures. Also, how did you like Trygon Predator? What are you looking to beat with it, and isn't it too slow for that role? If it's for Affinity, I know for sure that Energy Flux just beats them, but if Trygon Predator is better, tell me.

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Originally Posted by catmint

I like 3 surgical extraction in my SB. I think it can also be used very effectively versus Hive Mind if they intuition or if you manage to counter 1 combo piece. Besides that I think we have to hope to win the counter wars with Red-Blast support or to get lucky with a daze.
...probably still slightly unfavourable, but I did not test a lot!

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I'm running Surgical Extraction as well, but I'm not sure if it's necessary. I don't face graveyard based decks or combo decks very often. It has worked quite well so far though, and it won me some games other pieces of graveyard hate wouldn't have won. Having something to exile your opponent's entire graveyard is still quite useful, so I think I'll stick to Relic Of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt for the third slot.


About the interesting gamestate that came up on Sunday:

It was my opponents turn. He had three lands, a Germ token with Batterskull and a Stoneforge Mystic. My board was just two lands plus a Dryad Arbor. Hed had two cards in hand, I had Natural Order, Natural Order, Fire // Ice, Lightning Bolt. He was at 21, I was at 15. He attacked with both of his creatures and time was called in his turn. He was quite sure he would win. I took five, he went to 25. I drew a land for my turn and cast Natural Order, it resolved. I got Progenitus and he said the game was a draw.

What would you do in that situation?

Like I said, I bummed the list off of my friend Bryan (keys). The board definitely needed some work. I did like the Jitte, but I don't know if they are good enough. Trygon was in there for SFM decks I think... I don't really know. If I play the deck again, it will be with a very different sideboard. The one I used was pretty bad. I was actually boarding out the NO package in most match ups, except for the No Force match up, it just didn't do enough.

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Originally Posted by Jona

Did you really feel like you didn't want it or rather like you didn't need it? At one point I also thought that I almost never needed it, but when I had it, I almost always won. The plan of winning with lots of Tarmogoyfs is mostly good against decks without big creatures but with a lot of small ones, i.e. Merfolk, Goblins and Affinity. It might also be too slow against storm combo, but I'm not sure about that. Against basically every other deck in the format Natural Order is amazing.

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I mean, whenever I cast it, I almost always got a scoop, but I was always -probably- going to win anyway. (eg: My army of Goyfs and hand of counter magic is suddenly backed up by this here 10/10, woo.) So I guess it's more of a "not needing it."

I haven't played against everything obviously, so it was more of a first impression while piloting the deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jona

It's not overly important but a strong and versatile card. Plus the deck is lacking space for more. I might actually go up to three, but I don't know what to cut from my current list anymore. I even considered cutting a Tarmogoyf or two but I don't want to focus too much on the Natural Order plan. Being able to execute a somewhat normal Next Level Thresh game is actually quite important against most aggro decks (but Fire // Ice is not bad against these decks either).

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What about Ponder? It seems like a flex slot in a lot of decks. Is it important to this one?

I am a fan of Ponder (playing 2). It shines in combodecks to find the right cards and is also helpful in finding hate piecies. I usually don't side them out if possible.

How about replacing 1 noble hierach with a birds of paradise?
With all the red in MD and especially SB, I find it is the most effective way of stopping red-blast, lavamancer,... by wasting our volcanic island.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catmint

How about replacing 1 noble hierach with a birds of paradise?
With all the red in MD and especially SB, I find it is the most effective way of stopping red-blast, lavamancer,... by wasting our volcanic island.

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The idea is definitely feasible. Also, if you're finding mana denial on red sources to be an issue, a basic Mountain might help a little. I'm very interested in the deck, actually, and my MTG hiatus ends this weekend at SCG Cincinnati.

Has anyone found the need for Beast Within?

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Originally Posted by catmint

I am a fan of Ponder (playing 2). It shines in combodecks to find the right cards and is also helpful in finding hate piecies. I usually don't side them out if possible.

How about replacing 1 noble hierach with a birds of paradise?
With all the red in MD and especially SB, I find it is the most effective way of stopping red-blast, lavamancer,... by wasting our volcanic island.

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interesting.. more useful than goyf?

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Originally Posted by Morbid-

The idea is definitely feasible. Also, if you're finding mana denial on red sources to be an issue, a basic Mountain might help a little. I'm very interested in the deck, actually, and my MTG hiatus ends this weekend at SCG Cincinnati.

Has anyone found the need for Beast Within?

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I think wipeaway is just better

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Originally Posted by Morbid-

Has anyone found the need for Beast Within?

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Meh, I haven't wanted it. I don't think it's better than existing options and I'm not sure where to fit it in the deck.

I'm intrigued by adding a Birds of Paradise. I think that warrants some testing.

Unfortunately, I 0-2 dropped one of my 15-man locals this week losing an insanely close match to Tezzeret Affinity round one and losing to Maverick round two. To those who are familiar with Maverick or the Maverick matchup, how do you sideboard for it with NO RUG? More specifically, do you keep Force of Will in or not? It seems like there's a lot of cards you really want to counter like Aven Mindcensor (he blew me out game two by flashing one in in response to Natural Order), Choke, and Scryb Ranger (God, that's the most annoying creature in Legacy). I also feel like you almost need a Natural Order to win against Maverick.

I decided to try cutting Daze for Fire // Ice and Grim Lavamancer. I was glad I did against Affinity, as Fire // Ice and Grim Lavamancer kept me in the game whereas Daze would have been awful. It was a little more up in the air against Maverick.

Here's what I ran:

3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Forest
1 Island

1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire // Ice

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

I'm glad this got written up. I picked this deck up before this thread opened and the hardest part I was having was the SBing. I want to keep in so much stuff. The tips should help out alot.

@Fire/Ice: I started with a list from the GP and changed out the Changed Lightning for them and I really like it. The 2 for 1 is great on Fire and Ice can cycle if needed.

@Clique:I'm still not a huge fan of it. I run 2 with a Trigon. But my meta is filled with SFM decks so having Trigon in the MD is good.

@Ancient Grudge: Again I see lists not running it. I find it really good. Again 2 for 1. Is this more a meta choice?

Mindscensor Maverick can be hard to combat, as you will have to take care of MoR to keep burn useable, KotR because he just beats face fast enough to race Progenitus and Teeg/Mindscensor.

Make sure to Vendilion before NO, as this mostly is enough to safely resolve NO (and actually find Prog) and win. Otherwise you have no choice other than keeping 1 red open to Bolt / Grim the Scensor or to have FoW backup.

Submerge is huge in the board, maybe a Metachoice over the 4th Blast and/or Trygons in the board. It's definately winnable, but Maverick tends to get the "nut hand" (at least it looks like it to most other decks) more often then we do.

Our Maindecks are nearly the same. I rotate with Daze and Grim in the 2 slots as a meta call and got 1 Scanvenging Ooze over goyf, who wins the Maverick MU alone if untouched.

I do keep the FoW's because our role ain't the aggro route in this MU and you want to counter a protected SFM into Batterskull as well as Mindscensor in response to NO and the T2 KotR.

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Originally Posted by BlackStarDeceiver

Mindscensor Maverick can be hard to combat, as you will have to take care of MoR to keep burn useable, KotR because he just beats face fast enough to race Progenitus and Teeg/Mindscensor.

Make sure to Vendilion before NO, as this mostly is enough to safely resolve NO (and actually find Prog) and win. Otherwise you have no choice other than keeping 1 red open to Bolt / Grim the Scensor or to have FoW backup.

Submerge is huge in the board, maybe a Metachoice over the 4th Blast and/or Trygons in the board. It's definately winnable, but Maverick tends to get the "nut hand" (at least it looks like it to most other decks) more often then we do.

Our Maindecks are nearly the same. I rotate with Daze and Grim in the 2 slots as a meta call and got 1 Scanvenging Ooze over goyf, who wins the Maverick MU alone if untouched.

I do keep the FoW's because our role ain't the aggro route in this MU and you want to counter a protected SFM into Batterskull as well as Mindscensor in response to NO and the T2 KotR.

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Aven Mindcensor is actually not that hard to deal with in my experience since you can usually see it coming miles ahead. It's still one of their best weapons against us though. The only cards you really care about in this matchup are Aven Mindcensor, Mirran Crusader, Mother Of Runes because it protects those guys and sometimes Knight Of The Reliquary and Stoneforge Mystic. The good thing for you is that they can't do anything about your Natural Orders except for trying to race it or flashing in Aven Mindcensor when you can't deal with it. Mirran Crusader still dies to Fire // Ice, Lightning Bolt and Grim Lavamancer and Fire // Ice can also tap down Knight Of The Reliquary.
As you already said yourself, Submerge is huge here. What I don't see is how you need that many Red Elemental Blasts. It's not as strong against blue decks as it used to be because now they have more than just blue spells you want to deal with. I like some Spell Pierces to counter their Wrath Of Gods and other removal. Spell Pierce still deals with Jace, The Mind Sculptor, their countermagic and important Brainstorms.
Further, keeping in Force Of Will is an idea to help you cast Natural Order earlier and more reliably through Aven Mindcensor while also being able to counter the occasional Wing Shards and prevent them from racing you. How do you board against Maverick?
And how do you like the Scavenging Ooze? This is something I though about before and I actually had it in my sideboard but in my experience it was usually too slow.

Ooze is amazing, nealry pick him up 3/4 times over Goof. Red Blast is in there because im still constructing and testing, but it's the weakest spot ;) Probably switching for Grims, gotta rework the whole SB anyways.

Ooze is stellar in a lot of matchups, but is extremely mana intensive. From my experience, if you don't have acceleration he can be awfully slow and vulnerable. I don't think he is competing with Goyf for a maindeck slot, but I would recommend him as a sideboard Zenith target at least. Ooze improves the dredge and Cephalid/4 Horseman matchups with a small SB space commitment.

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus

3 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Daze
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Natural Order
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor

SB
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Trygon Predator
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm

This is the list I have been testing. Thus far, it has been sick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jona

It's not overly important but a strong and versatile card. Plus the deck is lacking space for more. I might actually go up to three, but I don't know what to cut from my current list anymore. I even considered cutting a Tarmogoyf or two but I don't want to focus too much on the Natural Order plan. Being able to execute a somewhat normal Next Level Thresh game is actually quite important against most aggro decks (but Fire // Ice is not bad against these decks either).

And your right, I should have mentioned the vigilance trick, probably in the last section. I'm going to write something about the game I drew on Sunday, as the board state was really interesting and when I tanked, at least five people told me there was no way I could win. In fact, there was no way I could lose.




Interesting report. Also nice to see that you picked up this deck, we should play a few games again (testing against Hive Mind?). Anyway, how did you like Umezawa's Jitte in your sideboard? In my experience it was often not strong enough as this deck doesn't have too many creatures. Also, how did you like Trygon Predator? What are you looking to beat with it, and isn't it too slow for that role? If it's for Affinity, I know for sure that Energy Flux just beats them, but if Trygon Predator is better, tell me.




I'm running Surgical Extraction as well, but I'm not sure if it's necessary. I don't face graveyard based decks or combo decks very often. It has worked quite well so far though, and it won me some games other pieces of graveyard hate wouldn't have won. Having something to exile your opponent's entire graveyard is still quite useful, so I think I'll stick to Relic Of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt for the third slot.


About the interesting gamestate that came up on Sunday:

It was my opponents turn. He had three lands, a Germ token with Batterskull and a Stoneforge Mystic. My board was just two lands plus a Dryad Arbor. Hed had two cards in hand, I had Natural Order, Natural Order, Fire // Ice, Lightning Bolt. He was at 21, I was at 15. He attacked with both of his creatures and time was called in his turn. He was quite sure he would win. I took five, he went to 25. I drew a land for my turn and cast Natural Order, it resolved. I got Progenitus and he said the game was a draw.

What would you do in that situation?

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I thought the scenario merited a response. It depends a lot on what my next draw step is. I'd pass and hope he draws semi-blanks for the next two turns (nothing that can add a ton of pressure, no Countermagic/Clique), though, that's for sure.

On my next turn I see these choices (assuming double-red in play, otherwise you lose every double-burn scenario to needing to draw a red-source in addition):

Draw any non-arbor land (any green land depending on available mana). Attack with Progenitus, Natural Order again for Vigilance, let him do whatever, swing again next turn and burn him out for exactsies. Active counter turns things back into a draw if not accompanied by another rip.

Any burn. Attack with Progenitus, Ice the Germ, Attack again and burn him out.

GSZ. Two options again. A)Zenith out a Goyf, attack with Progenitus. If he attacks back, Goyf kills the Germ and the opponent goes to 19. If he attacks with both SFM and Germ, you're fine. Attack with Goyf and Progenitus, burn him out. If you expect him to keep SFM back to block like he should, the game is a draw. Instead, GSZ for Arbor, attack with Progenitus. If he attacks back, block the 'skull and Fire your token and him (24). Now a burn-spell, Hierarch, or another Zenith do enough off the top.

Goyf. Play it, hope he attacks with both his guys or you draw a second burnspell next turn (Bolt him eot this turn with the mana not used for Goyf to make sure that works).

Hierarch. cast Hierarch, swing with Prog. Ice the Germ, Swing with Prog, Bolt.

Cantrip. This is fine hitting either a Fetch or a burn spell. Follow either the scenario for drawing burn or the one for GSZ, treating the Fetch + cantrip as Zenith for 1.

Blank on either draw step or cantrip. Attack with Progenitus, Ice the Germ, hope Ice or your next draw step will show you more burn.

I think these are all the options. Essentially you can't win if you draw FoW/Clique here and if the opponent has anything after you draw your out, it turns the game back into a draw or puts you back onto the "draw burn" plan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

SB
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Trygon Predator
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm

This is the list I have been testing. Thus far, it has been sick.

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Pretty much the same list i am running at the moment, just haven't made the change of -1 FoW for +1 GSZ even though it seems really reasonable and well thought out. -1 Goof Md for 1 Ooze maindeck as we have a lot of strong Dredge players around and the whole metagame is infested with KotR, where Ooze helps a lot as well.

How do you do against StoneBlade decks with your SB? Are those 2 Grudges enough? And i find myself often having troubles in chosing what to side out, any suggestions?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlackStarDeceiver

Pretty much the same list i am running at the moment, just haven't made the change of -1 FoW for +1 GSZ even though it seems really reasonable and well thought out. -1 Goof Md for 1 Ooze maindeck as we have a lot of strong Dredge players around and the whole metagame is infested with KotR, where Ooze helps a lot as well.

How do you do against StoneBlade decks with your SB? Are those 2 Grudges enough? And i find myself often having troubles in chosing what to side out, any suggestions?

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Stoneblade is a retardedly easy match up. I go -2 Fire/Ice (Play) or -2 Daze (if you are on the Draw) -2 MM -1 Goyf +1 Ancient Grudge +3 Blast +1 Trygon. Just resolve a Natural Order and they will lose fast. Bolt and Cliques should be saved to break up their SFM package.

The only thing to be worried about is that some lists play a Wrath or two, you can usually just Clique it away, or Daze it. Force+Blasts also help.

That's about the point. People here start playing 2-3 Wrath main and the rest in the board to fight Maverick & co. Maybe i'll go up to 4 Cliques again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlackStarDeceiver

That's about the point. People here start playing 2-3 Wrath main and the rest in the board to fight Maverick & co. Maybe i'll go up to 4 Cliques again.

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In that case take out a Ponder for another Force, and leave in the Dazes.

Scanvenging Ooze is just sick. I play now 3 surgical extraction and the ooze as GY hate in the SB.
I don't like to loose to loam or dredge (which is common in my meta) and you will probably see more with the nice manaless dredge list doing well vs. UW and many other decks. The 3 extraction can also be used versus hive minds intution or other combo decks where bolt is useless.

the deck is sick i just won a mox emerald with no rug, I ripped apart my meta. I haven't felt like this since survival era.