[Deck] RG Hate

Didn't quite know what else to call it, I've messed around with a lot of different pieces to this deck, but it mostly remains the same.
This essentially LD with Burn. You hope for a turn 3 Plow Under/Slogger/Planeswalker to flip to board quickly in your favor.


//Lands
4x Karplusan Forest
4x Stomping Ground
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Arid Mesa
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Forest
3x Mountain
2x Treetop Village
1x Sacred Foundry


//Creatures
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Arc-Slogger
4x Bloodbraid Elf


//Spells
2x Koth of the Hammer
1x Chandra, the Firebrand
4x Blood Moon
4x Boom // Bust
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Plow Under
3x Lightning Helix


//Sideboard
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Firespout
2x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Magus of the Moon
2x Thrun, the Last Troll


I'm still play testing, especially the sideboard choices, with this deck. I'm posting it here for feedback and thoughts.

I find it odd that a deck labelled "Rg Hate" does not have a single copy of Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon anywhere in its 75 when the format looks to be defined by Ravnica duals, Shadowmoor filter lands, and 12Post.

I have(to me at least) enough land hate (Ghost Quarter, Stone Rain, Beast Within, Plow Under) that I didn't think it was necessary, though I have thought about it.
The question is...where do I stick it then, to test it out, and for what do I take out with it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

I find it odd that a deck labelled "Rg Hate" does not have a single copy of Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon anywhere in its 75 when the format looks to be defined by Ravnica duals, Shadowmoor filter lands, and 12Post.

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That's the #1 thing that sticks out to me but #2 is the lack of Burning-Tree Shaman. And the #3 thing is how incredibly threat light this is. You have 7 win conditions... 7. I can probably beat you to death with the token you're giving me from Beast Within before you stick a win-con.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

That's the #1 thing that sticks out to me but #2 is the lack of Burning-Tree Shaman. And the #3 thing is how incredibly threat light this is. You have 7 win conditions... 7. I can probably beat you to death with the token you're giving me from Beast Within before you stick a win-con.

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Refer to my above post about the lack of Blood Moon/Magnus of the Moon. I have enough land hate w/o out. at least i think. again(since no one has answered) what would i remove for one of the two? and why would i?

I debated Burning tree shaman, but i decided against it, GREAT card, but it hurts me if i use arc-slogger, not a big deal but i didn't want to deal with it. like i said, maybe it would be nice in the SB to deal with combo.

The whole point is to overwhelm you early with something big(Arc-Slogger/Plow Under by turn 3), it's still a work in progress. I wanted to post it to get constructive criticism; please don't assume I didn't think about staples in R/G decks. I've tried multiple variants of R/G in a list and some light testing. this ended being the most consistent/successful.

Maybe i get rid of the stone rain for Blood moon and Plow under for Burning Tree? it becomes less land hate but maybe it works faster?

lookin for ideas not: why aren't you running x/y/z staple, are you dumb?

Molten Rain>Stone Rain. RR shouldnt be hard for this deck to get with 4 birds and 8 RG lands. Also, Moldervine Cloak may help with your threat density. Turns birds into 3/4 and can be dredged back up. I ran it in gruul back in the day.

I don't think pinpoint land destruction is ask good as blanket land denial, and I'm especially incredulous of using Beast Within as a land destruction spell when Molten Rain and Boom//Bust are in the format and seem better suited to that purpose. Even Acidic Slime seems worth looking at because it beats down.

The problem I can see with this deck is that you start blowing up lands on maybe turn two but likely turn three, and then you kind of mess around with bad topdecks and pinging their land base while they hit you with Nacatls and Tarmogoyfs. I think shaving into the land destruction theme, cutting a lot of the top-heavy cards, and adding stuff like Bloodbraid Elf will help improve the deck's mid- and late-game. I would want something like Fulminator Mage over Stone Rain (the former attacks and the latter doesn't), the Punishing Fires engine over Beast Within (Fires is better MD removal and is at worst a very slow way to kill them), and Magus/Blood Moon as a way to shut off lands. I think decks have a harder time dealing with a Moon effect knocking them off colored mana than having random lands destroyed, and 12Post is definitely hurt worse by Magus than one-for-one LD because the deck will likely have few ways to make on-color mana under an active Moon (barring a mono-green version).

As it is, your deck seems bad. I don't see how you really beat aggro because their curves are generally low, allowing them to shrug off LD. You might beat 12Post, but it seems really draw dependent, and even if you obliterate their mana early in the game your threat density is super low and you have no library manipulation. You probably beat GreedyMcGreederson_multicolor_midrange.deck, but again your deck can just lose to itself because it draws a bunch of LD and random burn spells and can't put the game away.

So yeah, I would definitely reconsider your position on Moon effects.

For quick reference how i would start to get this going (which i wont):


4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
--> To be sure to have 3 Mana on Turn 2

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
-> Landing a Moon effect can be devastating, so having 8 of them gives you a great chance to have it on your Hand by turn 2 (and then be able to play it if you have hit one of the manadorks on turn 1)

4 Stone Rain
-> I think you still need to be able to remove, for example a Basic land, even if you land a Moon. By the way the cost of 1RR from Molten Rain is suboptimal. If you have a Hierarch (and not a Bird), you can't cast it on Turn 2 (!)

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Forked Bolt
-> Cheap and fast removal is needed, cause u might yourself be operating under pressure by an aggressive opponent, you will need to be able to take out what your opponent might have dropped on Turn 1 (and maybe Turn2)

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Tarmogoyf
-> Basically can win the game




This is just a rough sketch, nothing fancy, but it should give an idea how one could test out to go for his opponents Manabase in Modern. Sure this needs some adjustment or some addition, but as i said, its just a rough sketch.

I was thinking RG LD might be the way to go since there will be a lack of good early counters and in a format with very greedy mana bases.

You mainly have to deal with fast aggro (which is land light) and combo (which goldfishes around 3-4-5).

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Boom // Bust
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Molten Rain
4 Stone Rain
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Stomping Ground
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Sword of War and Peace
1 Blood Moon
3 Forked Bolt
3 Raging Ravine
SB: 4 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 4 Firespout
SB: 3 Blood Moon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

You have 7 win conditions... 7. I can probably beat you to death with the token you're giving me from Beast Within before you stick a win-con.

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Sig'd

I am happy to see Plow Under used... very underrated and powerful card

After reading, and thinking more about it, you're super correct, and I'm going to revise the deck a bit, based on the ideas given out.
I still want to keep Arc-Slogger and Plow Under in the MD cause i think they are very good when they hit the board.
I thought alot about Noble Hierarch but she doesn't tap for red and if my lands aren't red in any way, I'm kinda screwed. At the same time Wall of Roots also doesn't, but it's a 0/5 wall at best that can handle early agro if i draw badly.
That being said, the changes are as below and will be updated in the OP.


//Lands
4x Karplusan Forest
4x Stomping Ground
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Arid Mesa
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Forest
2x Mountain
4x Raging Ravine


//Creatures
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Wall of Roots
4x Arc-Slogger
4x Bloodbraid Elf
2x Thrun, the Last Troll


//Spells
4x Blood Moon
4x Molten Rain
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Forked Bolt
4x Plow Under


//Sideboard
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Firespout
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Magus of the Moon
2x Trinisphere

I'm still undecided about the SB, need help with that.
any thoughts on the revised addition?

I don't know if/when permission strategies will become relevant, but Vexing Shusher or Thrunn might be relevant cards. I might even run Thrunn over the slums (and that's coming from someone who loved those cards in standard Gruul decks).

FML - I wrote up a nice, involved post and then got database error'd when I went to submit it.

Anyway, I think you want some Koths. You have 6 natural Mountains, and the potential for a bunch more under Blood Moon. 4/4s are nothing to sneeze at, and his ultimate just kills them.

Similarly, you may want to look at M12 Chandra or either of the two Garruks. Chandra forking Plow Unders seems godly, but outside of that she's pretty meh. Little Garruk gives you a mana boost in the midgame when you want to be casting an LD spell and something else every turn, and he makes dudes when you don't need him to do that. Big Garruk shits dudes all over the place and can very quickly run away with the board, but I'm not sold on GGG in a deck with Moon and a ton of nonbasics. Still, if not Koth, I'd look at trying one of the 'walkers in your colors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

FML - I wrote up a nice, involved post and then got database error'd when I went to submit it.

Anyway, I think you want some Koths. You have 6 natural Mountains, and the potential for a bunch more under Blood Moon. 4/4s are nothing to sneeze at, and his ultimate just kills them.

Similarly, you may want to look at M12 Chandra or either of the two Garruks. Chandra forking Plow Unders seems godly, but outside of that she's pretty meh. Little Garruk gives you a mana boost in the midgame when you want to be casting an LD spell and something else every turn, and he makes dudes when you don't need him to do that. Big Garruk shits dudes all over the place and can very quickly run away with the board, but I'm not sold on GGG in a deck with Moon and a ton of nonbasics. Still, if not Koth, I'd look at trying one of the 'walkers in your colors.

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That sucks :(
Damn I didn't even notice new Shandra, that could be boss with any of the LD/Burn
i did look at Koth, i like him alot.
and the Garruks are nice, but i think Shandra/Koth compliment the deck a bit more than Big Garruk.
But what do i take out for them, if i chose to run them?

- 3 Lightning Bolt
- 2 Thrun, The Last Troll
- 1 Arc Slogger
- 4 Wall of Roots

+ 3 Koth of the Hammer
+ 4 Noble Hierarch
+ 3 Lightning Helix

4 Arc Slogger is too much. I'd much rather have heirarchs than wall of roots. In conjunction with birds, you're almost guaranteed turn 1 accel. Bloodbraid can come down as early as turn 3 and get pumped. Lightning Helix gives you some breathing room against aggro until you land a Koth. Thrun is a sideboard card. I'd take out a Raging Ravine for a single Sacred Foundry. 4 Comes into play tapped Manlands is more than I'm comfortable with, and Koth has that covered anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruticus

- 3 Lightning Bolt
- 2 Thrun, The Last Troll
- 1 Arc Slogger
- 4 Wall of Roots

+ 3 Koth of the Hammer
+ 4 Noble Hierarch
+ 3 Lightning Helix

4 Arc Slogger is too much. I'd much rather have heirarchs than wall of roots. In conjunction with birds, you're almost guaranteed turn 1 accel. Bloodbraid can come down as early as turn 3 and get pumped. Lightning Helix gives you some breathing room against aggro until you land a Koth. Thrun is a sideboard card. I'd take out a Raging Ravine for a single Sacred Foundry. 4 Comes into play tapped Manlands is more than I'm comfortable with, and Koth has that covered anyway.

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That pretty much turns the deck tri color, which i was trying to avoid.but i had forgotten about Lightning Helix,which i've always liked. i'll give it some play testing.
thanks.

It's more of a splash, really. Between 8 mana dorks, 4 Bloodbraids and two fetches for Foundry you should be okay. I'd consider cutting a second Ravine for an open slot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sporenfrosch1411

Stone Rain; I think you still need to be able to remove, for example a Basic land, even if you land a Moon. By the way the cost of 1RR from Molten Rain is suboptimal. If you have a Hierarch (and not a Bird), you can't cast it on Turn 2

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+1

EDIT: I'd give Boom // Bust some testing, too. You can cast boom targeting your own fetch/quarter and one of your opponent's lands. Sac it, then pass priority. The fetch resolves, you search your library for a basic land, reveal it, and put it into play. You also have the option of Bust for Armageddon.

This what I'm currently play testing with, though now it feels more like zoo than it did initially

//Lands
4x Karplusan Forest
4x Stomping Ground
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Arid Mesa
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Forest
2x Mountain
3x Raging Ravine
1x Sacred Foundry


//Creatures
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Arc-Slogger
4x Bloodbraid Elf


//Spells
2x Koth of the Hammer
1x Chandra, the Firebrand
4x Blood Moon
4x Boom // Bust
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Plow Under
3x Lightning Helix


//Sideboard
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Firespout
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Magus of the Moon
2x Thrun, the Last Troll


Any thoughts if i should re name what the deck is?
It's still land hate mixed with burn
and what about the sideboard?

Why Forked Bolt? What one- or two-toughness things are you trying to kill at sorcery speed? Just maxing out on Lightning Bolts seems better.

Also, why Raging Ravine? That cards seems a little too slow for the format, and might be better as extra basic lands.

EDIT: If you decide to commit to white (and I don't see why you'd need to), Ajani Vengeant becomes an option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Why Forked Bolt? What one- or two-toughness things are you trying to kill at sorcery speed? Just maxing out on Lightning Bolts seems better.

Also, why Raging Ravine? That cards seems a little too slow for the format, and might be better as extra basic lands.

EDIT: If you decide to commit to white (and I don't see why you'd need to), Ajani Vengeant becomes an option.

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im just trying the white splash for helix
and you're right, i should just max out bolt
ravine was just a nice land creature?
i could forget it for basics, it was just a thought, a mishra/treep top village land if you will

I don't think Ravine is that awesome. It's basically five mana to make a 3/3 that turns into a 4/4 when it attacks, but it has no evasion and is vulnerable to Bolt, Helix, and Path to Exile in response to the attack trigger. Compare that to Creeping Tar Pit, which is at least unblockable; Celestial Colonnade, which has a permanent +1 toughness and is mostly unblockable; or Mutavault, which is a 2/2 with no evasion but basically costs two to attack (1 and tapping itself).

I would want to look at more basics or additional fetches in those slots. An extra Forest seems like a good idea to help you consistently operate under a Blood Moon (yours or someone else's) without needing a bunch of fragile 0/1 mana dorks, and more Mountains for Koth seems like a good idea as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

I don't think Ravine is that awesome. It's basically five mana to make a 3/3 that turns into a 4/4 when it attacks, but it has no evasion and is vulnerable to Bolt, Helix, and Path to Exile in response to the attack trigger. Compare that to Creeping Tar Pit, which is at least unblockable; Celestial Colonnade, which has a permanent +1 toughness and is mostly unblockable; or Mutavault, which is a 2/2 with no evasion but basically costs two to attack (1 and tapping itself).

I would want to look at more basics or additional fetches in those slots. An extra Forest seems like a good idea to help you consistently operate under a Blood Moon (yours or someone else's) without needing a bunch of fragile 0/1 mana dorks, and more Mountains for Koth seems like a good idea as well.

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ah mutavault is what i was thinking

but ya i think you're right, going back to 2x forest 3x mountain would be good, still play testing
debating if i should go to 1 koth 1 chanrda and 1 garruk, but i think the 2 koth and 1 chandra works well

what do you think of the SB? i was thinking the idea of it would be turn the deck more agroy/anti creature as the LD and burn can deal with combo and control decks

Firespout, Grips, possibly Thorn of Amethyst or Trinisphere to help with combo.

I dunno what you're weak to aside from aggro.

well i have the current SB posted, i kinda like it, not 100% set in stone obviously
the firespout and revoker are kinda givens, imo.
you really think i need to go more anti combo even with LD?

Yesterday, I've been testing a bit this Land destruction list:


Lands: (painful) 20
2 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Arid Mesa
3 Verdant Catacomb
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry

Accelerators: 8
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Mana denial: 12
4 Beast Within
4 Boom/Bust
4 Molten Rain

Creatures: 11
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Planeswalkers: 5
3 Ajani Vengeant
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Burn: 4
4 Lightning Bolt


From what I could see, Molten Rain is too difficult to play, I will come back to Stone Rain probably. Bloodbraid and GSZ do not work well together (well I could have told it before), but it's not that much a problem. When you know that Bloodbraid can cascade into Boom/Bust and play Bust, I think it's necessary. About GSZ, on turn 1, it's almost as good as Noble but later in the game it can search for something else. However I've been quite disappointed with Knight. It was rarely bigger than Tarmogoyf. But, I guess it's because it can become really strong after a late game Bust. Also it can pumps itself or generate mana, so I'll keep it and hope it shows better in the future. 1 tutorable Deus of Calamity might be a good idea too.

I'm curious what Primal Command could do for this threat-lite deck. You only have 11 creatures (plus Garruk) but I think Primal Command would be pretty hot in this setup.

I'm a little curious why no one (at least that i haven't seen) has mentioned Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows. I suppose Grim Lavamancer is good, but he can have a negative effect on Goyf. Grove/Fires gets online a lot faster, too, considering Grim needs fetches/GQ's/played cards to feed him.

Land destruction decks have always been a little bad at taking care of smaller dorks...so I think the Firespout option is spot on Tearnov. Grove/Fires has the added benefit of not being killed by Firespout like Grim Lavamancer would be.

I think it looks like most of the format will be blank to moon effects, which means 3 colours and grove+punishing fire is out of the picture in that direction. At least I would go with moons with this deck, packing LD spells and some planeswalkers sure has potential, but then you should just play Big Zoo.

However locking your opponent out with a moon and dropping Garruk, the Primal Hunter or another must answer threat seems like where this deck could go.
Bombs: Deus of Calamity, Koth of the Hammer and there are probably more of those.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by muscleb

I think it looks like most of the format will be blank to moon effects, which means 3 colours and grove+punishing fire is out of the picture in that direction.

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Why? You're already in red with bolts and maybe Punishing Fires maindeck...that takes care of Magus of the Moon just fine. Blood Moon would need to be countered (so splash blue for Mana Leak) or you bring in Krosan Grips/Nature's Claim from the sideboard. People keep claiming that blue isn't that good in modern, but Moon effects pretty much GUARANTEE that someone will be bringing counterspells (myself included)

Regardless, when playing R/G, Moon effects are either: something YOU should be playing (with a high count of basic forests), or it's something you can deal with or work around easily.

Play tested some more, decided to nix the Ravaging Ravine for Treetop Village.
Still tinkering with the mana base and SB