The EPIC Storm
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The EPIC Storm
http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/da...ptyWarrens.jpg
To find more information on The EPIC Storm please visit:
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Interesting turn of events! I wonder how this SB will do.
EDIT: In the Chalice-match up, you side out 8 cards but you side in 7 cards.
I agree on the small percentages SDT gives away against aggro decks, but you seem to overestimate it. The difference in average goldfish speed is about only of half a turn, and there isn't any goldfish decks in legacy anymore. When Maverick can now reliably cast a hate bear on turn 2 I'd better have SDT or DD to find my (often main deck) answers to it. And of course we still can go off before they land it whether with DD or with EtW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I thought it would be obvious, but no we do not use shelldock isle against a deck that plays wasteland and stifle. You beat blue decks by "playing slowly" like you say and go off once you have the edge on their hand.
Pass the turn piles have always had marginal uses but it is sometimes the best play. Obviously not when this is going to kill you.
You clearly lack experience with the deck so I advise you to either practice with it or cut that paragraph from your opening post.
Are you just using Inquisition of Kozilek because it removes U/w Stoneblade's non-Force of Will counters, Vendillion Clique and Snapcaster Mage in addition to G/w Maverick's hate bears instead of Deathmark to address the rise in hate bears? I usually find the problem isn't discarding their hate bears pre-emptively but removing their hate bears retro-actively is where the deck struggles, and while Inquisition of Kozilek has clear utility Wipe Away and Echoing Truth aren't really worth the miser singleton for Counterbalance or the mana inefficieny for Chalice of the Void compared to Death Mark or Chain of Vapor (especially considering Thalia makes (1)1UU and 1(1U) untenable). Non creature based hate, with the exception of Enlightened Tutor for Thorn of Amethyst, isn't very popular right now so it's probably wise to either run the better bounce card in Chain of Vapor and rely on Burning Wish -> Shattering Spree for Chalice of the Void or just run a direct answer for hate bears?
While I too disagree with quite a bit of what you said about DD, Overall a great update Bryant. Inquisition in particular, very interesting.
That's fine, you can disagree. I believe what I said is accurate, although, arguing over something small like this shouldn't be the focus of a new thread. I'm expecting people to be not very receptive to Inquisition as people in my local gaming store were not.Quote:
Originally Posted by leegoo
This was discussed a bit in the last thread, I like to play the most versatile cards possible. There's often Chalice of the Void in the metagames where I play, meaning, I play Echoing Truth over Chain of Vapor. If there's no Chalices in your local Metagame feel free to play Chain, but I cannot. While I like Deathmark it doesn't provide enough roles right now for me to play it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I can see Inquisition over Thoughtsieze in the current meta for sure, but why not the 4th duress and 3 Inquisition in the board? It's a bit worse against the aggro matchups, but having access to it g1 off a wish seems to be worth such a small sacrifice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
The only card Inquisition doesn't hit in this format that TES cares about is Force of Will. There's already 8 maindeck cards devoted to beating Force of Will. I think the extra card devoted to beating Gaddock Teeg and the new enemy in Thalia is more important.Quote:
Originally Posted by leegoo
i am really liking the proactive idea of inquisition over the reactive nature of pyroblast/reb. the whole idea of this deck is to provoke situations that are difficult for your opponent to answer, so with that i think inquisition will be a fantastic addition to this 75 and i will be giving it a whirl this coming wednesday at our local legacy tourney.
is infest > pyroclasm? i don't think i caught the debate regarding this card choice in the previous thread.
Read my article from this week.Quote:
Originally Posted by n0mad
basically, pyroclasm can't kill mother of runes + hate bear. Infest can.Quote:
Originally Posted by n0mad
Now that you've mentioned Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, is Infest really an upgrade from Silent Departure as Wish target? I mean with Thalia in play, you should be holding rituals to successfully cast Infest, because it rarely happens that you have access to 4 lands. It's interesting to see this deck can bring in Inquisitions post-board but if Thalia hits the board, wasting rituals on a hatebear seems like it's not a great idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I just feel as if we're beginning to beat a dead horse at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by death
Infest deals with Mother of Ruins and a hatebear. It's better than straight up losing the game. In my testing yesterday I was in two positions where Infest straight up won me the game, it was good.
Inquisition is an interesting card, the main reason it's in there is for HATEBEARS people, keep dreaming about stripping FoW from their hand. The card is brought in in matchups where the opponent lacks FoW, so it's a strict upgrade to duress considering it nabs hatebears in hand while duress doesn't along with chant still being abyssmal against nonblue decks typically. I never really liked pyroblast that much, and proactive disruption beats reactive in combo.
You can either run infest or virtue's ruin, but virtue's ruin doesn't kill scavenging ooze, which is sometimes relevant as them untapping with ooze usually turns off PiF and IGG.
On doomsday, the deck is fundamentally slower than TES but in exchange you get a somewhat better manabase with basic(s) and you can grind out blue decks very well with sensei's top, which is essentially a duress as well as a great card filter because if the opponent doesn't force top, you will find a duress with top barring some really god awful topdecks with top + fetchlands.
Dark ritual into infest seems fine. It's a lot better than the alternative, which is just losing to thalia and probably knight of the reliquary beating you down. The only other way to play through thalia requires several turns of setting up your artifact mana, making it susceptible to qasali pridemage. I'd prefer not to play through a thalia with a deck not named spiral tide.
While it doesn't take Force, Inquisition can sometimes take their only card to pitch to Force, creating the occasional effective 2-for-1.
In related news, I just placed an order last night for 1 Infest, 4 Inquisition of Kozilek, and 20 Unglued Goblin tokens. (I'll be retiring my Scars Goblin tokens, which have served well.)
Maybe I just can't math but... Dark Ritual for Infest seems really difficult to accomplish?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
Example:
*Board state* Opponent has Thalia and Mother of Runes.
We have to have... 3 Lands and a Dark Ritual and Infest to kill two guys? Dark rit +1 Infest + 1 (Thalia)
is that the best we have? o.O
I like how every time you've made a new TES thread, the same bullshit from the last thread resets and starts all over again.
Basically what I'm saying is that the core of this deck hasn't changed in like 3-4 years, and people need to stop trying to reinvent the wheel and just conform to it, it works.
We play TES because we are rock n' roll, not teen idols like ANT players, nor do we like to talk about how deep and sentimental bluegrass is, and how you really have to give the obscure and traditional artists instead of the mainstream bluegrass peeps like the Doomsday players do. And we definitely don't like classical music like those lame and boring High Tide players. Basically what I'm saying is that TES likes to party, the rest of the storm decks are boring and lame.
Lastly, try new ideas instead of rehashing old and dead topics like Personal Tutor and that kind of shit.
Lot of time I don't post...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I've read the report.
That happened to me too. I couldn't be lieve it. Loosing to U/W decks.
Related to inquisition, I dont agree because of it either can't stop Mind break trap. I just simply prefer T.Seize.(maybe in contradiction...)
Related to the list. I died just once to A.N. and was because It shown the other A.N. therefore I play only 1 A.N. from now on. Sorry but I'm programmer.That is also the reason of playing 4 crhome mox remember! 9 Threads are enough not counting Tendrils.
My other slot is 1 preordain. Not the best card however you are in contradiction when you side out I.T for 2nd and third games, in this case I use the Perfect Card To Side Out tha is .. preordain!
I also tested PiF main deck but didn't like.
I still prefer the pyroblast set but I'm testing the idea of adding even more Chant effects, (I'm evaluating the possibility of adding Suppression I've finished to evaluate it I decidily I'm not going to play it, I'll try first more 1 cost Chan effects by the moment...)To simply stop them from playing anything.
Infest is too espensive in my opinion to play it.
Ideas, Suggestions, Onions, any Onion?
I'm playing with a Spanish foil Infest (forcibly). And have 3/4 foil Inquisitions of Kozilek on their way.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
What a wonderful day.
I'll be rocking the setup for SCG Des Moines.
On a more serious note, I like IoK because it proactively takes care of these cards (and doesn't create awkward situations with Pyroblast and LED or when you need an extra land to cast it):
Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster Mage, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Ethersworn Canonist, etc.
Taking a SFM from UW is a pretty sick play. Turns them into a really bad Landstill deck.
I've always preferred Thoughtseize/Inquisition to Duress game 2-3. But, Duress is considerably better against U, or more so FoW. I'd feel more comfortable with a 1-3 split between Duress and Inquisition in the side. Sometimes Burning Wish into Duress is a critical play..
a friend of mine suggested playing Massacre over Infest. You can play it on two mana or with just a dark ritual. Which seems better than pyroclasm and infest for the maverick situation..
Thoughts?
Unfortunately, Massacre cannot be cast with Gaddock Teeg in play, which is probably pretty significant.Quote:
Originally Posted by n0mad
The point is that you CAN kill thalia with 3 lands + infest, news flash we run 13 land so getting 4 in play is hard especially when the opponent runs wasteland. Or you can sit there with 3 lands while the opponent beats you down and you just lose, in fact losing sounds a lot better than winning in a tournament setting because then I can go out and have a smoke, get some food, and not have to think about anything. Yeah. That sounds so much better than grapeshotting someone for 60 damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by n0mad
Gaddock teeg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Massacre. True story, massacre was invalidated as soon as teeg saw print and started to see legacy play. Massacre was further invalidated when the GSZ --> Gaddock teeg play was created in maverick. I wouldn't be caught dead running massacre in any deck in legacy right now. If it cost 3, oh god yes I would absolutely adore the card and call it the best anti hatebear card in magic but as it stands the card is jank.
I agree completely with Lorddotm on the same crap getting rehashed every single time a new thread is created. Maybe people don't read the opening post, but there's a list of cards that didn't make the cut. Sure it doesn't list every card ever tested, but it lists the decent cards that didn't make it. If you can't tell why a card isn't in Bryant's list, it's probably because it has been tested and then shelved for another superior card. Preordain is worse than ponder. Plunge into darkness is a heaping pile of crap. Slithermuse isn't good enough. Doomsday is awful in decks with only 8 cantrips. Cabal ritual hurts more than rite of flame when flipped with ad nauseam and is often worse than rite of flame, example being you have 2 cabal ritual/2 rite of flame in hand. Which do you prefer? Rite of flame, since one is a dark ritual in red essentially and if you draw any more they become black lotus and blacker lotus. I can go on and on why certain cards aren't included in TES, but if you can't understand why they aren't included maybe you shouldn't be playing one of the hardest decks to play optimally in the format.
Though Gaddock Teeg > Massacre... Massacre has its own situations where its fantastic. If your opponent has any of the other hatebears out... including Mother of Runes, then Massacre is pretty effective. Its a good wish target.
The following sections can probably be trimmed from the opening post for now:
VI d)
IX a), b), c), e), g), i).
Played today, started 2-0 then lost 2 to U/W. Did end up mulling a lot, and got double wastelanded out one game...
Still used pyroblast, as I need to get foil IoKs, but managed to grab 3 foil ones at my LGS. T1 Inquisition taking stone forge DOES seem a lot better than having to wait till they cast it, or having a dead pyroblast.
Will try using the IoK (3-1 split in SB personally, still a lot of combo in my meta) next time. Or Esperblade since I just finished building it.
You shouldn't ever be running a card just to side it out in games 2 and 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
almost posted something drunkenly enabled. but decided not to try to offend everyone.
Bryant, great ideas, most of the time i found myself wanting to be more proactive anyways(INQ) as the pyroblast was often stranded in my hand waiting to be discarded to an LED (weird lines). the only thing i liked P blast for was blowing up a flipped delver/ countering something kind of irrelevant (weird metagame). def will be trying INQ. Wish I had more time to contribute to theory/ strategy.
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefringthing
If the idea is to have the opening post be as exhaustive as possible, then I demand two paragraphs of sideboarding strategy for Rifter and Leyline Aggro. And 60Islands.dec for that matter. :wink:
Echoing Truth is starting to feel like a staple, rather than a meta choice over Chain of Vapor, especially with Dredge being so prevalent nowadays. Honestly, I'd run Echoing Truth even if Chalice wasn't a card...
I don't get what your goal is here. If they make 11 billion Zombies you should be dead regardless of an Echoing Truth. Are you trying to bounce an Iona? Just board to make your deck the best at killing them and the best at Time Walking them if you don't just have it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
So, basically, just don't board vs. Dredge.
I bring in Echoing Truth against Dredge just to cut Silences, which are pretty unimpactful if Dredge doesn't have the nuts. Chants can save a turn against an army of Zombies, but how often do you get any value out of Silence, Ari?
Running discard in place of Pyroblast in the board seems interesting. I don't know if I necessarily like the board plan you suggested, Bryant, as Orim's Chant/Silence could be considered the best way to disrupt GW decks, especially considering, in response to IoK, E. Tutor->Canonist/Stony Silence; also, Mindbreak Trap (hey, Wescoe was running it). Having six, even seven (I wouldn't cut the SB Duress for an IoK, maybe Thoughtseize though) or eight if you include Grapeshot, potential cards to board in against Maverick seems like it could be pretty got dang good as long as a board plan could be materialized that wouldn't be overly detrimental to the deck's speed (as I wouldn't want to board out any disruption other than the three Duresses). There's a Big 1.5 tournament at my store in one week, so I'll definitely test it out before then.
Nah, it's a meta choice. I'll play it over Chain at my store since the metagame is so varied (and has had a pretty high density of Chalice of the Void decks over the past month or so for some reason), but I definitely feel Chain was the correct choice for the GP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
Silence is absolutely incredible against Dredge, and is an integral part of the overall gameplan against it. Chant/Silence fits very well into a line on the play of turn one hope they can't kill and/or Wit's End you (although, you can always just Silence in response to the casting of LED if need be), turn two Silence on draw step after determining whether or not you'll actually need to Silence (maybe cantripping beforehand with the other land), turn three win. Take Ari's advice and don't board anything out against Dredge unless they're playing Leyline of Sanctity, in which case you should board out Duress, as opposed to a Chant effect, for the necessary bounce. TES needs to be proactively disruptive, rather than reactively disruptive, against Dredge; you shouldn't (in most circumstances) be expending WW to Chant with kicker against an army of Zombies, as you should have already cast it for W on a previous turn to have prevented them from doing anything other than potentially bringing back an Ichorid and making token(s) off of it EOT.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefringthing
Winning the die roll and being able to chantwalk Dredge for x-turns is very strong.
I would much rather Chant-Walk Dredge then let them do things like Cabal Therapy and plan on just bouncing their Zombies after the fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefringthing
If chant's ability to stop them attacking is what you're using it for against Dredge, you're very much doing it wrong.
Since the consensus is clearly that Chant effects are good strategy against Dredge, I'll keep it in mind next time I play them. Either way, I've never had any difficulty against Dredge. They have four relevant cards in their whole deck against us, and we're much faster than they are.
Yeah, if you take out anything against dredge to play defense against their attackers you're doing it wrong. Just chant walk them until you assemble the win, as their entire deck is sorcery based. Chant with kicker against them is very much wrong like Emidln said, as you need to protect your hand from cabal therapy otherwise dredge will tear your hand to shreds in 1-2 turns and you'll be relying on the top of your deck, which isn't any good unless you set it up with brainstorm and have laid down your artifact mana.
Also, leyline of sanctity in dredge? I haven't seen a dredge list packing that card in the SB in ages, at least in the new faithless looting lists. Usually dredge just tries to race us, which they can't do when we chantwalk them and maybe try to land an iona on black.
If chalice of the void wasn't a card, I wouldn't even consider echoing truth in the SB as chain of vapor would be better in almost every case. And it only hits you for one off of ad nauseam versus two, which is a huge difference. I have had ad nauseam's fizzle due to flipping up wipe away, and I always want to tear the card in half afterwards.
Also, Leyline aggro? Do you mean the stupid all leyline's + opalescence + serra's sanctum deck? That deck isn't really a deck, it's just a heaping pile of crap cards that don't do anything on their own.