[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

Primer
By catmint

Overview

BUG Control is an aggro-control deck built around Hymn to Tourach, Snapcaster Mage, Tarmogoyf and Jace, the Mind Sculptor which often utilizes the own life total aggressively to get an advantage/survive the early game and to stabilize with Jace and Goyf in the late game. The primary form or disruption is discard and efficient counter magic.

History:

The traditional control deck of BUG was deedstill, which is a more dedicated control deck without a fast clock but more board control with maindeck pernicious deed. The tempo version of BUG is Team America, which utilizes Stifle, Daze, Wasteland and a greedy manabase to get an early game advantage and to end the game quickly with Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker. After the banning of Mental misstep and the release of Snapcaster Mage BUG control (often mislabeled as Team America) had great results in the SCG circuit as well as in Europe.

Decklists:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=51154
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=51081
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=51357
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=51164

Card Choices:

Besides the obvious 4 Brainstorm and 4 Force of Will I would describe the core as:

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hymn to Tourach
2-4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3-4 pointed discard such as Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek

Hymn to Tourach
Of course the power Level of Hymn is very high and needs no further explanation, but there are some design constraints which need to be considered to make it effective. First, in BUG it does not allow us to play basic lands and second it is only good if followed up by pressure like Jace or Tarmogoyf. Snapcaster Mage increases the power of Hymn to Tourach in control matchups significantly.

Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek
After the banning of mental misstep and the release of Snapcaster mage pointed discard got a lot better. A turn 1 Thoughtseize is again a feared play and “snapping back” a Thoughtseize is a real two for one and can be game breaking.

Spell Snare
It is always powerful to counter a turn 2 play, but with Snapcaster mage being a mid to late game card the overall utility of Spell Snare is increased.

Snapcaster Mage
A lot already written about this card. Just 1 remark for the power in BUG. BUG consists of counter spells, discard, removal, filter and win conditions. Snapcaster is all of that and increases the redundancy and consistency significantly.

Tarmogoyf
Still the best defensive and offensive creature in legacy. Especially when paired with [Thoughtseize] and Hymn he is usually a 4/5 when he comes down.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Decent Planeswalker…

Removal Suite:
4 Maindeck Removal Spells is very common. Snapcaster mage makes 1 mana removal significantly better than 2 mana removal. Snapping back Dismember hurts, but since it is sometimes possible to regulate the damage Dismember is still the best option. Ghastly Demise is the best removal spell versus non-black decks and since black creatures are not that common 1-2 in the maindeck and 4 in the 75 is probably correct. The other typical options Go for the throat, Diabolic Edict or Smother are of course also viable.

Flexible Slots

Sylvan Library
You have the feeling that a control deck is doing something wrong not running Sylvan Library. Since the deck gets trouble keeping up the blue count for Force of Will, often 1-2 Ponder are played instead.

Vendilion Clique
A beloved card of every control player, however it is yet another 3+ mana slot. The very aggressive and evasive body is useful, but the opponents hand can be much better controlled by snapping back discard spells.

Liliana of the Veil
Often found as a 1 of in maindeck and/or sideboard. She cannot replace a removal slot since a lot of creatures have to be killed early, but has the chance to take over the game versus creature based decks.

Unearth
With snapcasters and Tarmogoyfs (+ Vendilion Clique) it can be a real late game bomb. Unearth for snapcaster for unearth for Goyf/snapcaster for xxx,... For that to work a lot has to happen and also Swords to Plowshares spoils the party. So very often Unearth will be just cycled and very often sided out. Since it is not good against creature based decks, aggro and tempo, I do not consider it anymore.

Dark Confidant
In a vacuum probably the most powerful creature. The problem in BUG is that aggressive decks are already a difficult matchup and the self-inflicted damage of (snapped back) Thoughtseize and Dismember result in suicide. I prefer Thoughtseize and Dismember over Bob, because
- these cards are very powerful in a vacuum and important to survive the early game.
- card advantage can be achieved by Hymn to Tourach, Snapcaster mage and Jace
- Since BUG has trouble with aggressive decks, I prefer to play cards which helps against that matchup.

There are however many successful builds out there running Bob. They usually play only 2 Jace, less lands & some amount of Daze. Bob becomes then the primary gameplan and other card choices are influenced by it.

Ancestral Visions
I never tested it, but also did not see it in a build that showed up a good result. Probably too slow, not necessary and no synergy with Snapcaster mage.

Cards that do not have a good synergy with the deck.

Tombstalker
Some tried it and claim that it works as a 2-3 of, however there is not friendship with Snapcaster Mage and the deck does not lack of good finishers.

Daze
Snapcaster Mage needs all the lands in play and you cannot snap it back for alternative costs.

Stifle
Very often a bad top deck in the late game and only really good with Daze in a tempo oriented build.

Manabase
As every good control deck BUG wants to consistently make land drops. Therefore 23-24 lands is optimal. Because of Hymn it is not possible to play basics, which forces us to play through Wastelands. Snapcaster Mage is mana intensive and therefore wastelands are often not played as aggressive as in tempo decks. However Wasteland is so powerful that 3-4 is correct. Riptide Laboratory has a good synergy with Snapcaster mage providing “infinite” utility and blocks and is therefore often included. Since this synergy is very heavy on the mana, the question if it is worth to run this over the 4th Wasteland. Sunken Ruins can help to support 4 colorless lands. For builds low on creatures Creeping tar pit is a very useful addition.

The manabase forces you to consider hate in many matchups and make sure you don’t lose to Back to Basics, Blood Moon or a Wasteland lock with Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam


Sideboard
It is important to spend a lot of sideboard space to aggro and creature based matchups. So board control with additional removal and 3-4 pernicious deed is obligatory. Since Dredge is a bad matchup 4 Leyline of the Void is played commonly, however there are other decks that utilize the graveyard, where 4 Leyline would be weak. Therefore a mix of 3-4 extirpate and surgical extraction and of course the standard GY hate is the alternative. surgical extraction has obviously a good synergy with Snapcaster mage.

Other popular choices are Life from the Loam for the mirror or every deck that can be hurt with wastelands and of course Spell Pierce to have sideboard options versus combo and control.
I don’t want to go into detailed SB planning, but there is one important concept when it comes to the aggro or creature based matchups:

The plan is to make sure you can consistently trade 1 for 1 (or 2 for 1 with Snapcaster) to survive and to kill critical creatures such as Goblin Lackey, Mother of Runes, Lord of Atlantis, Knight of the Reliquary, Phyrexian Revoker, Goblin Piledriver, Quasali Pridemage,... until you can blow them out with a deed and take over with Jace, Liliana or Goyf.

To make sure this plan works you also need pointed discard and counter magic such as Thoughtseize and spell pierce to make sure you are not blown out by choke, back to basics, goblin ringleader, or a spell to kill your deed…
Hymn to Tourach is not very good against aggro since:

1) we often need to kill the creature that is on-board in order to survive and execute our Gameplan (i.e.: playing Hymn while Cursecatcher, mother of runes, goblin lackey, knight of the reliquary,... is on board has little value.)

2) we don't need card advantage in the early game, because we just need to survive to gain a huge advantage later on from Snapcaster, jace and Deed.

2) pointed discard and counter spells are more important to ensure deed works and we are not blown out by Back to Basics, Choke, Pridemage or whatever.

Matchup analysis

Good Matchups:

Most Combo Decks
A lot of (black) disruption followed by a clock is what provides basically a good matchup.
Storm combo variants are weak to BUG.

Entchantress is in a fact a prison deck, but since it needs some special enablers to work, it can be disrupted like a combo deck.

Show & Tell variants or other 2 card combo decks like Aluren, Cephalid Breakfast are a little harder since they often run more disruption of their own and also have the option of splashing red, which helps against Snapcaster and counter magic, because of Pyroblast from the sideboard.

Elves is tough game1, but deed and more removal makes the matchup favorable. If the build is using Vengevine, I would label the matchup only slightly favorable.


Even to Slightly Favorable Matchups

Painted Stone
This combo deck is on the tougher side, since discard is only good if there is no Goblin Welder on the table and they also have some hate in the form of Blood Moon and Pyroblast.

Reanimator
Altough this is a combo deck I find it to be a tough fight. They are fast, have Daze and black disruption. Also our discard is weaker, since they want stuff in their graveyard.

Blade Control
I find this matchup to be very draw and skill dependent. A lot of black disruption in the early rounds can often bring enough advantage. I would not try to be the aggro deck because they can so easily trade with Goyf or even take him with Vedalken Shackles, but rather just win the Jace war. However, then you have to bring in removal and make sure that they don’t play the aggro deck and beat you down with cliques.

Counterbalance variants
The lock definitely hurts, however it should be possible to stop that from happening often enough. With Krosan Grip there is also a very good SB option on curve available.

Stax
The deck has many locks that can win the game, but discard, counter magic, Goyf and Jace turn the matchup slightly in favor I think.

Team America
We run a ton of lands and have a better plan for the late game, but close by nature. ?

Chalice based Stompy decks
Chalice hurts a lot and dragon Stompy has a ton of moon effects. Nevertheless discard, counter magic and deed help and these decks are much less consistent than BUG.

Eva Green
Blue makes the difference…

RUG Control
I think black discard brings the advantage for the control matchup. Punishing Fire can be real pain in the ass though.

RUG Tempo
I think this matchup is also very skill and draw dependant. Key is not to walk into their stifles and to get some lands down. G2 and G3 we need to bring in more removal and deed, where Spell Snare and Force of Will are not good. A lot of removal and deed help to kill the threats and the black disruption works wonders. Thanks to Jace, Snapcaster their odds for the late game are very low.

Slightly unfavorable matchups

Non blue Stoneforge decks like Junk, Deadguy Ale and Team Italia
There are some powerful creatures like Mother, Bob, KoR, Mirran Cruisader,… which give them the edge.
This matchup is all about deed in g2 and 3.

Goblins
Deed and Discard is very reliable against Goblins, which makes the matchup not as unfavorable as it seems.

Affinity
G1 is very hard, but post board deed kills everything plus lands on their side, so the matchup is overall only slightly unfavorable.

Bant aggro
Stoneforge mystic and of course KoR represent serious threats. Their Jace also comes down pretty fast is can be protected with their creatures. This gives a huge advantage on board which has to be matched with discard, deed and removal.
I haven't really tested a lot, but my estimation is that Bant has an advantage.

Maverick
KoR win’s the game alone and BUG can’t beat a Mother in g1. The other hate bears do not make it easier. G2 and 3 is much better with deed and a ton of removal, but they have plenty of stuff to fight that plus choke and sylvan library.


Bad matchups

Basically BUG has problems against every match where Force of Will AND Hymn to Tourach is bad. The following decks have a lot of redundancy and do not care so much about discard, because they beat BUG with what is on the board already.

Merfolk
Well, Lord of Atlantis, Silvergill Adept &Cursecatcher are really strong. They have counter magic and a fast clock to fight deed and of course back to basics to blow us out.

Zoo
Haven’t played a single time against Zoo post MM banning, but by nature the matchup is weak.

Burn
The cheapest deck in the format just beats one of the most expensive ones, because of too much self-inflected damage and cards like Price of Progress. Nothing you can do about that.


Dredge (even worse Manaless Dredge)
G1 is almost unwinnable. Having Leylines is good, but most people try to win with Extirpate effects + Snapcaster Mage to reuse them. This has proven to be winnable g2/g3, but it is still very tough.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/h...ugbanner-1.png

BUG Planeswalkers - Primer

by death

BUG Planeswalkers is a control deck similar to its predecessor UBg Landstill except the Standstill and Mishra's Factory are dropped in favor of Liliana of the Veil and Snapcaster Mage. The printing of decent "Flash" creatures has made Standstill in legacy a less reliable card advantage engine. A major strength of this deck are the maindeck Pernicious Deeds, a card that is not normally seen in Team America-style control decks as it blows up their own Goyfs and Dark Confidants. But, not having a fast clock in the form of Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker may also present as a weakness.

This deck has made a handful of top finishes to brag, not surprisingly it had been mislabeled as Team America:
http://starcitygames.com/scgdc/ Nicholas Spagnolo - 8th Place SCG Open Washington
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/ Marco Cammilluzzi - First Place D-Day V in Italy
http://www.wizards.com/gpind12/ Lewis Laskin - 20th Place GP Indianapolis 2012

Feature Articles:
Analyzing Dark Ascension & the Future Legacy Metagame
Deck Tech: BUG Control with Nicholas Spagnolo
Deck Tech: BUG Control with Lewis Laskin

Sample decklist
// Lands
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
1 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Innocent Blood
1 Life from the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Perish
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Leyline of the Void
4 Blue Elemental Blast


Reason to play the deck
Playing pure control elements puts you on a favorable position against aggro and combo. Against aggro, you should not have any problems if they overextend and you stabilize with Deed and Liliana. Against combo, your pointed discard and counter suite combined with Liliana (or Jace) should be enough to stop them dead in their tracks.

Matchup Analysis
Favorable - Affinity, Elves, Goblins, Merfolk
You play with tons of answers in the form of discard, removal spells and a sweeper (Pernicious Deed). If they don't overextend into your mass removal, Liliana of the Veil would take care of their remaining threats. Affinity is an extremely fast deck but I have never lost to it in testing. Draw enablers in Elves are must-counters, same goes for Aether Vial in tribal decks. Goblins and Merfolk are reduced to playing fair if you take Lackey and Lord effects out of the equation.

Favorable - Reanimator, Show and Tell, Enchantress, Painter
Again your pinpoint discard spells paired with countermagic should prevent them from resolving key spells. Since the success of those decks hinges on resolving a single creature and riding it to victory, your non-targeted removal (Innocent Blood) creates a problem for them as you take out creatures with Shroud/protection ability. Ghastly Demise shouldn't have any difficulty in dealing with Painter's Servant.

Variable - UWx Stoneblade, RUG Tempo, Maverick
Results against these decks are varied. Mainly because these are what pros (and poor players as well) play. These decks run Wastelands which could spell disaster if you're stuck on a hand with no Brainstorm since control decks for a fact rely on a number of lands to effectively play the control role. Playing around Stifle is not only crucial in establishing your mana resource but also in stabilizing the board. Pernicious Deed is an important tool here, it's value becomes clearer after you are able to get rid of multiple Nimble Mongoose and Delver of Secrets. Engineered Explosives set at 0 can deal with germ tokens and Insectile Aberrations. In Maverick, if there's a card to fear coming from their sideboard, it's Choke. Be prepared to save Spell Pierces for this card even if you draw your discard spells and cast an early Deed on the table to prevent a potential mishap.

Unfavorable - Burn, Dredge
Burn can put your lights out very quickly. I've managed to win against Burn once by fatesealing him after he blew off his lands for Fireblasts. Post sideboarding, they can bring in REBs or worse Sulfuric Vortex. There's nothing you can do aside from making them discard and counter their burn spells. They can simply win by topdecking and hitting your dome. Against Goblin Guides, let the triggers resolve first to draw extra cards before doing any Snapcaster Mage tricks with Ghastly Demise during combat. While dying Snapcaster Mages would remove Bridges from Below, your discard spells and Lilianas are basically helping Dredge in this matchup.

Card selection
Manabase - 22,23 lands
The deck may play manlands, but generally 22 lands is the minimum for a control deck without them. With only Brainstorm and no Ponder means that land count below this number is dangerously low. Basics aren't mandatory but you may run a singleton Island since this deck has no turn 2 Hymn to Tourach play. Be ready to fetch an Underground Sea so you can cast all your 1-mana blue and black spells. Likewise, tapping your Tropical Island/Bayous first and leaving an Underground Sea open is ideal since all your Instants are of this color.

Wasteland - It is wiser to save this land and use it in protecting your Planeswalkers rather than use it to try to color screw an opponent, especially when you know your opponent is on Tempo. You cannot win if you don't have enough lands in play and they will always have the cheaper threats than you. It is better to save this land and use it only to destroy manlands or Grove of the Burnwillows.

2 Mishra's Factory/1 Creeping Tar Pit - the more common configuration to beef up on offense. It is advisable to cut a Wasteland to accommodate this package in a 23-land build. The more non-colored mana sources there are, the lesser odds you have in actually casting spells. If removal is not part of your opponent's arsenal or if you have already depleted their hand, Creeping Tar Pit is likely enough to win the game or at least take down an opposing Planeswalker.

Enchantments
Pernicious Deed - As previously mentioned, the strength of the deck is due in part to this card. What makes it better than Damnation is that is blows up pesky enchantments and artifacts, like Pithing Needle naming a Planeswalker. It's downside is that it takes a turn to activate and it doesn't remove recurring and regenerating creatures from the game. It's still better than Maelstrom Pulse because it can wipe the board clean to pave the way for your Snapcaster Mages and Vendilion Clique.

Night of Souls' Betrayal - Single-handedly takes down Delvers, Mothers, Hierarchs and tokens. A Stoneforge Mystic equipped with a Jitte will do nothing. This enchantment comes down a little too late against Goblins and Elves. However, Night of Souls' Betrayal stays after a Deed destroys all creatures, artifacts and enchantments with converted mana cost 3 or less, unlike Engineered Plague and Dread of Night.

Creatures
0-2,3 Snapcaster Mage/1 Vendilion Clique - Snapcaster Mage adds dimension to a control deck. All of a sudden full sets of Standstill and Factories have become out-of-date. Prior to this card's printing you only run 3-4 of each instant and sorcery, now there's virtually 6 or 8 of each. Vendilion Clique is pseudo-Snapcaster + instant speed disruption, packing more punch and evasion. Flash can be in response to spells on the stack (Standstill, Show and Tell, Orim's Chant or Silence) or activation (Aether Vial, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace Brainstorm).

Scavenging Ooze - a Reanimator or Dredge player would not expect to see this card coming from the sideboard against them therefore facing a Firestorm is unlikely. But using Ooze's ability would entail early fetching of mostly green mana sources.

Filter, Discard and Countermagic
Brainstorm - there's an article first published on 7/29/2010 and it has been well-received: SCG Classic - Pondering Brainstorm by AJ Sacher.

Ponder - arguable in a deck full of redundant spells that doesn't involve flipping Delvers, if it could be made better by adding 2 of this card.

Inquisition of Kozilek - hits the majority of threats in legacy except—Jace and Elspeth, Thrun, the Last Troll, Force of Will, Batterskull, Ad Nauseam. A 2/2 split with Thoughtseize is the norm nowadays since the latter will hit those mentioned in exchange for 2 life. A singleton Duress is reasonable because it supplements the creature removal and golden when facing combo or control.

Force of Will, Spell Snare, Counterspell - 4/3/2 split. It's not rare to take out FoWs against decks splashing red to avoid the risk of getting 2-for-1'd by REBs/Pyroblasts. Against RUG Tempo it's also not unusual for Spell Snares to go out in favor of more creature removal.

Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm - a mix of both spells replaces creature removal against decks with 0 creatures. In control matchups, Spell Pierce has added value in denying an opponent from having his own Planeswalker enter the field.

Miscellaneous
Life from the Loam - breaks parity on Liliana of the Veil and a break out card against control mirrors, on the flipside it unnecessarily exposes your library to gy hate.

Planeswalkers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aaron Forsythe

June 20 2011 DCI Bannings Explained
How Did Jace, the Mind Sculptor Get Through Development?
...
Of course, we didn't fully understand Jace's power. His first ability underwent a significant late change, going from milling two cards to "fatesealing" one. That ability was playtested very little, and we didn't recognize just how easy it was to put away games with it.

---

Jace, the Mind Sculptor - your primary win condition. You may use his 3rd ability to return your own Snapcaster Mage or Vendilion Clique post combat to get extra value. Aggressive fatesealing after the board has stabilized should end matters quickly.

Liliana of the Veil - Perma-discard and creature removal engine, the Mistress of Death does an excellent job at protecting Jace, the Mind Sculptor from the likes of Geist of Saint Traft, Thrun, the Last Troll and Nimble Mongooses.

Spot Removal

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...V0c6JfzHGHgPzT, http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...XBkuAwzSvxihct, http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...oJyC9RkQLLOWlA, http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...6jNhzbvB6LVn2w.

Choose your weapons and split them into 3/2/1. Darkblast is bonkers even without Night of Souls' Betrayal online. Dismember is the alternative to kill Goyfs and KotRs.

Cards that didn't make the cut
Smother, Go for the Throat, Diabolic Edict - Spell Snare is being played left and right, so think twice before running any substitutes. At the cost of 2, these spells are too expensive to get the job done with Snapcaster Mage recursion.

Snuff Out - The cost of 4 life is not justifiable by its conditionality. A bad version of Dismember and Ghastly Demise, hefty flashback cost when paired with Snapcaster Mages.


Feature Matches
SCGAL - Rnd 7 - Tony Chu vs Chris Mahaffey (UW Blade)
SCGAL - Round 4 - Tony Chu vs Adam Cai (GW Maverick)
SCGInvi - Finals - Nicholas Spagnolo vs Maxwell Tietze (GWr Maverick)
SCGDC - Rnd8 - Nicholas Spagnolo vs David McDarby (UR Sneak Attack)


Top 8 Placings (most recent)
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/59594 Tony Chu - 4th Place SCG Birmingham 22/04/2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/59264 Sam Roukas - 2nd Place JGNELC 14/04/2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/59381 David Rocher - 11th Place LCL 31/03/2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/58714 Alession Bergamaschi - 1st Place PCLL 25/03/2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/58233 Nick Spagnolo - 2nd Place SCG Invitational 25/03/2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/58156 Causser Gianluca - 5th Place DL 18/03/2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/57787 Lerro Lorenzo - 8th Place GBLL 18/03/2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/58047 Sergio Matesanz - 4th Place LML 17/03/2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/57802 Oscar Marín - 7th Place LIL 17/03/2012

I have been testing this deck during the last weeks, including I did top 4 in a little tournament (24 players) losing vs ant :(, just back luck.

I think that this deck is very powerfull because in g1 we have good chances vs control and combo because we have discard and counters, and in g2 we can improve a lot our chances againts aggro sideboarding more removals + Pernicius Deed.

For example I think that bant is a good match up post sideboard.

In other hand I think that rug tempo is one of the our worst match ups, we are full of duals and fetchlands perfect vs theirs stifles and wastelands.

I would advice to play creeping tar pit, this land is very good. and take some games.

I don't think the RUG tempo matchup is that bad. I played a couple of them and it was always pretty close.

Since we play a lot of lands, they should not be able to completely manascrew us. In g1 where we are removal light, it is dangerous if they have an early threat and can counter a removal spell or defense in the form of Goyf.

Very good primer catmind. Team America thread was full of BUG control discussion, this should serve well to make the distinction clearer.

I'm trying to convince myself to stick to playing BUG (because I like the deck :smile: ) but it's mathcups are not really suited towards the current metagame in my opinion. Aggro decks are really hard to deal with, straight control decks like UW Stoneforge are a little worse than slightly-unfavorable and combo isn't that dominant for BUG to be a predator.

You think the UW Stoneforge matchup is unfavorable? I had good expierences playing versus UW control.

What makes the matchup problematic for you?

I think that UW stoneblade is favorable, our disruption and especially hymn to tourach makes the difference

So what is this deck exactly? Is it just a BUG deck that falls in between Team America and BUG Landstill? TA without Stifles, or Landstill with creatures?

When BUG gets a good start the game becomes favorable but when UW gets a smooth hand and is able to race out a SoFaF card disadvantage starts building up pretty fast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bfeingersh

So what is this deck exactly? Is it just a BUG deck that falls in between Team America and BUG Landstill? TA without Stifles, or Landstill with creatures?

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Somehow yes, however I think that distinction is too simplified. TA without stifle can still be a deck with 20 lands and a tempo plan (there are such builds as you can see in the TA thread.

I would say prepoard the deck is closer to TA and postboard versus creature decks more like landstill. However this comparison does not really fit, because the deck is totally built around snapcaster... Snapcaster does just not fit into TA or Landstill. TA does not have the manabase/curve/gameplan for it + it relies on Tombstalker which is not snapcasters friend. And in Landstill a 2/1 body has very little value.

So maybe the deck could be called snapcaster BUG. :laugh:

Black
3 x Dismember
4 x Hymn to Tourach
2 x Liliana of the Veil
Blue
4 x Ancestral Vision
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 x Spell Snare
2 x Vendilion Clique
Gold
3 x Maelstrom Pulse
4 x Pernicious Deed
Land
2 x Bayou
1 x Creeping Tar Pit
2 x Marsh Flats
3 x Mishra's Factory
3 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Tropical Island
4 x Underground Sea
3 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Wasteland

This is a rough list that i have of a jace control list that i've been tinkering with. I've really liked the idea of Jace Control with MM befor its banning, and not sure if Ancestral Vision is doable post the banning, but it does refill your hand. Basically control the board with Deed and get there with the Manlands/Cliques or Jace can get you there also.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Parax

Black
3 x Dismember
4 x Hymn to Tourach
2 x Liliana of the Veil
Blue
4 x Ancestral Vision
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 x Spell Snare
2 x Vendilion Clique
Gold
3 x Maelstrom Pulse
4 x Pernicious Deed
Land
2 x Bayou
1 x Creeping Tar Pit
2 x Marsh Flats
3 x Mishra's Factory
3 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Tropical Island
4 x Underground Sea
3 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Wasteland

This is a rough list that i have of a jace control list that i've been tinkering with. I've really liked the idea of Jace Control with MM befor its banning, and not sure if Ancestral Vision is doable post the banning, but it does refill your hand. Basically control the board with Deed and get there with the Manlands/Cliques or Jace can get you there also.

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I think that this isnt the correct way for this deck.

Bug control has to play Snapcasters, Tarmogoyfs and hymns in main deck.

One list for reference

Marijn Lybaert 12 ant GP Amsterdam

Creatures [8]
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf


Instants [15]
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
2 Dismember
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will


Sorceries [9]
1 Ponder
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach


Planeswalkers [4]
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Lands [24]
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Sunken Ruins
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Darkblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Liliana of the Veil

It's about time someone put Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor in the same deck.

Whats the best number of each to run? We're going for three colors so the double color cost of each makes casting either hard against tempo decks like RUG Tempo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

It's about time someone put Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor in the same deck.

Whats the best number of each to run? We're going for three colors so the double color cost of each makes casting either hard against tempo decks like RUG Tempo.

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In general 3 Jace and 1 Liliana SB and/or MD is very common.

The double BB is not a consideration since we need that anyway because of Hymn.

Concerning RUG:
I played yesterday on MWS 2 matches versus competent RUG Tempo Players and won both very close 2:1.
Not to get manascrewed is very important, so the starting hand should contain some lands obviously. Also you can play around stifle by just not fetching. If you don't fetch and keep making land drops they fall behind automatically. Of course if they have a lot of early pressure that plan has to be adapted.

1 Jace goes out for sure, but I am not sure if I rather have Lilianas or Deeds (If they play nimble mongoose). Liliana is often the only edict effect, but dies very easily. Deed gives extra late game value to their stifles.

concerning Liliana in general:
I play currently 1 main and 1 SB. I have 1 slot maindeck which is flexible where I tested Liliana, Sylvan Library and Unearth. Since creatuers are a problem I opted for Liliana at the moment. I am also considering putting 1 deed in the maindeck instead of her since that's even better against creature decks. :smile:

The problem with lialiana is that is not that good against blue decks, because they have all the flash creatures. (Rug has additional burn obv.). Also since we are not Team America, which only has "crap" cards in the late game it is generally harder to +1 her. Nevertheless I feel she deserves her place, because of the possibility to take over games.

Very good deck, and very nice primer. :)

Seeya today @corner?

Just because snapcaster is the flavor of the month does not mean that we need to be playing him in every control deck out there.

I know that everyone likes him but i really am not on the boat with him at this time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Parax

Just because snapcaster is the flavor of the month does not mean that we need to be playing him in every control deck out there.

I know that everyone likes him but i really am not on the boat with him at this time.

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Did you test snapcaster?
..and specifically in Snapcaster BUG?

I honestly feel if you want to go the snapcaster route, you might as well drop the green and run a ub list much like that is posted above with Delver and V.Cliques as creatures also.

Actually, this is one of the best decks to play him. My eyes bleed when i see people playing it on Canadian threshold (even if they win SCGs)

About Liliana, i didnt like her at all. Seriously, i wish it were another card 80% of times.

I agree. RUG Tempo is the best Stifle/Delver Deck, but does not really have a home for snapcaster.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Parax

I honestly feel if you want to go the snapcaster route, you might as well drop the green and run a ub list much like that is posted above with Delver and V.Cliques as creatures also.

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Yes, this deck wants to go the snapcaster route, but it was not invented by me. You can check SCG and TC decks and see how many people choose BUG with 4 Snapcaster Mage.

Concerning Green:
Goyf is still the moste efficient creature for it's purpose. But green is even more important there for deed.

I would like to talk about the RUG Tempo matchup since it is very popular at the moment.

I just beat it again in MWS 2:0. The draw somehow went my way, but with my recent experiecnes, maybe the matchup is not slightly unfavorable as I thought, but more even.

The following specific situation got me thinking about the general strategy:
The following situation came up in g2 after I grinded him out in g1.
My opening hand:
Fetch, Fetch, Fetch, Thoughtseize, Hymn, Ghastly Demise, Snapcaster Mage

I am on the play and for 4 turns it goes "land go" except for him casting a Ponder in turn 4. I did not want to crack my fetches to get stifled and I feel my Thoughtseize and Hymn do not loose value.

After his Turn 4 his board is: Tropical, Volcanic, Wasteland, Wasteland.
Since he does not do anything I feel he has at least 1 stifle and I am afraid I loose the game getting totally mana screwed. Fortunately I draw an Underground sea:
I play thoughtseize and he reveals: Wasteland, Goyf, Pyroblast, Spell Snare, Spell Snare, Lightning Bolt

Since I had drawn another Inquision I also cast it to get rid of all his spell snares, so I can follow up with a hymn. Luckily I hit a wasteland so I keep 2 of my lands.

From there I trade easily with his threats and finish him off with Jace.

So my question is:
What do you think about the plan not to fetch unless you are under a lot of pressure?
I mean it is more likely that he really has a stifle as the game goes long, but I feel the longer it goes "land - go" it is an advantage for us. Especially post board, where we have Spell Pierce and if he misses land drops (which is very common). Also if they want to play threats, make lands drops and have mana open for Stifle AND Spell Snare/Pierce they need to brainstorm end of turn and make suboptimal plays.

Do you have experience with this line? It is somehow awkward not to kick off with Thoughtseize and Hymn if we have it. But I feel like so many time I walk into Stifle or trade with Spell Pierce/Spell Snare/Daze.


Concerning Sideboarding against RUG Tempo
I feel that I have to side out Force of Will. RUG has a lot of virtual card advantage running only 18 lands and we cannot afford to exile any of the blue cards we run. RUG does also not have something we need to force, so we need to make sure that we can protect our fundamental spells with black disruption and spell pierce.

I like to play a lot of removal to make sure I don't loose to delver or Goyf. I think nimble mongoose is the scariest threat, so I also like to play 2 deed and 1 liliana so I have 3 removals for Mongoose, which can also be game winning. In general I like to bring out blue cards versus good black and green cards to weaken their pyroblasts.

So how I side at the moment
-4 Force
-1 Jace (need to lower the curve)
-2 Dismember (Don't want to hurt myself and ghastly demise is better)
-1 Spell Snare (Seems loose to run it for Goyf, Fire-Ice, but some do run Snapcaster)
-1 Go for the throat (too expensive)

+2 Spell Pierce (I also play 1 Maindeck)
+3 Ghastly Demise (+1 maindeck)
+1 Darkblast
+1 Liliana
+1 Life from the Loam (can win the game)
+1 Deed (so 2 overall, because now I run 1 maindeck)

Thoughts? What is your strategy versus RUG Tempo?

Why board in darkblast? I play the matchup all the time on MODO and your matchup plan is solid but darkblast is almost never useful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by juppal

Why board in darkblast? I play the matchup all the time on MODO and your matchup plan is solid but darkblast is almost never useful.

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True. It's new that I use it. It kills delver before he flips and also brings the advantage Goyf versus Goyf. Replacing it with a Dismember or a Go for the throat seems right.

Againts rug Out -4 Force of will -3 spell snare and -1 Jace

In +3 removals + 2 spell pierce + 1 life from the loam, +1 Dark Blast, db is good againts threshold (delver, lamancers or goyfs wars ) moreover if they play nimble mongoose I would sideboard pernicious deed rather than spell pierce.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kiwi

Againts rug Out -4 Force of will -3 spell snare and -1 Jace

In +3 removals + 2 spell pierce + 1 life from the loam, +1 Dark Blast, db is good againts threshold (delver, lamancers or goyfs wars ) moreover if they play nimble mongoose I would sideboard pernicious deed rather than spell pierce.

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seems correct.
Spell Snare seems very weak. Good point about darkblast for Lavamancer.

I played Canadian ***** myself a lot and the key for rug player is NOT to reach lategame.
When bug player stabilize its probably over. I think it is mistake to side out Force. I used to be doing that and it is wrong. You need to make sure your (kill) spells will resolve. Card advantage is nothing if you are dead. They have no way how to draw cards so fow on their goyf is perfectly fine.
I love Ghastly Demise. Since its rugs biggest enemy. He has 11 creatures and we need to focus on killing them.
Spell Snare hits 4-5 his spells so that goes. (depends if he runs snapcasters - I dont thing thats very good version honestly; mongoose rocks)
Dismember stays. It helps early and it kills anything later. (unlike rug you can pay bb)
You dont really need spell pierce. Focus on killing creatures - thats the key.
I wouldnt keep Thoughtseize because of the lifeloss.
Keep Inquisitions and like three hymns stay.
One less jace is fine.
Life from the loam of course - deed is problematic since he keeps all stifles and I would strongly suggest considering Surgical Extractions since it can be round one win - him - tropico, ponder me - waste, extraction (happended to me in rug mirror)
Liliana is fantastic!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koplinchen

I played Canadian ***** myself a lot and the key for rug player is NOT to reach lategame.
When bug player stabilize its probably over. I think it is mistake to side out Force. I used to be doing that and it is wrong. You need to make sure your (kill) spells will resolve. Card advantage is nothing if you are dead. They have no way how to draw cards so fow on their goyf is perfectly fine.
I love Ghastly Demise. Since its rugs biggest enemy. He has 11 creatures and we need to focus on killing them.
Spell Snare hits 4-5 his spells so that goes. (depends if he runs snapcasters - I dont thing thats very good version honestly; mongoose rocks)
Dismember stays. It helps early and it kills anything later. (unlike rug you can pay bb)
You dont really need spell pierce. Focus on killing creatures - thats the key.
I wouldnt keep Thoughtseize because of the lifeloss.
Keep Inquisitions and like three hymns stay.
One less jace is fine.
Life from the loam of course - deed is problematic since he keeps all stifles and I would strongly suggest considering Surgical Extractions since it can be round one win - him - tropico, ponder me - waste, extraction (happended to me in rug mirror)
Liliana is fantastic!

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Thanks for you input but I disagree for most points.

1) FoW cant stay. We can make sure the removal works by
- redundancy &
- playing around daze

True they have no way to draw cards, but they draw a lot more spells than we do and have 4 more filter spells. So their overall card quality (and therefore virutal card advantage) will be higher.

2) If Spell Snare hits just 4-5 spells it can't stay way to narrow. Especially if its goyf which we can hanlde with every removal spell and our own goyfs.

3) Thoughtseize on the other hand is very important. If you want to play that crucal goyf/removal/snapcaster for removal you need to clear the way from Red blasts and Spell Snares.

4)Wasting/Extirpating sounds like fun. However for that to work we need a "2 card combo" in hand and need to make sure they do not have 2 tropicals in play already. I would only considering bringing in 2 extirpate if they run loam and snapcaster. If not I would rather use the slots for solid removal.

5)Liliana is ok, but after 1 edict she can so easily die. Also the +1 hurts us more then them.

I found deed to be very useful. Think 2-3 is good versus mongoose builds post-board.

By the way: Just won another game 2:1.
G1 I walked into 2 Stifle and he had 3 mongoose.
G2 we both had reasonable draws. I could stick a jace and could protect it for 4 brainstomrs into lands. After he killed Jace, I drew 3 goyf in a row though. :)
G3 he mulliganed and was empty handed with 2 mongoose on board very soon. He conceded to my deed and 3 cards in hand.

Since I won now the last 5 games (3 times 2:1 and 2 times 2:0) I am going to change the matchup in the primer to even/slightly favorable.

Well my english is far from perfect - spell snares are obviously bad and they are sided out.
It is easy to say - play around Daze, but thats why rug is one of the best decks - its really fast. Wasteland has always target, spell snare, stifle... That deck is designed to beat decks like bug. I would even say - perfect rug hand -> perfect bug hand.

I said 4. But its probably correct to keep two Forces in. I would like to hear someones else opinion. Tempo is more than card advantage here.

Surgical is not just good to remove lands - it gives you info about your opp. hand, you can remove goyf, spell snare. I like it.

Thoughtseize - volcanic into delver; fetch sea thoughtseize; flip waste attack to 14 play delver; whatever - daze... gg.

but...

This is what Marijn suggests (since I guess we are talking about his build):

Vs. RUG Tempo
- 4 Force of Will
- 3 Spell Snare
+ 2 Diabolic Edict
+ 1 Darkblast
+ 1 Life from the Loam
+ 1 Liliana of the Veil
+ 2 Pernicious Deed
Liliana is your girl. Play her on an empty board, and there is no way you are losing the game. Try to wait till you are sure you can resolve her (don't run into Daze).

I am completely wrong then. :smile:

I also like Liliana, but unfortunately there are plenty of ways to loose with playing her on an empty board.

Especially versus RUG. They can easily have Bolt+creature or playing 2 cratures in the same turn or 2 bolts.

Does anyone have good experience playing against Maverick?
I would be interested to hear what you think the matchup is pre- postboard.
My guess is 25:75 preboard and 60:40 postboard

Assigning arbitrary percentages to matchups doesn't get any where, but you're right in your assessment. Game one is pretty much in their favor. On average, one can squeek out more wins if their opponent isn't that good or the draw favors them. Game two/three get better because of Perish. That's the card you need for this match up. If you expect to see it even once at a touranment, just run two. They are at least a two for one against zoo, another very popular green beatdown deck.

They'll be bringing in things like Choke and maybe an Enlightened Tutor package that might feature some GY hate for snapcaster, maybe bring in Elspeth if she's not already maindeck (soo good maindeck). Anyways, they'll be shedding dead cards against you like Stoneforge packages (in anticipation of Deed/etc), and maybe shaving a StP or two, as there's no goyf war with Maverick. They just Exalted you to death.

If you can just go land-go for the post board games, you have a good chance at stabilizing. I'd leave in discard for their sideboard cards and strategies and side out countermagic. Your blue count is going down with all the sideboard cards coming in, so seems right, but I could be misjudging it.

The matchup is favorable for them overall because they have lots of big beats, so naturally one-for-one is exhausting, and they still have all these beats going into topdeck mode.

Tight play is key in this matchup, you gotta get them to walk into your Perish/Deed. I happen to think that Jace is a house in this match. But as a one of, he can probably go for more Lilianas. I play three maindeck, love her. Trade the first one for creatures, the second one for their hand and board. At the GP I ultimated her twice. In one game.

Like a boss.

Anyhoo. I'll say the tl'dr version of this post is to practice the matchup. Discard>counters, Perish/Deed = awesome, you're the control so make your land drops.

Very solid analysis jandax.
Sounds like you have a good grasp how to have a game versus Maverick. I do not only keep discard in but also spell pierce for their sideboard cards but also for Elspeth, Equipments, GSZ,...

I do not play Perish, because if they sneak in a surviving mother or a jitte it will still be very hard to beat them after Perishing the board, since every creature they play represents another serious threat. Deed takes care of everything. Deed is also good versus goblins, merfolk, affinity, entchantress, Team Italia, Boros,... where Perish is not, so I like to maximize the value of my SB slots.

Of course deed is harder to play versus maverick, because it is slower and they can find answers.

I would really like to test more Liliana MD, but I so far do not have space. What did you cut: removal? Discard? Blue cards?
Also arent there some matchups where she is only mediocre?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catmint

Very solid analysis jandax.
Sounds like you have a good grasp how to have a game versus Maverick. I do not only keep discard in but also spell pierce for their sideboard cards but also for Elspeth, Equipments, GSZ,...

I do not play Perish, because if they sneak in a surviving mother or a jitte it will still be very hard to beat them after Perishing the board, since every creature they play represents another serious threat. Deed takes care of everything. Deed is also good versus goblins, merfolk, affinity, entchantress, Team Italia, Boros,... where Perish is not, so I like to maximize the value of my SB slots.

Of course deed is harder to play versus maverick, because it is slower and they can find answers.

I would really like to test more Liliana MD, but I so far do not have space. What did you cut: removal? Discard? Blue cards?
Also arent there some matchups where she is only mediocre?

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Deed is indeed better than Perish, but what Perish does for the green beatdown matchups is subtle. They're bringing in Choke and likely Grip against BUG control. Choke shuts down a vast portioin of BUG's mana base, save Bayou/Creeping Tar Pit/Sunken Ruins/Wasteland/etc. That said, I feel comfortable running 3 deed/2 perish in the side, where Perish is simply there for the beatdown decks. It throws a wrench in their game plan, and landing a Liliana to follow up, for example, usually means you're in the driver's seat. And leaving Spell Pierce in/siding it in is a great move. Save it for their SB cards, and handle the rest with yours and I expect the game to usually end post board in BUG's favor.

I cut blue cards for three MD Liliana, and in Vial matchups she's not so good. They deploy lots of threats and a three mana edict isn't a big game. I don't count her as a removal spell, only in game one where the deck is already light.

Here's my list for reference, I played something different at the GP but this list reflects a couple T32 BUG lists.

4 Force
3 Snare
4 Hymn
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition
2 Go for the Throat (over Dismember)
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Liliana
2 JTMS
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster
1 Clique
4 Brainstorm
2 LftL

9 fetch
4 Seas
2 Trop
1 Bayou
4 Waste
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Riptide Lab
1 Island

I generally run the Trop into the first stifle/wasteland. Black is more important early on, so preserving that Bayou will go a long way. The sideboard is in flux but there's definitely Deeds and Grips. Extra Spell Pierce, sure, I still like Surgical Extraction, but see merrit for Extirpate and Leyline. An extra Clique and Snappy are in the board too.

I feel like the deck is slowly shifting towards GBu good stuff. As a result a lot of blue cards are being cut (understandably so). As it currently stands, there are only 17 blue cards in the deck including FoW. Is it worth considering moving these to the SB for match ups where the are completely necessary or the blue card count is higher than 20?

Made a mistake with that deck list. But you're right, it's becoming less of a cohesive control deck and more of a goodstuff late-game deck, a BUG Rock deck. I just really like the archetype but have problems being objective enough to create real synergy between cards, and keep the blue count higher.

I think cutting cliques and unearth is a bad idea. I really feel that unearth is an extremely strong card and absolutely bonkers with snapcaster. I'm playing the standard list and it's been performing well so far. I don't think the deck needs so much discard though. 2 Seize, 1 inquisition and 4 hymm seems enough.

The blue count is a challenge, because it is really just a much better Rock deck. I am more conservative, so I do not go lower than 19. Post-board FoW comes always out to transform the deck for board control.

The list I play currently:


4 Underground Sea
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Sunken Ruins
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Pernicious Deed

SB
2 Spell Pierce
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Darkblast
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate


I played Unearth and 2 Vendilion Clique in the Grand Prix instead of the deed in a 23 land build. The problem was that I had too many "clunk hands" which did not survive the eraly game (i.e: Snapcaster Mage, Jace, Vendilion Clique, unearth,...).

Yes, Unearth and Clique are very good, but I felt I have to cut it for stuff that helps in the early game.

I also figured that playing 4 mana discard spells is not bad, especially if you want to reliably snap them back in turn 3. The clique effect is not that important then...

Unearth competes with the deed (or Sylvan Library) in the maindeck and... well I think deed serves a much better purpose in "hopeless" situations and is often an out in game1.

Because there are so many good green and black cards that I would like to play, the maindeck Life from the Loam does not have a chance for me, altough it is so good in some matchups that I consider a second one in the sideboard.

I never tested the 1 Ponder instead of the 1 Spell Pierce. In the GP there where 2 random g1 situation where this spell pierce won the game for me. However I did not count the times where I whished it was a Ponder. :laugh: So, also not set on this.

I feel 4 Wasteland are a must if I play Loam in the SB and Creeping Tar Pit has also proven to be very good.

I play/am testing two MD LftL only because I rock three Liliana main. Liliana turns all those late game dead draws like extra discard/lands/LtfL....

Typing that out really kind of stings. "all those late game dead draws" like a quarter of the deck.....Seems like a bigger problem exists, ya know?

I dunno. Probably best to stick with a "stock" list like ivanpei's. Not that I'm trying to innovate out of desperation, you know, add things laying around at home to make the deck feel more accomplished.

Look at the T32 from the GP, there's a BUG list in the mid 20's that I really liked. Same sort of idea that I want to build around.

I have to admit that this deck does feel somewhat clunky. I don't know how this deck wins without a reasonable clock. Basically -2 clique, -2 unearth means -4 threats. If these cards were to go, they should be replaced with threats. I would have to say that this is not a very good pure control deck because discard stinks in the late game. This should be more of a mid range aggro control deck ala rock.

I know that cliques and unearths are clunky, but replacing them with more snares/lftl/liliana doesn't seem too hot. You want to knock them off their groove with discard and kill them before they recover. Once you start bricking on late game discard, you've lost. Also maybe im slightly biased towards unearth because I pulled off a snap> unearth> snap> unearth> goyf chain once. Totally swung the whole game for me. I would say 30% of the time I'd have to cycle unearth because my dudes get plowed or I simply did not have a threat to being back. 30% of the time it's absolutely bonkers with snapcaster and the other 40% it's just a cheap goyf/clique which is also fine.

True, with cliques the unearth is better. Not a question for me though, since I cut the cliques.

My logic was not to replace 2-4 threats with other threats, because I felt often to be overloaded with threats, but without the ability to stabalize. I added 1 threat in the form of creeping tar pit. So my winconditions are 4 snapcaster mage, 4 goyf, 1 creeping tar pit and of course the best one: 3 Jace.
So technically the winconditions are more than in many classic TA lists. Of course snapcaster mage cannot win the game alone, but since she comes with a hymn, thoughtseize, spell snare, removal spell or brainstorm, he does a lot for the game.

I tested my build since 1 week after the GP in countless matches, but I never felt that I don't have enough win-conditions. Against many decks even 2+ Goyf come out and I still have a very positive matchup. :smile:

Concerning Discard to be dead in the late game. That is true versus many decks where we have to transform into a deed / removal heave deck and board out the hymns. Versus many decks which keep counters/removal in their hand the late discard is very useful. Of course in general less useful than in the beginning, but I think the advantage of playing heavy discard early is much bigger than the disadvantage of having some bad draws.

Just won a foil judge maze of ith (in a small tournament) with this deck. My list was the following:

[8 Creatures]
4 Goyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

[28 Spells]
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
3 Jace, the Mind sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Dismember
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Ghastly Demise

[24 Lands]

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
1 Riptide laboratory
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard:
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Extirpate
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Spell Pierce

G1 - NO RUG (1-2)
G2 - Canadian Thresh (0-2)
G3 - Bye
G4 - Goblins (2-0)

Top 8:

QF - Merfolk (2-1)
SF - NO RUG (2-1) (same opp as G1)
Final - Canadian Thresh (2-0) (same opp as G2)

Still haven't figured out how good this deck is. I used to play BUG landstill, but the meta is not too good for it now (flash creatures and tempo decks are all over the place) so i am trying this now. I don't really like discard in the main deck (thoughtseize and inquistion) as you seem to fall behind pretty quickly against aggro decks so i added additional removal. Hymn is the exception cause it is such a ridiculous card and it is worth falling behind on board a bit. In addition i wanted to use flusterstorms in the sideboard but i couldn't get them fast enought for the tournament so the SB was mostly experimental and probably incorrect.

Regards