Is Wizards trying to kill off Legacy? And what does pee taste like?

This is not supposed to be another conspiracy thread but the new Time Walk really got me wondering if Wizards is trying to rehouse the legacy player base to an other format like modern or standard. This is not necessarily due to the new Time Walk but Wizards seems to print new blue staples in each set now so that you're almost obliged to play blue because other strategies are not viable anymore. Yes, there is Maverick but that deck is basically the only nonblue competitive deck right now while the other DtBs (Delver, Stoneblade etc.) are mainly generic blue decks. One could argue that Delver and Snapcaster (and to an extent Jace) were simply underestimated by their developers but then again, they seem to continue printing overpowered blue cards like the new Time Walk and refuse to learn from their fails. That, and the fact that legacy staples rocketed in regard of prices might be enough to finally prohibit players from playing legacy and could also get them to formats like standard and modern which are more lucrative for Wizards.

You mean after years of complaining that new sets contain nothing good for us, we get cards that are (OMG) actually viable in Legacy? Snap and Delver are not broken. Very strong, yes, but hardly broken. The best deck right now is a non-blue deck and the format is as diverse as it's been in a long time imo. TM hasn't been tested by anyone and it's omgpowerfulbanhammerplx-ness is highly contested if these forums are any measure to go by.

Honestly, I wonder if I just decided to play the format with the most whiney players or if every format is like this.

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Originally Posted by JeroenC

Honestly, I wonder if I just decided to play the format with the most whiney players or if every format is like this.

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I played standard during the age of Jund. You have no idea.

On topic: I have wondered why R&D just seems incapable of learning the "busted blue cards = messed up eternal formats" lesson ever since they printed Jace.

They sky. It is falling.

Wizards already said they were playing it fast and loose when it comes to the eternal formats. If something is format distorting, things will get banned.

Believe it or not, a Legacy deck has access to thousands of different cards. There may be a solution that already exists to problems that haven't even happened yet.

I think you're vastly overestimating the number of shits Wizards gives about Legacy players. They don't hate Legacy, they "nothing" Legacy.

Also, the reason Legacy staples cost more than they used to is because of increased demand. If anything, Wizards' attempts to kill Legacy are having the opposite effect.

If Wizards really wanted to kill off Legacy they would have just simultaneously unbanned Shahrazad and Land Tax. Laughing as all the games in Legacy ended in draws.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

If Wizards really wanted to kill off Legacy they would have just simultaneously unbanned Shahrazad and Land Tax. Laughing as all the games in Legacy ended in draws.

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Challenge accepted. Also, Divine Intervention.

Lies. IF they really wanted to kill eternal formats they would unban ante.

Although, I would only enjoy it more...

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Originally Posted by DrHealex

Lies. IF they really wanted to kill eternal formats they would unban ante.

Although, I would only enjoy it more...

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Oh god, because cards like Contract from Below aren't broken enough as it is.

EDIT: No, they aren't trying to break Legacy in half so people play Modern. i think they understand the role Legacy plays for MTG, but it's not going to stop them from developing the formats closer to their wallets - Limited, Standard, and to a much smaller degree Modern. This is a natural cycle that occurs whenever a new set becomes released - things get shaken up.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

I think you're vastly overestimating the number of shits Wizards gives about Legacy players. They don't hate Legacy, they "nothing" Legacy.

Also, the reason Legacy staples cost more than they used to is because of increased demand. If anything, Wizards' attempts to kill Legacy are having the opposite effect.

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This. If anything, by doing stuff like this they're turning Legacy players into people that actually have to care about Standard. Miracle.dec takes SCG two months in a row? Shit son, better get your wallet out.

Eternal is also in this really weird place right now, where there are 4 Eternal formats "big enough" to warrant a giant Venn diagram of format staples. Vintage, Legacy, EDH and Modern overlap in relevant ways, and even with Standard being the Magic moneymaker, the effect that four formats buying the same staples is palpable, especially if you're trying to play this game on a budget.

If you want to kill Legacy, you ban something that severely affects Force of Will, like Brainstorm. The FoW doesn't get played nearly as much because the deck design cannot support it as effectively. Then LED gets played more to the point at which they have to ban LED.

Thats how you destroy Legacy. It would get destroyed any time soon, just power creeped, WHICH HAPPENS. We are just seeing the tail end of it. Creeping Past Wild Nacatl was bound to happen.

If i have to play against a burn deck every round, then yes. Thats enough to quit legacy.

I rather get time walked than playing against a burn deck.

Personally.... I'd rather just win on turn 1 and avoid having to deal with a 4/3 creature all together.. but thats just me. I see CB getting better as a result of this. If Burn gets really good, the metagame will adapt and play a whole bunch of stupid shit like Chill, Warmth, and COP Red. Seriously guys.. Burn has a plateau because they choose not to play a 'stable mana base' of mountains that way they don't miss out on hardcasting their Fireblasts to a Wasteland or two. If you want to worry about a deck kicking everyones ass, honestly I would be more afraid of Vexing Devil.. and friends. Hanni's Quickdraw list now has.

W for a 4/5
R for a 4/3 or 4 damage
U for a 3/2 Flying
R or a 2/2 Haste
R for a 1/1 T:RFG 2: Deal 2 to target creature of player.

I'd say thats way more dangerous than Hellspark Elementals and Keldon Marauders. Now there's a high likelihood that you are below 10 life by turn 2 with this deck.. which means ANT and TES are going to have a little bit more trouble than they normally do.

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

blahblahbla

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Seeing this thread was started by you I was tempted not to join the conversation, as I know you from german forums.

In any way --> No WotC does NOT want to kill Legacy. Stop whining and go check out all the other threads we had about this topic just when the last sets came out. Everytime the same thingie, everytime the same whining, everytime the same SHIT!

I almost started a thread along the same lines after Snapcaster and Delver came out, certain that WotC was intentionally messing with tthe LEgacy metagame. Now I realize I was in the wrong. WotC is just printing cards that are going to be fun for Standard players, and cards that are fun for Standard players are occassionally useful in Legacy also.

Legacy players have gotten too complacent in thinking that theirs' is a format that cannot change and grow. Well, I like that change and growth is still possible in Legacy, and I don't really mind that, Heaven Forbid, 4 cards from a set of 244 could be playable in Legacy.

They don't test new cards against eternal cards. I think WotC sees it as a waste of time and money. If they wanted to kill off legacy (which, hey, why not. It isn't like we buy sealed product, right?), all they'd have to do is dissolve it. No ban list, no sanctioned tournaments. Who's ban list would you use? LGS's? I think it would make financial sense to pretend that older cards don't exist. That problem is that it takes little energy to "maintain" the eternal formats, but the shitstorm they would generate after ending all eternal formats would probably be something they'd want to avoid.

On another note, people assumeWotC should ignore eternal formats because we don't use the new cards. That's not true. We for the most part just don't crack packs. WotC needs focus their energy on selling packs (which makes them money, obviously). Do standard players crack packs? Why would they? It would cost too much. So who do they appeal to? I think it must be little kids who don't know any better. I think if WotC could convince eternal players to buy packs, then they would focus more on the eternal formats.

They aren't trying to kill it off. Just test the boundaries of powercreep.

This happens every time a new set comes out. Have you noticed?


Ok, lets look at the last one, Dark Ascension for example.

What people thought:

Elbrus, the Binding Blade - Scared it was going to be used with Stoneforge Mystic to make uber powerful kill swings early on.

What happened? It sucked.


Now one of my favorites

Grafdigger's Cage - People swore up and down this was the end of Dredge and any other Grave based decks. OMG it hits Green Sun's Zenith, Dryad Arbor, etc...

So what happened? It's just fairly decent. Tormod's stayed the premiere grave hate as usual. It's a good card, but far from archetype ending.

Faithless Looting - Probably one of the few that got judged correctly. Than again, we had a precedent for that one in Careful Study already. We know what that one can do.


The funny thing is two of the cheapest cards in the set turned out to be the winners. Thalia (got my foils for $2 a pop lol), and Lingering Souls. Go figure. Thought Scour being the next decent one down.


Innistrad was about the same.

Snapcaster - The frigging sky is falling!

No, just a good card.


Anyway, you get the idea. Go back and read the discussions we had when a set was starting to get spoiled. It's funny compared to what people know now. Testing and the reaction to new ideas being played are what really judges things. This happens every single time.


Sometimes a card slips through and becomes a monster, but it doesn't happen often.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

They aren't trying to kill it off. Just test the boundaries of powercreep.

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This. This exactly!

I think Vintage and Extended are the formats that Wizards don't care about, but even then they have no reason to kill either of them off.

If anything, Avacyn Restored has shown me that they're becoming more and more serious about EDH.

I understand that Pepsi is actively trying to wean the public off of Mountain Dew. It seems there the extra caffeine makes it more to produce and so marginally less attractive as a product. The prevailing wisdom at Pepsi headquarters is that consumers (who mostly drink Mountain Dew because "Pepsi tastes like ass") will simply switch back to Pepsi.

Learn more at www.youfuckingmoron.com.

Wizards can't do anything right. They can't make Legacy fail and they can't make Legacy grow.

Doug Linn recently wrote a (paid) article about this very topic:

Insider: Playing Maze of Ith in Modern (and why Wizards wants Modern to kill Legacy)

Stirring up a fair amount of discussion over at Quiet Speculation, though it can't really add much to the convo here since it's an Insider article.

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Originally Posted by metamet

Doug Linn recently wrote a (paid) article about this very topic:

Insider: Playing Maze of Ith in Modern (and why Wizards wants Modern to kill Legacy)

Stirring up a fair amount of discussion over at Quiet Speculation, though it can't really add much to the convo here since it's an Insider article.

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Link doesn't seem to be working right now - it's redirecting to a member login page.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Link doesn't seem to be working right now - it's redirecting to a member login page.

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"Insider Article" of which I have an account - I'll let you know what happens. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar

"Insider Article" of which I have an account - I'll let you know what happens. :wink:

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Bah, fuck that. Why do I want to pay money to hear about some opinions on Modern?

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Originally Posted by Finn

I understand that Pepsi is actively trying to wean the public off of Mountain Dew. It seems there the extra caffeine makes it more to produce and so marginally less attractive as a product. The prevailing wisdom at Pepsi headquarters is that consumers (who mostly drink Mountain Dew because "Pepsi tastes like ass") will simply switch back to Pepsi.

Learn more at www.youfuckingmoron.com.

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I dunno, I vastly prefer the taste of Pepsi to Dew. Dew tastes like piss to me.

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Originally Posted by Sims

I dunno, I vastly prefer the taste of Pepsi to Dew. Dew tastes like piss to me.

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You know what pee tastes like? >^,^<

Anyhow, I don't think wizards is trying to kill off legacy, anything that gets people to play their game doesn't sound bad at all, even if its 99% secondary market, exceptions being that 1 card that comes out every set or two that see's a push in legacy.

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Originally Posted by feline

You know what pee tastes like? >^,^<

Anyhow, I don't think wizards is trying to kill off legacy, anything that gets people to play their game doesn't sound bad at all, even if its 99% secondary market, exceptions being that 1 card that comes out every set or two that see's a push in legacy.

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Well there was that one New Years Eve....

Never should have had that last carbomb.

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Originally Posted by Sims

Well there was that one New Years Eve....

Never should have had that last carbomb.

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It's cool. We've all been there.

Of course, I didn't drink pee. I just slept with a chick that looks like a horse, which is arguably worse.

EDIT: oh, right, the actual topic at hand. Wizards doesn't have to try and kill off Legacy. It's going to happen on it's own.

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

EDIT: oh, right, the actual topic at hand. Wizards doesn't have to try and kill off Legacy. It's going to happen on it's own.

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Pretty much like what happened to Vintage?

Though you have to admit, WotC DID pull the plug on Extended. Tell me how for about three months, Super Jace and SFM were simultaneously banned in Standard and Modern but legal in Extended. It took them another three months to realize that Extended was still a format and only then the mentioned cards above were banned.

Though WotC killing Legacy is unlikely. As long as SCG is running Legacy with Standard opens, it won't happen.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Pretty much like what happened to Vintage?

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Exactly. Of course, Vintage was a way shittier format, but the concept is the same. Skyrocketing prices will lead to a crash (not in card prices, but in player numbers).

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Though you have to admit, WotC DID pull the plug on Extended. Tell me how for about three months, Super Jace and SFM were simultaneously banned in Standard and Modern but legal in Extended. It took them another three months to realize that Extended was still a format and only then the mentioned cards above were banned.

Though WotC killing Legacy is unlikely. As long as SCG is running Legacy with Standard opens, it won't happen.

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To be fair, everyone else forgot extended was a format too. I'd be very, very surprised if Extended was even close to where Vintage Restricted was a decade ago; one area of the country where people play the format regularly (ie, weekly four round tournaments).

Starcity is probably the reason Legacy has been able to keep going as long as it has. With them running the opens and being such a huge store, getting legacy cards is easy, despite how expensive they are. Eventually, interest is going to crash and they'll switch over to modern. Modern is what, six months old? Eight? It's still emerging from infancy and settling down after creation and the multiple rounds of bannings. Once players see that it's stable, they'll start playing it. Six months ago I said Legacy would be alive for two more years, so now it's got about 18 months left.

I was three days off and couldn't follow or add something to the discussion but what I've read so far makes me questioning if this forum would be better off if certain people would refrain posting in threads. Seriously, have you never be taught of basic manners for discussions, namely keeping out flames and other insults? Not to speak of the highly arrogating act to add the phrase in the title of the thread. whoever that was, but you sir are definitely overbearing with your 'authority'. Sure it's the internet and I know that you generally have to deal with the scum of humankind and that people tend to neglect the aforementioned 'manners' but this is getting worse and worse and this thread is a great example for this.

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

Six months ago I said Legacy would be alive for two more years, so now it's got about 18 months left.

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And if it doesn't?

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

I was three days off and couldn't follow or add something to the discussion but what I've read so far makes me questioning if this forum would be better off if certain people would refrain posting in threads. Seriously, have you never be taught of basic manners for discussions, namely keeping out flames and other insults? Not to speak of the highly arrogating act to add the phrase in the title of the thread. whoever that was, but you sir are definitely overbearing with your 'authority'. Sure it's the internet and I know that you generally have to deal with the scum of humankind and that people tend to neglect the aforementioned 'manners' but this is getting worse and worse and this thread is a great example for this.

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Welcome to the internet.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

And if it doesn't?

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Then I was wrong. /shrug. It happens to the best of us.

Moved to Community.

Funny how people only remember Delver, Jace and Snapcaster, but forget Wild Nacatl, Green Sun's Zenith, Qasali Pridemage, Steppe Lynx, Goblin Guide, Thoughtseize, Past in Flames, the new sword cycle, faithless looting, bloodghast, liliana of the veil, and other non blue cards.

Haters gonna hate, SLaters gonna Slate

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

I was three days off and couldn't follow or add something to the discussion but

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But might as well post anyway, right?

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

This is not supposed to be another conspiracy thread [...]

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Liar.

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

I was three days off and couldn't follow or add something to the discussion but what I've read so far makes me questioning if this forum would be better off if certain people would refrain posting in threads. Seriously, have you never be taught of basic manners for discussions, namely keeping out flames and other insults? Not to speak of the highly arrogating act to add the phrase in the title of the thread. whoever that was, but you sir are definitely overbearing with your 'authority'. Sure it's the internet and I know that you generally have to deal with the scum of humankind and that people tend to neglect the aforementioned 'manners' but this is getting worse and worse and this thread is a great example for this.

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Don't you have to call for a Brainstorm ban somewhere?

See, Bardo, that's why this thread deserved Mish-Mash. If only the posters had had the good sense to keep talking about the taste of pee.

Erdvermampfa, I believe you when you say you didn't mean this to be a conspiracy thread, and I also believe that you intended for it to produce intelligent, polite discussion. Neither fact changes that your attempt in said directions was a truly astounding failure in every possible meaning of the word. If this thread were a deck, it would be Legacy Trix. If it were a format, it would be Overextended. If it were a card, it would be Karona, False God.