[EDH] Scion of the Ur-Dragon (Hermit Druid Combo)

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...6745&type=card

Lands: (34)

Scrubland
Badlands
Savannah
Taiga
Tundra
Volcanic Island
Bayou
Tropical Island
Underground Sea

Overgrown Tomb
Watery Grave
Breeding Pool

Arid Mesa
Windswept Heath
Wooded Foothills
Verdant Catacombs
Misty Rainforest
Bloodstained Mire
Polluted Delta
Marsh Flats
Flooded Strand
Scalding Tarn

Sunken Ruins
Twilight Mire
Flooded Grove

Forbidden Orchard
Gemstone Mine
Tarnished Citadel
City of Brass
Reflecting Pool
Command Tower
Exotic Orchard

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Cavern of Souls

Acceleration: (5)

Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Birds of Paradise
Carpet of Flowers
Lotus Petal

Tutors: (18)

Imperial Seal
Grim Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Personal Tutor
Muddle the Mixture
Intuition
Survival of the Fittest
Dimir Infiltrator
Worldly Tutor
Sylvan Tutor
Green Sun's Zenith
Lim-Dûl's Vault
Shred Memory
Eladamri's Call
Gamble
Imperial Recruiter

Protection: (11)

Force of Will
Mana Drain
Misdirection
Sylvan Safekeeper
Pact of Negation
Mizzium Skin
Vines of Vastwood
Ranger’s Guile
Mental Misstep
Mother of Runes
Spellskite

Recursion: (12)

Reanimate
Regrowth
Yawgmoth's Will
Dread Return
Memory’s Journey
Postmortem Lunge
Shallow Grave
Corpse Dance
Pull from Eternity
Unearth
Nostalgic Dreams
Snapcaster Mage

The Combo: (7)

Hermit Druid
Narcomoeba
Fatestitcher
Angel of Glory's Rise
Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Laboratory Maniac
Dregscape Zombie

Removal, etc: (12)

Gilded Drake
Abrupt Decay
Beast Within
Brainstorm
Nature's Claim
Ancient Grudge
Swords to Plowshares
Pongify
Deep Analysis
Cyclonic Rift
Frantic Search
Gitaxian Probe

Most people don't think of broken one card combos when you tell them you have a Scion of the Ur-Dragon EDH deck. It's not like Scion of the Ur-Dragon screams combo when you read his abilities. He seems like the perfect general for a dragon theme deck and he is, but he's also the best five-color general hands down. This makes Scion of the Ur-Dragon the best general for supporting the most broken one-card combo in EDH.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...5166&type=card

Hermit Druid is so powerful as to be worth devoting an entire deck to finding, protecting, and activating him. The deck doesn't need much in the way of a backup plan, because what's going to win through a turn three Hermit Druid activation with two to three pieces of removal, protection, or countermagic? With this deck, you're letting your opponents know what you're up to almost immediately and daring them to stop you. They won't be able to most of the time.

How the combo works:

Activate Hermit Druid. This will put your entire library into your graveyard because you run no basic lands. Narcomoeba will trigger and be put onto the battlefield. Pay U to unearth Fatestitcher, tap Fatestitcher to untap a land that can produce black mana. Use this land to unearth Dregscape Zombie. You now have at least three creatures which you can sacrifice to Dread Return Angel of Glory's Rise. Angel of Glory's Rise's, trigger will return Azami, Lady of Scrolls, Laboratory Maniac, Sylvan Safekeeper, Imperial Recruiter, and Hermit Druid to the battlefield. Use Azami, Lady of Scrolls to tap Laboratory Maniac, Sylvan Safekeeper, or herself to draw a card and win the game (via Laboratory Maniac's ability). If someone tries to deal with Laboratory Maniac in response to drawing a card, give it shroud with Sylvan Safekeeper or tap another Wizard to win the game in response. About the only cards that can stop this once Dread Return resolves are Stifle on Angel of Glory's Rise's trigger and split second cards.

Now wait a minute...

"Isn't this combo easy to disrupt?" you might ask. Creature removal, countermagic, graveyard hate, and Pithing Needle all disrupt the combo. What happens if Hermit Druid gets exiled? Even a well timed bounce spell on a creature can prevent Dread Return from being cast.

It's a lot harder to disrupt Hermit Druid than you think.

Let's look at the worst case scenario --- after activating Hermit Druid your Dread Return is counterspelled, one of your three creatures to cast it is killed/bounced, or someone Faerie Macabres your Angel of Glory's Rise in response to your Dread Return. Your entire library is in your graveyard and you can't use your combo. It looks hopeless, right?

Not at all.

Pull from Eternity and Memory's Journey can save you from almost any situation. By using Pull from Eternity to bring back an exiled Memory's Journey, you can slowly draw any card in your 99 as many times as you need to post-Hermit Druid activation. It's not an ideal situation to be in, but you're never truly hopeless as long as you can cycle Pull from Eternity and Memory's Journey.

What if Hermit Druid is exiled? If Hermit Druid is exiled, you can tutor for Pull from Eternity to put him into your graveyard and then use Shallow Grave or Postmortem Lunge to combo without hardly missing a beat.

Let's look at some common cards that stop our combo and how many cards we run that get around them:

Tormod's Crypt: 8 cards (Abrupt Decay, Ancient Grudge, Nature's Claim, Beast Within, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Pact of Negation, Cyclonic Rift)

Relic of Progenitus: 9 cards (Abrupt Decay, Ancient Grudge, Nature's Claim, Beast Within, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Pact of Negation, Mental Misstep, Cyclonic Rift)

Nihil Spellbomb: 9 cards ([cards]Abrupt Decay, Ancient Grudge, Nature's Claim, Beast Within, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Pact of Negation, Mental Misstep, Cyclonic Rift)

Leyline of the Void: 3 - 6 cards (Nature's Claim, Beast Within, Cyclonic Rift, possibly Force of Will, Mana Drain, Pact of Negation)

Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile: 11 cards (Force of Will, Mana Drain, Pact of Negation, Spellskite, Muddle the Mixture, Mental Misstep, Mizzium Skin, Vines of Vastwood, Ranger's Guile, Mother of Runes, Sylvan Safekeeper)

You get the idea. These counts don't even include cards that can tutor for answers. It's not uncommon for this deck to be able to play through 2-3 pieces of hate without breaking a sweat.

Give Hermit Dru--- err, Scion of the Ur-Dragon a whirl. You'll be surprised at how powerful, consistent, and resilient it is.

Questions:

What can be done to make the deck more optimal/consistent?

Are any card choices sub-par?

Would Spell Pierce be better than one of the Green Hexproof spells?

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Would Spell Pierce be better than one of the Green Hexproof spells?

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I used to run Spell Pierce back when I ran three-color Hermit Druid, and I didn't like it. The hexproof cards protect Hermit Druid from things like Gilded Drake as well as any noncreature spell that targets. The advantage of Spell Pierce is that it can hit things like Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, and Mana Drain, but it is unreliable. It might be worth another look.

I'd probably cut Dispel for it if anything, but I'm not a fan of either card.

There's still no reason not to run the single Moltensteel Dragon in ANY Scion of the Ur-Dragon list. If a player has a ton of disruption for your combo, sometimes it's more efficient just to destroy them rather than dig for fixes for the problem.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

There's still no reason not to run the single Moltensteel Dragon in ANY Scion of the Ur-Dragon list. If a player has a ton of disruption for your combo, sometimes it's more efficient just to destroy them rather than dig for fixes for the problem.

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Hmmm...

It would be nice to one-shot people with the general, but 34 life is a ton to have to pay. Maybe if I also ran Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon so I'd only need to pay 12 life. This deck only runs 40 cards that make mana which makes me wonder how often I'll be casting Scion of the Ur-Dragon.

I wonder if a Scion of the Ur-Dragon toolbox would be worth running. It would probably have Balefire Dragon to kill opposing creatures/stave off damage, Steel Hellkite for removing low-mana problem permanents, Dragon Mage and/or Nicol Bolas to get problem cards out of people's hands/refil my hand/discard combo pieces if I draw them, and Moltensteel Dragon and Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon for killing people.

I don't think it's possible, but maybe Worldgorger Dragon combo could be in here as well.

I don't have a whole ton of experience with this deck yet. I've played Hermit Druid decks before, but not this one. It'll be hard to evaluate suggestions right now, but keep them coming!

What about Stifle and/or Trickbind as additional outs to graveyard hate? All of your current answers are proactive - they cast Crypt, you blow it up. Stifle and Trickbind are reactive, they activate the Crypt, you counter the trigger.

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Originally Posted by Davran

What about Stifle and/or Trickbind as additional outs to graveyard hate? All of your current answers are proactive - they cast Crypt, you blow it up. Stifle and Trickbind are reactive, they activate the Crypt, you counter the trigger.

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I've considered Stifle. Trickbind is too much mana for what it does. Proactive answers are better than reactive answers. I can play proactive answers whenever I have mana, but I have to play reactive answers when my opponents dictate, however inconvenient. I can EOT a Nature's Claim on their Tormod's Crypt and then have the mana available on my turn to do other things.

I'd like to try Stifle, but I can't find room for it. Do you have an idea for what to cut?

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Originally Posted by Kuma

I've considered Stifle. Trickbind is too much mana for what it does. Proactive answers are better than reactive answers. I can play proactive answers whenever I have mana, but I have to play reactive answers when my opponents dictate, however inconvenient. I can EOT a Nature's Claim on their Tormod's Crypt and then have the mana available on my turn to do other things.

I'd like to try Stifle, but I can't find room for it. Do you have an idea for what to cut?

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Crumble and Oxidize seem redundant to each other. Of the two, Oxidize is objectively better since it doesn't give your opponent some life. Playing Stifle over Crumble might help to diversify your hate...plus you can't Crumble a Bojuka Bog.

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Originally Posted by Davran

Crumble and Oxidize seem redundant to each other. Of the two, Oxidize is objectively better since it doesn't give your opponent some life. Playing Stifle over Crumble might help to diversify your hate...plus you can't Crumble a Bojuka Bog.

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Having redundancy with cheap artifact destruction isn't a bad thing. My opponents' life totals are almost always irrelevant. Bojuka Bog is only a problem if it's coming out at instant speed via Crop Rotation or Knight of the Reliquary, or if something went horribly wrong and I'm cycling Pull from Eternity and Memory's Journey.

Hate diversification is a good thing, for sure. I'll see if I'd rather have a Stifle or Crumble as I play and I'll see if the change is worth it. The card certainly has other uses and it pitches to Force of Will and Misdirection in a deck without many blue cards.

- Dispel

+ Spellskite

This is such an obvious switch, I'm wondering why I didn't see this earlier. Spellskite is way better at protecting Hermit Druid than Dispel.

This seems a tad like a 1v1 list - do you happen to have a multiplayer variant or some suggestions for that as well? Or is this list also good for multiplayer?

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Originally Posted by Dresden

This seems a tad like a 1v1 list - do you happen to have a multiplayer variant or some suggestions for that as well? Or is this list also good for multiplayer?

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This is totally a multiplayer list. Most decks aren't running many pieces of hate for you, the deck plays through 2-3 pieces of hate no problem, I've played through 6 pieces before, and this deck is even faster than most top tier EDH decks. Give it a shot in your multiplayer group, you won't be disappointed with its power. Though I can't promise your friends will be happy with you. This is the strongest EDH deck I've ever seen. I don't bring it out very often because it isn't very sporting.

It's also stupid good 1v1.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

This is totally a multiplayer list. Most decks aren't running many pieces of hate for you, the deck plays through 2-3 pieces of hate no problem, I've played through 6 pieces before, and this deck is even faster than most top tier EDH decks. Give it a shot in your multiplayer group, you won't be disappointed with its power. Though I can't promise your friends will be happy with you. This is the strongest EDH deck I've ever seen. I don't bring it out very often because it isn't very sporting.

It's also stupid good 1v1.

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Is it actually better than oona?

The Mimeoplasm + Murderous Redcap + Lord of Extinction takes one less card for the combo.
It is worse with Buried Alive, though.

You might want to have a Cabal Therapy in there, in case one of the combo pieces is suck in your hand.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Is it actually better than oona?

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It's way better than Oona, Queen of the Fae. It's roughly as fast and many times more resilient.

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Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch

The Mimeoplasm + Murderous Redcap + Lord of Extinction takes one less card for the combo.
It is worse with Buried Alive, though.

You might want to have a Cabal Therapy in there, in case one of the combo pieces is suck in your hand.

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Unless I'm missing something, that combo only kills one player. I need to be able to kill everyone in multiplayer.

I've thought about Cabal Therapy before. If you do have a piece stuck in your hand, you'll still need an extra creature to sacrifice to the Cabal Therapy, which is kind of awkward. The deck does run ways to get pieces out of your hand, namely Survival of the Fittest and Brainstorm, but I'd like to add more as long as they don't impede functionality.

I'd like to give Cabal Therapy a shot, but the list is pretty tight. If you can suggest a good cut, I'll try Cabal Therapy.

w00t, post number 1000!

How well is the deck going to perform without the ridiculously expensive cards (i.e. Grim Tutor, Imperial Seal, Imperial Recruiter) and what would you replace them with?

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Originally Posted by jjjoness'

How well is the deck going to perform without the ridiculously expensive cards (i.e. Grim Tutor, Imperial Seal, Imperial Recruiter) and what would you replace them with?

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The deck won't be as fast or consistent, but it will still be ridiculously good. I'd probably replace Grim Tutor, Imperial Seal, and Imperial Recruiter with Cruel Tutor, Fauna Shaman, and Scroll Rack to keep functionality as close as possible. Also, there's always Stifle, Apostle's Blessing, Dispel, and cards of that nature to make sure your Hermit Druid sticks around.

Return to Ravnica changes:

- Maelstrom Pulse
- Personal Tutor
- Path to Exile
- Crumble

+ Mizzium Skin
+ Abrupt Decay
+ Treasured Find
+ Pongify

At three mana, Maelstrom Pulse was a little more expensive than I'd like my answers to be. Abrupt Decay is pretty much a straight upgrade. The "same name" clause is almost useless in EDH and most of the things I want to kill cost three or less anyway. Personal Tutor was slow and unnecessary as it could only get Hermit Druid indirectly. Since Path to Exile and Pongify have almost the same functionality, but one of them pitches to Force of Will and Misdirection, I made the switch.

Mizzium Skin gives me another way to protect Hermit Druid that also pitches to Force of Will/Misdirection. Treasured Find is practically Regrowth number two. Running more ways to re-use removal/tutors/Hermit Druid seems good.

Updated first post.

I've got a new, more efficient kill stolen shamelessly from the Cephalid Breakfast thread.

Angel of Glory's Rise
Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Laboratory Maniac

This takes one less card than the Devoted Druid/Morselhoarder/Necrotic Ooze/Shivan Hellkite kill.

You put your entire library into your graveyard just like before. Dread Return Angel of Glory's Rise returning Azami, Lady of Scrolls and Laboratory Maniac to the battlefield (you also get back Sylvan Safekeeper, Hermit Druid, and Imperial Recruiter as well). Tap either Azami, Lady of Scrolls, Laboratory Maniac, or Sylvan Safekeeper to win the game.

There are pros and cons to this new kill.

Pros:

- It takes up one less card slot in the deck.
- It can win through some cards that Shivan Hellkite couldn't, e.g. Energy Field, Solitary Confinement, and Leyline of Sanctity.
- Two of the win conditions are blue and can be pitched to Force of Will and Misdirection in a dire emergency.
- Scion of the Ur-Dragon can be switched to something more useful, perhaps Child of Alara or a yet unprinted card.

Cons:

- Split second cards like Wipe Away and Trickbind can now interact with the deck post-Dread Return.
- Stifle on Angel of Glory's Rise's trigger is super awkward.
- Buried Alive is no longer an option. This is both good and bad, as I'd never actually needed to use Buried Alive switching kills frees up another slot in the deck.
- Angel of Glory's Rise is a lot harder to cast than Necrotic Ooze if it gets stuck in your hand.

I think the pros outweigh the cons significantly.

- Devoted Druid
- Morselhoarder
- Necrotic Ooze
- Shivan Hellkite
- Buried Alive

+ Angel of Glory's Rise
+ Azami, Lady of Scrolls
+ Laboratory Maniac
+ Personal Tutor
+ Maelstrom Pulse

First post will be updated when I get home.

Assuming I don't have either Imperial Seal or Grim Tutor, what are reasonable substitutes?

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Assuming I don't have either Imperial Seal or Grim Tutor, what are reasonable substitutes?

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I'd probably run two out of three of Cruel Tutor, Fauna Shaman, and Scroll Rack if I didn't have those cards. Recent cuts like Crumble and Path to Exile could go back in, but you want searching power more than anything.

Gatecrash changes:

- Swords to Plowshares

+ Rapid Hybridization

Since the game probably won't go long enough for the exile or the 3/3 to matter, Rapid Hybridization is better than Swords to Plowshares as there are more blue mana sources in the deck and it pitches to Force of Will and Misdirection

What situations do you find yourself in where Yawgmoth's Will is good? Its cost is somewhat prohibitive, and you can't combo the turn you play it. Unless I'm missing something obvious, I think that this spot might be better served as Eternal Witness. Also Chrome Mox is a free mana source missing from your list that allows you to drop a turn 1 Hermit Druid/Survival of the Fittest/two-mana tutor. I would think that the speed boost it gives you is well worth the cost of whatever you imprint (likely an excess tutor). Along the same vein, Mox Diamond seems like it would make the cut for the same reason. The potential for turn one/two shenanigans seems too good to pass up. Elvish Spirit Guide and/or Simian Spirit Guide for the same reason.

Note: All of the following ideas are spur of the moment brainstorming and may in fact be terrible.

Dryad Arbor is another card that might be worth a look. It makes running Diabolic Intent a possibility though I don't know whether or not that tutor is actually good. It also turns fetchlands into another potential creature in case you come up short on creatures for Dread Return. Also in the rare instance it can accelerate you on turn 1 if you don't need to Green Sun's Zenith for Hermit for whatever reason.

Have you considered Trinket Mage? It gives you a creature-based way to dig out a Pithing Needle if you need one, and worst case it can just grab Mana Crypt essentially just costing U and ramping you for the next turn. Also, it lets you play around with a few other potential deck ideas such as maybe swapping Lightning Greaves for Shuko so you have a creature-based tutor to combo with Cephalid Illusionist as well. Since haste from Greaves is amazing though, maybe instead Stoneforge Mystic?

Maybe there's a way to make Signal the Clans work? You can grab Imperial Recruiter, Hermit Druid, ??? (maybe Cephalid Illusionist or Trinket Mage). Merchant Scroll for Intuition might be better though maybe still not good enough. Is Summoner's Pact too greedy? Unearth to complement/replace Reanimate?

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Originally Posted by LegacyStudent

What situations do you find yourself in where Yawgmoth's Will is good? Its cost is somewhat prohibitive, and you can't combo the turn you play it. Unless I'm missing something obvious, I think that this spot might be better served as Eternal Witness.

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The only advantage Yawgmoth's Will has over Eternal Witness is that it's really good when you're using Pull from Eternity and Memory's Journey to try to win after a Dread Return failed. You can shuffle make Yawgmoth's Will/Pull from Eternity the only cards in your deck and win by casting Yawgmoth's Will and then Shallow Grave/Corpse Dance/Reanimate for Angel of Glory's Rise with Pact of Negation/Force of Will/Misdirection as backup. Remember, you can order your graveyard however you want from a Hermit Druid activation. Always make Angel of Glory's Rise the top creature card in your graveyard.

Eternal Witness is solid, but I'm not sure I need a three mana way to get Hermit Druid back besides Yawgmoth's Will which has a dual purpose. It would be better if I decided to run Signal the Clans, but I think I have better tutors.

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Originally Posted by LegacyStudent

Also Chrome Mox is a free mana source missing from your list that allows you to drop a turn 1 Hermit Druid/Survival of the Fittest/two-mana tutor. I would think that the speed boost it gives you is well worth the cost of whatever you imprint (likely an excess tutor). Along the same vein, Mox Diamond seems like it would make the cut for the same reason. The potential for turn one/two shenanigans seems too good to pass up. Elvish Spirit Guide and/or Simian Spirit Guide for the same reason.

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Chrome Mox is an interesting suggestion, but I very rarely have a spare card in my hand and it only speeds me up if it's in my opening hand. I don't think 34 lands is enough for Mox Diamond. Elvish Spirit Guide is definitely the best suggestion here. It would be Lotus Petal number two.

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Originally Posted by LegacyStudent

Dryad Arbor is another card that might be worth a look. It makes running Diabolic Intent a possibility though I don't know whether or not that tutor is actually good. It also turns fetchlands into another potential creature in case you come up short on creatures for Dread Return. Also in the rare instance it can accelerate you on turn 1 if you don't need to Green Sun's Zenith for Hermit for whatever reason.

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I don't think I'd use Green Sun's Zenith for Dryad Arbor very often, but it would be nice to have the option. I do like the idea of being able to fetch for a creature, but I would need to have Fatestitcher and Narcomoeba in my hand, or one of them and no land drop for Bloodghast before I'd need an extra creature.

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Originally Posted by LegacyStudent

Have you considered Trinket Mage? It gives you a creature-based way to dig out a Pithing Needle if you need one, and worst case it can just grab Mana Crypt essentially just costing U and ramping you for the next turn. Also, it lets you play around with a few other potential deck ideas such as maybe swapping Lightning Greaves for Shuko so you have a creature-based tutor to combo with Cephalid Illusionist as well. Since haste from Greaves is amazing though, maybe instead Stoneforge Mystic?

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Finding Pithing Needle isn't important enough to run Trinket Mage. The deck also doesn't need to ramp very often. Its kill condition costs two, and you rarely ever need more than four mana. I haven't posted it yet, but I cut Cephalid Illusionist from the list, because I never found myself needing to win that way. The haste from Lightning Greaves is nice sometimes, but it's not a crucial component of the deck. If Hermit Druid dies, there's always Shallow Grave/Postmortem Lunge/Corpse Dance to get him back with haste. If he doesn't die, then you win.

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Originally Posted by LegacyStudent

Maybe there's a way to make Signal the Clans work? You can grab Imperial Recruiter, Hermit Druid, ??? (maybe Cephalid Illusionist or Trinket Mage).

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The third card in the pile would have to be Eternal Witness to get back Signal the Clans and try again. I don't think it's worth running Eternal Witness to be able to run Signal the Clans. We have so many better tutors.

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Originally Posted by LegacyStudent

Is Summoner's Pact too greedy?

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Unless I have Lightning Greaves, I'll always have to pay the :2::g::g:. The only exception I can think of is if I respond to the lose trigger with a Hermit Druid activation and use Shallow Grave/Corpse Dance to get Angel of Glory's Rise and win on my upkeep. It's an interesting thought, but it's probably too expensive or narrow every time I draw it.

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Originally Posted by LegacyStudent

Unearth to complement/replace Reanimate?

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Great idea! I totally forgot about that card. I'm not sure it's going to replace Reanimate because that can do good things with Angel of Glory's Rise after a failed win attempt, but I'll definitely try to work it in.

Thanks for your suggestions. I'll take them under consideration.

For now:

- Maelstrom Pulse
- Cephalid Illusionist

+ Deep Analysis
+ Corpse Dance

At three mana and sorcery speed, Maelstrom Pulse was the worst piece of removal in the deck. Cephalid Illusionist was an unnecessary backup piece.

There's no card I want to topdeck more than Shallow Grave or Postmortem Lunge. I don't see why I shouldn't run every similar card, so Corpse Dance is in. Deep Analysis gets you out of a few weird situations after a failed combo while acting as card draw otherwise. I'm not sure I need it as long as Yawgmoth's Will is in the deck, but I'm giving it another try.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

There's no card I want to topdeck more than Shallow Grave or Postmortem Lunge. I don't see why I shouldn't run every similar card, so Corpse Dance is in. Deep Analysis gets you out of a few weird situations after a failed combo while acting as card draw otherwise. I'm not sure I need it as long as Yawgmoth's Will is in the deck, but I'm giving it another try.

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If you are adding more GY support, Entomb would be good. Also maybe Anger instead of Lightning Greaves.

EDIT: Also Nostalgic Dreams could be a good recursion outlet that doubles as a discard outlet over something like Treasured Find. Discarding dead draws like combo pieces, Anger, (or even Hermit if you are holding a hasty reanimate spell) and grabbing back tutors/fetchlands.

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EDIT EDIT: Ok, I finally got around to building and play testing a very similar build for a few games. All I've got to say is, wow, the deck is scary. Wins by turn 3 happened surprisingly frequently and I was impressed at the ease with which it could blow through a single piece of hate or two. Against GY hate (Tormod's Crypt, Rest In Peace, Leyline of the Void, etc.), I found that once Hermit Druid was in play, the most effective plan was to simply tutor up Laboratory Maniac and hardcast him (instead of trying to dig out enchantment/artifact destruction), circumventing the graveyard completely. Also Anger's haste didn't seem to be relevant too often. It was almost always better to just find and play Druid turn two then pass the turn rather than waiting and trying to setup Anger first. It did occasionally speed up the activation by a turn, but I'm not sure if it is better than Lightning Greaves.

Merchant Scroll was decent and would grab Mystical Tutor when I needed Entomb otherwise it nabbed Intuition. I added Frantic Search to try and act as a free discard outlet, but never drew it nor needed to tutor for it. I tried different discard methods incase combo pieces were in hand, like Careful Study or Faithless Looting and I think Cabal Therapy is still the best option though that may necessitate running a Bridge From Below and/or Dryad Arbor Speaking of Arbor, it was pretty much a non-factor in the games I tested, so the jury is still out on that one. One card that should definitely be tested and sort of replaces the role of Cephalid Illusionist as another win condition is Demonic Consultation. If Hermit Druid is shutdown for whatever reason, or you drew Laboratory Maniac and can't discard it, you can cast it and follow it up with Consultation naming a card not in your deck.

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Originally Posted by LegacyStudent

If you are adding more GY support, Entomb would be good. Also maybe Anger instead of Lightning Greaves.

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I've considered Entomb, but the problem is that it makes getting Hermit Druid into a two-card combo. I'd also rather save cards like Shallow Grave for when Hermit Druid gets killed. I don't run nearly enough mountains or ways to get creatures in the graveyard to support Anger.

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Originally Posted by LegacyStudent

EDIT: Also Nostalgic Dreams could be a good recursion outlet that doubles as a discard outlet over something like Treasure Find. Discarding dead draws like combo pieces, Anger, (or even Hermit if you are holding a hasty reanimate spell) and grabbing back tutors/fetchlands.

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Nostalgic Dreams is a great idea. It's probably better than Treasured Find at least. Thanks for all the great ideas lately. I'll be trying to work some of them in.

One other thing that I've noticed is that this list has a difficult time casting either Misdirection or Force of Will as protection due to a lack of blue cards. I'm trying out Cyclonic Rift, Simic Charm, Snapback, Plaxmanta and Gitaxian Probe to see if the boost in blue-count makes a significant difference.

Also I'm testing Dregscape Zombie over Bloodghast since I've found that trying to activate landfall can sometimes be a problem, whereas unearthing Fatestitcher -> Dregscape Zombie feels more reliable.

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Originally Posted by LegacyStudent

One other thing that I've noticed is that this list has a difficult time casting either Misdirection or Force of Will as protection due to a lack of blue cards. I'm trying out Cyclonic Rift, Simic Charm, Snapback, Plaxmanta and Gitaxian Probe to see if the boost in blue-count makes a significant difference.

Also I'm testing Dregscape Zombie over Bloodghast since I've found that trying to activate landfall can sometimes be a problem, whereas unearthing Fatestitcher -> Dregscape Zombie feels more reliable.

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It's true that the blue count isn't where it should ideally be for Force of Will and Misdirection. I like the cards you've chose to run, but the important question is "What aren't you running?" I don't want to downgrade slots in the deck just to increase the blue count.

What does Dregscape Zombie do for us? The only thing I can think of is that it lets us Dread Return without a land drop if we have Narcomoeba or Fatestitcher in our hands. That's pretty corner case. I'd run something like Body Snatcher first, because at least that can let us win with any combo piece in hand.

Among other changes, I've cut:

Oxidize
Ancient Grudge
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Revoker
Snuff Out

These are cards that I never ever tutored for and felt unnecessary. Aside from the hate I tested against, I tried to brainstorm a list of things I'd run into and what I'd need to tutor up to answer them and found that Abrupt Decay already covered almost everything relevant. I then made sure the list could make Intuition piles with the remaining removal to answer all of the scenarios as well.

I think Dregscape Zombie does everything that Bloodghast does, without the cornercase scenarios where Bloodghast doesn't work. I'm running extra mana sources (which could explain why I've noticed the difference more often), so I've had seveal situations such as Land -> remove Spirit Guide -> Druid, Or Land -> Mana Crypt -> GSZ for Druid, Or Land -> Chrome Mox -> Druid. Other times I'll have Druid in the GY, and I can pay 2 to hasty reanimate and then G to activate..... If I have Narcomeba in hand, and either no land, or a fetch land (and no other untapped blue source)... I can't cast Dread Return. If instead I had Dregscape, I could play and crack the fetch before activating Druid to get a blue/black source, or use the Fatestitcher to untap a black source to unearth Dregscape.

Basically I've run into several situations where Dregscape would have been better than Bloodghast, but I have yet to run into a situation where Bloodghast is better. The only scenario that I can think of where Bloodghast wins and Dregscape doesn't is if activating Druid taps you out of mana... and you still have a land drop to make, but it can't produce blue or black. I don't see that scenario realistically occurring since you can plan your land drops accordingly to ensure that you have the correct colors available... is there some common scenario that I'm just missing?

Also, in the course of my tinkering I realized that Snapcaster Mage is definitely worth adding. He's blue, can recycle tutors/removal, is another Dread Return body, and has some potential for recursion shenanigans. Most notably he adds redundancy (in conjunction with Gitaxian Probe) if Azami ends up in your hand. You can still combo, and when Angel hits play, it reanimates Snapcaster, which then targets Probe and still lets you win that turn. He's also an Unearth target which I'm sure is relevant in some scenario... probably.

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Originally Posted by LegacyStudent

One other thing that I've noticed is that this list has a difficult time casting either Misdirection or Force of Will as protection due to a lack of blue cards. I'm trying out Cyclonic Rift, Simic Charm, Snapback, Plaxmanta and Gitaxian Probe to see if the boost in blue-count makes a significant difference.

Also I'm testing Dregscape Zombie over Bloodghast since I've found that trying to activate landfall can sometimes be a problem, whereas unearthing Fatestitcher -> Dregscape Zombie feels more reliable.

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Hi new to the forum, not new to EDH or this deck. I like the modified wincon at one card less it makes sense. A lot of builds I have seen run the Crucible of Worlds Life from the Loam engine. It only adds resiliencies to the deck in the case of a missed combo. This strategy may not be necessary in your build, but I have seen it work effectively in other builds.

I have goldfished a version of this deck on cockatrice and it is a total monster. It is also not easy to play, and has a rather high learning curve. (I would not put it together IRL) It’s not the card pool, it’s an I want to have friends that will play EDH with me, type thing. That said I am still fascinated by this deck.

Other than that, as a joke I think it would be funny to sit down with this exact deck and be running Atogatog as the general. Since Scion is never played nor are any dragons. I would only ever do this playing the deck at something like Gencon to remove some suspicion. I know when I sit down and see Scion staring back at me, I’m already assuming Hermit Druid I see Atogatog I think nothing of it. I know the relevance of that might be low, but this deck has made a real name for itself in the competitive EDH scene.

Also do you have a link to your three colored Hermit build? I have been thinking of putting one together and I’m looking for a starting point. I know it would lose a lot of resilience and consistency but that I think is the challenge of it.

Mox

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LegacyStudent

Among other changes, I've cut:

Oxidize
Ancient Grudge
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Revoker
Snuff Out

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Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, and Snuff Out I can see cutting. Oxidize is a little narrow, so maybe that one too. Ancient Grudge is an amazing card, and is what I almost always tutor for when I need to answer an artifact. Artifacts are the most common permanent type that messes us up, and few cards answer them better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LegacyStudent

I think Dregscape Zombie does everything that Bloodghast does, without the cornercase scenarios where Bloodghast doesn't work. I'm running extra mana sources (which could explain why I've noticed the difference more often), so I've had seveal situations such as Land -> remove Spirit Guide -> Druid, Or Land -> Mana Crypt -> GSZ for Druid, Or Land -> Chrome Mox -> Druid. Other times I'll have Druid in the GY, and I can pay 2 to hasty reanimate and then G to activate..... If I have Narcomeba in hand, and either no land, or a fetch land (and no other untapped blue source)... I can't cast Dread Return. If instead I had Dregscape, I could play and crack the fetch before activating Druid to get a blue/black source, or use the Fatestitcher to untap a black source to unearth Dregscape.

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That was kind of my point. Most of the scenarios where Dregscape Zombie is good start with "If I have Narcomoeba in hand" which is a pretty rare occurrence with the Partial Paris mulligan. That said, the more I think about it, the more I realize there isn't much downside to making the switch and there is some upside.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LegacyStudent

Basically I've run into several situations where Dregscape would have been better than Bloodghast, but I have yet to run into a situation where Bloodghast is better. The only scenario that I can think of where Bloodghast wins and Dregscape doesn't is if activating Druid taps you out of mana... and you still have a land drop to make, but it can't produce blue or black. I don't see that scenario realistically occurring since you can plan your land drops accordingly to ensure that you have the correct colors available... is there some common scenario that I'm just missing?

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No, you're right. That's a pretty rare situation especially since like every land in the deck can make blue or black.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LegacyStudent

Also, in the course of my tinkering I realized that Snapcaster Mage is definitely worth adding. He's blue, can recycle tutors/removal, is another Dread Return body, and has some potential for recursion shenanigans. Most notably he adds redundancy (in conjunction with Gitaxian Probe) if Azami ends up in your hand. You can still combo, and when Angel hits play, it reanimates Snapcaster, which then targets Probe and still lets you win that turn. He's also an Unearth target which I'm sure is relevant in some scenario... probably.

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I still think Body Snatcher is the best card for when something gets stuck in your hand. However, if we run it, we also need to add Cabal Therapy to sacrifice it. I'm not sure that's worth two slots in the deck, but if you're going to run two cards for when things get stuck in your hand, it should be these two because they work for Angel of Glory's Rise and Laboratory Maniac as well as Azami, Lady of Scrolls. Snapcaster Mage is a solid card in the late game, but he's miserable early on. He doesn't really help the turn 3-4 goldfish. That said, he's pretty amazing when things go wrong.

LegacyStudent, if you could post your list that would be a big help. I'm going to work on this and probably post an update this week.

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Originally Posted by Moxmadness

Other than that, as a joke I think it would be funny to sit down with this exact deck and be running Atogatog as the general. Since Scion is never played nor are any dragons. I would only ever do this playing the deck at something like Gencon to remove some suspicion. I know when I sit down and see Scion staring back at me, I’m already assuming Hermit Druid I see Atogatog I think nothing of it. I know the relevance of that might be low, but this deck has made a real name for itself in the competitive EDH scene.

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Yeah, one of the advantages of the Angel of Glory's Rise kill is that you don't need Scion of the Ur-Dragon as your general anymore. None of the five color generals do anything special for the deck, so pick whichever one you think hides the plan the best.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moxmadness

Also do you have a link to your three colored Hermit build? I have been thinking of putting one together and I’m looking for a starting point. I know it would lose a lot of resilience and consistency but that I think is the challenge of it.

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http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ght=Mimeoplasm

Note that I haven't worked on it in about a year, so it can probably be improved. It should still be a good starting point for you though.

Thanks for the link. Your list illustrated to me what I had already been thinking in my head, that this needs to be a five color deck. Losing pull from eternity and imperial tutor seems like a huge deal. Plus in five colors the mana base is just easier to work with. This deck is definitely making me want to pack stifle, bind(not a good card) Willbender and Voidmage Husher Into decks that can run them.

I run a semi all in Damia deck. It’s not optimized, I do run basic lands and Hermit Druid is still an all star in the deck. I’m really surprised he has not been hit by the ban hammer yet. To good for Legacy? Ok in EDH????

Also with out Pull from Eternity and Stifle what is your back up plan for a Crop Rotation Bo Bog? I know it’s not that likely to come up but with the Prime Time ban I have been seeing crop rotation pop up more and more in decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moxmadness

Also with out Pull from Eternity and Stifle what is your back up plan for a Crop Rotation Bo Bog? I know it’s not that likely to come up but with the Prime Time ban I have been seeing crop rotation pop up more and more in decks.

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There really isn't a plan for Crop Rotation except to counterspell it. That's probably the worst thing that can happen to the deck, but there isn't much that can be done about it. You could run cards like Stifle, but you still need to have it at the right moment and have an extra mana to cast it. I like to run anti-hate cards that I can cast anytime to not put too many constraints on the turn I'm trying to win. You'll also draw Stifle tons of times when you don't need it. Is it worth drawing narrow hate ten times when it's poor for every one time when it's good? I don't think so, and I've built my deck to reflect that philosophy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kuma

Is it worth drawing narrow hate ten times when it's poor for every one time when it's good? I don't think so, and I've built my deck to reflect that philosophy.

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I agree that you have built this deck to reflect that philosophy, and I think it’s probably the fastest most resilient EDH deck that I have seen. I thought I saw stifle in your list; I was not trying to recommend it. I think it is a better card then you give it credit for. I guess most every deck will have some silver bullet, fortunately yours is a very small bullet, and you do back it up with a lot of counters.
Out of curiosity are there any match ups you have found that give you trouble? I have a hard time imagining any bad match ups because the clock is so short. I mean late game for this deck is turn 5 would something like a good Clique build be control-ish enough or do you just play through their counters and go on your merry way?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moxmadness

Out of curiosity are there any match ups you have found that give you trouble? I have a hard time imagining any bad match ups because the clock is so short. I mean late game for this deck is turn 5 would something like a good Clique build be control-ish enough or do you just play through their counters and go on your merry way?

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Gaddock Teeg is pretty miserable because I can't win with him out, I have limited answers to him, and as a general they're guaranteed repeated access to him. I play this deck exclusively multiplayer, and I've never played it against a deck with tons of counterspells because those kind of decks don't work very well in multiplayer. The most counterspells in a deck that I've played against is 8-ish, and while sometimes they'd draw two or three and it would be problematic, most of the time they drew 0-1 and it was fine. Getting your Hermit Druid counterspelled isn't a big deal, but getting Dread Return countered is. You can of course still win with Pull from Eternity, but if that gets countered too, you're sunk.

The only real answer I see to that is something like Phyrexian Metamorph and I don't see any slot for him. Plus as mentioned before the window of usefulness is too small. Running tuck effects or STP in your list seems bad. There is always the host of counterspells you pack But you are right it is not possible to win with him on board. How prevalent is Teeg in your meta? I rarely see him in mine all the G/W decks are usually Captain Sisay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moxmadness

The only real answer I see to that is something like Phyrexian Metamorph and I don't see any slot for him. Plus as mentioned before the window of usefulness is too small. Running tuck effects or STP in your list seems bad. There is always the host of counterspells you pack But you are right it is not possible to win with him on board. How prevalent is Teeg in your meta? I rarely see him in mine all the G/W decks are usually Captain Sisay

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Gaddock Teeg isn't very prevalent, but my buddy is probably going to build him soon. Phantasmal Image would be better than Phyrexian Metamorph for dealing with him, but the plan will probably have to be to bounce/kill him EOT, untap, and win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kuma

LegacyStudent, if you could post your list that would be a big help. I'm going to work on this and probably post an update this week.

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Quote:

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*Same Manabase* - 34

Combo - 7
Hermit Druid
Narcomoeba
Fatestitcher
Angel of Glory's Rise
Laboratory Maniac
Dregscape Zombie
Dread Return

Recursion - 9
Corpse Dance
Unearth
Reanimate
Postmortem Lunge
Shallow Grave
Life // Death
Pull From Eternity
Memory's Journey
Snapcaster Mage

Protection - 9
Force of Will
Mana Drain
Misdirection
Pact of Negation
Mental Misstep
Sylvan Safekeeper
Plaxmanta
Mizzium Skin
Simic Charm

Removal - 7
Abrupt Decay
Cyclonic Rift
Nature's Claim
Snapback
Rapid Hybridization
Pongify
Gilded Drake

Tutors - 21
Imperial Seal
Grim Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Personal Tutor
Merchant Scroll
Intuition
Survival of the Fittest
Worldly Tutor
Sylvan Tutor
Green Sun's Zenith
Lim-Dûl's Vault
Eladamri's Call
Gamble
Imperial Recruiter
Dimir Infiltrator
Shred Memory
Muddle the Mixture
Tainted Pact
Entomb

Acceleration - 8
Simian Spirit Guide
Elvish Spirit Guide
Chrome Mox
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Lotus Petal
Birds of Paradise
Noble Hierarch

Draw Effects - 4
Frantic Search
Brainstorm
Gitaxian Probe
Street Wraith

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kuma

I still think Body Snatcher is the best card for when something gets stuck in your hand. However, if we run it, we also need to add Cabal Therapy to sacrifice it. I'm not sure that's worth two slots in the deck, but if you're going to run two cards for when things get stuck in your hand, it should be these two because they work for Angel of Glory's Rise and Laboratory Maniac as well as Azami, Lady of Scrolls. Snapcaster Mage is a solid card in the late game, but he's miserable early on. He doesn't really help the turn 3-4 goldfish. That said, he's pretty amazing when things go wrong.

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I've been having more success running Frantic Search to get combo pieces out of my hand, since the untap part essentially makes it free to cast. I didn't mean to imply that Snapcaster Mage was being added specifically to help with excess combo pieces in hand, just that it coincidentally allows you to win the same turn you activate Druid even with Azami in hand. That makes for one less hurdle and lets you pitch her to Force or imprint her on Chrome Mox if necessary.. basically just fewer edge cases that cause problems. Snapcaster also finds his way into a lot of Intuition piles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kuma

Gaddock Teeg is pretty miserable because I can't win with him out, I have limited answers to him, and as a general they're guaranteed repeated access to him

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Teeg is actually the general of the deck that I have been testing against (one of the main reasons I really didn't like Snuff Out). The deck can still beat Teeg, you just have to tutor up a reanimation effect before activating Hermit or tutor then hardcast Laboratory Maniac. The deck that I tested against was loaded with GY hate and I found it easier to simply sidestep the GY entirely rather than try and tutor up multiple answers. I've been digging Demonic Consultation for this reason. It can completely blindside an opponent relying on stopping Hermit. It also gives you an out if you draw Maniac in your hand (sorta). Rather than try and discard him, and then find hermit... you can often just cast him and tutor for Consultation. This is obviously risky, but the threat of being able to do it can make it much more difficult for your opponents to play their hate correctly.

Street Wraith is my latest test card for when you have a mirage tutor effect (top of the deck) but need an answer the turn you plan to combo. Examples would be you have an active Druid but they have an active Knight of the Reliquary or Crop Rotation or Stifle. You can mirage tutor the answer, cycle to draw it, then proceed to win.

EDIT: Street Wraith is kinda underwhelming... I'm swapping it out to test Tainted Pact instead. This functions as yet another Demonic Consultation effect (if you want it to be of course) that also has a CC of 2 so you can also transmute tutor for it. Reliably tutoring with it takes a lot of practice i.e. if you haven't hit what you initially wanted, what cards can you afford to exile and how that changes what you're searching for ... though I'm guessing it will end up being a more versatile version of Consultation which means we can drop Wraith and Consultation for Pact to free up a deck slot. On another note, the Intuition pile of Snapcaster Mage, Unearth, and X instant or sorcery pretty much assures that your opponent will give you Snapcaster and thus a mechanism to Intuition tutor for any Instant/Sorcery in the deck.

- Lightning Greaves
- Pithing Needle
- Bloodghast
- Phyrexian Revoker
- Oxidize
- Treasured Find
- Snuff Out

+ Dregscape Zombie
+ Unearth
+ Nostalgic Dreams
+ Snapcaster Mage
+ Cyclonic Rift
+ Frantic Search
+ Gitaxian Probe

Reasons are mostly outlined in the preceding posts. This increases the blue count by four, which should help out Force of Will and Misdirection.

Updated first post.

Azami, Lady of Scrolls finally made the chopping block for me. I don't feel that the edge cases she covers are worth her taking up a useless slot in the deck. Angel recurs Sylvan Safekeeper to protect Maniac if they try to remove him in response to the Probe draw so her ability to give multiple card draws in response to spot removal is already covered. Also Snapcaster is cheap enough at 2 CC to cast if you draw him in hand that you can reasonably hardcast him even after activating Druid. Likewise Yawgmoth's Will is another card that feels unnecessary the more I play the deck. If you attempt to combo, and they counter Dread Return, just cast Memory's Journey and put Reanimate on top of your deck. If they had a counterspell at that point, they'd use it on the Memory's Journey so putting Yawgmoth's Will on the top for a reanimation attempt with counter backup vs. no counter backup is moot. If after the Reanimate attempt your opponent still has hate and can stop you which Will would circumvent somehow (maybe something like Stifle on the Angel trigger?), then I'm willing to accept that scenario as a loss in exchange for a freed deckslot. Against a deck running that much hate, I think an attrition strategy is more effective anyway.

I'm trying out Life // Death over Nostalgic Dreams since I never tutored for Dreams. Frantic Search is my goto discard target, and Life // Death is yet another reanimation effect. If you are attempting to get Hermit back with Dreams... why not just put him directly into play (or so my thought process goes)? Adding yet another reanimation effect made me want to test Entomb once again. Entomb enables several more variations for turn 3 wins. It also turns any reanimate spells in hand into copies of Hermit, which improves early turn consistency. The biggest hurdle I'd like to get around currently is being able to combo without requiring access to mana.

Street Wraith went back in because I couldn't think of anything better at the moment. He will probably be the first card removed the next time I want to test something.

EDIT: Ok, Street Wraith is out once again and I am testing Lotus Cobra instead. It plays especially nicely with the colorless mana sources in the deck and can sometimes help with turn 3 reanimated wins.