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This poll was quite interesting but, because of how it was phrased, it wasn't really useful for knowing if there is a real, practical interest in Vintage.
The purpose of this new poll is to help us figure out how many people actually want to talk about Vintage, as opposed to just thinking it's cool to have.
(This is a personal poll of mine and does not imply any official choice by the staff.)
I would.
This thread is an excellent idea and if there isn't enough interest to garner support for the creation of the sub forum I would, have the ability to, and framework in place to setup a Vintage forum (with actual licensed software, dedicated hosting, and mucho bandwidth). Just throwing that out there. I do hope we get enough votes though!
I also would support a vintage subforum, or if Ertai opened up his own, I would take advantage of that. The only reason Vintage is regarded as not a real format anymore is because people have buried their heads in the sand after the format collapsed and have been unwilling to rebuild it. There's been a resurgence of interest lately -- if that were supported and nurtured, it would be good for not only the format as a whole, but I would say for the website that hosted it. We need a replacement for the Mana Drain, badly.
Which is really unfortunate because the format is the best it's ever been; the meta is wide open and diverse. At least in the Boston area we've had a major resurgence. The main LGS has difficulty getting 6 people for weekly Legacy, we will be hitting 20 a week for Vintage very soon. My goal is to focus on player retention although unlike recent years it hasn't been much of an issue this time around (knock on wood).Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Do you allow proxies?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar
You going to be able to get them to turn out for GP Boston for side events, you think? I only have one piece of power (Jet) + Vault/Library, unfortunately, but if we could get a side event or two to fire I'd be a very happy man even if I couldn't run with full power.
Yes. I've actually gone out of my way to fully print and sleeve a meta (RUG Delver, Landstill, Espresso Stax, Martello Stax, UBr - UBg Time Vault Control, Drain Tendrils, Show and Oath, G/W etc) I hand these lists out to people who are typically on the fence about delving into the format. 90% of the time they play the list for a few weeks and either come back with something they have read up on and tuned themselves or start acquiring actual cards for the list I shipped them.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
For monthly events we only allow 10 proxy to provide some incentive for buying into the format, this typically attracts Legacy/older players who have a relatively decent card pool. Though I'm thinking of axing these and moving to either a 3 or 6 month larger event to help facilitate a larger prize pool/put less pressure on newer players to spend a large amount of money on an entry fee for a format they are unfamiliar with.
I also set up a Facebook group for the players I know within my immediate friends group to help gauge interest in weekly events and talk about articles etc. It's worth noting that I also push article content I find as well as old primers via email to a lot of the new players (typically the email is the first thing I ask for when I meet someone who's interested in playing).
Teach a man to fish and all that.
I find the main issue with Vintage is ignorance. There are a lot of preconceived misconceptions about the format that people fuel without any actual experience or historical evidence. The format itself has evolved quit a bit over the past 6 years to the point where I'd actual be comfortable calling it Legacy with P9 (generalization but you get the point). If you are short on patience Vintage isn't for you. Like anything in life it requires effort and time. In my experience people either stick with it or drop out quick; the ladder obviously possessing more interest than the former which clearly drives desire to excel. At the end of the day a lot of it revolves around being critical of your own play, this separates players from pros. In addition coming to the realization that variance happens across all formats is key. The only difference is the perceived notion of "fairness" i.e. getting blown out in Vintage looks a lot worse on paper when compared to Legacy, where I would argue the only difference between the two is that in Legacy you actually lost 4 turns ago. The best Vintage players I know focus on minimizing variance by design choices, meta gaming, and being intimately familiar with the list of their choice (stick with one deck). Outside of the card pool Vintage is really no different from any other format and it's fun as hell.
Dammit. I had to log in to vote. If there was a Vintage forum here to participate in, I might actually post more about Legacy as well (since I usually just lurk and can't be bothered to actually log in). I'm more of a Vintage player anyway and really only started playing Legacy because I couldn't find any one to play Vintage with in my area (luckily this has changed though).
Seeing as to how I am moving the the next couple of week and I looking at growing Vintage in the South (TX/LA/MS area) I think it would be good, because I know there is a Legacy community down there and anything that can help us bridge some players is certainly good. I would certainly post as much as I could, especially posting some tournament info, if I can manage to get something started up.
I am a 1.5 player only. And I do hate all other formats. But Vintage, it's some kind of even more elitist as Legacy. I would like to read about it. Maybe even love it. I do not think I would post anything but I'd really like a Vintage-Subforum to enable us 1.5-only-guys to get into a format even as great as Legacy.
Greetings
I'm not sure. I could probably wrangle a few people into going and doing something off the books for bragging rights. I typically go to off format GPs to support friends/buy and sell/shits and giggles. Problem is GP Boston is actually in Worcester so it depends on how non lazy people are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Yeah. I haven't decided if I'm even going to bother trying to play in the main event or not. I don't really want to, but I'll have 1, maybe 2 byes off planeswalker points, and that'll be the first GP after the new season, so I kind of feel like grinding a few rounds just for the multiplier wouldn't be a horrible idea, so that I'd have something in the books for a GP that I actually want to play in. But between Tedin being up there (Time Vault wants signed very badly) and the fact that TJ's side events are always awesome (loot case ftw), I'm definitely going to be making the trip up.
Shit, Mark and RK are going to be there... definitely making the trip.
Side events are sanctioned ... no proxies ... that being said ...Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeingersh
I believe my name was the only on the sign up sheet for a vintage side event @ GP Atlanta :frown:
When we all get motivated we've been able to get 8 or so out on Sunday for $5-5 proxy vintage here in Atlanta. Nobody has put a ton of effort into promoting it (or printing out entire proxied decks ...).
All that being said, I don't have much interest in posting anything other than tourney reports, general banter and smack talk on a vintage forum. I don't want to talk about decks, I don't want to share decks or anything. For vintage people should be brewing in dark rooms with hoods on.
It's hard to push vintage as a format when most people don't see it as a format for magic the gathering, but an alternate lifestyle choice.
That being said, I'd like to see a vintage format board on here. Thanks to the efforts of Ertai's Familiar and other Boston-area vintage diehards, I've really gotten into the format and I try to show up weekly. Once you get over the initial shock value of plays that can happen, it's really fun and deep. I'll be at GP Boston and I'll sling some vintage if an event fires and my deck is legal (~15 proxy).
I would post. It would definitely be nice to have somewhere to discuss Vintage. :cool:
Sounds like TMD material. Not good.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
I know, but they could run unsanctioned with some or all proxies allowed, as long as they set some kind of standard for proxies (unlikely).Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Was thinking the same thing, probably is the reason he plays complete trash lists as well. Pretty much do not want that attitude around and it has no place on any forum regardless of format.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
This is why I said off the books, there's usually plenty of table space.Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeingersh
What more do you want? You want in depth deck list discussion? Why? Vintage tourney reports are great fun, reflecting on new sets in a vintage light is also interesting (since some cards are gems in vintage and hot garbage in other formats).Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
Discussing vintage decks is lame. It takes the fun out of the format being the last bastion of degeneracy.
Shouldn't you be busy chasing solaran_x around the forum to shit on his alters?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar
If by trash you don't mean xeroxed TMD lists then sure. We also play a basically free bi-weekly 8 man, oh what fucking fun that would be if everyone copied the 3 BoM top 8 shop and dredge lists and pounded each other into repetitive fucking dust.
This fucking self righteous prick is exactly the reason not to have vintage forums.
Have you tried EDH? It seems better suited for what you are looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Have you tried TC decks? It seems better suited for what you are looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar
Morphling.De is a far superior site for Vintage top 8 and tournament report information.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
As far as what I'm looking for, I cannot fathom why you find a fair and balanced meta so offensive other than the fact that you must enjoy dream crushing new players. What I offer people is a window into Vintage and from that point they are allowed to diverge as far as they would like as long as they have fun.
What really isn't fun is trying to introduce people to a format they are entirely unfamiliar with using sub par lists so they fail on the two most important levels; understanding the intricacies of a cyclic meta and how some of the strongest cards in the game function in a pool of similarly powered cards. If you do it any other way people do not have fun, they rage quit, and they stop playing. You may enjoy your eight man format, for me I'm trying to do something bigger and better.
Vintage is something I've always been interested in, have the cards for, and seem to be quite curious as to how it plays but have never taken the time to get to know the format.
On that note, I feel as if the source had a subforum dedicated to vintage decks and playing the format, I might finally decide to pick up the format and learn to play it. From what I can tell, the format seems fairly diverse right now and this might be an interesting time to get involved.
2 cents.
I'm glad you are interested, feel free to shoot me some PM's if you ever have questions. It's worth noting that NY has a fantastic Vintage scene and the best out of North America.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chikenbok
OK, that's a fairer response then 'You suck at magic and bring trash'. I bring new decks to try at the basically free local 8 because basically it's the only place to try things out (I don't really play online). If we all brought xeroxed dredge and shops decks people would stop coming fairly quickly as these matches are fairly tedious and unexciting. Some of the pool of 8-10 who show up are bringing stock lists and it's a good way to gauge the viability of 'trash'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar
If your goal is getting people to play I can see why bringing morphling.de's finest 8 all proxied up is a fine idea.
I think a vintage subforum would be fun and interesting, but I think deck development forums in vintage are pretty much useless. TMDs are stale as a day old fart, probably due to a couple of factors, dwindling interest being one, and the desire to keep decks somewhat secret in the small cabalish world of competitive vintage (that still exists in this world). Perhaps some sticky posts describing the pillars of the format (most of which can be quickly lifted from the corners internet) to help new players, but that's about it.
You and many others overestimate the value of secrecy in Vintage and understate the value of group archetype and deck development. It's silly to think team secrecy is the foundation of TMD's failure, it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
The Vintage card pool is diverse however, the majority of win conditions fall into the same basic premises they have been falling into for the past 15 years. This has been the most busy Vintage year of my MTG career and new set releases, which typically designate a large amount of innovation, have not surprised me with unexpected outcomes even when taking into account a rather high number of Vintage quality cards being released. My point, with basic understanding of the format, one can show up to an event and have a general idea of what each archetype is trying to do regardless of new releases/recent innovation. Group archetype and deck development highlights the need for an excellent understanding of meta decision trees - where you need to be and when in regards to meta slots, sideboards, and even deck choices. This is very important to being successful in Vintage and any format for that matter.
Frankly, I feel it's that "small cabalish world" view that's keep vintage down. I agree that having a certain amount of secrecy with your "next big thing" is a good idea -- I tend not to post my latest lists on here before going to a legacy event. But that doesn't mean that I'm not still active in my thread, helping others, posting my lists after events and giving thoughts on what worked and didn't, etc. Let's be honest, with the exception of something like Bazaar and Gencon, there isn't enough vintage for people on a forum like this to actually worry about ruining their "tech." This could only help the format as a whole, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
That's not to say that we couldn't still have support for "TMD Content" of like tournament reports and so on...but I don't see why we can't have both. You two should stop butting heads and see if there's a way to compromise on behalf of the format's health. The hood+dark room approach hasn't been working out too well.
I'm part of the Boston scene that has made up a decent amount of the posts here, including one of my best friends: "Ertai's Familiar".
Our local Legacy scene was going rather strongly for quite a while, and has hit a slight snag with a few of our members (including myself), having life events making the weekly events a little more troublesome to get to. Despite this, our Vintage scene is vibrant and growing, largely due to the efforts of said "Ertai's Familiar".
I think that if there other burgeoning Vintage communities out there, a forum that lets each of our local groups cross pollinate ideas would benefit all involved. Whether that forum should be here or TMD is up for debate (as evidenced by the existence of this thread).
Here is some purely anecdotal evidence that here could be the place though: I went looking on TMD last week for inspiration on a few deck ideas, and after seeing the lack of updates on the forum in general, just went back to my notebook. This thread (and the Facebook posts by our local guys on this thread) actually got me to post here for the first time in months.
Having said all that; I am more of a lurker than a poster, due more to laziness than lack of opinions, so I voted for the second option. But who knows, maybe all this will kick my ass into actually writing out posts, it did once so far.
Yes.
In a hypothetical forum that included: Pimp Vintage Decks (no Bronies allowed), Decks & Technology, Tournaments & Reports, Cool Story Bro!, and State of the Format. Or something like that, I would post in each of those forums (likely more regularly than Legacy).
To clarify my vote, the answer is that if I do start playing Vintage, yes I will probably post frequently. One must first know something about the format before he opens his big dumb head to speak though.
Either way, I think the Source is the best place to have an intelligent and thorough breakdown of the various decks and their status within the format. I can appreciate the mystery aspect of Vintage, and I certainly don't have any preconceived notions of how "busted" or "fast" or "unfair" it can be. I play Legacy, and that's enough for me to realize that any truly healthy Eternal format rewards fresh design and tight play the most, and forums will only ever get you so far. That said, Vintage is THE degenerate format, so no amount of mystery or lacktherof is going to stop the best players from crushing the noobs at real tournaments. Mystery will not be lost.
i would post in a pimp thread fore sure
Use capitalization and punctuation please. Thanks. -zilla
What is there to talk about?
Isn't Vintage just Dredge/Shop/Ritual Storm/Blue goodstuff.dec?
Not being a hater, but I just don't see there being much to discuss. Plus, who wants to buy power? Buying duals and other legacy staples is ridiculous enough!
Can we get a 5 Color sub forum or a 100 card Highlander sub forum?
That sounds way more fun.
Where in NY? I'm assuming Upstate or Long Island?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar
Nothing in the city, I believe mostly in Vally Stream and Selden. Decent amount of events in NJ as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
Rainbow stairwell imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snap_Keep
Throwback!!!! Love me some Rainbow Stairwell.Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeingersh
@Ertai-Thank you for the info. I doubt I'll be going anytime soon but good to know in case I ever do.
I might have to check this vintage scene out in Boston. Where are these tournaments held?