Big Red (Mono-R Sneak Attack)

BIG RED

1. What is it?

Big Red is a mono-red sneak attack deck focused around mana-ramp, bomb-enablers and elements of a stompy deck. Where Big Red lacks the counterspells and flexibility of cards like Intuition and Show & Tell found in its cousins, it makes up for with the resilience of its manabase, the speed at which it can churn out a win and the one-sided-ness of its enablers.

2. Core Cards & Decklist

The List:


7 Mountain
2 Karakas
4 Sandstone Needle
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

1 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song

4 Sneak Attack
3 Through the Breach
3 Pyromancy

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Griselbrand
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

4 Inferno Titan
1 Reforge the Soul

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Blood Moon

Sideboard:

1 Through the Breach
1 Pyromancy
1 Pulverize
3 Defense Grid
3 Chaos Warp
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Faerie Macabre



Sneak Attack: is, as seen in SneakShow, a very efficient means of hurling huge monsters at your opponent.

Through the Breach: same as above, but it's splice ability can also be relevant, as you can also splice it onto another Through the Breach.

Pyromancy: turns your titantic creatures into direct damage, to either finish off an opponent when a breach has been used, a Sneak Attack disabled, or combat inhibited (Peacekeeper, Ensnaring Bridge).

Reforge the Soul: either as a Miracle or hardcast, RtS provides Big Red som mid-to-late game gas to finish off an opponent left at 5, or even as a means of disrupting an opponent's hand. It's flexibility and power warrant at least one slot.

Ramp (Sandstone Needle, Seething Song, Shimian Spirit Guide): All get around Chalice 0-2. Spirit Guide (and Petal, which serves as the "fifth copy") help create explosive starts with the Sol lands (City and Tomb), or help mountain hands get a Chalice @ 1 out.



Stompy: Chalice is almost always set at 1, so Mr. Blightsteel can do his thing through a Swords to Plowshares. Chalice also provides the fringe benefit of making the deck's Storm matchup better. Trinisphere and Blood Moon are other obvious choices, and can be added/subtracted/rearranged to suit the metagame.

Karakas: It hates naturally against other S&T decks, but also takes out Gaddock Teeg/Thalia long enough to break into a win. Karakas also allows us to save a creature before they're sacrificed to the delayed trigger of Sneak Attack and Through the Breach

"Titans": While there are multiple possible "bombs" to sneak into play, those who made this list have a reason behind them.

-Blightsteel gives an automatic kill if he connects, and Emrakul provides his suite of pluses.

-Griselbrand similarly offers raw card advantage which, without cantrips, the deck needs.

-Inferno Titan is hard cast, usually as a deterrent against tribal and weenie decks like Goblins, Death & Taxes and Maverick.

-Ulamog is the awkward child of the lot, but his cost actually makes him castable in the deck, and he can blow up a Humility or other problematic permanent on his way in.

In fact, aside from Griselbrand, each creature in Big Red can be cast of rituals and the ramp lands, making it more sustainable into the long game, even after its enablers are gone.


Sideboard

Leyline/Faerie Macabre: Though six hate pieces seems excessive, Iona, Shield of Emeria is the bane of this deck. Six yard hate pieces also makes the dredge matchup stellar.

Defense Grid: brought in against blue decks, it makes counterspells essentially impossible against you, and provides decent insurance against an inconvenient Terminus.

Chaos Warp: Acts a pseudo-vindicate, and can be used to "save" your Titan from exile (and has the potential to bring in another huge creature).

Pulverize: Used in random matchups, such as MUD or Affinity.

The extra Pyromancy and Through the Breach come in against control decks (where uncounterable threats are needed) and aggro decks (where more enablers are required) respectively.

3. & 4. Matchups/Tournaments Results

To be added at a later date


Thanks for reading!

Wurmcoil has popped up in the list a number of times. It competes with Inferno Titan since the two cards play different roles but fulfill a similar position.

Blightsteel Colossus is not very good, from my experience. Any blocker at all means you have to draw two to win. And for a two-card combo, that would be pretty bad if all you get is one creature destroyed on their side (like when they block). Wouldn't...

4 Emrakul
3 Ulamog
4 Griselbrand

...be a better creature package? I think so.

And the one Blood Moon looks like it should be TtB to me, especially game one.

oh wow, i just found this thread. i saw this/you're(?) list earlier this year from one of the jupiter events and i thought it was dope. i sleeved up a similar version, but never got a chance to play it. so it stayed on the shelf for months until about 2 months ago. i wanted a different deck to play at some scg events and said "fuck it" I'm gonna roll with it. i top'd 64 a couple events and almost nabbed a top 32.

if anyone replies/interested i'll post more.

i'll add that this deck has led to some of the funnest games of legacy i've ever played

I feel like Inferno Titan is sub par. This is my list. I feel like Hellcarver Demon can do a lot more for you than the titan. A lot of this feeling is probably just preference though.



http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=985849

have you resolved inferno titan in legacy? there is no better feeling. being able to hard cast the titan i think makes it a better choice over the demon.

I am the one who has had some success with this deck and been tuning it since ROE was released.

Yesterday I played a 65 person event at Jupiter games. I lost my first round and after 6 more rounds of swiss mountain climbing, I finished 6-1-1 IDing my last match into top 8. I lost in game three of the finals to T.E.S piloted by a jupiter regular.

This is my updated list. A few notes on card changes to follow.

The List:


7 Mountain
2 Karakas
3 Sandstone Needle
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

1 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
1 Grim Monolith

4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
2 Pyromancy

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Griselbrand
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Worldspine Wurm

3 Inferno Titan

4 defense grid
4 faithless looting

Sideboard:

1 inferno titan
1 aether flash
1 blood moon
3 Chaos Warp
4 Leyline of the Void
2 volcanic fallout
1 meekstone
1 pyroblast
1 grafdiggers cage

Changes:
Spells
Disruption switch from chalice of the void to defense grid. A turn one defense grid makes an opponent playout what they can turn one and two and then have to hold up 3+ mana in order to disrupt a hasty fatty. No aggro deck is going to swiftly kill me from their first two plays. This also gives me time to faithlessly loot away the duplicate combo pieces in my hand. In order to play faithless looting I had to eliminate the nombo of setting Chalices at 1. I want my turn one to be kill you, defense grid or faithless looting. This is what led me to eliminate a sandstone needle, and city of traitors. CIT and being sacrificed were both worse plays in the decks new shape. Trying to go off earlier also meant out one pyromancy, in one through the breach.

Creatures:
Blightsteel is no longer pulling his weight. He is cold to deathrite shamen, stoneforge, two tribal creatures, kotr, or goyf. All of which are happening before the end of turn 2 in those matchups. So in comes some new tech. Worldspine worm. He is almost impossible to deal with if he resolves all the way through. Multiple times opponents have been able to deal with either 2 of the tokens, or most of the damage, but three tramplers when you're at 5 overwhelms just about everyone. They're not legendary, but I really don't want more than 1 ever. So there are 2 and one griselbrand came in because lets face it, I always want 1. I don't play 4 because I never want two in my opening hand. Lastly one inferno titan moved to the board. He was mainly there to deal with gaddock teeg in and GSZ list. Without a chalice set on 1, he becomes very easily removable and a 6 mana investment in 3 damage is too much in legacy. And for anyone else working on this list. Infero titan is here because he's a CASTABLE creature. All their counter magic for your non creatures can't hit him.

Sideboard:
Mostly the same, down one grave hate because those decks aren't huge in the local meta. Grafdiggers cage helps against GSZ as well. Aetherflash is a bomb against any aggro/token deck. Unfortunately people side in enchantment hate against me, I'd like to find another house against goblins that cant be krosan gripped for this spot. The meekstone is great against RUG, and will keep KOTR from finding multiple wastelands.

On to the tournament. I didn't take any notes so this is all from memory and I apologize if I got some details wrong.

R1 goblins
G1 on the draw: mull to five, port into vile followed by wasteland while goblins pound my face. LOSE
G2 on the play: mull to five. Turn 1 aether flash. Double port keeps me from doing anything for maybe 4 turns. If I rip land or through the breach I win. Krosan grip is cast. Instant speed through the breach is on the top of my deck when I die. LOSE
0-1-0

Sad panda.

R2 goblins (yay or OMFG I QUIT DECK BUILDING)
G1 on the draw: Turn 2 your end step through the breach griselbrand, draw 14 and untap? WIN
G2 on the draw: Something really similar WIN

1-1-0

Ok, you can play another round before dropping

R3 Burn (could be worse, too bad I cut my 4 leyline of the sanctity this morning)
G1 on the draw: Goblin guide and faithless looting help me draw into a turn 2 sneak attack into griselbrand into something else fat. WIN
G2 on the draw: I manage to tap ancient tomb 3 times in order to turn 4 through the breach emrakul his board leaving me at 6 life. He rips mountain, bolt bolt. LOSE. I think I made a mistake here. I had worldspine wurm at the time of the breach. If I had put that in, It wouldn't have necessarily been better (I remember what was in his hand) cause him untapping mighta meant my death, but it woulda put him on a one turn clock to have the cards in hand.
G3: I sneak attack emrakul his board at three life. It's a race of me drawing a fatty or him drawing a mountain, WIN

2-1-0

Round three and nothing but mountains...weird day.

R4Cloudpost
G1 dont remember: I land a defense grid and he can't answer my turn 4 emrakul. Something follows it and I get there. WIN
G2 on the draw: I play a pyromancy and he has to spend some resources finding and preserving glacial chasm so I don't just kill him. A few turns go by and I make it to 7 land and play defense grid that he lets resolve and I cast through the breach for emrakul which he again can't answer because of defense grid. I finish him off before he can rebuild. WIN

3-1-0

First islands of the day, good thing you brought those defense grids.

R5Cloudpost (again? good thing the guy last round told me they're playing no counter magic main and only flusterstorm post board)
G1 on the draw: I know he has no counter magic game one so I'm feeling good knowing he'll probably start to set up on 3 and go for it on turn 4. He Show and tells on turn 2...crap! Forgot they switched to the show and tell plan, is he really going to put in emrakul against me? I put in pyromancy (knowing he's a good enough player that he wouldn't show and tell without an answer to whatever I put in, so I tried to take the back road) he puts in primeval titan. Wow, I feel dumb, shoulda seen that coming but I made the right choice. He grabs clacial chasm to prevent my direct damage and karakas to deal with my legends. He actually doesn't attack for two turns because he can't figure out why I put pyromancy into play and is playing safe. So two turns of this go by as he sets up his kill on top of his library. Probably around turn 5 he stops paying for glacial chasm. He's got the kill on top of his library set up by sesei's top. He needs to draw with top and attack with prime time fetching 2 lands. Instead, he attacks with prime time and as he's searching up his lands goes into super tilt realizing he just shuffled away his top deck. I need this because I can't actually kill him the following turn. He's at 9, has a karakas, an untapped land, and a 2/2 in play. I go 'main phase activate sneak attack, maintain priority activate sneak attack.' Confidently wait to see his tilting response. He lets them resolve one at a time. I put in worldspine wurm and emrakul. He knows he's fine with karakas and probably the crop rotation for maze or something in his hand. 'Move to combat phase?' wait. he tilts a little. 'Activate sneak attack?' wait. He tilts some more. Drop blightsteel, turn my board sideways and announce, "swing way more than lethal?' He angrily scoops us his cards forgetting that blightsteel is poison damage and his 2/2 blocker would put him at 9 poison, not 0 life...to kill me the following turn. Pretty much I gwt lucky that he threw the game away twice. WIN
G2 on the draw: Turn one he plays top. I know he has no force and is tapped out. A turn one worldspine wurm was too much to answer. WIN

4-1-0

Theres hope!

R6 MUD
G1 on the draw: His turn one is: Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key, Top, Untap Grim Monolith, Pass. I respond with, 'Mountain, Go'. He cast wurmcoil engine. Wurmcoil attacks while a port and wasteland keep me short on mana. LOSE
G2 on the play: He does a lot fast but it only ends up being mana stones and a grindstone. PaintersServant/Grindstone is REALLY bad against me. I over hear his friends talking about it being a transformation from his sideboard. I'm really confused. My emrakul is faster than his...plan. WIN
G3 on the draw: He didn't do much, made lots of mana and played a pair of grindstones...I'm still really confused. WIN

5-1-0

Sweet, don't get the pair down and draw in!

R7 Don't get paired down, get paired against one of my friends and we both ID into the top 8.
He was on esperblade, and we played for fun. Game one his one discard spell and one FOW weren't enough for my 3 sneak effects. The second game he let a blood moon resolve expecting to fetch a basic the following turn. Oops. A resolved blood moon is too much for esperblade.

Top 8 (I'm the 8...yay)

Quarter final Junk
G1 on the draw: His 2 thgouthsiezes are good but he has no pressure and I faithlessly loot out of it. WIN
G2 on the draw: His discard is followed by bob this time and he gets to draw cards. LOSE
G3 on the play: His discard again does a lot work. I stick a pyromancy. From fetching and thoughtsiezing he's down to 15 and knows I have worldspine wurm in my hand, Its a 15/15. He assumes it costs 15 so after I activate pyromancy he plows his bob to stay alive and then only receives 11 damage...the CMC of worlspine. He tilts a little but pyromancy finishes the job the following turn. WIN

Semi final: Helm Combo
G1 on the draw: At some point he catches me off guard by flipping a force of will to counterbalance to counter my through the breach. I end up getting there through the FOW he then draws. WIN
G2 on the draw: Defense grid keeps him from casting force when I go off a turn before he thought I could. WIN

Yay, I made it to the finals after losing round 1

Finals: T.E.S. (We both know the other has minimal disruption, its going to be a race)
G1 on the Draw: Turn 1 he ponders, I play a mountain, turn two he ponders twice. my turn 2 I play a sol land, cast 3 seething songs, into a through the breach for griselbrand floating 4 red. Draw 14 cards, hit 1 sneak attack, 1 spirit guide, and 1 15/15. WIN
G2 on he draw: My 7 kills him by turn 4, not good enough. I start mulliganing and it gets bad. I stop at 3 with 3 of the 5 combo pieces. He kills me turn two...I still would have killed him turn 4, don't think I mulliganed incorrectly.
G3 on the play: I mulligan to 6 and keep the nuts minus a fatty. He kills me on his turn 1. Griselbrand is on top of my deck. LOSE

Things to keep in mind while playing this deck:
Do some math. Faithless looting is card disadvantage. Mana rituals are card disadvantage. If you're not careful you will have no cards in hand and not enough lands in play to do anything.
This deck does broken things, don't be afraid to mulligan. It takes 5 cards to combo off. There are at least 5 of each.
Through the breach is an instant. It can be cast to put in a blocker and when cast on the opponents end step leaves the creature in play until your endstep. Drawing off griselbrand is SO much better when you get to untap before discarding.

Hope to see you all playing legacy in the upstate NY area sometime.

-Ithaca is Gorges

Holy shit this deck is awesome!

Would you consider running Wild Guess over Faithless Looting? This way, you can run Chalice either on the main or on the side.

siq report! defense grid and faithless looting fix a lot of the problems i encountered with the deck.

are 18 lands enough? how good/necessary are karakas?

lets try to keep this thread alive

Yes, let's! I was concerned for a while that no one would pick up on this idea.

@deck: I was there obviously, but congrats again! Have you considered Kozilek as another castable creature (over, say, one worldspine/Bsteel)? I figured the draw-four aspect would be the best part of that.

@Spooky: I feel like Hellcarver's too all or nothing. Sure, you might cast Emrakul and win, or they might just STP him in response to his trigger, milling you for six and hitting you with a one-side Apocalypse.

@all: hdeck12 is the real creator of this deck. I only posted this thread so that word could get out (and, in the preemptive hope that Show & Tell would be banned; thus far, no such luck.) Figured I should just add that disclaimer.

@Barbed, thanks for the props. Not sure how this was supposed to get s&t banned, but maybe it's best friend Sneak Attack.

@xdavisx, Maindecking defense grid fixes the swords to plowshares problem nearly as well as chalice. one might be better off in the board because they get pretty useless after the 2nd. Most of the time even the second is unnecessary.
I'd love to hear any fun stories you've had with this deck. I like to play decks that people are unprepared for, and thats where a lot of the fun in this deck come from. Doing ridiculous things when people don't even smell it coming.
So far through the breaching a griselbrand to block a lacky, drawing 21 and untapping has been one of my favorite moves.

Lands:
Yes, that is plenty. With five spirit guides and 5 seething song you will have plenty. I've considered cutting a karakas for a real card, they barely count as lands in this deck. My real reason for karakas is I refuse to play a deck that is hands down dead to a single card. Without karakas, that card is Iona. And with no disruption she is a real potential turn 2 slam in that matchup. It was necessary when Sneak/Show was running around and playing their own. Iona, Teag, Thalia, Karakas are the reasons for it. If you don't expect any of those cards, or them in low numbers then cut it. The ability to bounce your own legends is pretty sweet for on lookers but complete overkill in most situations.

Cards: (SUGGESTION PLEASE)
Someone else in the NY meta has been piloting this deck from what the grapevine tells me. I heard hes trying out chaos warp in the main. I like that idea and might have to rework some numbers to try those lines. Chaos warping my own extra lands in an emergency for the win sounds like FUN!
Wild guess.....This solves problems and creates new ones. Yes it solves the setting chalice at one problem. Yes it solves the Faithless looting being a POS draw spell because it's card disadvantage at best. The problems that arise are worse than the problems it solves. Double red is impossible to hit turn 1 without blowing a spirit guide, at which point your back into card disadvantage. Double red is hard enough as it is. Using a sandstone counter will probably not be worth it (if it hasn't been wasted, they don't live long, trust me). The real problem it raises is that is eliminates options. Discarding a card before seeing the new cards means you have to commit to a line of play before receiving the new information. It might be ok as a one of for a faithless. I would never want more than 1, but one might be good in the late game when you end up with duplicate combo pieces.

Happy Smashing
-Ithaca is Gorges

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hdeck12

Cards: (SUGGESTION PLEASE)
Someone else in the NY meta has been piloting this deck from what the grapevine tells me. I heard hes trying out chaos warp in the main. I like that idea and might have to rework some numbers to try those lines. Chaos warping my own extra lands in an emergency for the win sounds like FUN!
Wild guess.....This solves problems and creates new ones. Yes it solves the setting chalice at one problem. Yes it solves the Faithless looting being a POS draw spell because it's card disadvantage at best. The problems that arise are worse than the problems it solves. Double red is impossible to hit turn 1 without blowing a spirit guide, at which point your back into card disadvantage. Double red is hard enough as it is. Using a sandstone counter will probably not be worth it (if it hasn't been wasted, they don't live long, trust me). The real problem it raises is that is eliminates options. Discarding a card before seeing the new cards means you have to commit to a line of play before receiving the new information. It might be ok as a one of for a faithless. I would never want more than 1, but one might be good in the late game when you end up with duplicate combo pieces.

Happy Smashing
-Ithaca is Gorges

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This would (probably) be me.

I ran a R/b variant I call "Gambit Attack" that runs Stronghold Gambit, Sneak Attack and targeted discard, in addition to Chaos Warp. I managed to Chaos Warp into some crazy shit this past weekend. I didn't feel like finishing the event after my second loss, but the deck was loads of fun to play and with a few tweaks could be a major contender.

all this deck does is create amazing stories! here's a poorly done summary from some scg legacy event i did for a local play group.

ocotober-8
through a field of blue decks, i ended up 40th something. done told ya'll that i'd money with monored shitters.

4 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
3 Ulamog the Infinite Gyre
4 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Inferno Titan
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Sneak Attack
3 Through the Breach
2 Pyromancy
4 Seething Song
2 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the void
1 Lotus Petal

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Sandstone Needle
10 Mountain

Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Through the Breach
1 Jaya Ballard Task Mage
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
2 Pyroclasm

Playing this deck in a tournament setting, has been the most fun I've had playing legacy. Notable moments throughout the day.
- Hardcasting an Emakrul against a Miracles opponent.
- Blightsteeling for the win on turn 1/2 in multiple matches.
- Hardcasting Inferno Titan against U/R delver twice to kills his 2 flipped delvers, all while going to 1 life off ancient tomb.
-Tilting 3 opponents because our matches were done in less than 9 minutes.
- Smashing blue decks all day. Fuck your permission.

another fun story i like to tell is against goblins, my opponent goes...
turn 1- lackey.
turn 2- i play a mountain
turn 3- he attacks and drops siege gang commander
turn 4- i hard cast inferno titan nuking his lackey and siege-gang
turn 5- scoop

not much has changed from the list since i last played it but i found that i had the damnedest time against miracles and merfolk. i like the direction where you've taken it.

i'm not quite sold on the cutting of blightsteel. the dude is the real deal and won me many matches where i should have lost. i definitely like the reach griselbrand and worldspine can give > ulamog

about the "monored shitters" name, my friends gave me a lot of shit with this deck until i began smashing with it. they dubbed it "monored shitters" and the nickname stuck for us.

@Hollywood: Yes, you are the one someone mentioned. I'm pretty new to the source and wasn't sure how anonymous people chose to stay. Did you play it at jupiter this month? A turn one thoughtseize taking their answer to gambit sounds like a strong line more often than not. I've tried to figure out how to splash black so that I can hardcast griselbro. The look on peoples faces when I cast inferno titan is priceless. I can only imagine its about the same if you manage to tap BBBB. I'm interested in your list if you wanna share.

@xdavisx:hahahahaha, the miracles match was a F***ING nightmare before the change. However, when you let this deck go into the super late game (which miracles always did), weird things start to happen. One time A humility let me get to infinite land. I cast blightsteel, then chaos warped his humility...and then he terminused....and then I untapped and hardcast emrakul, WIN. Chaos warping a Jace at 13 loyalty in a game three once was friggin sweet. WIN.

Not having blightsteel or chalice has helped me win the control matches, but has taken a lot of my game against storm combo away. Not really sure how I feel about this. I don't really wanna be a combo deck that loses to other combo decks so I think the next step in mono red is to try and fit some 'stompy' pieces back in.

Dinner time
-Ithaca is Gorges

Any thoughts been giving to Stranglehold? It's probably one of my favorite cards in red, but obviously a bit slow.

blood moon in the main was really good for me, at worst it just baited out counters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Any thoughts been giving to Stranglehold? It's probably one of my favorite cards in red, but obviously a bit slow.

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It's a decent s/b card, but there are other cards I would rather have instead in my 15. It's really a meta call I think. Stranglehold stomps a few decks... but only a few. I think r.e.b. is just a much better option for the side.

Stranglehold...no. The only deck it REALLY punishes is cloudpost, which I I'm 4-0 against in matches over all. I think they can just swords him too. Bad players will side out their removal, but the good players keep it in as it's not dead at all against us, just the 4 emrakuls in our deck. It can hurt fetchlands, but thats what we have moons for. One mana less, and much harder to remove.

Stupid commander cards showing up out of nowhere....I really gotta start reading those set lists.

i attended GP indy this past weekend. i scrubbed out of the main event and on sunday signed up for some big 'super standard' event, i ALSO scrubbed out of that. there was another biggish legacy event at the same time as the standard one so i signed up late and took a first round loss. i tried out hdeck12's most current list with little changes due to card availability. i went 4-2 and like always had a blast playing it. here's a quick summary before i go into work.


7 Mountain
4 Sandstone Needle
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

1 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
1 Grim Monolith

4 Sneak Attack
3 Through the Breach
2 Pyromancy

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Griselbrand
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Worldspine Wurm

3 Inferno Titan

4 defense grid
4 faithless looting

Sideboard:

2 blightsteel colossus
1 through the breach
1 blood moon
1 Chaos Warp
4 Leyline of the Void
2 pyroclasm
2 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast

round 1 - loss

round 2 -STORM
game 1
turn 1 - he's on the play and sticks a delta into a underground sea and ponders.
turn 2- stick a blightsteel and crush

game 2
turn 1- he mulls to 6 and ponders again.
turn 2- i play a sandstone needle and pass.
turn 3- he plays cabal therapy and names sneak attack and whiffs.
turn 4- i draw the extra red source i need and connect with a blightsteel again.

round 3- enchantress
turn 1 - i play city of traitors into grim monolith and pass. i have only 1 red source in the form of simian spirit guide.
turn 2- he plays forest then utopia sprawl and passes
turn 3 - i draw a mountain cast sneak attack and drop emrakul then i flash him inferno titan and scoops.

game 2
turn 1- he plays forest into utopia sprawl and passes.
turn 2 - i play some sol land and pass.
turn 3 - he plays a land and enchantress presence and passes.
turn 4- i cast faithless looting and find a seething song and simian spirit guide. i then drop emrakul and he scoops.

round 4 goblins
game 1
turn 1 - he goes land into aether vial
turn 2 - i play a mountain and pass.
turn 3 - he ticks up vial, plays a land and passes.
turn 4- i drop emrakul and scoops.

game 2
i get waste landed out of the game and die.

game 3
turn 1 - i play a mountain and pass.
turn 2 - he plays mountain into vial.
turn 3 - i drop a blightsteel and win.

round 5 - RUG
wasnt much of game, i mulled both games with some bad draws and he had the force of wills and clutch krosan grip on a defense grid. i die.

round 6 - affinity
at this point everyone draws into top 8 and it's a bummer.

turn 1 - he pours his hand out and passes.
turn 2 - i drop emrakul and he scoops.

game 2
turn 1 - drops his hand out and passes.
turn 2 - i play a land and pass.
turn 3 - he draws 4 cards off thoughtcast pours more dudes on the board and hits for like 4.
turn 4 - i play another land and pass.
turn 5 - he attack me to single digits and passes.
turn 6 - he's tapped out and i drop a blightsteel and he dies.

i could have made top 8 if everyone didn't draw in, but dems the breaks. the top 8 had some solid players like ari lax, matt hoey, andrew shrout and gerry thompson. i woulda loved the opportunity to smash through em...except hoey. hoey would've crushed me, he helped playtest the shit out of this deck with me. i forgot to mention andrew was the RUG player i dropped a match to.

the deck was fine, idk how i feel about defense grid, it's good but i think REBs are fine out of the board, the deck usually has extra mana floating around to use. faithless looting was siq for me all day and in the testing i did against various other decks throughout the day. blood moon, chalice of the void should be considered again and i think ravenous trap is better than leyline and blightsteel should be at least a 3 of in the main IMO.

another card i feel deserves some talk is koth of the hammer out of the board against miracles, seeeems pretty dope in that matchup.

Sounds like a blast. I would have loved to hear about you crushing some pros. Jupiter has taught me they're people too but it's still a feather in the cap.

Things about card selection:
If I were to run this deck outside my local meta I would play at least three blightsteel. Good call. I can't play him anymore because hes done to much local damage...I mean poison.

I tried the defense grids because I seemed to only lose to couterspells. I think cutting one or two for maindeck moons is a good idea. It solves the port/wasteland problem. Helps against most combo and can win a game turn one on the play.

I disagree with you on ravenous trap as effective grave hate. Iona against reanimator is your biggest weakness. Ravenous trap is pretty bad against a good reanimator opponent, and still bad against a force of will or a turn two reanimation. Dredge players can get caught off guard but can also slow dredge you out if therapy gets going. By all means run what you think is best and report your results but I think I'll be sticking to leylines/faerie macabres/tormads crypt/relic of progenitus/ or grafdiggers cage.

Red blasts are great. If you want to go that route it's worked for me in the past. I just got sick of siding them in so often because of a heavy blue meta. Defense grid is more effective main deck. I suggest Pyroblasts though. One fun moment I had with this deck. SCG Buffalo against RUG. Dont remember the game but It ended with me pyroblasting his goyf (man I got a funny look for this play) so I could pyromancy him for the win.

Koth. I've been rolling this idea in my head for a week. Then I read the card today. It deserves a spot somewhere. Not sure if its main or side, but his acceleration is good, and in a long game your mountains can take over. Definitely worth a look. I've also been thinking about some big permanent sweeper. Maybe even "obliterate" to help with long games.

I'm not sure when the next event I'll play in is, but my tunes for now are along the lines of, -1 defense grid main, +1 moon main, 3 blightsteel, maybe down a wurm and....?, -1 faithless looting + 1 wild guess, - grim monolith +1 rite of flame. -something + 1 koth.

I am extremely fascinated by this deck.

What challenges does this deck face in matchups?
Does the deck lose to itself more than to its opponents?

Lost to itself....very rarely. Mana denial is a good line of attack against us. Seething song is one of the best casrd in your opener against anyone. Beats the soft counters from blue, and accelerates you past anything else. There are some 5th copies of things to ensure consistency. The lotus petal (free red), the monolith (2 mana ritual), and the ulamog (anihilator). There certainly have been times when I've mulliganed myself out of a game, but almost never game one. Usually if I know I need a certain card or sequence I will mulligan until I see it and variance exists.

@Koby (or anyone listening): If you're headed to GP denver and are thinking about this deck let me know and I can walk you through the matchups with more detail.

Your challenges are control. Any tribal matchup is pretty much a joke. Merfolk can sometimes get there with blue blast out of the board but its rare. Titan is a fish fry.

This deck is a turn three combo deck. If you're not the aggressor in nearly all your games, then you're playing it wrong. TES (storm combo) is the only match that you're on defense. There are enough mana sources that you can play around soft counters pretty easily and then you just have too many threats for there set of force of wills. And you straight up blank cards like spell snare and abrupt decay. Another sweet point is that you don't catch other combo hate. Most of it is for storm or graveyard strategies.

Tough matchups:
Reanimator: against a good opponent will be nearly impossible unless he draws bad. Luckily their numbers are super low thanks to dredge hate and deathrite shaman. I choose leyline of the void as my hate because is doesn't interact with either thoughtseize or force of will.
Sneak show: I tested against an extremely high level player and won about 15% of games (didn't really do matches). In sanctioned events I'm something like 20-2 against sneak show players (my losses being to that guy I tested against)....wtf for now.
Miracles: was pretty tough, but since the addition of maindeck defense grids it's gotten way easier. Deep dark little secret...your spirit guides get cast and start attacking asap in this matchup.
RUG: Game one is tough if they know what you're doing, but after board you look a lot better.

If they're not playing blue or black, you win. If they're playing black, you probably win. Pyromancy is really good against discard spells and if they don't have you on a clock you'll quickly draw out of any situation. You have things in slightly higher numbers than most other decks are prepared for. If they're playing blue then you usually cast titan and ride him to the win while they counter your sneak spells.

Goblins seem to be everywhere right now. This is an easy matchup but is over fast no matter who wins. I think some more maindeck moons is the correct meta choice right now which helps this matchup a lot. Through the breach is the star of this one being able to be cast through a port lock.

Give it a whirl in your local meta or an SCG. If you like attacking with big things, you'll have a blast, and very few will have any clue what you're doing. "FOW your sneak attack" "ok" "daze your through the breach" "ok" "spell pierce your inferno titan, wait, huh...WHA!?!"

-Hdeck12

i'm playing this in denver. lets hammer out a siq list

This is a great thread; mono-red sneak attack is a blast. The decklists you guys have posted are essentially state of the art Legacy-legal builds of Fujita's 2005 Extended Sneak Attack deck, and as such I think the decklist deserves discussion in this thread:

Creatures (14)
2 Crater Hellion
4 Dragon Tyrant
1 Serra Avatar
3 Symbiotic Wurm
4 Rorix Bladewing
Lands (18)
4 Mountain
3 City of Traitors
3 Crystal Vein
4 Dwarven Ruins
4 Sandstone Needle
Spells (28)
4 Chrome Mox
4 Sneak Attack
4 Blazing Shoal
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Through the Breach
4 Gamble
Sideboard
4 Defense Grid
1 Duplicant
3 Serra Avatar
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Final Fortune
1 Cave-In


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Fujita's creatures are dated but the fundamental technology and disruption hasn't changed much. The 2012 Legacy manabase is on the whole much better than the 2005 Extended manabase.

I think Pyromancy is a brilliant inclusion and a very strong reason to play this version of Sneak Attack. Especially with the huge mana costs on the guys we'd like to cheat in. Blazing Shoal is clearly no good when the best Sneak Attack creatures aren't red.

A question for those of you playing the deck: have you tried Chrome Mox or Gamble? Those stand out as the strongest cards from Fujita's list that nobody is talking about. If they're bad, then why are they bad?

i don't think the deck runs enough red cards to pitch to chrome mox. i wouldn't want to pitch pieces of the combo like seething song, sneak attack or through the breach. simian spirit guide does the same job but you know... can lay some beats if he really has to.

gamble seems dope but the random discard might keep us from going off the current/following turn. i feel faithless looting is just better in that slot.

This deck seems awesome to me - almost like a combo version of Dragon Stompy!

@adamliniscus: xdavis x is right on. In legacy you really can't be doing random things. The reason we get away with it with pyromancy is because A)we cast our rituals to activate pyromancy ensuring what is discarded is a nuke, or B)it doesn't matter whats discarded because any card in your hand kills Bob. I've seen some lists with gamble. It really is a gamble, and I don't want to tap a mountain, use up a card and then potentially discard the the card I just tutored up. This deck is too good for that. We don't have the red cards to pitch for chrome mox. Mox diaomond or mox opal (with a chalice/trinishphere build) would probably be more useful if useful at all.

Blazing shoal introduces an interesting play. I'm not opposed to considering it as a one of. I've been looking for a 1CC arcane spell to splice through the breach on. This one actually works being able to pitch spirit guide (=1CC) or even titan if really necessary. Downside is there needs to be a legal target in play to use it. Some other options for this are desperate ritual or glacial ray. The ritual being the weaker of the two because we can't actually use the mana to splice with.

@xdavisx: what are your thoughts on Agent of Stromgald or Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? You thought casting inferno titan was fun, this could be a whole new ball game.

-Hdeck

Agent of Stromgald and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth would be sweet but i think the inclusion of them would slow the deck down and make it a bit more inconsistent. i also don't like the idea of adding another wasteland target. i think it would be a whole new deck to build around along the lines of what hollywood was doing with discard and stronghold gambit.

@hdeck12 i'm heading out to denver this weekend and i'm looking for some pointers. here's a list i thought up with some of the card choices you've suggested.


4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 inferno titan
2 worldspine warm
2 griselbrand
3 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 simian spirit guide

4 seething song
4 sneak attack
4 through the breach
3 faithless looting
1 lotus petal
2 pyromancy
3 defense grid
1 grim monolith
1 bloodmoon

4 ancient tomb
4 sandstone needle
3 city of traitors
7 mountain

sideboard

3 koth of the hammer
2 pyroblast
1 bloodmoon
2 pyroclasm
4 leyline of the void
2 chaos warp
? obliterate or 3rd chaos warp


about the sideboard, koth is there for the easy swap out for inferno titans against miracles. i really like the idea of obliterate but is it better than another blood moon, chaos warp or a 4th blightsteel. i would like to squeeze the 4th blightsteel in the main but do you think it would make it to threat heavy?

@xdavisx: I've been working on a match ups write up for you. I should finish it tonight, don't really wanna post the whole thing on here since surprise is our best weapon, but check your notifications tomorrow, or tonight depending on your sleep habbits.

I love this deck. I played a similar list a few weeks ago making a 3-3 in a meta plenty of Jund/BUG/Team America. I have to say that IMHO the deck requires at least 2-3 blood moon main deck (or 2 main 1 side) and 4 Leyline of Sanctity ready to side in to stop the discard effects.
Other considerations:

- Why don't we cut 1xGrim Monolith for a basic Mountain to stabilize a little more the manabase?
- Aren't 15 beasts excessive? I think 12-13 are perfect for our purpose. We could use 2 slots for the second blood moon and the third pyromancy.
- Isn't Blightsteel Colossus a "risky creature"? In our dream it's very easy: song - breach/sneak - colussus - win. But in reality a single deathrite shaman with a 2 toughness it's enough to stop the infection. So, I'd prefer more copy of Worldspine Wurm at this rate..


@ xdavisx: Good luck and don't forget to report us!! We need to improve this beautiful deck!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crovax86

Other considerations:

- Aren't 15 beasts excessive? I think 12-13 are perfect for our purpose. We could use 2 slots for the second blood moon and the third pyromancy.
- Isn't Blightsteel Colossus a "risky creature"? In our dream it's very easy: song - breach/sneak - colussus - win. But in reality a single deathrite shaman with a 2 toughness it's enough to stop the infection. So, I'd prefer more copy of Worldspine Wurm at this rate..

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• Excluding SSG & Titan, I think 11-12 creatures is the right call. That's a generally accepted area among combo players for finding at least one of a certain card-type.
• Yes, and I said this a while ago, but everyone ignored it. My point was exactly the same as yours: if they have two or greater toughness untapped, you have to draw two Colossi to win, and your first one traded with only one creature. I'd rather have Emrakul, Grislebrand, Worldspine, Titan, Ulamog, and/or Woodfall Primus before the Colossus.

@Crovax Your meta is begging for moons. Sorry you showed up with the wrong plan. Titan is not a piece of the combo. He's our back up plan. Two turn clock (3 damage on cast, swing for 9 twice, firebreathing if you have to) off a solo creature that we don't even need to cheat in is too sweet. He's usually cast against tempo decks to beat spell pierce, Aggro decks to beat 3 x/1s and Maverick to kill Green Suns Zenith x=2.

This list very easily can cut Defense grid X3, Blightsteel X3 In order to add Blood Moon X2 and Magus of the moon X4. Thats the disruption package I was using the first time I took this competitive. You literally go turn one or two moon effect every game. I found myself drawing too many blanks and I just couldn't figure out how to mulligan. I bet there's a good number between 1 and 7 (3 blood 4 magus), but I have yet to make a plan for it. The reason I play one, is because two are literally useless if the first isn't dealt with, and I (almost) never have to decide if keeping a weak turn one moon hand will be good enough. Its not game over if they crack one fetch, if you're relying on moon, it can be. In a combo deck like this we just can't afford too many more dead cards. Main deck Moons was one of the inspirations for actually trying this as a real deck. Unfortunately I've managed to tune most of them out since their effect is much like stifle...always in the back of your opponents mind. Its real easy to sell that you're playing a moon effect to someone. They will bite and fetch basics like their life depends on it, cause it does, lets face it, a moon makes tundra pretty dumb.

@igri I agree. Blightsteel got a lot worse with the printing of the last set. The problem is we have no real way to interact with storm combo, Ad nauseum specifically. With Silence out of TES, Probe/Therapy out of ANT and infinite cantrips in each, we're just a turn slower every time. Yes, emrakul is great, yes griselbrand is great. Problem is, thats only 7 slots for one combo piece which you clearly know is not enough. Without a tutor like intuition or x-wish we go for a smooth blend of pieces. In comes Blightsteel for speed, and Worldspine for Depth. The numbers on both are a meta choice. Ulamog (annihilator #5): enough power for pyromancy, not enough game ending skills for a consistent target. In a combo match they still have enough life to ad nauseum after losing a land or two. In a control match, the annihilator 4 just isn't enough to clear the board after a few turns. Grisel: We just don't want 4. He's a means to an end, not an end. Having two in your opener is really like having 6 cards. Two emrakuls means game over in two sneak activations, two grisels means more than the 14 cards we already drew from the first? If they didn't do it, I wouldn't bet on the next 7. I play 3 titans main, 1 board. I never really want more than 1, and against most aggro decks, all we need is one. Primus. This one was considered upon initial construction. He's a sweet creature, but not by himself. He's not a fast enough clock, he's not castable (I know you don't think blightsteel is either, but legacy is all about options and being dynamic, sometimes it happens), he doesn't fit the "we only need two pyromancy activations to win" plan, and well, destroying two lands just hasn't been good enough in testing. Most decks can recover in 4 turns and without any real evasion he doesn't survive. If his ability was destroy target permanent, I'd play him. But everytime I find him, I'd rather destroy a creature. He could serve the same purpose as chaos warp out of the board. 3 mana instant speed vs comboing off in order to get rid of hate though. I'll take the 3 mana 1 card option, not 5 mana 2 card option. I think they're all fine targets but deserve their own builds with different support cards. Maybe gatecrash will make us happy...

And Grim Monolith is actually seething song number 5. That spot has gone back and fourth between City of traitors and Sandstone needle. For now I've settled on the monolith. It most likely won't be in the next iteration.

Board in Stronghold Gambit if you want to race storm/time spiral

http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Nem...old_Gambit.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Board in Stronghold Gambit if you want to race storn/time spiral

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basically a free Show and Tell. nice

T1 land, spirit guide, stronghold gambit emrakul is quiet powerful =] You can even board it against SNT decks as long as you reveal a cheaper creature than they have. Stronghold Gambit is asymmetric.

@hdeck12: Thank U for the hint, my fear in playing 7 moon effects is, as you said, see them more than necessary. But maybe lootings will help to "cycle" the unnecessary. Anyway I'll test this configuration in my Jund/Bug/TA meta and I'll let you know!

For what concerns creatures nowadays (excluding SSG and Titan) the best configuration IMHO is: 4x Emrakul, 4x Worldspine Wurm and 3x Griselbrand.
Ulamog's annihilator is not so effective, plus it can be easily blocked (it doesn't fly, it doesn't trample..) - ok, if we "ramp" 11 we can cast it but..how many times it can happen? Worldspine with a single attack gives us more assurances.

@bruizar: Stronghold Gambit could be a nice "side-in" vs some matchups - Miracle Control (usually they play only 2x Vendilion, and vs us side out the snares), ANT/TES, Spiral Tide, Enchantress..vs show and tell if U "gambit" inferno titan or Griselbrand (at worst we've both lost a creature with the difference that the opponent loss will be unplanned)..
I think that card deserves a test.

I'd even try them main if I could squeeze in gitaxian probes. If they are keeping creatures in hand to keep you from using stronghold gambit, you aren't getting much pressure most of the time. So you can build your mana and go for Sneak Attack or Through the Breach . If they don't keep it in hand, you steal the game.

I've been playing this recently with good luck.

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Inferno Titan
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Griselbrand

4 Seething Song
4 Through the Breach
3 Faithless Looting
3 Pyromancy

4 Sneak Attack

1 Lotus Petal
1 Grim Monolith
3 Defense Grid
8 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle

I played this recently and went 2-1 with it in our local tournament. Here were my thoughts (I didn't take any notes, so sorry they are slim).
- Won vs Maverick, Affinity, and lost to Dredge. Had to leave before the tournament was over.

Pyromancy- at 2 Pyromancy I was not drawing it. I was drawing it at 3.

Worldspine over Ulamog- I like having 4 Worldspine to turn into trampler tolkens over a sole Ulamog.

Why 2 Griselbrand instead of 3- I rarely wanted more than one in hand at any point. 2 in opening hand effectively acted as a mulligan for me.

Defense Grid at 3- I did not need to use them at all out of the 4 rounds in our local tournament. I previously was running 4, but found I'd rather have 3 Pyromancy.

Inferno Titan at 4- I was surprised that I hard casted him twice in one game, and hard casted him a total of 4 times over the night. One time it was a beautiful turn 2.

Last Note
- 3x Volcanic Fallout was unbelievable in killing Noble Hierarchs, Deathrite Shamans, miscellaneous aggro guys, and goblins. I ended up siding them in for Defense Grids almost all night, and would have run them Mainboard if I could have guessed the extent of the absence of Blue decks.


edited- I think I forgot to put Worldspine at 4 in my first post.